Here's what I think: I think GT5 Prologue *does* have proper physics implemented with understeering situations. The problem is that a lot of people will be playing this game with a controller and it's simply impossible to navigate a car around a track with such an input device if all the physics elements would be in effect. People would most likely get into an understeering situation constantly because the controller stick doesn't allow for finegrained input. Would anyone dare driving your car in real life with a PS3 controller?? I think not.
I believe Polyphony tried to solve this problem by somehow maximizing the amount of steering input when the car is cruising at higher speeds. In effect letting the amount of steering be controlled by the speed of the car and not the steering input of the controller. I think Polyphony considers the controller as the main input device and us wheel users are suffering from this same limited behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if all they'd have to do is to simply remove this routine and everything would work as expected.
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Originally Posted by RC45
But be careful what you ask for - because I am getting the idea the majority of users/posters of this forum have little to no on-track experience, and are really "imagining" what certain aspects, feedbacks and impressions should be like... and are not basing their criticisms and requests on real life exposure.
You're right RC45. I've never been on a track. You are the expert and I'm not. I'm simply getting a feeling that something isn't right and am trying to translate that feeling here. I was actually hoping someone like you could provide us with proper insight! So are you saying that GT5 is properly simulating an understeering situation? Do real life cars behave the same way? Or are you saying we shouldn't be too critical and accept some shortcomings? Your experienced input is greatly appreciated.
Something else, RC45. Most of us unfortunately don't have the luxury of visiting a track. Are you going to be on a track soon? I think it would be seriously cool if you could do some understeering tests in real life and perhaps put some video's online.
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Der nachtblaue Geist Today, 7:12 PM Post #40
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Originally Posted by Tenacious D
I think the main problem with GT, and I think it's the bigger one, is that the grip envelope is a bit too mushy. If the tires, including the N class street tires, lost and regained grip more tangibly and distinctly, I think that would be a big help.
I think it's more than just the tires, though. Ever since GT3, the series' suspension modelling has been getting slower, mushier, and more vague. Hell, when I drove the V35 Skyline in GTHD:Concept, I could have sworn I was in a dinghy on the open sea, tossing and turning in the waves. The games appear to have simply lost any sense of sharp handling.
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Originally Posted by ebart
This is, however, the first GT for the PS3. The PS2 simply didn't have enough processing power to do real-time simulation calculations.
Sure it did. Richard Burns Rally and Enthusia Professional Racing are prime examples of this. In any case, it doesn't really matter anymore now that the latest Gran Turismo will be on the PS3.
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Originally Posted by RC45
Remember - again - the actual development team have tons of track time and vast experience driving a huge variety of cars in high speed situaiotns and are all car nuts - so for a moment why not imagine they know exactly what they want and how it should feel based on their first hand experience, and don't assume they are bunch of accountants in a boardroom.
Actually, when Polyphony Digital is working on a game, they tend to stay inside the office, living and sleeping there, not even driving between home and work (no, seriously). And I doubt any track testing sessions they've performed were done with the entire development team getting a chance behind the wheel. They probably have dedicated drivers so that any data they take is reasonably consistent.
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Originally Posted by RC45
I am not trying to be an arse here - just wondering exactly how many of the loudest "counter pointers" have actual experience to base their oppositions and requests on.
If everyone here commenting has multiple car track time then I am sorry for doubting anyone and will shutup and go sit in the corner... but I am guessing its a safe bet the minority have real high speed track time not the majority (and "high speed street driving" is NOT the same a race track time)
I will be pleasently surprised and suitably impressed if I am proven wrong - afetrall the more tarck enthusiasts the better
I drove two laps around the Nürburgring Nordschleife in 2005, participated in an autocross this last fall, and over the years have done plenty of performance driving of questionable legality. I drive a RWD car daily and year-round, and when it rains or snows I enjoy probing its oversteer-related handling limits in an empty and relatively safe place.
I base my perceptions of handling and driving physics on my real-world experience and physics discussions with knowledgable GTP members like Scaff, and also use that experience and those discussions to evaluate the areas in which Live for Speed (which I consider to be the closest thing to reality available) could be considered questionable. From that point, for convenience and safety, I often use Live for Speed as a benchmark against other driving sims for testing high-speed maneuvers that would be impractical to attempt to perform in real life.
However, my real-world experience is all I need to conclude that I have yet to play a Polyphony Digital game I consider reasonably "realistic." GT3 was the closest they've come, though I bet GT5P is significantly better.
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Originally Posted by ebart
Here's what I think: I think GT5 Prologue *does* have proper physics implemented with understeering situations. The problem is that a lot of people will be playing this game with a controller and it's simply impossible to navigate a car around a track with such an input device if all the physics elements would be in effect. People would most likely get into an understeering situation constantly because the controller stick doesn't allow for finegrained input. Would anyone dare driving your car in real life with a PS3 controller?? I think not.
I believe Polyphony tried to solve this problem by somehow maximizing the amount of steering input when the car is cruising at higher speeds. In effect letting the amount of steering be controlled by the speed of the car and not the steering input of the controller. I think Polyphony considers the controller as the main input device and us wheel users are suffering from this same limited behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if all they'd have to do is to simply remove this routine and everything would work as expected.
I've said it before and I'll say it again -- no matter what control input you use, the physics remain exactly the same. A physics engine does not have to be compromised by the need to cater to a controller-user, either -- the very thing you described in that second paragraph is what console sim developers use to make the controller usable. They have the game "second-guess" your inputs so that you can't go from full-lock to full-lock in a fraction of a second and you don't have to worry about moving the stick half way for pretty much every corner.
Don't worry about your experience with a wheel being tainted by the game being designed for a controller. That hasn't happened since GT3. Trust me, you're getting the fullest experience PD can give you.
As for the topic of understeer, again, I have yet to play GT5P, but in GT4 and GTHD, the problem isn't that understeer is excessive. The problem is that oversteer is inaccurate (and in the case of GT4, severely underpronounced). To put it another way, understeer is simulated just fine, but the game can't really simulate anything else, so it's all you get.
Has by fasr the most "realistic" handling of any of the GT games so far, i love it.
I agree completely, and probably the strongest NFS example is Carbon, which has one of the worst bastardizations of drifting physics I've ever seen, but is quite controllable if you force yourself to become accustomed to it (although I don't know why anyone would)...
