GT6 – Oil, Engine, and High Mileage HP Deterioration Guide

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by Hastatus, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. xSNAKEx

    xSNAKEx

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    This is good stuff but we need a thread with a list of max HP of all the cars. That way we can check our HP, compare it to the list and see if we need to buy another car or rebuild engine.

    For example

    -Buggati Veyron 09 -1256HP fully tuned (from gt5)

    Is anyone going to start one?
     
  2. Kakti

    Kakti

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    Thanks for looking into this for everyone Hastatus, much appreciated. :cheers:
     
  3. iainoflo85

    iainoflo85

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    There is already one out there. @mcsqueegy was kind enough to make one.
     
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  4. mcsqueegy

    mcsqueegy Premium

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    Right over here.

    ;)
     
  5. Hastatus

    Hastatus

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    I raced in several online races today with Tire Wear Off and mileage was added to my cars every time. I think GT5 was like that at different stages, but it doesn't seem to be happening in GT6 at the moment. Maybe something was changed in the patches since 1.03 or 1.04? I also avoided going into the Car Settings after the races: there is a glitch in Arcade Mode where the mileage is added to your car if you enter Car Settings after you get back into the race menu after driving; i.e. if you avoid going into the Car Settings menu the mileage will not be added to your car.

    Is anyone else able to confirm whether or not they are getting mileage in online races when Tire Wear is set to OFF?
     
  6. esoxhntr

    esoxhntr

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    mileage is added yes, but the cars don't wear oil/body/engine eventhough mileage goes up. :)

    for example, buy a brand new car, do an oil change (get the 5% boost). drive online for 10,000 kms in a room with tire wear off, your oil will still be fresh (including 5% boost). the car's mileage will be 10,000kms.
     
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  7. Hastatus

    Hastatus

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    Ha. That is crazy. I see what you meant by " 'counts' " now in you first post. I misunderstood. Sorry. :O

    I would never have guessed or noticed this. I think that might have been why my NASCAR car took a little longer for the engine light to come on since I used that in a couple races with Tire Wear off to see if mileage went up. This will surely make some people confused because they will have mileage that will not trigger the deterioration lights when they expect them. :boggled:

    Very good observation! I'll update the info. Thanks. :tup:
     
  8. Devil240Z

    Devil240Z

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    You should figure out a way to calculate a cars fuel economy. cause some cars clearly get better MPG than others.
     
  9. Vagabond

    Vagabond Moderator

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    Good stuff :tup:

    Let's give that a go and see...
     
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  10. PsuPepperoni

    PsuPepperoni Premium

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    Weird. I was about to note that my FGT has over 800 km without the deterioration notice, but that explains it.
     
  11. Youngun

    Youngun

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    MUST BE A STICKY!
    I hate that normal cars need an engine rebuild do soon, not even an option for a service (unless its a similar term) plugs, coils, leads etc
     
  12. MrWednesday

    MrWednesday

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    It's fairly easy on an event-by-event basis. Miles covered, which is known based on lap distance, divided by fuel consumed, which you can figure when you pit.

    You can get maximum fuel usage on SSRX, since most cars will be WOT all the way around. Any other track should be less since you would spend some time off throttle.
     
  13. Monatsende

    Monatsende

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    STICKY!!! Very helpful thread.
     
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  14. ryzno

    ryzno Premium

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    There is one in the Drag Racing Forum.
    Im sure @kingking could use some help...

    Seems like the Drag Racing Forum is never looked at. We discussed Rims and Flat Floors before the beloved Tuners start to talk/realize about them.

    Ill say GTP is a little biased. 8 days and this gets a sticky...











    We get none...

    Edit its max hp.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
  15. eclipsee

    eclipsee

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    Awesome report @Hastatus , I wish PD remove oil and body rigidity behaviour, they're more a pain in the arse than anything.
     
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  16. spongertwo22

    spongertwo22

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    This would be cool
     
  17. Camaro69427

    Camaro69427

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    This is why we need a UCD in GT6. So we can use these features in GT Auto. Most of my cars don't get high enough miles/KM to even need a new oil change. What needs to happen is take all of the cars in the current Car Dealership (except special editions, SEMA, Chromeline, etc) and put them in a used car dealership with varying KM amounts and cheaper prices.
     
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  18. diegorborges

    diegorborges

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    This x 1000000

    I hate the fact that we don't have an ucd. :(
     
  19. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Just noticed this should really be about 74 hp due to deterioration and about 74 hp due to the boost; so exactly half and half of the total 148 hp gain.

    The 5% boost is applied to the unboosted horsepower figure: 1549 / 1.05 = 1475. And 5% of 1475 is pretty much 74.

    Not sure if that's complicating your accuracy elsewhere (70/74 is about a 5% error in itself!), but the rounding error is relatively large as you say.


    Excellent work all the same, that's a lot to take in - it must have been quite the endeavour! :cheers:
     
  20. kolio

    kolio Premium

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    Beautiful..... This is awesome! Good job!

    :tup: :tup:
     
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  21. Hastatus

    Hastatus

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    I don't think you're correct about this. What you think is what I originally thought, but then I found out it didn't make sense if that were the case.

    The line in question since quotes of quotes disappear:

    "...
    1401 hp + oil change = 1549 hp (+148 hp = 77.8 (total oil deterioration restored) + 70.05 (5% hp boost on 1401)).
    ..."

    Let me try to make sense of it for you and myself: because it can be confusing. From my understanding the 5% oil boost will usually be applied to the base stock HP, but really it is applied to the current car's HP. In this situation there has been full oil deterioration AND some engine deterioration (which I had not yet restored) AND some high mileage deterioration. The 5% oil boost here can only be applied the current HP when you perform the oil change (1401 hp). If I did the calculations your way, then the oil change would not restore the full oil deterioration. Oil deterioration is only the break down of the oil itself: i.e. it is the difference between New oil and Old oil. You would have to account for a fresh oil change not being fresh oil: e.g. GTAuto is reusing old oil? ... probably not. Oil deterioration must always be fully restored when you perform an oil change. While the oil deterioration is a 5% loss compared to the base stock HP, the amount of HP lost or gained is always the same regardless of engine and high mileage deteriorations: i.e. the oil light deterioration works differently than the oil change boost/loss in that it's values are static and not influenced by the deteriorations. The oil change boost, on the other hand, is influenced by the deteriorations' effects on the stock HP level. In the situation above I had not yet performed the engine overhaul. In the next line I showed where the 'missing' oil change boost was (the way I show my math/thought processes here is kind of inelegant):

    "...
    1549 hp + engine overhaul = 1630 (+81 hp = 77.8 (total engine deterioration restored) – 4 hp (high mileage deterioration) + 7.2 (5% hp boost on 144 hp = 77.8 – 4 + 70.05 (previous 5% hp boost from oil change)).
    ..."

    70.05% (5% on 1401 hp) + 7.2 (5% hp boost on 144 hp) = 77.25

    In other words, when performing an oil change the oil change boost is applied first, then the oil deterioration is fully restored. [Blame PD for this one. lol] When performing an engine overhaul, the engine is restored and then oil is added to the rebuilt engine: meaning that the oil change boost is applied and then the oil deterioration is repaired (in that order). Because there was no oil deterioration before engine overhaul the oil change boost was then applied to the proper amount of HP.

    You would expect 77.8 on full restoration of vehicle, but there is also high mileage deterioration at this stage combined with HP rounding issues.

    It basically comes down to oil and engine deteriorations relying on static HP values for a vehicle: stock HP; while the oil change boost is determined by dynamic HP values: current HP.

    I hope this makes sense.
     
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  22. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Well, as long as you understand it! :p

    If the order is important, it'd be interesting to have two identical cars, power mileage, service history etc., and to do the oil and engine restorations in opposite orders and see what falls out (I'd predict that doing the oil first gives a 5% higher power in the "in-between" stage than doing the engine restore first).


    To me, though, a 5% (5/100) maximum loss of overall engine power due to oil deterioration implies multiplying the "base" horsepower (including any engine deterioration, or high mileage deterioration - 5% is a relative measure) by 0.95, i.e. 1 - 0.05 or (100 - 5) / 100.

    Note that the inverse process, dividing 1401 by 0.95, yields 1475 also. 1401 is not the base power, it is the oil-deteriorated power. Now: 1401 * 1.05 is only 1471 ish - that is not the correct inverse function in this case, and gives an error of over 5% in the increase i.e. 4/74, as stated.

    The same applies to the engine deterioration: 1549 / 0.95 = 1630 (ignoring rounding issues and going by the numbers the game gave you).


    It just makes more sense to me that the engine power modifications would be applied multiplicatively, and compoundly, e.g. as in the following potential candidate for the "governing equation":

    CurrentHp = stockBrandNewHp * oilFactor * engineFactor * mileageFactor

    oilFactor exists in the range 0.95 to 1.05.
    engineFactor in the range 0.95 to 1.00.
    mileageFactor in the range 1.00 or lower (to some unknown limit, if present).

    So in the case of oil, engine and ignoring the mileage deterioration, we have:

    1401 = stockBrandNewHp * 0.95 * 0.95 * mileageFactor

    Where stockBrandNewHp and mileageFactor are constants for our purposes here, and their product can be represented as P.
    i.e.:

    1401 = 0.95 * 0.95 * P

    After the oil change:

    1549 = 1.05 * 0.95 * P

    After the engine restore:

    1630 = 1.05 * 1.00 * P


    We can verify this representation accordingly by doing the calculations:

    1.05 * 1401 / 0.95 = 1549
    1.00 * 1549 / 0.95 = 1630


    Or by noting that P should be constant in each line:

    P = 1401 / (0.95 * 0.95) = 1401 / 0.9025 = 1552
    P = 1549 / (1.05 * 0.95) = 1549 / 0.9975 = 1552
    P = 1630 / (1.05 * 1.00) = 1630 / 1.0500 = 1552


    The stock un-boosted power was 1556 hp, so the mileage factor would appear to be about 0.9975 at this point. That's about 2.6% per 100 000 km, which is close to the value you suggest: (19 568.3 - 10 000) / 100 000 * 2.6% = 0.25% decrease, or 99.75% of the initial. Using more precision in the calculation, i.e. 0.997429..., yields 2.7%. The more miles someone puts on a car, the more accurate we can be (and I appreciate the great effort in that regard.)

    The hp rounding issue is massive here: if the power were actually 1551, that would be 3.4% per 100 000 km; 1553 and it's only 2.0% per 100 000 km.
    Somewhere between two and four percent seems certain - that could be narrowed further by looking at other points in your data. Edit: actually, it's between about 2.35 and 3%, because "1552" is at minimum 1551.5 and at most 1552.49... But looking at more numbers will still help.


    What's interesting is that it doesn't appear that you're wrong overall (I used your first post to define the "equation" I just tested), just that you might be attributing actual hp value changes in the wrong proportion to each effect, or that you're just summing things differently from the way I see it. It's clear that we need to be working in relative differences rather than absolute horsepower differences.

    But I appreciate I could still just be being thick!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  23. Hastatus

    Hastatus

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    I have done engine and oil restorations in reverse orders before: when you perform an engine restoration you also get an oil change. You cannot get a post-engine-restore, pre-oil-restore HP.

    Your math (which is elegant by the way :tup:) works fine assuming order plays no importance. I cannot prove whether it does or does not yet.

    1556 hp – 77.8 hp (5%) = 1478.2 hp
    1478.2 hp – 73.9hp (5%) = 1404.3 hp

    During my tests the oil deterioration caused a loss of 77.8 hp and the engine deterioration caused a loss of 73.9 hp. If the programming simply used multiples for each deterioration as you suggest with no individual unique range rules for each then it should be possible to get a loss of 77.8 hp for engine deterioration while performing regular oil changes.

    My belief is that oil always impacts a fraction of the 77.8 hp and the engine deterioration always impacts a fraction of the 73.9 hp.

    With further testing we'll determine which of our hypotheses is correct. I think I will start by seeing if anything can be seen with the high mileage cars of GT5. If the proportions of oil restoration vs engine overhaul are the same for the lower mileage versions of the cars AND the high mileage versions of the same car, then you might be right. But if the oil change restores the same amount at both low and high mileage and the engine overhaul restores less at high mileage than low mileage, I might be right, ASSUMING that the Formula GT5 = Formula GT6.

    I still think the programmers would have made the high mileage deterioration impact the engine deterioration stat rather than be a completely independent variable that causes each of the other deteriorations to have less restoration capabilities over time.

    Time for some more experiments.
     
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  24. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Thanks for your continued efforts. :tup:

    The issue is that it makes sense for these effects to be proportional rather than absolute. 10 hp is 10 hp, but 10 hp from a 7 litre engine with minimal friction is not the same "achievement" as 10 hp from a 100 cc engine with worn bearings and poor compression.

    Short of actually modeling things like oil breakdown, inclusions in the oil etc. on the effect of friction, and equivalent effects from compression reduction (which alters "friction", too, granted) etc. on the effect of power generation, and still various other effects, it makes more sense that PD would use the more simple and intuitive method given the crude nature of the way the stats are applied (mileage thresholds and linear gradients), and the actual values of the stats (a beautifully round 5%) - at least it does to my simple mind.

    But the data should tell us one way or another.
     
  25. omgsean1

    omgsean1

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    Last time I check in my Lamborghini Diablo GT which possible have oil light on, but I decide to drive around 5,064k km or so oil light just on, however it's not in cockpit. How strange PD never put it in first place.
     
  26. Hastatus

    Hastatus

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    @Griffith500 : Eureka! You were right about the factors being completely independent of order. I looked back at how I tried to break down the numbers and the illogical lack of order actually fixes everything so that it should make sense now.

    BEFORE:

    1401 hp + oil change = 1549 hp (+148 hp = 77.8 (total oil deterioration restored) + 70.05 (5% hp boost on 1401)).

    1549 hp + engine overhaul = 1630 (+81 hp = 77.8 (total engine deterioration restored) – 4 hp (high mileage deterioration) + 7.2 (5% hp boost on 144 hp = 77.8 – 4 + 70.05 (previous 5% hp boost from oil change)).
    If an engine overhaul is performed on 1401 HP you would get:

    1401 hp + 77.8 + 77.8 – 4 hp + 0.05*1552.6 =
    1552.6 + 77.6 =
    1630.2 hp

    AFTER being corrected:

    1401 hp + oil change = 1549 hp [+148 hp = 73.9 (total engine deterioration restored) + 74.1 (5% oil hp boost on 1474.9 (= 1401 + 73.9); actual = 1548.7)].

    1549 hp + engine overhaul = 1630 hp [(+81 hp = 77.8 (total oil deterioration restored) + 3.2 (5% oil hp boost on 77.8 hp; actual = 3.9)].

    If an engine overhaul is performed on 1401 HP you would get:
    (1401 hp + 73.9 hp + 77.8 hp) + 0.05*1552.6 hp =
    1552.6 hp + 77.6 hp =
    1630.2 hp

    ***

    I will make the changes to the main document and include your formula. Again thanks for seeing past my error. I'm the one who was thick. ;)
     
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  27. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Not at all, you did great work in interpreting the raw numbers, and spotting the underlying subtleties e.g. the high mileage threshold. Thanks again for all the hard work, I was just the picky one. ;)
     
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  28. snowgt

    snowgt

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    Great determination to do the testing to find all the deterioration mechanisms.

    However, I noticed that chassis deterioration on my Civic Type-R '08 had begun only after 1000km. It had been used exclusively online in practices and races with tyre wear on. Now, since I haven't run any test series on this, I can't be sure, but it seems to me that there's either more than one class of cars in terms of chassis deterioration, or the effects are so minute that it won't show on lower-powered cars. (although it's a bit suspicious that this would happen coincidentally almost exactly at twice the range you got from your testing)

    I believe oil/engine behaviour is definitely the same for all.
     
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  29. Hastatus

    Hastatus

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    I have not done much online testing. Before jumping to differences between cars I would suggest we test whether rigidity,oil,engine deteriorations accumulate during online Practice (is this the same as "Free Run"?). The mileage goes up no matter what the car is doing, but the deteriorations might not be counted. A simple way to test this would be to do an oil change in order to get the HP boost. The boost lasts 200 km before it starts to drop. If you keep track of the mileage driven during practice and races (by recording the 'bumper' view's odometer readings before and after), you might notice that the HP only begins to drop after 200 race kilometers and that the practice kilometers do not impact the oil. If practice has no impact on the oil deterioration factor, then it is likely that it has no effect on the rigidity deterioration factor either.

    In terms of distance driven in your practice and races: is it possible that you spent 50% of the distance in practice and 50% in races with your Civic? i.e. you might have driven 500 km in races, and 500 km in practice.
     
  30. snowgt

    snowgt

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    I have made a rough calculation and it could well be that I had just passed the 500km-mark in races at the same time I had about 1000km on the odometer. That would indicate that practice/free run does not make the car deteriorate and only racing does in online mode.