GT5's low-speed physics are still terrible.

[eight6er]

It would be nice if I could assign the clutch to my L2 trigger, so I could at least try to get a good take off. With the DS3 you have to pretty much give it full throttle, before the clutch will engage and then it's just wheel spin and if you leave off a bit to try and regain some grip you end up having slower acceleration than if you just kept it full throttle with the wheels spinning. The only thing that can make it easier sometimes is staring in second gear.

Edit: Did engines from the 40's and 60's even have rev limiters?

 

[Scotracer]

I like how cars from the the 60's and even 40's bounce off of a rev limiter. And I'm not an expert... but usually a chip or tuner will rid the vehicle of an electronic rev limiter.

Even with a remapped engine you still want some form of soft limiter in there so the drivers don't just blow up their engines by missing a shift or going over a crest.

My remapped Integra Type R DC2's redline was raised from 8400rpm to 8800rpm.

 

[Rzeractor]

My car is the 2zz corolla from the ucd. Now to get the car to move on that incline did you have to let off the gas a bit or hold on and it just hooked up?

Flat sticked ;P

 

[niky]

I like how cars from the the 60's and even 40's bounce off of a rev limiter. And I'm not an expert... but usually a chip or tuner will rid the vehicle of an electronic rev limiter.

As Scotracer notes: when remapping a car, you will want to keep a limiter in to keep the engine from blowing up.

With an "ECU tune" (via reflash, piggyback or standalone controller), it's not advisable to raise a typical car's stock rev-limit more than 500 rpm. You can raise the limit safely after beefing up the internals, as reflected in the "NA tuning" available for most cars.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Thing is I drive a fwd car with a lowly 122 torque and if I was to nail my start at over 4000k rpm my front wheels will spun up and my car won't go anywhere. Especially if I'm on a slope. My car is in the game and I can dump the throttle at full bore and not experience the same thing.

How old is the suspension on your car? Stock equivalent tyres?

I've full bored a '93 Sunny, '98 Megane, '99 Almera, '04 Focus and '07 Astra (all 1.6 engine) and all of them launch even with the tyres smoking even in the damp.

Were a car (regardless of engine) to stand still with power going through the wheels I'd have to say the suspension was tired and having trouble pressing the wheels into the road.

 

[JTSnooks]

It would be nice if I could assign the clutch to my L2 trigger, so I could at least try to get a good take off. With the DS3 you have to pretty much give it full throttle, before the clutch will engage and then it's just wheel spin and if you leave off a bit to try and regain some grip you end up having slower acceleration than if you just kept it full throttle with the wheels spinning. The only thing that can make it easier sometimes is staring in second gear.

Edit: Did engines from the 40's and 60's even have rev limiters?

Don't worry, even with access to the clutch, the quickest way is still to just dump it and spin the tires to high heaven. Hence why we're not happy with the physics.

As Scotracer notes: when remapping a car, you will want to keep a limiter in to keep the engine from blowing up.

With an "ECU tune" (via reflash, piggyback or standalone controller), it's not advisable to raise a typical car's stock rev-limit more than 500 rpm. You can raise the limit safely after beefing up the internals, as reflected in the "NA tuning" available for most cars.

True, however I believe what he was mostly referring to was that until the 80s, very few cars had any kind of rev limiter whatsoever. I know back when I had my '66 Pontiac I could run the engine up as high as I wanted until it either blew up or ran out of breathing ability.

With newer cars you'r right, usually a tune only raises the rev limiter a few hundred rpm, but I suppose if you got someone who didn't know what they were doing or bought a cheap tune off of ebay you might end up with no rev limiter anymore.

Anyway, the rev limiter isn't really a part of the physics engine so let's get back on topic.

 

[mani_23]

Most of my cars have great low rpm Torque and will kick out even if I slightly press on the gas.

TCS Off, sometimes even works with 1

 

[calan_svc]

Most of my cars have great low rpm Torque and will kick out even if I slightly press on the gas.

But what happens if you set the tranny to auto, and simply floor it after letting off the brake?

It's nuts. Even a low-powered car will take off fairly quickly IRL. But in GT5, I can let off the brake and then floor an 800hp car with an auto tranny and it takes off like the Fiat 500. But if you keep your foot on the brake and rev it first and then dump the brake, it takes off like a dropped clutch. Go figure.

 

[JTSnooks]

Most of my cars have great low rpm Torque and will kick out even if I slightly press on the gas.

TCS Off, sometimes even works with 1

Try it in 2nd gear

And yes, you can overpower some of the flaws by using a car with 800hp+ and really poor tires, however you shouldn't have to. A 400ft-lb Camaro SS should EASILY spin comfort-hard tires in 2nd gear by dumping the clutch from a stop, but in the game it doesn't elicit so much as a chirp. My car in real life has the equivalent of something between comfort-soft and sports-hard tires and roughly the same drivetrain as the new Camaro SS, and if I dump the clutch from a stop in 2nd gear the tires will go up in smoke. I'd bet it would even work in 3rd, but I wouldn't want to try it for fear of clutch/drivetrain damage.

Oh, and Calan, what you've noticed is the fact that GT games actually make no distinction between an automatic transmission or a manual transmission. When you set the transmission to "automatic", all that means is the game changes the gears for you, not that the car has an actual automatic transmission with a torque converter and a planetary gearset. What cracks me up is that a lot of cars in real life aren't offered with a manual transmission, yet you have no choice in the game because it makes no attempt to properly simulate the behavior of an automatic. I don't really find this to be a huge issue, as if you get into the actual differences between an automatic and manual, you then have to put in a LOT of work with determining how every car's automatic transmission performs (shift times, lockup rpm, number of gears/different ratios, etc). For instance, in my car the manual transmission is a 6-speed while the automatic version is only a 4-speed. If they had to go into that kind of detail with every car the game would never be released.

 

[eight6er]

Does anyone else find the hand brake feels odd? The first thing is, in a FR car when you pull the handbrake it feels like the clutch is not in at first then after about a second it disengages the clutch which i find annoying. The second thing is, it's locking the wheels, i can see on the the replay, but it's still just slowing the car down more than sliding the car and when you leave off and put the throttle on, the back wheels seem to have trouble spinning like it has extra grip somehow, especially if you rev the car up before leaving it off.

 

[Eric.]

I like how cars from the the 60's and even 40's bounce off of a rev limiter. And I'm not an expert... but usually a chip or tuner will rid the vehicle of an electronic rev limiter.

There's no reason to entirely remove a rev limiter. I have Hondata on my Civic and a rev limiter set to 8600rpm. Without one I'd be free to rev on past 9000rpm until the valves and pistons smashed together.

 

[eight6er]

There's no reason to entirely remove a rev limiter. I have Hondata on my Civic and a rev limiter set to 8600rpm. Without one I'd be free to rev on past 9000rpm until the valves and pistons smashed together.

I had no limiter in my skyline and it came in useful when I had to drift a fast corner, only there wasn't enough power to do it in third gear because I had some 255/40/17 yokohama dna tyres, so i did it in second, at what ever revs it starts floating valves at lol, well past 9000 on the rev counter.

 

[Wolfe]

Good points, JTSnooks. 👍 I agree completely.

Another smaller issue I've noticed is how the outside tire spins up and turns red before the inside tire...I'm guessing it's due to how the game calculates the tire's heat. More weight over the outside tire = more force = less grip = more slippage.

That sounds like a point I made about GT5's physics in The Infield (emphasis added):

I did say that the game accounted for variables in each tire (the tire temp/wear indicator is the most visible proof of this). I just don't think each tire plays a direct role in determining what the car does, exerting independent forces at each corner of the car (as LFS will proudly display if you hit the 'F' key). Rather, the tire variables seem to do no more than "report back" to the primary engine so that it can make corresponding adjustments.

Here's a hypothetical situation to show what I mean. Say you come up to a right-hand corner...
GT5 (maybe)
Your steering input sends the "turn right" signal to the physics engine. This causes the "front axle" to rotate to the right (using the car's CG as a point of reference) and alter your vector of travel. Sensing what has been designated a "slip" situation (substantial steering input at high speed), the front tires increase temperature. Also responding to the "turn right" signal is the "weight load" variable, which increases on the left tires, and decreases on the right. Following its programming (extra "weight load" = more temp/wear), the left front tire increases temperature more than the right.
LFS (for example)
Your steering input signals the front wheels to "rotate right." This alters the slip angle of the tires, which begin to exert force in a lateral direction, shifting the nose of the car to the right. The rear wheels, following the rotation of the car, alter their slip angles and contribute to a change in vector. Acting through the suspension, the car's weight shifts to the left, resisting the change in inertia. This causes the left front tire to experience more wear (and temperature increase) as it takes the brunt of altering the forward inertia of the car.

Same visible result (independent tire temperature), completely different physics approaches. But the way the car feels could still be extremely similar.

The independent tire temperature can still play a role in both cases, too, but for different reasons -- in GT5 (maybe), the increased temperature might send a "I can't turn right as well anymore" signal to the "front axle," causing increased understeer until the tire cools. In LFS, the increased temperature could cause the tire to have less lateral grip to offer, with obvious results if you attempt to exceed that available grip.

And another from the same thread, relevant to the original post here (emphasis added):

GT5 still seems to use a simplistic model with a bunch of rules attached; the disconnect between what the car is doing and the way the front wheels twitch around with a controller points to this. If GT5 were a true sim, it'd pay close attention to which way the front wheels are pointed and let input smoothing deal with making it drivable for a controller. With the lack of rollovers and some odd behavior, it's clear Enthusia isn't an unrestricted environment like Live for Speed -- which could probably simulate walking bipedal robots if the LFS team wanted it to -- but the physics engine is still a calculation of physics, not of "car behavior." This old image from the Enthusia website illustrates the difference:



So while GT5 calculates more things at a greater frequency than Enthusia, at most it feels like a "two-point" (front axle and rear axle) system with variables for the available traction of each tire. I would need more time with the game to flesh out my analysis, but RWD wheelspin didn't seem to shift the rear end around unless you put in significant steering input. As if the game didn't care if one rear wheel was spinning faster than the other (it'd still propel you straight forward, like GT4). My experience with dipping rear wheels into the grass in the AMG challenges corroborated this.

Like others have said here, GT5 is certainly an incalculably huge improvement over GT4. In my case, it's the difference between a completely unbearable pile of 🤬 and something I could play every day. But there's still something not right.

I like how cars from the the 60's and even 40's bounce off of a rev limiter.

I knew I was playing a Gran Turismo game when I had to feather the throttle in the Top Gear VW Bus and Kübelwagen challenges in order to keep the engine from bouncing off of the rev limiter in top gear and losing power for about 5 seconds.

 

[I6-4-eva]

You call having 340ft-lbs of torque at 2500rpm "peaky"? Trust me, the Camaro basically has a slightly larger version of the engine in my car and only weighs a little more. If you drop the clutch with even 50% throttle it'll spin the tires right up to redline all the way through the gear.

It is peaky and I was talking about the 2010 Camaro ss power chart in the game. If you don't have one in your garage buy it and take a look. The torque represented in game does not match up to that real dyno chart i showed you earlier that's why it's harder to smoke tires.

I can do burnouts in the Jaguar XFR all day because it has 448 lbft of torque at 2500 rpm all the way to I'm guessing 5000rpm. Yes the game shows a flat line of torque all the way to 5k rpm in the max.power/chart. I can even brake and the tires will still spin.

The way the engines deliver power in GT5 is unrealistic even the turbo gauge is just another throttle position indicator. Some cars have it good some don't.

 

[CoolColJ]

I am with you on full throttle launches being faster, but can not agree on FWD cars having even wheelspin. My FWD cars quite regularly get uneven heat under acceleration with one side spinning up more than another.

And just the other day I was going a shuffle race on the ring where I was placed in a civic. It was really fun because I was getting a fair bit of oversteer, lift off and in sweepers.

Oh I forgot about my Civic Type R.. I have been looking for a different tune because the overseer is killing me online. I thought the tune was good around Tsukuba, but damn take it anywhere else and all my speed gets scrubbed off when I have to correct the tail swinging about. It needs a much larger wing.


What is your car? I'll test your claim.

While the wheelspin in the game may not be even in all cases the effect felt is pretty even and unlike in real life.

Take the Ford Focus ST in the seasonal event. A pretty powerful turbocharged FWD car in real life and in the game.
Have you ever driven a souped up FWD car in real life? The wheel tugs out of your hands under hard acceleration, even in a straight line, a bit worse out of turns and pretty scary in the wet!

I used to drive a tuned up FWD Nissan Pulsar, and the torque steer was something I had to keep in mind every time I floored it in the lower gears. I would tense up and give the wheel a death grip before doing so
And it wasn't as powerful as a lot of these current turbocharged FWD cars these days.

So it's like the effect of a RWD car but on the opposite end, instead of the rear end wiggling about, the front end does, and because the steering wheel is connected to the front wheels, you feel this directly by the wheel having a mind of it's own.

In GT5, you will feel the rear end of the car buck in the FFB on the wheel, and the rear end fish tail about, but you won't feel the same with a FWD car. It's a rather serene experience....

The FFB should be bucking about the same way!!!
It's just that torque steer isn't modelled. In the Focus ST Seasonal event, that first tricky series of hard left handers, will create a ton of wheel spin if you stomp the gas through it, but the car tracks straight with the front tyres going red.

RWD drive cars get all the love, but I guess Kaz has never driven a FWD street car
Currently FWD cars in GT5 are just "noob" vehicles. While in reality, you have torque steer and lift off oversteer to contend with when driven hard as you do in the game. Enthusia had lift off oversteer down pat in FWD cars, and the physics engine coder now works for PD, what gives...?




FWD lift off oversteer in 3rd gear

 

[GT Motion]

I just think they need to fix the clutch and that's it, the clutch does not work as it should at all. Hopefully when they release their official wheel with a clutch they will release an update to fix the inaccurate clutch.

 

[Zer0]

What cracks me up is that a lot of cars in real life aren't offered with a manual transmission, yet you have no choice in the game because it makes no attempt to properly simulate the behavior of an automatic.

IL: I want to ask you about automated manual transmissions. The GT-R has one. You have a similar transmission in the Mitsubishi Evo. The Audi R8 has R-tronic, just a single clutch, but there are an increasing number of these transmissions on the market. Does this have any implications as far as designing driving games, because it's technically a manual transmission but it functions more like an automatic. Yet, in video games, you have the choice of one or the other. Is this going to force you to rethink how you design games and actually have animation of the driver shifting with paddles?

Yamauchi: Internally, all these types of transmissions are replicated in our games. Of course, you have single- and dual-clutch versions, but the shift timing and torque application and time lag of the shift and all the gearbox characteristics are actually replicated accurately in our games. For example, in GT5 Prologue, the 2007 Ferrari F1 car uses a seamless shifter and that's simulated accurately as well.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...kazunori-yamauchi-father-of-gran-turismo.html

 

[CoolColJ]

I noticed since the last update some cars with these clutchless systems will crawl when the car is stopped and throttle is off. Much like a real auto would.

 

[midjetv8]

Not being a smartass but whatttttt???
My mclaren f1 spins in 3rd of the line.
Even my 300hp civic spins in 2nd of the line.
Remember this is with ALL aids off. As to the power shifting i cant comment because i only have a controller.

 

[NOS Waster]

IL: I want to ask you about automated manual transmissions. The GT-R has one. You have a similar transmission in the Mitsubishi Evo. The Audi R8 has R-tronic, just a single clutch, but there are an increasing number of these transmissions on the market. Does this have any implications as far as designing driving games, because it's technically a manual transmission but it functions more like an automatic. Yet, in video games, you have the choice of one or the other. Is this going to force you to rethink how you design games and actually have animation of the driver shifting with paddles?

Yamauchi: Internally, all these types of transmissions are replicated in our games. Of course, you have single- and dual-clutch versions, but the shift timing and torque application and time lag of the shift and all the gearbox characteristics are actually replicated accurately in our games. For example, in GT5 Prologue, the 2007 Ferrari F1 car uses a seamless shifter and that's simulated accurately as well.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...kazunori-yamauchi-father-of-gran-turismo.html

Accurate shift timings? Tell that to all the cars that have H-gates in the game that shift faster when using my wheel paddles.
They hardly got any of the cars with H-shifters right.

 

[vsaber]

with all the "simuation" features that u guys requested in GT series, I wonder how many video gamers will actually play the game.
u do realize most people have never handled a car with over 200hp in real life whether its FWD, AWD or RWD. And we are boasting how a 900+ hp minolta is meek to drive in the game.
Relax guys, its just a game, we're paying 50 bux for it (give or take) and expect F1 simulator level of realism? Oh please...
I wonder if I go visit flight simulator forums, there will be people complaining at the lack of realism too

 

[unv412]

the level of simulation (if its a good one) should be able to cater for all, from the noobs to the most hard core, only the level settings should change.

I paid $ 20 AUD for LFS "game" and it walks over this "5 years to develop " game ! I played Live For Speed (with ****** generic cars and no RL tracks) against friends online religiously time after time just because it felt real.......but i find GT5's lack of low speed physics, collision physics and unrealistic mechanics (eg engine braking, shifting feel, clutch actuation etc) below par.


Btw Good points, JTSnooks & Wolfe I also agree completely. I think we all at GTP need to discuss GT5 physics more comprehensively, as i find this is what makes or breaks a car sim.......not whether or not the shadows are jaggerdy or the paint options are rediculous!

 

[SubaruWrXSt!]

The only thing I noticed that really bothers me is that when I'm completely stopped on a slanted road so that the right side of the car is higher than the left, when I give it a little bit of gas going like 2mph, the car just slides to the left or which ever side is lower.

 

[vsaber]

so...decrease amt of licenced cars, decrease amt of licenced tracks sell for half the price of GT5 and appeal to the same video gamers...nice idea...
I don't think that's the idea of GT series.
But whatever works for u guys, if it had come with generic cars, generic tracks, this forum and all its sub forum wouldn't exist in the first place.
Be happy for GT5, if one is so inclined to "feel" burnouts and low speed cornering etc, go test a drive a real car, u don't even need a really powerful one either.
Nothing beats the sensation of driving a real car even its just a basic honda fit, better yet, go to the real Nring, rent a polo GTI and "attempt'" to set a lap record the way you drive it in the game and see how many of u still reports back here

The whole point is, its a game, it has evolved so much from GT, and it's something noticeable, of course other games have their + points too, that's why there are other games. Hopefully by the time PS5 is out, whever it is and GT game for that system is out, there will be a true simulation mode (3d goggles etc, heck even 4d might be possible with hydraulic automated racing chairs) and the normal mode for the video gamers in 98% of us.

 

[JTSnooks]

IL: I want to ask you about automated manual transmissions. The GT-R has one. You have a similar transmission in the Mitsubishi Evo. The Audi R8 has R-tronic, just a single clutch, but there are an increasing number of these transmissions on the market. Does this have any implications as far as designing driving games, because it's technically a manual transmission but it functions more like an automatic. Yet, in video games, you have the choice of one or the other. Is this going to force you to rethink how you design games and actually have animation of the driver shifting with paddles?

Yamauchi: Internally, all these types of transmissions are replicated in our games. Of course, you have single- and dual-clutch versions, but the shift timing and torque application and time lag of the shift and all the gearbox characteristics are actually replicated accurately in our games. For example, in GT5 Prologue, the 2007 Ferrari F1 car uses a seamless shifter and that's simulated accurately as well.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...kazunori-yamauchi-father-of-gran-turismo.html

Interesting. So they did attempt to replicate the shift timing of clutch-style automatics. I wonder how they determined the shift speed of a normal manual transmission with a clutch? And they still haven't tried to replicate a true slushbox torque-converter style automatic in any way, you always get the feeling that it's being revved up and the clutch dumped.

Not being a smartass but whatttttt???
My mclaren f1 spins in 3rd of the line.
Even my 300hp civic spins in 2nd of the line.
Remember this is with ALL aids off. As to the power shifting i cant comment because i only have a controller.

I only drive with all aids off. If you don't have a clutch then you really can't comment on the cars spinning the tires from a stop. In the game, once the car gets rolling and into the meat of the powerband, it will start to spin the tires if it has enough power. However, try putting it in 2nd while stopped, holding the gas and brake to rev the engine up, and letting off the brake. The car will bog immediately, then once it picks up speed it might start spinning the tires.

I tried it with a Corvette C6 Z06 (520hp or so and nearly the same torque) on sports hard tires and a 2010 Camaro SS (435hp or so) on comfort hard tires (the worst tires in the game). Whether using the paddle shifters or actually using the clutch and dumping it, they wouldn't spin the tires in 2nd gear from a stop. Try that in real life and you'll get a huge cloud of smoke and a couple hundred feet of tire tread left on the road. And it won't be anywhere near a straight line either, which I didn't even bring up.

Oh, and as for the torque curve, sorry for jumping on you, I misunderstood what you were saying. I'll have to look in the game and compare the two. If that's the case, they must have gotten the Z06 wrong too.

 

[Eric.]

Interesting. So they did attempt to replicate the shift timing of clutch-style automatics. I wonder how they determined the shift speed of a normal manual transmission with a clutch? And they still haven't tried to replicate a true slushbox torque-converter style automatic in any way, you always get the feeling that it's being revved up and the clutch dumped.



I only drive with all aids off. If you don't have a clutch then you really can't comment on the cars spinning the tires from a stop. In the game, once the car gets rolling and into the meat of the powerband, it will start to spin the tires if it has enough power. However, try putting it in 2nd while stopped, holding the gas and brake to rev the engine up, and letting off the brake. The car will bog immediately, then once it picks up speed it might start spinning the tires.

I tried it with a Corvette C6 Z06 (520hp or so and nearly the same torque) on sports hard tires and a 2010 Camaro SS (435hp or so) on comfort hard tires (the worst tires in the game). Whether using the paddle shifters or actually using the clutch and dumping it, they wouldn't spin the tires in 2nd gear from a stop. Try that in real life and you'll get a huge cloud of smoke and a couple hundred feet of tire tread left on the road. And it won't be anywhere near a straight line either, which I didn't even bring up.

Oh, and as for the torque curve, sorry for jumping on you, I misunderstood what you were saying. I'll have to look in the game and compare the two. If that's the case, they must have gotten the Z06 wrong too.

A few cars in GT4 shifted like automatics/CVTs. There's an Evo 7 "GT-A" I think, that had an auto. I think it creeped from a stop like the paddle shift cars do, and it's shifts were more seamless like an auto, without cutting the throttle (also kept the boost up). It seems like oldest GT-R Concept (Tokyo Motor Show Concept) and its fantasy LM version did that too. Not sure what else. But there wasn't any difference in taking off that I remember.

 

[nasanu]

I've written at length about this elsewhere but let me summarise: there's no way in hell a games console will ever (repeat: ever) accurate reality enough that would allow you to call it an engineering simulation (i.e. one that can be used for real design work).

Redbull's sim could well run on a console and that is realistic enough to train their drivers on. We do not need something at is simulating every single part and is in fact running a virtual car right down to simulating the temperature of the fire inside the cylinder. Just simulating the output of the engine is enough.

All a realistic simulation requires is that realistic input produces realistic output. It really does not matter how you get that output, that is irrelevant.

Think of flight sims also. The sims that are used to test pilots could also have no issues running on modern consoles.

 

[unv412]

so...decrease amt of licenced cars, decrease amt of licenced tracks sell for half the price of GT5 and appeal to the same video gamers...nice idea...
I don't think that's the idea of GT series.
But whatever works for u guys, if it had come with generic cars, generic tracks, this forum and all its sub forum wouldn't exist in the first place.
Be happy for GT5, if one is so inclined to "feel" burnouts and low speed cornering etc, go test a drive a real car, u don't even need a really powerful one either.
Nothing beats the sensation of driving a real car even its just a basic honda fit, better yet, go to the real Nring, rent a polo GTI and "attempt'" to set a lap record the way you drive it in the game and see how many of u still reports back here

The whole point is, its a game, it has evolved so much from GT, and it's something noticeable, of course other games have their + points too, that's why there are other games. Hopefully by the time PS5 is out, whever it is and GT game for that system is out, there will be a true simulation mode (3d goggles etc, heck even 4d might be possible with hydraulic automated racing chairs) and the normal mode for the video gamers in 98% of us.

Your funny !
This point of yours "its only a game" is the same point of all the other "games" out there that do low speed physics better too!
GT5 makes claims to be the real driving sim, i just wish to discuss better ways it can truly live up to that claim my brother 👍

Its like this....GT has always been to me about presenting a vast multitude of differing makes and models at the highest level of perfection.....but this time its fallen short given it long dev time and supposed technical advances:tdown:

Ps i have done all those suggested real life activities (yes even the ring in a rental -6 speed man Merc e320) so it cuts me that i ( the 2 % according to you) cannot re-live these moments in the virtual world.

Now back to discussing what isnt quite right physics wise and no more talking about settling for mediocrity just because its easier to be ignorant

 

[vsaber]

@unv412:
nah u can't relive any of the real driving moments in a vid game, any game, even the real F1 simulator.
still if it does get everything correct, or at least it wants to, GT5 won't be released til 2020 maybe.
I did try to be funny and sarcastic
It is a racing game, why would you want to do standing burnout, granted in real life, like JTsnook mention, you will do standing burnout in 2nd gear in a Z06 or Cam SS, but maybe it's just not that relevant in the game.
If you want a complete simulator, they GT will need to simulate how would different tire compound acts in the different temperature, humidity, types of track surface, as the amount of grip will vary depending on the condition.

so for the next GT, lets have 250 cars, 4 cars in a race and 99% accurate physics just for you.
but for the rest of us, gran turismo will still be THE game that offers gameplay as close as possible to the real thing while still being enjoyable as a video game.

ps. driving the e320 on the ring must be biotch, that thing unders and rolls like a tank gotta be fun though.

 

[Wolfe]

with all the "simuation" features that u guys requested in GT series, I wonder how many video gamers will actually play the game.

In many instances, physics flaws actually make a game more difficult than the real thing. Take the license tests in GT5, for example, where a lack of lift-off oversteer and other subtle issues make it needlessly difficult to nail sharp corners as fast as the game expects you to. The most efficient way to avoid understeer is to tap the handbrake, which isn't entirely unrealistic, but acts as a band-aid for problems that affect the entire driving experience.

Really, despite its faults, GT5 (with the driving aids off) is already beyond the limit of "noob friendliness" you're hinting at, which is more than can be said of earlier entries in the franchise. Many people complain that it's barely playable; you just don't see much of that here because we're the hardcore driving sim fans. However, I doubt sales will be affected much, considering GT already has a rock-solid reputation as "the Real Driving Simulator" and created a false association between "realistic" and "difficult" that many players rely upon as an explanation for their failure in the game.

With that in mind, I don't think many people would be upset if PD gave us the realistic physics we want. Even the worst players would readily blame themselves for spinning out and crashing, because "difficult = realistic."

Relax guys, its just a game, we're paying 50 bux for it (give or take) and expect F1 simulator level of realism? Oh please...
I wonder if I go visit flight simulator forums, there will be people complaining at the lack of realism too

We're not asking for anything that hasn't been done before, in a similar format, and for a smaller price tag. And excluding the players who are just in it for the scenery or IFR practice, flight sim fans are just as concerned with proper realism as we are. They have more to worry about, too -- changing atmospheric conditions, wind speed, and fuel weight are just a few of the things you can gloss over in a driving game, but cannot exclude from any proper flight sim.

@unv412:
nah u can't relive any of the real driving moments in a vid game, any game, even the real F1 simulator.
still if it does get everything correct, or at least it wants to, GT5 won't be released til 2020 maybe.

You'll never relive the entire experience of driving a car in any virtual format (at least with current technology), but you're not listening to unv412 when he tells you that other games give him the "approximation" of reality he craves. That's why it shouldn't take another 9 years for PD to accomplish what we seek -- others have been doing it for years.

It is a racing game, why would you want to do standing burnout, granted in real life, like JTsnook mention, you will do standing burnout in 2nd gear in a Z06 or Cam SS, but maybe it's just not that relevant in the game.

When the braindead AI pits you and sends you spinning into a barrier facing the wrong way, would you rather...
A. Make a time-consuming Y-turn to face the right way because your powerful RWD car can't spin around like it would in real life
B. Drop the clutch and pull a quick 180 burnout to jump back into the race

Your call. Also, as is pointed out time and time again, it's "the Real Driving Simulator." If Kazunori wanted to create the ultimate racing simulator, GT would be a very different game.

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Think of flight sims also. The sims that are used to test pilots could also have no issues running on modern consoles.

X-Plane is the best flight sim I know of; it's FAA-certified, and according to the website, "Kalitta Air, Northwest and Japan Airlines, Cessna, and NASA trust X-Plane for training and testing." Yet it's got versions running on smartphones and iPads ("95% as accurate" as the standard program). I think a PS3 just might have a slight chance at running it. Hell, a BluRay disc would be perfect to fit global scenery data.