GT5's Game-Breaking Online Flaw (OP Updated: 11 Feb)

[dudeondacouch]

Anyone else care to run a few Lounge/Lobby races and check the replays for timing against a stopwatch?

 

[Sail IC]

Here is a piece of interesting data. I have only been in one race where this issue was very obvious. It was a league race, 15 drivers started, cape ring south. Some people got pissed and retired as their pace was way off. 12 drivers finished.

I did the stopwatch test on the replay, and measure the difference between the stopwatch. As people quit and left the room, the delta decreased dramatically.

Number of drivers....... Stopwatch /game clock difference
15 drivers .................. 4.2 sec
14 drivers .................. 1.7 sec
13 drivers .................. 0.3 sec
12 drivers .................. 0.1 sec

When 15 drivers, I measured on three different cars, and all came up with the same time difference.

I think I was one of the affected drivers but maybe not as bad as the others. I qualified on pole and after a few laps I was down to 7th. It was a one hour race, and as the issues was going way, my pace against the other improved and I finished the race in 3rd.

I also did the same test on two other replays, both with 14 drivers. At both races/replays, their was absloutely no delta between the stopwatch and the game clock.

So if you want to find out if your handicaped when racing online, do the stopclock test on the replay. Perhaps the delta between the stopwatch and the raceclock is exactly how much you lose on each lap.

 

[jon-]

Top work sail, very interesting.

We need to be able to reproduce this. In that replay what was the circuit / car combination?

 

[dudeondacouch]

Perhaps the delta between the stopwatch and the raceclock is exactly how much you lose on each lap.

I would almost bet on it.


It would be nice if a seemingly affected person and an unaffected person could both save the replay from one race, and compare in-race times and stopwatch times.

 

[Sail IC]

Top work sail, very interesting.

We need to be able to reproduce this. In that replay what was the circuit / car combination?

Thanks.

It was cape ring south, GT500. All cars premium except one.

In the two other races I checked where there were no issues, also GT500, 14 cars, all premium but one. Tracks where Daytona Road and Suzuka.

I just checked another race/replay. Same cars but 13 this time, Monaco with plenty of graphic load, but no delta between stopwatch/gameclock.

I might only been affected in one race, but I really like to find out what is causing this.

 

[nealcropper]

one race that you can recall, i really wanna know wats causing this to, anything I can do I will, hosting lobbys or participating.

 

[jon-]

I would almost bet on it.


It would be nice if a seemingly affected person and an unaffected person could both save the replay from one race, and compare in-race times and stopwatch times.

I think we have this from our championship. I'll get asking.

 

[CSLACR]

I think it was, as always, Hydro.

I know WRP hosts some too, IIRC Hydro was the one with DC issues in the past, before he got them sorted out?

I'm wondering if it's not a host/compatibility issue...Maybe when a connection between the host and others aren't getting along well it makes the difference.

I know the general consensus is in non-fixed host lounges there is no "host", but I've seen weird issues that were fixed by changing host, even in non-fixed host rooms, so I have to think the host still plays a part, possibly at least.

For example, R1600Turbo's rooms seem to commonly not have tire noise for anyone in the room, DrWatson had a room up, but everyone was having frame rate issues, we tried everything and finally changed rooms, with R1600 as the new host, the frame rate issues disappeared (which only about 1/2 the room had), but once we entered his room, nobody had any tire noise.
Both were non-fixed host public lobbies, but the host seemed to clearly have an effect, along with number of drivers.

 

[OwensRacing]

Knock on wood, never had the tire noise issue.

I do get frame lag in full rooms. My times maybe off. However race time I drive conservative.

This is interesting none the less.

 

[spyrrari]

Hmmm the plot thickens...lol

So the reason i have never encountered this problem could be my fast internet connection?

I have 60mb/10mb cable.

I have seen many other players lagging in races i've been in,and i know for a fact these guys always have problems loggin into a room,and or getting disconnected very often...

Never ever has anyone complained to me i was lagging and i've only been disconnected 2 or 3 times in the last year(host had slow internet?)

So could it be that if i would be host,and leading a race for example,the ones with slow connections are the first ,if not only ones ,to be affected ?...

I don't know,just came home from holidays and will go online tomorrow for some testing...will report here when i do and ask anyone to join me for some different tests!!


Spy.

 

[nasanu]

Here is a piece of interesting data. I have only been in one race where this issue was very obvious. It was a league race, 15 drivers started, cape ring south. Some people got pissed and retired as their pace was way off. 12 drivers finished.

I did the stopwatch test on the replay, and measure the difference between the stopwatch. As people quit and left the room, the delta decreased dramatically.

Number of drivers....... Stopwatch /game clock difference
15 drivers .................. 4.2 sec
14 drivers .................. 1.7 sec
13 drivers .................. 0.3 sec
12 drivers .................. 0.1 sec

When 15 drivers, I measured on three different cars, and all came up with the same time difference.

I think I was one of the affected drivers but maybe not as bad as the others. I qualified on pole and after a few laps I was down to 7th. It was a one hour race, and as the issues was going way, my pace against the other improved and I finished the race in 3rd.

I also did the same test on two other replays, both with 14 drivers. At both races/replays, their was absloutely no delta between the stopwatch and the game clock.

So if you want to find out if your handicaped when racing online, do the stopclock test on the replay. Perhaps the delta between the stopwatch and the raceclock is exactly how much you lose on each lap.

And how do you know this is not normal? Have you also tested races you think are fine?

 

[rsergio007]

No it absolutely does not. In all modern online games you interact with your environment in real time. Each user generates their own game world. You send details of what you did in your game world to the host and receive details of what others did in theirs. Their actions get recreated on your screen. With headshots and FPS games, this is due to the lag in receiving the data of other players movement. Your game world has them in one position, on their screen they had already moved and thus you missed the shot.

In racing games all your car inputs and track feedback are in real time also. Understeer or oversteer can not be explained by lag at all, since the data for this is not leaving your console. You only send and recieve movement data (send yours, receive theirs), that is it. If you are updating that data slower than other players (have a worse connection) then your car will appear jumpy to them as it will constantly correct its path as your console sends out data. It is not at all possible for this to effect the handling of a car.

Don't want to get into an argument but, connection quality definitely affects online experience. I think everybody who as played extensively online with people from around the world, with varied room quality, max participants, etc, agrees that the online feel is quite different from the offline feel (meaning while playing online is frequent to feel less control of the car and worse lap times).

My previous point was, even though all the game computing is done on the client side (i.e. each participant's PS3), the need for synching everybody's position but especially to compute combined events such as collisions and draft, does impact every player's online experience particularly people with worse connections.

So, lag becomes a big problem, not because you get other people jumping on your screen (when they lag), but because when you lag you lose lots of control of your car in a quite noticeable "perceived frame rate" drop. You can tell immediately this is happening because now your braking distance is longer, your car seems to over/understeer more, you can't hit apexes, you become clumsy in traffic bumping people unintentionally, etc.

The most obvious indication of this reality is that PD, to start with, has already created the room quality parameter, controlling the quantity of events being exchanged between participants. This is an upfront limitation parameter and people probably agree the higher the setting the smoother the experience.

I had never noticed the clock discrepancy issue thinking "there's no way that something that crucial is wrong" I've never checked it myself. But probably, as already stated, the delta is indeed the time people are losing.

 

[nasanu]

So, lag becomes a big problem, not because you get other people jumping on your screen (when they lag), but because when you lag you lose lots of control of your car in a quite noticeable "perceived frame rate" drop. You can tell immediately this is happening because now your braking distance is longer, your car seems to over/understeer more, you can't hit apexes, you become clumsy in traffic bumping people unintentionally, etc.

That bit is your imagination. It can not happen. The network has nothing at all to do with physics calculations.

 

[dudeondacouch]

The network has nothing at all to do with physics calculations.

It may not directly affect the calculations, but it certainly has something to do with the way they are handled and/or how often they are calculated. What other explanation could there be for the online/offline difference?

 

[CSLACR]

And how do you know this is not normal? Have you also tested races you think are fine?

So you believe a 4.2 second difference between actual time and GT5 clock time with 15 drivers is normal, quickly tapering to correct timing with a few less drivers...What?
It could be "normal" but it's certainly not correct is it? If it's not correct it's an issue isn't it?

That bit is your imagination. It can not happen. The network has nothing at all to do with physics calculations.

How do you know?

You certainly seem to "know" a lot on this subject, but you've done nothing in this thread but tell people either that they're wrong, imagining the problem, or that you "know" it's not this or that.
If you know something feel free to share.

 

[dsgerbc]

You certainly seem to "know" a lot on this subject, but you've done nothing in this thread but tell people either that they're wrong, imagining the problem, or that you "know" it's not this or that.

It may not directly affect the calculations,

Guys, don't feed the troll.

 

[CSLACR]

Guys, don't feed the troll.

To trap the trolls one must put food out.

 

[dudeondacouch]

Berzackly. I have nothing else to do while I cycle this stupid UCD.

 

[AllinWitJT]

So you believe a 4.2 second difference between actual time and GT5 clock time with 15 drivers is normal, quickly tapering to correct timing with a few less drivers...What?
It could be "normal" but it's certainly not correct is it? If it's not correct it's an issue isn't it?

How do you know?

You certainly seem to "know" a lot on this subject, but you've done nothing in this thread but tell people either that they're wrong, imagining the problem, or that you "know" it's not this or that.
If you know something feel free to share.

He also says he has never had the problem but fails to help by explaining lobby set up, driver count and so on. Lack of details basically.

I race exclusively online. On most days I will spend a few hours racing, been doing this since release. I've never noticed anything like this 'glitch'. My free run and race times match, in fact when I am pushing I usually lap within a 3.sec range. My lap times only vary if I make a mistake or if tyre wear is on.

In the many thousands of races I've completed I've never been 3-4 seconds off the pace in an equal car.

/QUOTE]

 

[nasanu]

So you believe a 4.2 second difference between actual time and GT5 clock time with 15 drivers is normal, quickly tapering to correct timing with a few less drivers...What?
It could be "normal" but it's certainly not correct is it? If it's not correct it's an issue isn't it?

Yes it is an issue, but how do you know it isn't totally unrelated? Have people been testing this since the game came out?

How do you know?

You certainly seem to "know" a lot on this subject, but you've done nothing in this thread but tell people either that they're wrong, imagining the problem, or that you "know" it's not this or that.
If you know something feel free to share.

Common sense should tell you that the physics can not be tied to the network data. Just go into the room with the highest ping host you can find. If there is not a second or so delay between your inputs and what is happening to your car then it is obvious you are wrong.

I don't understand how you think it all works. Games only send location data and very little else. Do you think the host PS3 is processing physics data for all players? Really how do you think it works?

You should want to get to the bottom of the issue, but instead you get upset when someone points out you are on the wrong track.

 

[dudeondacouch]

Do you think the host PS3 is processing physics data for all players? Really how do you think it works?

We are fully aware that one PS3 doesn't process all cars' data, but each PS3 also has to account for the location data for the other cars. There is no way for this to happen in realtime, so a certain amount of prediction must be implemented. When your PS3 has to wait for this data and/or deal with more than normal, there is every reason to believe it could interfere with normal physics modeling.

 

[nasanu]

there is every reason to believe it could interfere with normal physics modeling.

There is actually no reason to think that. What reason could there be to think that? The prediction is for other peoples cars, what does it have to do with yours?

He also says he has never had the problem but fails to help by explaining lobby set up, driver count and so on. Lack of details basically.

You expect details of many thousands of races? I have already stated that I race in all types of rooms (AIDS OFF, SRF OFF) with people from all over the world apart from Europe.

 

[OK8]

Offtopic: The tire noise issue has always been fixed for me by rejoining the room (though I guess you tried that).

 

[brettcee]

We can't let nasanu bog this down. Great for you, you don't have any problems, move along, start a thread about how smooth everything is for you. A lot of us are having problems and trying to work to gather some information to solve this. This the first I've seen where the bigger leagues with outstanding drivers are getting involved.

 

[CSLACR]

Yes it is an issue, but how do you know it isn't totally unrelated? Have people been testing this since the game came out?

The online physics are undoubtedly different then offline. There's not much for me to test there, they're clearly different, very few people claim they are not, and the evidence is overwhelming that they are wrong.

Common sense should tell you that the physics can not be tied to the network data. Just go into the room with the highest ping host you can find. If there is not a second or so delay between your inputs and what is happening to your car then it is obvious you are wrong.

I never said that they were.
A second or so? If we had a full second delay through the internet we couldn't race online, get serious.

I don't understand how you think it all works. Games only send location data and very little else. Do you think the host PS3 is processing physics data for all players? Really how do you think it works?

I don't know exactly how it works, I've heard different theories on it, and I'm just not sure. I do know my PS3 can calculate and run physics for all the cars in an offline race, I'd like to know why you find it so impossible then for a PS3 to run the physics for an online race.

In either case, I don't think it matters. If people are running 12 seconds slower a lap in races online at any point, something is happening. Either in their own PS3, a host's PS3, or a server.
One thing I am certain of is that lag is not the cause, I've lagged and run fantastic laps, and now that I have faster internet and no longer lag, my lap times haven't changed.

You should want to get to the bottom of the issue, but instead you get upset when someone points out you are on the wrong track.

I'm not upset, I'm annoyed with your blind, useless non-statements.
All you do is pop in and say, "no, it can't be this", with nothing behind it. No data, no facts, opinions, theories, just a blind "that's not it".
If that's the best you have to say, you clearly can't help in this topic, nobody doing proper testing in their right mind would listen to you.

In short - You need more then a random internet forum person saying "nu uh" to disprove something.💡

 

[dudeondacouch]

There is actually no reason to think that. What reason could there be to think that?

There IS a reason to think it. The reason is that there is a visible and measurable effect. In fact, it's the thing we've been discussing this ENTIRE thread.

The prediction is for other peoples cars, what does it have to do with yours?

Because your console has to know where all the other cars are so the collision detection will work.



How dense are you?

 

[AllinWitJT]

I'd be glad to join anyone for some test runs. My current league has gone through the wringer with this.

 

[CSLACR]

I'd be glad to join anyone for some test runs. My current league has gone through the wringer with this.

A date and time should be set up, mostly of people who have encountered the problem, to get full room or even two.
So many people on GTP, you'd think it'd be easy...

Of course if people really want to test this, they'll have to make an effort to show up, testing in a room of 6 isn't going to cut the cheese I'm afraid.

 

[AllinWitJT]

Everyone in my league experienced slow laps at two races in a row, Laguna and DRC. Top qualifiers were passed as if on comfort softs versus racing softs. All drivers were also 3-4 seconds off qualifying pace at both Laguna and DRC.

 

[nasanu]

Here's a copy (PAL) of the replay of this race.

To be found here on the forum.

I watched the replay again and timed the laps with my watch's stopwatch.
My conclusion here was that the racetimer in GT5 is incorrect.
Here are some compared laptimes all timed on lap 2 of the race.

Myself, GTP_Speedy6543 (DFGT)

• Racetimer: 1'53
• My stopwatch: 1'39

GTP_gooners (DS3)

• Racetimer: 1'37
• My stopwatch: 1'25

GTP_Hydro (DFGT)

• Racetimer: 1'51
• My stopwatch: 1'37

I now devided all times in GT5 by the real times to see how long one second is in this GT5 online race.
GTP_Speedy: 113sec/99sec = 1.141414sec
GTP_Gooners: 97sec/85sec = 1.141176sec
GTP_hydro: 111sec/97sec = 1.144329sec

Conclusion: GT5's in race seconds last for ~1.14 real life seconds.

So the timer is equally different for everyone.
However, when you will watch the PAL replay you will notice that the first driver, GTP_Gooners (DS3), is able to maintain higher speeds through the turns than anyone else on track. I think all other drivers where using a wheel. EDIT: GTP_MadMax86 is on DS3 too

So there must be something going on with the grip here.

I just watched this replay, but I did not come to the same conclusion. To address your last point first, yes Gooners can corner better, when everyone is in the same car then cornering speed is the only thing that determines the winner. Would he be making the time in a straight line? It is natural for cornering speed to decrease with a persons increase in lap time. Also he is harder than anyone else on his front tyres indicating that he is getting more grip out of them, thus he is faster. After just two laps there is a lot a wear while others back in the pack are still a little cold. It is his driving style, not a physics thing.

As for the time inaccuracy, it is very obvious as soon as the replay loads. I was quite surprised actually. But it is not the clock that is sped up, the whole replay looks that way to me. The cars move way to fast, plus the sound is high pitched.

Surly if the race was like this someone would have noticed? Didn't anyone mention how fast the clock was going? I bet not because I think it would have been running normally and its the reply that is corrupt.

EIDIT: watching that replay again... The speed is comical in places lol. There is NO WAY the actual race was like this and nobody noticed. Watch it for yourselves guys.