GT5 Demo vs SCC

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Ok, here it is. I'm not posting over in the Church of GT section - things have a tendency to get nasty over there if you rile up the True Believers (although I can't help stirring the pot a bit ;)).

My first impressions: very bland! :indiff:

Having got used to the graphics of Shift, the GT graphics don't seem as impressive as they used to. The sounds are also far less convincing than Shift's (although the car they chose isn't exactly an "exciting" car, I suppose). Finally, the sense of speed is very disappointing compared to Shift, in fact, even SCC's sense of speed is more impressive. The only thing that remains unequivocally best-in-class, is the car modelling & replays.

The physics? Well, they're GT physics slightly improved. A lot of detail there, but still somehow a little unsatisfying compared to FC/SCC. Most of this has to do with the lack of information from the FFB - the grip levels are largely communicated through experience & through the intensity of "tire squeal". The thing that stands out to me, is that at the end of the long Indianapolis straight, you can just slam on the brakes at the appropriate point & slide, perfectly balanced into the first corner. There's no real necessity to consider the weight-transfer of the car & no necessity to time your down-shifts.

I'm really not qualified to judge the "realism" of the physics, as I've never track-raced any car (let alone the collection of exotics available in these games). The physics in SCC may not be really "realistic", but they seem to re-create the feel of racing a car - the G-forces, weight-transfer & the rubber meeting-the-road, in a way that GT doesn't. I think it's pretty clear from the GT5 demo, that the full GT5 is going to feel very much the same as GT5P & that, like it or not, that feel is what we're going to get from the PS3's flagship racing-sim. Other than that, we're left with Eutechnyx's low-budget offerings & SMS's tantalizing, but hopelessly compromised effort. :indiff:
 
:lol: Well it looks like Mario was ALMOST correct! The man either read you like a book or you're just hopeless predictable.

But never mind that, what was your best time so far? :)

EDIT: Just for the record, I think it's a 'mild' improvement on Prologue. And keep in mind, it probably won't be what we finally get next year when GT5 is released. I can tell you there was a huge difference in car feel and FFB between the last beta candidate of SCC and the release version. And the same could happen with GT. I doubt we'll see any huge changes. But that said, I was impressed with what I saw. I ran about 15 laps in the stock 370 with a best time in the low 1:52s. The first 2 laps I was completely hopeless.

But I guess your point is taken. Is it as 'exciting' to play? No. But I still say, private lobbies, some great tracks, lag free on-line and live replay posting to YouTube and real time damage will make GT5 a real hit for me. And I'm looking forward to it.
 
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Having got used to the graphics of Shift, the GT graphics don't seem as impressive as they used to.

Well, although a bit subjective, competition had improved. Nontheless, to me GT graphics are by far the best I've ever seen in a racing game.

The sounds are also far less convincing than Shift's (although the car they chose isn't exactly an "exciting" car, I suppose).

This I agree with you. NFS:S had overhelming sounds. The GT5 demo is better than Prologue, but is definetively worse than Shift's.

Finally, the sense of speed is very disappointing compared to Shift, in fact, even SCC's sense of speed is more impressive. The only thing that remains unequivocally best-in-class, is the car modelling & replays.

I'm not sure about what you mean by "sense of speed"... the blurring from Shift?... I don't have any complaints about this on the demo...

The physics? Well, they're GT physics slightly improved. A lot of detail there, but still somehow a little unsatisfying compared to FC/SCC. Most of this has to do with the lack of information from the FFB - the grip levels are largely communicated through experience & through the intensity of "tire squeal". The thing that stands out to me, is that at the end of the long Indianapolis straight, you can just slam on the brakes at the appropriate point & slide, perfectly balanced into the first corner. There's no real necessity to consider the weight-transfer of the car & no necessity to time your down-shifts.

I'm with you that, compared to SCC, it doesn't give the same feedback from the road surface. I also agree that the car(s) seem a little bit too balanced while branking and specially cornering (braking under support on some wheels), and they are yet too oversteery, compared with SCC. But I found that handling have generally improved over Prologue, so I'm with Jeff: I hope the final product would come even better on this... and I'm looking forward to it!
 
hi. will gt5 is ok.. the realism of it is not real sorry, its not pad supportive i am ok on times just out side top 250 i will still try improve my times. i did a 1.40 tuned and 1.52 normal car.. see ya chiliiiii scc better...
 
Replay graphics are beautiful because the car modelling is so good, but I prefer the cockpit graphics of Shift & the track just seems to too "perfect" & bland.

The sound is puzzling. Why are the engine sounds just so much richer & more detailed in Shift? You would think that this is one thing that KY would want to get just right to go along with the perfect car modelling. Engine sounds in SCC aren't that accurate I would guess, but at least they've got a bit of "oomph!" to them.

Shift's sense of speed isn't just due to the blurring effect (which is a bit gimicky - I wouldn't expect KY to do that), it has something to do with "depth-of-field", or something technical like that. The cockpit view in SCC is also really "slow" (not the "closer to windscreen" one).

Braking remains over-simplified in the GT5 demo. I actually think Shift does a pretty good job on the braking - you need a very fine touch on the pedal to prevent the car from slewing around under braking. In fact, it's a bit odd that the braking is so tricky, given that the cornering grip in Shift is so exaggerated.

The times I set last night were:

1.51.851

1.39.257

My guess is I could take about a second off those times with a couple more hours, but the fastest times will end up being much faster than anything I can manage: probably mid 1.47 & mid 1.35.

As with Prologue, the TT is somewhat less satisfying than in SCC, because in GT you have to learn the exact brake points through trial & error & then carefully micro-manage them to maximize your speed. In SCC the hot laps have a more "organic" quality to them - once you know the basic brake points you can actual "feel" the car around each corner making adjustments on-the-fly to maximize your momentum around the track.
 
Well one big difference, IMO is that proper throttle management is much more important in GT5D. In SCC, recovery from an oversteer situation is much easier. And in Shift, hell, you don't have to lift at all. :lol:
 
The car modeling of GT, the movement of the car, the skills of the designers are unmachted by any other game I know.
All the (few) competitors on PS3 only offer 30fps - imho a big disadvantage.

I like the "standard" physics of GT - maybe I just got so used to them in the last 12 years.
The "pro" physics introduced with GT5P are - depending on the car - not easy to master with the gamepad but despite some flaws I liked them, too. Not having played GT5P for some time I think they got a bit more realistic with GT5 TT.

What I like in GT is how subtly the steering aids work. I mean the ones that can't be disabled if you play with a gamepad. Steering feels better than SCC or Forza. However I have a slight feeling that GT5 TT did go a step backwards regarding this. Or I need just more practice :).
 
Well, this is what I wrote in a chat-box to a bunch of friends:

As for myself, please disregard my time with the normal car, only a few laps before going to bed. Will improve that (I hope) and things will re-enter normality ;)

However ... I don't think I can squeeze more than a extra 0.5 from my tuned laptime

coming back to a GT game yesterday was interesting

I felt that the FFB was better than what I can remember from GT5P

Less linear

There are a few oddities in the physics that I can't really explain

But in general I feel like I'm driving a spongy car on a spongy track

It's very difficult for me to understand the transitions between grip and lack of it

But it's a good demo

So, this is it ... definitely better than GT5P in physics, FFB and sound but not really an exciting experience (keep in mind, however, the cars/track combo don't help).
 
Of course, the differences between FC/SCC & GT5P/D may be different & less noticeable with a pad.

In GT5P/D it feels as though the car wants to understeer until the point that the car slows down enough for the tires to regain grip. In FC/SCC the car will track on the tires until the sideway momentum overcomes the tracking & you start to lose grip & understeer. In FC/SCC you can feel when that is starting to happen & compensate. When the tracking kicks in again you have to watch out for the snap-oversteer. I don't know if that's entirely "realistic", but what is deeply satisfying in FC/SCC is the way the wheel "pushes" against the tires as you corner. In GT5P/D you don't really feel any of this - you know the understeer is finished when the squealing finally stops!
 
Of course, the differences between FC/SCC & GT5P/D may be different & less noticeable with a pad.

In GT5P/D it feels as though the car wants to understeer until the point that the car slows down enough for the tires to regain grip. In FC/SCC the car will track on the tires until the sideway momentum overcomes the tracking & you start to lose grip & understeer. In FC/SCC you can feel when that is starting to happen & compensate. When the tracking kicks in again you have to watch out for the snap-oversteer. I don't know if that's entirely "realistic", but what is deeply satisfying in FC/SCC is the way the wheel "pushes" against the tires as you corner. In GT5P/D you don't really feel any of this - you know the understeer is finished when the squealing finally stops!

This is the post I made over in the GT5 Demo physics thread and I think it echoes what you're saying:

I turned it up to 10 (the force feedback), but it still feels really light. Now i'm not disputing the realism of this, I understand that steering in a real car isn't heavy like a brick and shaky as it is in many games, but without a hydraulic racing rig, there's no other way to transmit the sense of grip and cornering forces than FFB through the wheel. In the stock car I was surprised at how the car could lose the back end without any real warning that it was about to happen. I came to know the limits by repetition rather than feel. It's hard to feel the load of the car settling, you almost have to think it through and just have an informed guess. I'm not saying there's no feeling of it at all, just not as much as I would expect.

Now hopefully you're about to tell me that there's something else I need to do in the options menu to make the FFB more meaty, but after having a quick glance I didn't see anything else. And why is the G25 still not listed as one of the specific race wheels to configure? I can tell when i'm driving that the core physics engine in this demo is probably more advanced than the one in Supercar Challenge, but the comparitively weak FFB means you experience it less.

Hopefully the FFB will be beefed up for the final release 👍

And it was then met with this response:

What is wrong with you? Have you driven a real car? Does it have strong FFB? ONLY old cars have strong FFB because of lack of any steering amplification. And secondly the G25 isn't that great in simulating a real wheel in the first place(the FFB technology is not perfect). I think G27 is a bit better, but still not there yet.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
:lol:

Here's my effort, addressing the Congregation of the Sacred Heart of Kazunori Yamauchi in the A day in the life of a professional Whinger..... thread:

Just who do these heretics whingers think they are. OK, I know this is supposed to be a forum, but that doesn't give them the right to come on here spouting their hateful views. If they don't think the GT5 demo is perfect in every way why don't they just leave & go to some other Congregation & let us, the true believers, worship our Dear Leader in peace.
 
:lol:

Here's my effort, addressing the Congregation of the Sacred Heart of Kazunori Yamauchi in the A day in the life of a professional Whinger..... thread:

:lol:

Do you remember this?


Well, I'm hoping that GT5 is a much better game than FC or SCC, but if it isn't you can count on the GT5 fanboys coming up with all kinds of reasons why KY doesn't want proper damage, or decent AI, or realistic races, or responsive FFB etc. etc. because that's not GT! :rolleyes:

Well... the arrogance is irrepressible, it seems...

:lol:

They tried to contain your arrogance Biggles, but they finally gave up after that most blasphemous of statements!

Have to say, the way some people get on in here is reminiscent of forums for football supporters, whereby if you criticise players or the manager of the club, you get absolutely molested for it.
 
Despite being a paddie which implicates being penalized playing GT5 i can't say i didn't enjoy it (despite of the car/track combo not being really much exciting...),but i've got a little bit disapointed with the overall handling of the game(when it cames to gt5 our expectations are so hight that is difficult they are met) and i can't get over the feeling that scc cars behaviour is more rewarding(i wont get in the realism/sim like discussion) for the player and that you can really feel(even on the pad)when the machine reaches it's limits and will oversteer rather than in gt5 demo where the limits have to be met by an educated guess(like S.A. well puts it)-hope there isn't one of those mujahieen gt5 fanatics listening or else i'll be living like saldman rushdie for the next few years:drool::yuck::banghead::banghead:LOOOOOL
 
Ok, here it is. I'm not posting over in the Church of GT section - things have a tendency to get nasty over there if you rile up the True Believers (although I can't help stirring the pot a bit ;)).

My first impressions: very bland! :indiff:

Having got used to the graphics of Shift, the GT graphics don't seem as impressive as they used to. The sounds are also far less convincing than Shift's (although the car they chose isn't exactly an "exciting" car, I suppose). Finally, the sense of speed is very disappointing compared to Shift, in fact, even SCC's sense of speed is more impressive. The only thing that remains unequivocally best-in-class, is the car modelling & replays.

The physics? Well, they're GT physics slightly improved. A lot of detail there, but still somehow a little unsatisfying compared to FC/SCC. Most of this has to do with the lack of information from the FFB - the grip levels are largely communicated through experience & through the intensity of "tire squeal". The thing that stands out to me, is that at the end of the long Indianapolis straight, you can just slam on the brakes at the appropriate point & slide, perfectly balanced into the first corner. There's no real necessity to consider the weight-transfer of the car & no necessity to time your down-shifts.

I'm really not qualified to judge the "realism" of the physics, as I've never track-raced any car (let alone the collection of exotics available in these games). The physics in SCC may not be really "realistic", but they seem to re-create the feel of racing a car - the G-forces, weight-transfer & the rubber meeting-the-road, in a way that GT doesn't. I think it's pretty clear from the GT5 demo, that the full GT5 is going to feel very much the same as GT5P & that, like it or not, that feel is what we're going to get from the PS3's flagship racing-sim. Other than that, we're left with Eutechnyx's low-budget offerings & SMS's tantalizing, but hopelessly compromised effort. :indiff:

Inch ALLAH will punish for this you herectic infidel:dopey::):lol::lol::lol::DLOOOOOL
 
From my perspective, as a six-axis user, all of the GT series feel more like racing a real car compared to SCC. The biggest difference between SCC and GT5-Demo is the steering - with the six-axis you have to think about how much you steer; too much and you understeer with great tyre noise. In SCC you just plant maximum steering and the 'steering-zones' take care of the rest.

They have sharpened up the steering response for six-axis in GT5D compared to Prologue. In Prologue, any car that could produce oversteer (in normal circumstances) was near impossible to be competitive in with the six-axis. The moment you lose the rear, you end up in a tank-slapper because of the terrible handicap placed on the steering. For GT5D, it's much better. When you hit opposite lock, you get it just about when you need it.

The big big big downside is the throttle. This is a problem with Prologue, and still has carried over into the Demo. There is an uneven throttle-output distribution on the analogue controller for throttle. Approximately, the top 25% of the physical throttle controls around 50% of the actual output. In other words, if one starts at zero throttle and increases to maximum at a constant rate, near the top the throttle suddenly jumps up rapidly. This is a huge problem for exiting corners. When exiting most corners, you need to be able to accurately hit between 60% - 90%. Personally I can't do this. I have to turn-in, immediately get on around 50% throttle, dare increase a bit more, and try to straight line exits a bit more than usual.

They know what they're doing with this. Wheel/Pedal users don't have this handicap (of course. Logitech wheel costs how much?). If you look at Yamauchi's own laps, you'll see on the exit of most corners, his throttle is between 70-90%. This gives anyone with pedals quite an advantage.

Also, why the hell can six-axis users not modify the traction-control setting for the Non-Tuned car? Wheel/Pedal users can. (Or at least, viewing the database info, they have zero traction)

I was going to make a new thread for SCC users' times, but can't be bothered to find somewhere to host the image file of my spreadsheet .pdf. Here are my current times:

Tuned: 1'37.131
Normal: 1'49.398
 
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If the wheel is so much of an advantage with GT5D, how come you're more than 2 secs faster than me with each car? :grumpy:

(Err ... that's a rhetorical question.)

From what you & others have said, it appears that there is some kind of "assist" for pad users in SCC. Wheel users have to constantly balance the steering & throttle of the car, a process that is made more difficult by the fact that there is an area of "slack" in the wheel (dead-zone), particularly evident when you quickly switch the wheel from one side to the other (going through a chicane). However, while struggling to balance the car there is constant information being given to you through the FFB, so that you can actually feel the tires slipping & regaining traction. That information is not there with GT5P/D. You learn the limits of traction more by trial & error & with the assistance of increasing or decreasing tire squeal.

As an example, in the GT5 demo the long right-hander leading to the straight requires you to accelerate as hard as you can while not losing too much traction to understeer. The only thing that allows you to judge this is trial & error & the increasing or decreasing tire squeal. In SCC, on a similar corner you would be able to feel, through the FFB, the weight of the car "leaning" over the tires & the tires starting to slip, which would allow you to modulate your throttle & steering appropriately.

Finally, as in previous incarnations of GT, the braking in GT5D seems to be totally "flat" & doesn't initiate any instability in the car. Similarly, gear shifting seems to have almost no effect on the car. I can say for sure, that whether or not it is actually more "realistic", driving in SCC with a wheel & H-shifter requires much more "active input" from the driver than does GT5D.

After another couple of hours (& a lot of teeth clenching):

1.50.692/ 1.38.838/ 3.29.530 combined, which left me 37th in Canada. Not overly impressive, but (for what it's worth) I appear to be the fastest G25 user in Canada at this point & probably the fastest (fake) Grandma. :cheers:
 
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If the wheel is so much of an advantage with GT5D, how come you're more than 2 secs faster than me with each car? :grumpy:

(Err ... that's a rhetorical question.)

Wheel users have to constantly balance the steering & throttle of the car, a process that is made more difficult by the fact that there is an area of "slack" in the wheel (dead-zone), particularly evident when you quickly switch the wheel from one side to the other (going through a chicane)

I think that you might be mistaken, you probably think about Ferrari Challenge because in Supercar, Dead zone is gone. Especially when you drive fast cars like SP 333, or F50 GT, those cars react almost immediately, while in Ferrari the fast cars were much slower in reacting to wheel movement. I did only two hours of Academy and didn't like it but i have to check it out if my wheel react the same way as in SCC.
 
Well, the deadzone is much less in SCC compared to FC but it's still there. The lower the FFB setting the less noticeable. With FFB set on high, you can still notice a clear on center deadzone.

It's been said many times but what we need is a game with:

- the graphic richness of GT5
- the FFB and lobby options of SCC
- the bump and surface feedback of F1:CE
- the AI of FC
- the braking feedback of Shift
- the best tracks and cars from all of the above

Not too much to ask for, is it? ;)
 
The AI of FC? You got to be kidding !!! :crazy:

Switch that for V8SS (or even F1:CE, I hear it has good AI) and we have an agreement 👍


btw, just an update, I spent 1 hour now with the normal car and lowered the time in that car by 1,2 secs (my estimate of 2 secs improvement maybe a bit too optimistic)

So, now I stand 19th in my country with:

Tuned - 1'38.161

Normal - 1'50.324
 
Well, the deadzone is much less in SCC compared to FC but it's still there. The lower the FFB setting the less noticeable. With FFB set on high, you can still notice a clear on center deadzone.

It's been said many times but what we need is a game with:

- the graphic richness of GT5
- the FFB and lobby options of SCC
- the bump and surface feedback of F1:CE
- the AI of FC
- the braking feedback of Shift
- the best tracks and cars from all of the above

Not too much to ask for, is it? ;)

No it isn't why can't we get it?????:indiff:
 
Tell me, is it just me or is that %$#@*&^%# Ghost Car making everybody else nuts too. I simply can't drive a clean lap when it's sticking itself ~ 0.10 in front of me--I can't see ANYTHING. It serves a purpose but in general, having it there, lap after lap has got to be the SINGLE worst idea that PD has ever had. ARGH! I'd rank it right up there with Paul Ricard.
 
LOL, Jeff, you sound like a guy I know that has his GTP ID unused for 6 months now but still on my friends list because I still hope one day he will be able to know how to recover the use of that PSN ID :lol:


Hint: press UP in the shifter ;)
 
The ghost car is both a blessing & a curse. Definitely, helps you analyze & improve your times, but also squeezes the joy out of the hot lapping with the chilling grip of pure, unadulterated, anal-retentive, obsessive-compulsive, eye-ball bulging, brain-numbing, merciless repetition.

The moment that ghost car starts creeping into your vision, you may as well forget about it Jeff. It's all over! Time to swallow your ambitions, own up to your incompetence, wipe the sweat from your brow & the tears from your eyes, & enveloped by the bitter stench of failure & humiliation, cut your losses ...

& hit the restart button ...


again! :banghead:


And try & remember - this is supposed to be fun!
 
LOL, Jeff, you sound like a guy I know that has his GTP ID unused for 6 months now but still on my friends list because I still hope one day he will be able to know how to recover the use of that PSN ID :lol:


Hint: press UP in the shifter ;)

IS there a way to shut it off or are you trying to tell me to drive faster? :)

EDIT: It wouldn't be so bad if the car was a lot more transparent. But I can barely see the road, my braking points or my turn in points when it's right in front of me. :ouch:
 
It shouldn't BE in front of you!

I thought you could turn it off in GT5P? You could always run a really slow la,p then upload the ghost to run against. It would stay out of your way, PLUS it would make you feel good every time you beat it!
 

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