GT5's low-speed physics are still terrible.

  • Thread starter JTSnooks
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Well technically it can't happen because "real" physics has infinite resolution at infinite calculations per second.

But I think wht you mean is (for example) will games actually model the airfliow over a car and figure real liquid motion formulas to find air drag instead of just setting a drag variable and basing the effects off of this. For those who don't get why that would be important, when you just give a variable you loose the resukts of any of the related effects... Like when you drive close to a wall, the difference in air pressure on the wall side of you car may have effects on how the aero works etc...or the difference in effect from drafting off a larger vs smaller vehicle or vehicle with certain body shape and air distortion characteristics.

I think we are a long way off from seeing real physics calculations rather than just analogs. Look at advanced games like iracing and check out the data files for cars... When you look at the variable info for each car you see sinple terms like (lift) and (downforce) which mean they have precalculated these in generic conditions and the game is not figuring out what they are based on the cars shape and air flowing around it.

If iracing is doing it that way still I think we are very far off from models with enough data to actually calculate this off of and processors with enough power to do it on a reasonable scale.

And nor will you ever get to that point. You can bet that even simulators built by F1 teams don't do that in real time. What they would do, and what is done for aircraft, cars, etc is to perform CFD and/or wind tunnel testing to get lift and drag coefficients at various yaw, pitch (for aircraft) angles. Those bits of information are then fed into 6 DOF sims. At no point is a full CFD solution coupled into a kinematic solution.

Now given CFD or tunnel data, you can certainly alter the inputs into a 6 DOF simulation. It would be as simple as a lookup table. Example - take a car with another car ahead of it. You could define a table of relative positions of the 2 cars and the lift and drag coefficients. And likewise you can do this for a fixed boundary (e.g., a wall) nearby.

Now I would argue that drag can be assumed to be a 1-D lookup table. Given race speeds, there should be relatively small yaw angles. Even a 20 mph reported crosswind, at car level, is about 8-10 mph. For a car heading down the track at 100 mph, that's a fairly small yaw angle. And I would expect you can come up with a generic model for drafting based on infinite cylinders in series to represent the cars. Now you could argue that yaw becomes vitally important once the car gets loose. For example, as you spin out you've clearly gone away from a 0 degree yaw condition.

So yes, CFD is expensive computationally, but that's not what is needed. What is needed, and is quite cheap computationally is a better kinematic model.
 
Things such as burnouts are often one of the hardest things to put into a tyre model, there are certain extreme situations where a tyre model in even the best sims is not able to manage, even if the model under normal driving conditions is very accurate. This was a problem mentioned by many of the top simulation companies, those behind iRacing, Rfactor and NetKar have all mentioned such situations.


GT5 is a work in progress and it is obvious the physics model is that too, it is only a small part of a massive workload that is this game. iRacing is much more focused on the physics and they can do things one car at a time, yet they still have not perfected the tyre model. When it comes to power oversteer and drifting, GT5's tyre model is one of, if not "THE" best one out there, its not perfect but neither are any of the models in other racing games/sims.

As for the clutch.... the official wheel for this game up until and after the release does not have a clutch, this game was not designed around a wheel that uses a clutch, though i suspect it will be improved for the new thrustmaster.
 
You call having 340ft-lbs of torque at 2500rpm "peaky"? Trust me, the Camaro basically has a slightly larger version of the engine in my car and only weighs a little more. If you drop the clutch with even 50% throttle it'll spin the tires right up to redline all the way through the gear.

Also, CoolColJ, you bring up another point that I hadn't addressed. Their launching physics have always been terrible, although they were a bit more realistic in GT4. Stomping the throttle and burning the tires off is just about the slowest way off the line in real life, yet in GT5 it's the quickest. The Mini slalom license test was an excellent example. If you floored it and spun the tires off the line in real life, you'd be significantly slower than if you feathered the throttle/clutch to keep the tires on the limit of adhesion. In GT5, all feathering the throttle does is slow you down, another example of being completely unrealistic.

Again, I think the reason for this is just to make the game "easy" rather than accurate.

I think sadly one of pds highest priorities is keeping the playing field "fair" between wheel and pad users. This means where the pad has set backs (like buttons instead of long throw axises) the game puts in a handicap to help out, then they make sure the wheel is equally handicapped so that (unrealistic as it is) both produce similar results and its not a total slaughter fest for either.
 
To prove PD's outstanding job improving the low speed physics just drive a FR carr with a Limited Slip D..... and Donut the S** out of it :D
 
I think sadly one of pds highest priorities is keeping the playing field "fair" between wheel and pad users. This means where the pad has set backs (like buttons instead of long throw axises) the game puts in a handicap to help out, then they make sure the wheel is equally handicapped so that (unrealistic as it is) both produce similar results and its not a total slaughter fest for either.


When you look at the Vettel challenge, it's geared for precision control which the wheel provides. I've only got the pad and I'm absolutely horrid at the challenge, mind you I'm not the greatest pad user but I think I'm above average. In that respect I think they are pushing for people to go and get the wheels over the pad.

Not sure if it was meant for that, but I feel in my position the only way I'm going to beat that challenge is to either practice alot when I get to Bspec level 35, or get a wheel.
 
For the OP you can find all the disscussion about physics in the thread titled "So what's new Physics wise?"
 
And nor will you ever get to that point. You can bet that even simulators built by F1 teams don't do that in real time. What they would do, and what is done for aircraft, cars, etc is to perform CFD and/or wind tunnel testing to get lift and drag coefficients at various yaw, pitch (for aircraft) angles. Those bits of information are then fed into 6 DOF sims. At no point is a full CFD solution coupled into a kinematic solution.

Now given CFD or tunnel data, you can certainly alter the inputs into a 6 DOF simulation. It would be as simple as a lookup table. Example - take a car with another car ahead of it. You could define a table of relative positions of the 2 cars and the lift and drag coefficients. And likewise you can do this for a fixed boundary (e.g., a wall) nearby.

Now I would argue that drag can be assumed to be a 1-D lookup table. Given race speeds, there should be relatively small yaw angles. Even a 20 mph reported crosswind, at car level, is about 8-10 mph. For a car heading down the track at 100 mph, that's a fairly small yaw angle. And I would expect you can come up with a generic model for drafting based on infinite cylinders in series to represent the cars. Now you could argue that yaw becomes vitally important once the car gets loose. For example, as you spin out you've clearly gone away from a 0 degree yaw condition.

So yes, CFD is expensive computationally, but that's not what is needed. What is needed, and is quite cheap computationally is a better kinematic model.

Depends on how anal you want to get about your sim... using lookup tables means you have to have a lookup table for every situation you want to simulate.

So a basic lookup table is just air resistance at x speed.

Want to include drafting? Second table, including if a car is in front of you.

Want accurate drafting? Table must account for distance of car ahead of you.

Want more accurate drafting? Table must be made for each possible type of car that might be ahead of you and the air turbulance it creates.

Want to race more than two cars at once? A table must be made for every possible combination of cars and distances those cars might be ahead of you for as far as you want to calculate the draft out. Bear in mind each of those cars needs to be running lookups on themselves to figure out how they are driving so you essentially have a dynamic function to lookup a field in a lookup table depending on what another lookup table gives as a result. And that can gets exponentially more complex with each car you add to the race.

Want to include weather? You must now factor in what differeing (assumed static) weather conditions do to the air disruption of cars around you.

Want to do bump drafting? Add to that a table to lookup associated reduction in drag due to loss of a low pressure area behind your car when another car is close behind you... rinse and repeat all above steps for multiple cars behind you and weather.

That doesn't even account for what happens when a car is in front of you AND behind you... lookup table for every combination possible there as well...

At some point, if you want to be detailed enough, it will ultimately be better t use a very detailed model and a fluid motion simulation and then it all comes down to how accurate your fluid motion simulator is :)

And that's just air resistance...
 
Depends on how anal you want to get about your sim... using lookup tables means you have to have a lookup table for every situation you want to simulate.
I'd say you'd have a table for every condition you feel is important to replicating the fundamentals of the problem.

So a basic lookup table is just air resistance at x speed.
Unless Cd is showing a dependency on speed, it's no lookup. Just Fdrag=rho*Cd*A*speed^2/2, Cd, rho, A being fixed.

Want to include drafting? Second table, including if a car is in front of you.

Want accurate drafting? Table must account for distance of car ahead of you.
Again, can be a very simple empirically based expression using distance.

Want more accurate drafting? Table must be made for each possible type of car that might be ahead of you and the air turbulance it creates.

Want to race more than two cars at once? A table must be made for every possible combination of cars and distances those cars might be ahead of you for as far as you want to calculate the draft out. Bear in mind each of those cars needs to be running lookups on themselves to figure out how they are driving so you essentially have a dynamic function to lookup a field in a lookup table depending on what another lookup table gives as a result. And that can gets exponentially more complex with each car you add to the race.
Now you are getting in the noise. From a drafting perspective, it doesn't really matter much if you are second in line or last in line. The draft effect is just about the same.

Want to include weather? You must now factor in what differeing (assumed static) weather conditions do to the air disruption of cars around you.
The only dependencies on weather are air density (so altitude, pressure, temperature, and humidity, but then again air density would pretty much be constant) and wind. You are again getting in the noise.

Want to do bump drafting? Add to that a table to lookup associated reduction in drag due to loss of a low pressure area behind your car when another car is close behind you... rinse and repeat all above steps for multiple cars behind you and weather.
Which if I were writing the sim, lead car drag is not affected. Bump drafting involves the trailing car, which has less aerodynamic force to overcome, pushing the lead car. So you want to simulate it? You've now got a contact force you can apply. And I'd say if your sim is worth a salt, it already includes this. Push through the CG and there's no problem. Push significantly away from the centerline and the lead car inherits a yaw moment which can lead to instability. But wait, GTs physics have always been a bit deficient here so I guess they are one of the few games that can't do this...

That doesn't even account for what happens when a car is in front of you AND behind you... lookup table for every combination possible there as well...
Noise level...

At some point, if you want to be detailed enough, it will ultimately be better t use a very detailed model and a fluid motion simulation and then it all comes down to how accurate your fluid motion simulator is :)
As a practicing engineer, doing both analysis in the design phase as well as in-service issues, which can include failure investigations, I have to ask myself what am I after? What is important? How much fidelity do I need? Each problem is different, but typically cheap linear analysis can get a suitable answer in most situations. If I have to roll up my sleeves a bit, I have to decide what nonlinear phenomena to introduce to better correlate with Mother Nature. As a structural engineer/dynamicist, is it material nonlinear, contact modeling, geometric nonlinear displacements, transient rather than static solutions, strain rate effects? Each of those cost time, and each is a diminishing return.

I can tell you that some very complicated simulations are done in my field of work for little computational cost. Why? Because simplifying assumptions are made based on background work so that you don't have to solve fully coupled fluid-structural-heat transfer problems in a transient nature. Folks running trajectory analysis, which would be akin to the aerodynamic portion of a racing simulation, use data from CFD as inputs; they don't run CFD in-line in their sims. Folks building contact models for complex mechanical systems utilize simple models that solve faster than real-time rather than bringing in full 3D finite element models to get stiffness data. Thermal engineers really simplify their models unless they are doing radiation. Even things like convection, which is inherently a fluids problem, is simplified quite nicely with simple analysis involving convection coefficients (like, from a table!). Dynamicists may work with "stick" models with just a couple of degrees of freedom rather than the large models the stress guys make. Most of your modal mass is in a few modes so you don't need to know that that little piece of hardware rattles at 1500 Hz. It's just not important in the grand scheme.

Detailed sims are great for development. But when it comes to production, simplifications are made based on the knowledge gained during development. Can you get better simulations if you solve the fully integrated system of equations? Sure, as long as those models are validated. Would I expect a game developer to do that? Heck no. We don't do it for billion dollar aerospace hardware. Why not? Because the value added is not worth the additional cost in terms of schedule and people.

In my opinion, what GT needs help with from the aerodynamic perspective is drafting. The draft effect is too great in my opinion. I just shake my head in things like the karting events or the race with Vitz class cars. The AI hits a draft and go into warp speed.

Most of my issues with GT, and this goes back to the original Playstation release, is on the kinematic modeling and in particular contact modeling. That stuff has been pretty poor for the last decade. And that problem is not difficult to tackle more effectively.
 
I brought these points up before about GT5 prologue, in fact I think I might have made a thread about it. I'm disappointed to see these flaws are still present in the full game, I haven't had the ability to try them out for myself on GT5 yet, because I don't have the room for my g25. The clutch is pretty pointless in GT5 because I don't think there is even a single aspect of it that is realistic. I remember in GT5p if you kicked the clutch the car would get mysterious extra grip for a split second before the tyres would start to lose traction, and it ruined drifting in lower powered cars, does that still happen in GT5?
 
As far as shifting when on throttle or when the wheels are spinning, here's your way around it..........

And this is how he does it............


PD did the right thing removing the ability to flat shift from the game, although maybe they could have just removed H-Shifters from competitions ?
 
Thing is I drive a fwd car with a lowly 122 torque and if I was to nail my start at over 4000k rpm my front wheels will spun up and my car won't go anywhere. Especially if I'm on a slope. My car is in the game and I can dump the throttle at full bore and not experience the same thing.
 
I have definitely noticed the lack of feel at slow speeds. My mom had a mini Cooper s in real life and it was very zippy, lively, and fun to drive even at low speeds. In the game, the car seems to handle like a boat and has no feel below 70mph.

At first I thought that the game just portrayed the car inaccurately. I didn't understand why the car couldn't turn at such low speeds but when I looked at the speedo, I was going almost 50mph. Now knowing the speed, the car is behaving realistically.

The problem is that sensations of driving don't kick in until high speeds in the game but cars in real life provide feedback from 0.

To be fair in the real world if you drove Elise's, Zonda's and Ferrari's etc.. the Mini probably would feel like that afterwards, especially on the larger tracks of GT.

There are so many other factors in real life that make car's feel faster. Feeling a car lean, your own body being pushed into the side arms of the seats, watching the slower traffic you are going pass and the general caution you feel on public roads, also most people don't look far enough ahead when driving in real life. In the game your attention automatically extends as far as you can see, where as most people in real life look too closely ahead of them even as they increase their speed. I've been down country roads and had my passengers comment as to the speed I'm doing which is because they are focussing on the area immediately around the car seeing it zip pass, where as I'm looking a couple of hundred yards down the road, at which point 60 (I swarez) appears quite slow even if it is round bends.
 
I think one of the problems that affects low and high speed physics is the lack of inertia from the flywheel in most cars. For some odd reason most cars in GT5 (all GT's for that matter) feel like their flywheel is made out of paper. Even with little throttle, letting go the clutch at high revs in most cars will spin the wheels to a certain degree. In GT5 you will stall instead.
One car that feels like it has a heavy flywheel weirdly (and even more weirdly, a numb steering), is one that shouldn't, the Formula GT.

I have to say one thing that bothers me even more than the low speed physics flaws is the relatively high number of cars with the wrong weight and power, but mostly weight. In the Tuning Menu, before a race, some cars (Enzo, 599, Veyron...) have their dry weight listed while others (z06, zr1, mclaren f1) their curb weight. This results in inaccurate comparisons: the Enzo (dry) is significantly faster than the mclaren f1 (curb) in a straight line, mostly because of a the weight mistake, but I suspect there is something wrong with aero properties as well (with the f1).

Now back to low speed physics. If PD can overlook something as simple as dry vs curb weight, low speed physics issues could be neglected as well.
 
They still aren't perfect but to say they haven't improved is nonsense.

Take a reasonably powerful sports car on sports tyres, take traction control off, park the car up, accelerate hard and turn the wheel to do a doughnut, see what happens.

Now try the same on GT4, you will notice a rather profound difference. ;)
 
I don't see how removing flat shifting is a good thing, it only adds to the unrealism. Another thing i remember trying in GT5p was having the rx7 roll along in 1st gear and floor the throttle and it would start spinning wheels at 1 or 2 thousand rpm, something the real car does not do. I think the reason for this is to make the game easier to control, because I remember driving lfs with a pad and at low speed the car needs some very precise control to stop it from going sideways even in a straight line. GT5 would need to be like this too if it were to be realistic and i think it would be too much for the average user to handle, why they didn't just have traction control take care of this I don't know.
 
Congrats, 46 replies because you posted an outrageous and false claim in the title. Without it this topic would have fell to the bottom and died long ago.

I suggest everyone not click in this and "WORST AI EVA" type threads.
 
I would have replied anyway.
Low speed physics in GT5 are faulty as even I pointed out in another thread back ago.
 
Congrats, 46 replies because you posted an outrageous and false claim in the title. Without it this topic would have fell to the bottom and died long ago.

I suggest everyone not click in this and "WORST AI EVA" type threads.

I don't think it's that outrageous, as there is some questionable elements from GT4 still present, but now that I look at the thread title again, it is false to say it has not improved. I was mistakenly comparing it to GT5p, but I think my points are still valid.
 
They still aren't perfect but to say they haven't improved is nonsense.

Take a reasonably powerful sports car on sports tyres, take traction control off, park the car up, accelerate hard and turn the wheel to do a doughnut, see what happens.

Now try the same on GT4, you will notice a rather profound difference. ;)

True, I had forgotten how terrible GT4's physics were (it's been about 4 years since I've played it). Mainly what brought it to mind was that I remembered trying to do a standing burnout in GT4 and GT5 behaves exactly the same way.

Congrats, 46 replies because you posted an outrageous and false claim in the title. Without it this topic would have fell to the bottom and died long ago.

I suggest everyone not click in this and "WORST AI EVA" type threads.

I'm not sure, but it sounds almost like you're upset because someone else's thread got attention? If so, that's pretty lame.

You're right though, the thread title is a little extreme, but I was pretty upset at the time. Perhaps it should be titled "GT5's low-speed physics are terrible, many problems from GT4 still persist". But that would be a bit long.
 
No you're the same type who posts what looks like female nudity in youtube thumbnails to get thousands of view of your crappy video and in this case your post

If you think low speed physics are only abou how realistic you can peel out may I suggest you go find an obscure $3 used PC drag racing sim on ebay?
 
No you're the same type who posts what looks like female nudity in youtube thumbnails to get thousands of view of your crappy video and in this case your post

If you think low speed physics are only abou how realistic you can peel out may I suggest you go find an obscure $3 used PC drag racing sim on ebay?

I changed the title, you can unwad your panties now ;)

It's not so much that I'm upset I can't do a burnout, it's that not being able to do a burnout is an indicator that the tire traction and clutch physics are horribly done and do not simulate real life in any way. They work fine for racing, but as people are so apt to point out, the game is billed as "the real driving simulator", not "the real racing simulator". Not being able to simulate something so simple when the problem has existed for at least 10 years (and was plenty complained about then) is mind-numbingly frustrating. One of the reasons I love GT games so much is to be able to try out new and different cars that I won't get the chance to drive in real life, and to try to drive them the way I'd drive them in real life. Well, one of the things I'd do in real life is hard launches from a stop, and GT5 doesn't even begin to try to simulate how a car truly responds to throttle/clutch inputs from a stop. Stomping the gas and burning the tires off is NOT a quick way off the line, but it's the quickest way in GT5. Sad, and annoying.
 
One thing that has bothered me in every GT game, including GT5, is that you can just rev the car full throttle and dump the clutch and you'd would be fast most of the time, off the line.

In every license test that had a standing start, with ghost, it was always faster to just full throttle and dump the clutch off the line. Depsite the wheel spin, you were always faster than feathering the throttle and trying to launch properly. Especially in FWD cars.

Torque steer still isn't modelled in FWD cars as well. All you get is even wheel spin on both sides of the car. FWD cars feel the same way as they have since the first GT game.
And in real life FWD cars can be prone to lift off oversteer, but you can't do it in GT5


I am with you on full throttle launches being faster, but can not agree on FWD cars having even wheelspin. My FWD cars quite regularly get uneven heat under acceleration with one side spinning up more than another.

And just the other day I was going a shuffle race on the ring where I was placed in a civic. It was really fun because I was getting a fair bit of oversteer, lift off and in sweepers.

Oh I forgot about my Civic Type R.. I have been looking for a different tune because the overseer is killing me online. I thought the tune was good around Tsukuba, but damn take it anywhere else and all my speed gets scrubbed off when I have to correct the tail swinging about. It needs a much larger wing.


Thing is I drive a fwd car with a lowly 122 torque and if I was to nail my start at over 4000k rpm my front wheels will spun up and my car won't go anywhere. Especially if I'm on a slope. My car is in the game and I can dump the throttle at full bore and not experience the same thing.

What is your car? I'll test your claim.
 
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Thing is I drive a fwd car with a lowly 122 torque and if I was to nail my start at over 4000k rpm my front wheels will spun up and my car won't go anywhere. Especially if I'm on a slope. My car is in the game and I can dump the throttle at full bore and not experience the same thing.


Stocko B16 civic, approx 122 torks. Spins up. Not much, but smokes and spins. Front tyres go red..

slight incline, trial mountain, all assists off...

 
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Another smaller issue I've noticed is how the outside tire spins up and turns red before the inside tire. I've never driven a car that smokes the outside tire before the inside one, even with a strong LSD. It doesn't seem to have much of a detrimental effect on the car behavior, it's more of just an oddity. I'm guessing it's due to how the game calculates the tire's heat. More weight over the outside tire = more force = less grip = more slippage. In real life that's not quite the case, especially when accelerating.
 
That IS an oddity I've been looking at. Couldn't quite put my finger on why it had been bothering me until you mentioned it. Might have a go at it tomorrow to look.

RE: Burnouts: Depends on the car, depends on the tires. I have no problem getting a Yaris to spin them up.

Regarding the fastest way to launch. It varies greatly from car to car. But whenever you have more grip than power (low-powered cars, AWD cars) and you aren't on a dragstrip, yes, you can actually get off the line quickest by simply dumping the clutch and revving the engine to high heavens.

And yes, I've done this in both a Yaris and a MINI. The Yaris in particular benefitted in no way from a clutch-slipping launch, and was happiest launched at 5000-6000 rpm.

Not qualified to comment on the Camaro... I haven't driven one in anger... but I've seen some spectacular bogs in a brand new STI, even in first gear. And that has a shedload of torque.

But, I agree... one of the sore points of the game is the lack of that upsetting shot of torque when you bang into the next gear... Turismo has always smoothed out the gear transition by rev-matching a little too well.

Low speed physics still aren't perfect, but they're a heck of a lot better than GT4. What I'm really disappointed in is the tire modelling.
 
I image that grip levels are in someway related to the velocity of the car but at low speeds as velocity those equation would give strange answers as it would be aproaching 0 or stretching to infinitiy. Which would be funny to play on.

Low speed physics is always going to be a comparise of physics that feels weird, but only a few will notice or care
 
My car is the 2zz corolla from the ucd. Now to get the car to move on that incline did you have to let off the gas a bit or hold on and it just hooked up?
 
I've written at length about this elsewhere but let me summarise: there's no way in hell a games console will ever (repeat: ever) accurate reality enough that would allow you to call it an engineering simulation (i.e. one that can be used for real design work).

All the physics in GT5 are severe approximations with degrees of freedom removed from virtually every equation they can get away with (a car is fundamentally a 6DOF system but then you have unsprung masses etc).

A simulator like those used to actually design cars (which I've got a fair bit of experience with) can take hours, if not more, to produce just a few seconds of response to a disturbance or generic input. So to expect a game to do this at say 30Hz is just unfeasible.

The reason they'll use multiple physics models for different speeds is that at various speeds different parameters are more important in the overall dynamics of the vehicle so they'll focus on them at each chosen interval and remove all the ones that don't really matter.

It's not like these games developers don't understand physics (they have, afterall, automotive and mechanical engineers to work with) it's the fact that there's just not enough processing power to do everything (by a long shot) so they've got to prioritise...some times they get it wrong.
 
I like how cars from the the 60's and even 40's bounce off of a rev limiter. And I'm not an expert... but usually a chip or tuner will rid the vehicle of an electronic rev limiter.
 
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