GT6 – Oil, Engine, and High Mileage HP Deterioration Guide

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by Hastatus, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. Hastatus

    Hastatus

    Messages:
    720
    GT6 – Oil, Engine, and High Mileage HP Deterioration Guide

    [​IMG]

    Introduction:

    There are three indicator lights in the GT Auto menu:
    1. an oil light
    2. a body rigidity light
    3. an engine light
    These three indicators attempt to help inform you about aspects of deterioration: the break down of the oil, the loss of the vehicle’s body rigidity, and the engine getting out of tune.

    When these are in ‘good condition’ the light is green.
    When these ‘begin to deteriorate’ the lights turn yellow.
    During the deterioration stages these lights transition from yellow to orange and finally to red.
    When the lights turn red and begin flashing GT Auto ‘recommends’ that you change your oil, restore your body rigidity, and overhaul your engine.

    Each of these categories of deterioration are determined by the mileage of your car since the last oil change, rigidity restoration, or engine overhaul. The purpose of this guide is to determine the amount of the deterioration on your vehicle’s HP and at what mileage the impacts occur. I am unable to make any sense of what the rigidity impact actually does because there are no numbers for this mathematician to crunch and I have never spent enough time driving only one vehicle nor have I ever been able to drive consistent enough lap times to notice measureable changes in the steering characteristics. Finally I will introduce you to a fourth category of deterioration: the high mileage engine deterioration, which has no indicator in GT Auto because there is nothing you can do to prevent or fix it (besides never driving your car ;)).

    The Quick Reference Guide:

    0) Oil HP Boost:
    - An oil change boosts the stock HP by 5%.
    - The 5% HP boost lasts for 200 km.
    - From 200 km to 300 km after the oil change the 5% HP boost drops linearly 1% per km (i.e. 1% of the total HP gained from the boost).
    - The 5% HP boost does apply to whatever the current HP of the car is: so if power tuning upgrades have been installed on the car these will also receive a 5% boost.

    1) Rigidity Deterioration:
    - The rigidity ‘begins to deteriorate’ at 500 km and ‘rigidity restoration is recommended’ at 19,500 km.
    - Rigidity has no influence on HP.

    2) Oil Deterioration:
    - The oil ‘begins to deteriorate’ at 5,000 km (which also activates the oil light inside car cockpits and on the racing HUD) and an ‘oil change is recommended’ at around 6,000 km.
    - There is a total linear loss of 5% HP while the oil deteriorates over the 1000 km.
    - Once the oil has fully deteriorated, there is no more HP loss due to bad oil.t
    - An oil change resets the oil indicator’s ‘odometer’.
    - Maintaining a good oil status does not slow down or prevent the engine deterioration.

    3) Engine Deterioration:
    - The engine begins to deteriorate at 5,300 km and an ‘engine overhaul is recommended’ at 10,300 km.
    - The engine deterioration continues after the recommended overhaul light turns red (unlike with oil deterioration) so that there is continued HP loss until 15,300 km.
    - There is a total linear loss of 5% HP while the engine deteriorates over the 10,000 km.
    - The engine overhaul fully restores the engine deterioration ‘odometer’, fully restores the oil’s ‘odometer’, and gives an oil change HP boost.
    - The oil deterioration and engine deterioration can overlap (e.g. from 5300 km to 6000 km on the odometer when no oil change or engine overhaul have been performed on a car).

    4) Permanent High Mileage Deterioration:
    - There is a hidden high mileage HP loss that begins around 10,000 km, but may not be visible until about 15,000 km due to the low deterioration rate and PD’s HP rounding issues.
    - The high mileage HP loss is very difficult to calculate due to the lack of used cars like in GT5 and due to the fact that the loss may be as low as 3 or 5 % HP over a few hundred thousand kilometers: e.g. with the Red Bull 2011 Prototype, even with its massive amount of HP (meaning changes happen quicker), the deterioration is only 1 hp every 2806.8 km.
    - Current estimates are that a 3% loss would happen at around 130,000 km; a 5% loss would happen at around 210,000 km.
    - Cars with less HP will drop HP much less evidently and the issue with the way PD rounds HP makes accurate predictions exceptionally tedious.
    - The high mileage HP loss has no indicator light in GT Auto because this HP is a permanent loss, unlike the oil deterioration and engine deterioration HP losses which can always be fully restored.
    - The loss is permanent: unless PD releases Car Restore Tickets that reset mileage to zero in the future like they did in GT5.
    - This loss is unlikely to impact most players since there are no more used cars and most players are unlikely to put 10,000+ kilometers on their cars very often. Also every car can be purchased new besides Anniversary Edition cars.

    Caveat: The GT Auto indicators will not turn on at the same mileage for each car. There will be variation between cars because of the way PD rounds HP. In other words even though Engine Deterioration is happening to a car, the amount of deterioration may not be high enough for the HP to change enough to trigger a light; or the car’s stock HP may be a hidden fraction value such that the HP gets rounded down sooner than you would expect when multiple deterioration types are occurring at once. The lights also often trigger before any HP change is visible to the user. So keep in mind that some variation between cars is to be expected.

    There will also be variation in mileage for any car that has participated in online races with tire wear turned off. Although mileage is gained, the deteriorations are not impacted. The deteriorations function normally when tire wear is turned on. This issue means that cars will appear to trigger the gauges later than expected because there will be extra mileage on the car's odometer that occurred while the deteriorations were frozen.

    Note: All information and data is based on the 1.03-1.04 version of the game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  2. Hastatus

    Hastatus

    Messages:
    720
    The Detailed Evidence With Raw Data and Commentary:

    1- The Stock Oil HP:

    I played a lot of GT5 and while I never really paid attention to when and why there was an HP loss from oil and or engine deterioration I do remember hating how often I had to perform oil changes. I would go into a lobby room online and remember that I had to go back and get an oil change first. They were just so time-consuming and it felt like they shouldn’t be necessary. I wanted my own mechanic on the payroll to do oil changes for me automatically without me having to know about it.

    With GT6 I tried something new which was to complete the game spending as little money as possible. This meant no oil changes. I performed only one oil change in my entire career and didn’t even use them for seasonal events which have all been completed since release without ever having spent a penny on them.

    Anyways, at one point someone told me that stock is considered with the oil change boost and I couldn’t wrap my head around the reasoning behind that statement anymore. I had once naturally assumed that this was correct while I played GT5 because everyone is always saying go get an oil change as soon as you buy a car. As far as I am concerned now, since playing GT6 and having put more critical thought into it, the oil change upgrades the car with a temporary, rather magical, 5% HP boost.

    Cars from the dealership come with stock / OEM oil and HP levels. These stock HP levels are the ones listed in the dealership.

    This stock HP level is also the one that corresponds to those of real life cars: e.g. the HP, before applying limiters, on a real NASCAR car is roughly 820 to 850 HP. The stock NASCAR car which you buy from the dealership in GT6 comes with 849 HP. The new BMW M4 Coupe is listed as having 425 HP in the dealership: both in GT6’s dealership and in the real world.

    The oil GT Auto uses is super exaggerated, almost enchanted, high-performance oil. XP

    Therefore what should be considered stock? A stock car with stock HP is a car between 0 and 5000 km that has NOT had a fresh oil change to boost HP in the past 300 km.


    2 – Are oil changes worth your time?

    Unless you are absolutely set on increasing a car’s HP, no…oil changes are a great waste of time. You can completely avoid them by performing an engine overhaul every 5000 km since the engine starts to deteriorate at 5300 km (300 km after the oil begins to deteriorate) and the overhaul includes an oil change. If you are one of those who think that stock includes the 5% hp boost and you are not allowed to increase HP permanently via an upgrade, then you will have to change your oil every 200 km or so which means up to 25 times per 5000 km! Wouldn’t it be simpler to install an ECU (over similar small upgrade) and apply power limiter? Yes; but then your car definitely wouldn’t be considered stock. Funny how a permanent 5% HP boost is not considered stock, but frequent magical oil changes is still considered stock.

    3 – The oil, rigidity, and engine indicators are impacted by mileage:

    They each have their own independent ‘odometers’. Mileage is not impacted when a courtesy car is supplied for an event. Mileage is not impacted in Arcade Mode even when you use your own car. Career Mode and Seasonal Time Trials where you use your own car do impact mileage. The Test Drive / Free Run mode available via the garage menu does impact mileage.

    Online races also increase mileage, but the deteriorations are only impacted when tire wear is turned on. If the tire wear is turned off, you will still gain mileage but the deteriorations remain frozen and so do not progress. [Thanks to esoxhntr for recognizing this issue. :tup:]


    4 – The Math of the PD Programmers:

    PD seems to do most if not all of its math behind the menu screens using kilometers. It’s obvious in a few places where large whole numbers are used: e.g. body rigidity begins to deteriorate at 500 km.

    There seems to be an issue with the kilometers to miles conversion process: e.g. my total kilometers in my stat screen was 14,546.6 km; When I convert the units in the options menu to miles it says I have 9091.6 miles; HOWEVER when converting using my scientific calculator or online converters this should be 9039.1 miles. PD uses 0.6250 miles = 1 km; but it should be 0.6213 miles = 1 km. Or 1 mile = 1609 meters; but PD uses 1 mile = 1600 meters. Therefore after a while I started doing all my calculations using kilometer units.

    PD does not show us enough decimal places for the HP to make very accurate calculations about what is going on in the background programming. This is clear when changing weight or the power limiter while tuning: often you can move the limiter ticker over several positions before the HP changes (i.e. you are changing the hidden decimal places). Since there is rounding to the nearest HP, the complex calculations required here will sometimes require slightly more intuition in order to ‘see’ how rounded numbers are not actually the numbers interacting with the ones you are working with. I wish PD would just give us a couple of decimal places for HP: they are there after all. XP

    5 – Do the calculations apply the same way to every car?

    Most of my calculations were derived from mileage on the Red Bull 2011 Prototype because I needed a fast car with lots of HP. It would, however, appear that most if not all cars use the same equations and figures for oil, rigidity, and engine deterioration: e.g. the body rigidity begins to deteriorate at 500 km for all vehicles I have so far been able to check: Red Bull Prototype 2011; Veyron ’13; NASCAR cars; M4 Coupé ’14. Until someone is able to show that mileage stats differ for some vehicles (besides the Go-karts which I do not consider cars), it will be assumed that they are generally the same for all cars since the number of cars in GT6 and the time required would be too great to prove. The fact that the first car I chose to test uses whole 5% changes over even 1000, 5000, and 10,000 km units implies the same would hold for all cars.


    6 – The Oil Change HP Boost:

    The oil change boosts HP by 5% over the stock level on all cars:
    NASCAR car – Stock HP = 849 HP – Boosted HP = 892 HP – 43/849 = 0.05
    Veyron ’13 – Stock HP = 1261 HP – Boosted HP = 1324 HP – 63/1261 = 0.05

    The Oil Change boost resets the Oil Deterioration Gauge and the boost can be done anytime.

    There is a myth where you must do the oil change as soon as you have purchased a new car or else you might lose the boost, but this is not true: e.g. I did an oil change on a NASCAR car for the first time after the car had over 1800 PD miles on it and the boost was still 5% bringing the HP up to 892 HP.

    The Oil Change boost lasts for 200 km and then drops linearly 1% (of the HP gain) for every km driven from 200 km to 300 km.

    Early test (in PD miles [before I knew better]) with NASCAR Car:

    1324 hp – 1261 hp = 63 hp boost (5% boost)

    Oil change was performed at 2,064.3 miles on car.
    Drove on Route X = 18.82 PD miles

    HP – Mileage on Car – Distance driven & Total Distance Driven in PD miles
    892 HP – 2,084.2 – 19.9 26.3
    892 HP – 2,104.5 – 20.3 40.2
    892 HP – 2,124.3 – 19.8 60.0
    892 HP – 2,144.7 – 20.4 80.4
    892 HP – 2,164.3 – 19.6 100.0
    892 HP – 2,184.3 – 20.0 120.0 = 193.1 km lost 11 hp
    881 HP – 2,204.6 – 20.3 140.3 = 225.8 km lost 14 hp
    867 HP – 2,224.4 – 19.8 160.1 = 257.6 km lost 12 hp
    855 HP – 2,243.8 – 19.4 179.5 = 288.9 km lost 12 hp
    849 HP – 2,263.0 – 19.2 198.7 = 319.8 km lost 6 hp

    From the above figures I was able to determine vaguely that the HP boost starts to degrade after 193 km and was completely gone by 319 km. I started using km because elsewhere it appeared that km should be used.

    I then confirmed the 100 to 200 km duration and the 200 to 300 km linear deterioration using the Veyron ’13 so that I could win the third Like the Wind Race and earn money while testing, and so that I was using a vehicle with higher HP; the more HP a vehicle has the better it is to test theories because PD doesn’t show any fractions of HP so changes to HP are rounded and not always visible.

    After 6 LTW #3 races I was at 189.7 km total distance driven.

    I decided to drive Willow Springs (Dream Car Championship) for smaller increments: 3.951 km x 4 = 15.804 km.

    Total Distance Driven – HP
    205.8 km – 1261 hp
    221.9 km – 1261 hp
    238.0 km – 1261 hp
    254.1 km – 1261 hp
    270.3 km – 1261 hp
    284.7 km – 1261 hp

    No change in HP? What?! Are there different ranges for different cars? :lol:…No! My experiment was flawed: I forgot to do an oil change to get the boost before I started driving. :O

    After the oil change…

    316.5 km – 1324 hp
    347.7 km – 1324 hp
    379.1 km – 1324 hp
    411.3 km – 1324 hp
    443.1 km – 1324 hp
    474.4 km – 1324 hp
    481.0 km – 1324 hp

    499.4 km – 1324 hp
    Body Rigidity went bad between 499.4 and 500.5 km: i.e. 500 km.
    500.5 km – 1324 hp

    I drove the Route X track ending after I had driven as close to 10 km as possible so intervals would be smaller and more constant (I wish I had noticed odometer on the Bumper View!).

    Total distance – HP – Distance SINCE oil change – Amount of HP lost during interval
    517.9 km – 1323 hp – 201.4 km = -1 hp
    528.1 km – 1317 hp – 211.6 km = -6 hp
    538.2 km – 1310 hp – 221.7 km = -7 hp
    548.4 km – 1304 hp – 231.9 km = -6 hp
    558.5 km – 1297 hp – 242.0 km = -7 hp
    568.5 km – 1291 hp – 252.0 km = -6 hp
    578.6 km – 1285 hp – 262.1 km = -6 hp
    588.6 km – 1279 hp – 272.1 km = -6 hp
    598.7 km – 1273 hp – 282.2 km = -6 hp
    608.7 km – 1266 hp – 292.2 km = -7 hp
    616.1 km – 1261 hp – 299.6 km = -5 hp
    616.8 km – 1261 hp – 300.3 km = -0 hp

    1324 hp – 1261 hp = 63 hp boost (5% boost)
    From 200 to 300 km = 100 km
    1% of 63 hp = 0.63 hp lost per km
    or 6.3 hp lost every 10 km (notice the rounded 6 and 7 HPs above; there are more 6s because the hidden fraction is closer to 6 than 7).

    A linear drop is one where points plotted on a graph form a straight line.

    There is clearly a 1% drop for every 1 km driven in this 200 to 300 km following an oil change boost. 1% for each of the 100 kms was an easy thing for PD to program [kind of like the Super Class races where every 1 second = 1 minute of time making for easy to program 24-minute races.].
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
  3. Hastatus

    Hastatus

    Messages:
    720
    7 – Collecting Raw Data with the Red Bull 2011 Prototype on Cruise Control:

    I began by driving my AMG VGT past 2000 km to see if any of the deterioration gauges would change, but they did not: so I figured I should pull out the Red Bull Prototype 2011 and use the GT5 rubber-band trick to lap the Indy Course in the Test Drive/Free Run mode available in the garage menu. This way I could let the car build up mileage while I was sleeping or doing other things. The track is 4.023 km long. Since this mode records the number of laps I could stop and check my mileage at specific intervals: e.g. just before and after 500 km when the body rigidity indicator turns yellow. I knew that the next changes did not occur until after 2000 km (due to my AMGT VGT which had not triggered any other light besides the rigidity at 500 km).

    Indy Course = 4.023 km
    42.2 – 40.1 second laps are possible using this method; as HP drops 44-45 second laps will occur at later stages.

    Distances in km are listed first unless otherwise specified.

    346.7
    499.1
    500.1 km – “Body rigidity has begun to deteriorate.”

    2002.1 km – Nothing changed yet.
    2464.4
    2495.5
    2994.9
    2999.8
    3000.2 1556 hp
    5003.7 – Watched oil indicator pop up in my car: “Oil condition has begun to deteriorate.”

    25 oil changes vs 1 oil change every 5000 km: oil change boost is a waste of time. Just buy an ECU and use limiter or redefine your understanding of stock.

    5096.8 1549 hp
    5104.4 1548 hp - lost 7 to 8 hp over 100 km [0 to 100 km]
    5222.6 1539 hp - 17 hp lost over 222.6 km
    5288.1 1533 hp
    5295.7 1532 hp
    5299.2 1532 hp - lost 24 hp over 300 km [0 to 300 km] = about 8 hp per 100 km

    Prediction:
    Assuming 5% will be the total loss: 5% of 1556 = 77.8
    Losing 8 hp per 100 km means 972.5 km will be end of loss and full red oil indicator.

    5300.0 1532 hp
    5301.2 1532 hp “Engine condition has begun to deteriorate.” GT Auto oil indicator begins slowly turning from yellow to red.

    5401.7 1523 hp - lost 9 hp over this 100 km
    5490.2 1515 hp
    5499.8 1514 hp
    5500.4 1514 hp - lost 9 hp over this 100 km
    5600.5 1505 hp - lost 9 hp over this 100 km
    5701.0 1497 hp - lost 8 hp over this 100 km
    5840.4 1485 hp
    5895.9 1480 hp
    5900.6 1480 hp - lost 17 hp over past 200 km = 8.5 or 8 and 9

    Experimented with an oil change (before using back-up save file): “Oil is in good condition” = 1629 hp; but the full 5% boost should be 1633.8 hp so I did an engine overhaul and the full proper 1634 hp was reached. This proved that some of the hp loss must be due to the engine deterioration stat. The linear drop of oil deterioration started at 8 hp for each of the first three 100 km intervals before the engine light came on. Then I started getting extra 1 hp every now and then over the 100 km intervals.

    1480 hp + 149 hp = 1629 hp (without Overhaul)
    149 hp = 74 (oil boost) + 75 (oil restore)
    1480 x 1.05 = 1554 from oil hp boost
    The boost gives 5% boost on whatever the current HP is.
    That means that 75 hp was from Oil Restoration. Total Oil Deterioration is 5% = 1556 x 0.05 = 77.8 hp. Getting close to end of Oil Deterioration.

    5943.9 1476 hp
    5949.3 1475 hp
    5950.3 1475 hp
    5962.6 1474 hp
    5974.1 1473 hp “Oil change recommended.”

    The oil change indicator came on as predicted: the linear drop in hp due to the oil deterioration over the first three 100 km units predicted this point if the total oil deterioration loss is 5%. There is a rounding factor that makes things appear sooner than they really do.

    Explanation for early trigger points: The indicator comes on before the 6000 km because the fractions of the HP are rounded. So the next full HP occurs at 0.5 and gets rounded up. The trigger looks at the rounded values rather than the hidden fractions.

    The Engine deterioration hp loss going on which started overlapping with the oil deterioration is lower and so has a lesser total loss or is prolonged.

    The oil deterioration loss clearly stops following the activation of the red oil indicator.

    The total loss is 83 hp; the predicted oil deterioration loss is 77.8 hp (i.e. 5%); there has been a 5.2 hp drop due to engine over the 700 km overlap.

    5.2 hp over 700 km = 7.43 hp per 1000 km = 0.7428 per 100 km (the extra 1 hps)

    Prediction: 73.91 hp / 0.7428 hp x 100 km = 9,950 km; If the engine deterioration totals 5% (of 1478.2 hp following 5% oil deterioration loss), then at the estimated rate above the end of the deterioration should happen at 10,473km after it started at 5,300: i.e. at about 15,250 km on the car’s odometer.

    5993.7 1473 hp
    5999.6 1473 hp
    6098.6 1472 hp
    6197.5 1472 hp
    6526.9 1469 hp
    6558.6 1469 hp
    6825.9 1467 hp
    6958.5 1466 hp
    7266.2 1463 hp
    7518.1 1461 hp

    11 to 12 hp loss rate over 1524.4 km (7.2 to 7.9 hp per 1000 km)

    GT5 had a drop of 5% which started at 5000 km and ended at 15000 km.
    Since GT6 engine deterioration starts at 5,300 km, then perhaps the end of the loss will occur at 15,300, which would match estimate of 15,250km.

    Will have to check and see whether there is an interaction between the oil change and delaying the engine deterioration. Must try doing oil changes to see if there is a delay in the start of the engine light turning yellow and a slowing down in the HP loss rate. That 300 km delay in GT6 means something. Perhaps PD just didn’t want Engine and Oil lights to go off at the same time.

    Since there has been a complete removal of the 3% engine break-in boost and a complete removal of high mileage used cars, there may not be a high mileage HP deterioration. [Spoilers: Proved wrong later!]

    8080.1 1457 hp
    8637.7 1453 hp – engine gauge is obviously turning more red now.
    10134.2 1442 hp – engine gauge is very red; rigidity gauge is slightly orange.
    10201.4 1441 hp
    10246.9 1441 hp
    10251.3 1441 hp
    10252.6 1441 hp
    10254.6 1441 hp
    10256.7 1441 hp
    10258.8 1441 hp
    10260.8 1441 hp
    10262.9 1441 hp
    10264.9 1441 hp “Engine maintenance is recommended.”

    Engine light flashes red just like the oil light.

    10287.7 1441 hp

    10,300 km would be approximately 5,000 km since engine light first came on.

    10357.7 1440 hp – hp is still dropping?

    10997.0 1435 hp
    11371.1 1432 hp

    Tested engine restoration; result was 1634 HP which is the perfect max amounts for both oil change boost + engine restoration. The continued hp loss must belong to the engine deterioration and not high mileage deterioration.

    1556 hp – 77.8 hp (5%) = 1478.2 hp
    1478.2 hp – 73.9hp (5%) = 1404.3 hp

    We still have a ways to go before the end of the engine deterioration even though the engine light has already turned red (maxed out).

    5,300 km to 10,264 km = 4,964 km
    37.2 hp from engine deterioration has been lost over that distance. This is very close to half of 73.9 hp. 10,264 km + 4,964 km = 15,228 km. End of engine deterioration should still be about 15,300 km. As predicted several times before.

    11336.7 1433 hp
    11496.6 1432 hp
    11501.5 1431 hp
    11748.6 1430 hp
    12313.0 1426 hp
    12772.9 1423 hp
    12976.8 1421 hp
    13003.4 1421 hp
    14541.4 1409 hp
    14875.7 1407 hp
    15003.6 1406 hp

    1404 hp is when there would have been no High Mileage Deterioration
    I missed the mileage for 1404 hp but it would likely have been in the late 15200s.
    15300.8 1403 hp – Significant shift in rate of hp loss after this point. Did high mileage deterioration overlap with engine deterioration?

    High mileage deterioration might overlap with Engine Deterioration. 2 hp would be missing from engine overhaul at 1403 hp at 15300 km.

    Calculations must consider 1404 as end point for Engine Deterioration

    1478.2 hp - 73.91 hp (i.e. 5% loss) = 1404.3

    15394.1 1403 hp
    15400.3 1403 hp
    15488.7 1403 hp
    15499.1 1403 hp
    15500.2 1403 hp
    15599.2 1403 hp

    15600.2 1403 hp – hp has not dropped at all in 300 km (73.9 hp per 10,000 km = 0.739 hp per 100 km for engine deterioration; this is definitely a new rate for something new)

    15702.4 1402 hp
    15803.1 1402 hp
    15900.4 1402 hp
    15997.0 1402 hp
    16001.0 1402 hp
    16253.1 1402 hp
    16554.4 1402 hp
    16885.5 1402 hp – Over 1000km without hp change.
    17032.3 1402 hp
    17445.7 1402 hp
    17540.0 1402 hp
    18031.7 1402 hp – Rigidity gauge is very red now.
    18371.8 1402 hp
    18907.8 1401 hp – hp definitely drops very slowly compared to earlier.
    18954.2 1401 hp
    18985.3 1401 hp
    18998.8 1401 hp
    19000.3 1401 hp
    19101.1 1401 hp
    19297.7 1401 hp
    19306.1 1401 hp
    19553.7 1401 hp
    19556.3 1401 hp – Why did I bother to include pp in these lists? :odd: – Removed.
    19558.3 1401 hp
    19560.3 1401 hp
    19562.3 1401 hp - “Body rigidity restoration is recommended.”

    Restoration test: When an engine overhaul is performed on the 1401 hp vehicle the result is 1630 hp (not 1634 hp; Stock HP = 1556 and Boosted HP = 1634 (5% boost = +78 hp)):
    1634 hp – 1630 hp = 4 hp (remember PD rounds: really could be 1633.6 – 1630.4 = 3.2 hp instead of 4; so you must be comfortable with a little discrepancy 1404 might look like the start of High Mileage but be closer to 1405 than you are made aware. o.0)

    4 HP has been permanently lost from the vehicle (probably closer to 3.5).

    There definitely is a hidden high mileage deterioration stat.

    Going back 3-4 HP and you arrive at about 15,300 km when the obvious change in rate of HP loss occurred: engine deterioration ceased and high mileage engine wear took over.

    1401 hp + oil change = 1549 hp [+148 hp = 73.9 (total engine deterioration restored) + 74.1 (5% oil hp boost on 1474.9 (= 1401 + 73.9); actual = 1548.7)].

    1549 hp + engine overhaul = 1630 hp [(+81 hp = 77.8 (total oil deterioration restored) + 3.2 (5% oil hp boost on 77.8 hp; actual = 3.9)].

    If an engine overhaul is performed on 1401 HP you would get:
    (1401 hp + 73.9 hp + 77.8 hp) + 0.05*1552.6 hp =
    1552.6 hp + 77.6 hp =
    1630.2 hp

    The data showed that 77.8 HP was lost due to oil deterioration.
    The data showed that 73.9 HP was lost due to engine deterioration.

    Each of these is a compound factor of 5% taken from the original stock HP:
    0.05 * 1556 hp = 77.8 hp
    1556 hp – 77.8 hp = 1478.2 hp (after the oil deterioration)
    0.05 * 1478.2 hp = 73.9 hp
    1478.2 hp – 73.9 hp = 1404.3 hp (after the engine deterioration)

    That the factors for each loss is definitely 5% is shown above where performing an oil change before an engine overhaul restores 73.9 HP instead of the 77.8 HP; and when the engine overhaul is performed the 77.8 HP is restored instead of 73.9 HP.

    This also indicates, as was suggested by the incredibly observant Griffith500 (posts 49 & 52), that these factors do not follow any set order as I originally believed. The deterioration and restoration HP amounts do not have to coincide with the same named process (oil & engine). In seeing past the illogical nature of swapped amounts Griffith500 was able to come up with a simple formula that unites all the processes at play:

    A Formula Uniting All the Deteriorations (courtesy of Griffith500):

    The oilFactor ranges from 0.95 to 1.05.
    - The oil is stock at 1.00.
    - There is an oil HP boost up to 1.05.
    - There is oil deterioration down to 0.95.

    The engineFactor ranges from 0.95 to 1.00.
    - The engine is stock at 1.00.
    - There is engine deterioration down to 0.95.

    The mileageFactor ranges from M to 1.00.
    - There is no high mileage deterioration at 1.00.
    - There is high mileage deterioration down to M: this may be 0.95 but remains unknown for now.

    Since it is possible to know all the parts of the equation besides the mileageFactor, it is possible to calculate the lowest value for M (also Griffith500's idea). The current lowest observed value for M is 0.99623 at 24064.6 km (Red Bull 2011 Prototype, 1399 hp, Hastatus; [1399 = 1556 * 0.95 * 0.95 * M]).


    Approximate results for the Red Bull 2011 Prototype:
    500 km – Rigidity begins to deteriorate.
    5000 km – Oil begins to deteriorate.
    5300 km – Engine begins to deteriorate.
    6000 km – Oil change is recommended and oil deterioration stops (5% loss).
    10000 km – Engine overhaul is recommended, but engine deterioration continues.
    10000 km – High mileage deterioration begins (3% or 5% loss?).
    15300 km – Engine deterioration ends (5% loss)
    20000 km – Body rigidity restoration is recommended.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  4. Hastatus

    Hastatus

    Messages:
    720
    8 – Predicting the total high mileage deterioration loss and distance on the RB Prototype 2011:

    In GT5 previous people have calculated that there is a 5% oil deterioration and a 5% engine deterioration (via the GT Auto indicator which can be restored via an engine overhaul, as opposed to the engine wear caused by High Mileage Deterioration): http://www.mygranturismo.net/article.php?id=15 and https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/engine-break-in-wear-overhaul-and-oil-change.182613/ . The rates of GT6 seem to match those of GT5. Estimates of the high mileage deterioration in GT5 vary from 3% to 5%. Predicting the amount of HP loss in GT6 is not possible due to the lack of used cars with pre-existing mileage until someone drives far enough to see the deterioration cease. Even if one assumes 3% or 5% (and it may be different altogether) it is still very difficult to predict the distance over which it will occur due to PD’s habit of rounding the HP so we cannot see the fractions. The following is my attempt to approximate the rate of the deterioration and use it to extrapolate the distance over which it occurs at different sums (3% or 5%):

    What we need is to get an exact distance to the decimal place from when one HP appears to when the next HP appears. Whether it is a rounded fraction or not, it will be exactly 1 hp difference over this distance. I continued to drive my Red Bull 2011 Prototype:

    19585.6 1401 hp
    19791.5 1401 hp
    20614.0 1401 hp
    20753.2 1401 hp
    21170.0 1401 hp
    21217.0 1401 hp
    21217.9 1401 hp
    21219.3 1401 hp
    21220.3 1401 hp
    21221.0 1401 hp
    21221.8 1401 hp
    21223.0 1401 hp
    21224.0 1401 hp
    21225.8 1401 hp
    21227.1 1401 hp
    21229.6 1401 hp
    21231.4 1401 hp
    21233.3 1401 hp
    21235.2 1401 hp
    21237.0 1401 hp
    21238.9 1401 hp
    21240.8 1401 hp
    21242.7 1401 hp
    21244.5 1401 hp
    21246.4 1401 hp
    21248.3 1401 hp
    21250.2 1401 hp
    21252.0 1401 hp
    21253.9 1401 hp
    21255.8 1401 hp
    21257.7 1400 hp – Change in hp happened between 21256.7 and 21257.7 km.
    21274.0 1400 hp
    21605.0 1400 hp
    21614.4 1400 hp
    23008.7 1400 hp
    23834.1 1400 hp
    24016.6 1400 hp
    24053.9 1400 hp
    24055.5 1400 hp
    24057.7 1400 hp
    24059.6 1400 hp
    24061.4 1400 hp
    24063.3 1400 hp
    24064.6 1399 hp – Change in hp happened between 24063.4 and 24064.6 km.
    24083.6 1399 hp

    2807.9 km to 2805.7 km is the maximum to minimum gap between HP changes assuming that they are linear for the High Mileage Deterioration.

    Working backwards with the median: 2806.8 km.

    1401 hp should appear at 21257.7 – 2806.8 = 18450.9 km
    actual change between 18371.8 = 1402 hp and 18907.8 = 1401 hp

    1402 hp should appear at 18450.9 – 2806.8 = 15644.1 km
    actual change between 15600.2 = 1403 hp and 15702.4 = 1402 hp

    1403 hp should appear at 15644.1 – 2806.8 = 12837.3 km
    actual change between 15003.6 = 1406 hp and 15300.8 = 1403 hp

    1404 hp should appear at 12837.3 – 2806.8 = 10030.5 km

    Both 1401 HP and 1402 HP fit perfectly in the predicted area: when there was no engine deterioration.

    The predictions for 1403 HP and 1404 HP assume no other HP modifying stat is present but the Engine Deterioration ended at 15,300 km. In other words it 'looks like' the 1403 HP and the 1404 HP positions occurred later than they should have, but you have to remember that there was a bunch of extra HP (engine HP) that had not stopped being removed yet.

    This would suggest that the High Mileage Deterioration overlapped with the Engine Deterioration and it may have started at about 10,000 km.

    This means stock HP can be maintained with an engine overhaul at 5,000 km which will be good until 10,000 km. After 10,000 km High Mileage Deterioration starts eating away at the car’s stock HP and will be noticeable by 12,837 km.



    The following shows that the High Mileage Deterioration will be applied after Oil and Engine Deterioration have already been applied to the Stock HP:

    OIL + OIL/ENGINE
    (5000 km to 5300 km) + (5300 km to 5974 km)
    24 + 59 = 77.8 + 5.2

    OIL/ENGINE + ENGINE before light + ENGINE after light
    (5300 km to 5974 km) + (5974 km to 10264 km) + (10264 km to 15300 km = 1441 hp – 1404 hp)
    59 + 32 + 37 = 77.8 + 50.2

    5% of 1478.2 = 73.9
    59 + 32 + 37 = 73.9 + 54.1

    50.2 + 24 = 74.2 < 77.8
    54.1 + 24 = 78.1 close enough to 77.8

    This means that engine deterioration is 5% of the HP after 5% oil deterioration has been applied.

    This should mean that high mileage deterioration should be 5% of 1404 = 70.2.

    High Mileage Deterioration distance estimates: i.e. what the final odometer reading on the car will be when the high mileage deterioration has maxed out:

    1 hp per 2806.8 km

    3% of 1404.3 = 42.1 hp | 1362.2 hp at 128,166 km

    5% of 1404.3 = 70.2 hp | 1334.1 hp at 207,037 km


    I would wager a guess of 5% High Mileage Deterioration over 200,000 km after passing the 10,000 km mark (when the HP starts to deteriorate): resulting in a low of 1334 HP at 210,000 km on the odometer.

    Only massive amounts of time or the introduction of a used car dealership will tell if my predictions shall have been shown to be close. o.0



    9 – Oil changes do not impact the engine deterioration stat:

    I used my NASCAR car to test whether or not the oil changes could delay engine deterioration.
    I predict that Oil Changes do not have an impact in delaying the Engine Deterioration.
    I predict that the Engine Deterioration will begin at 5300 km. If so, then the this will support that the deteriorations start at the same mileage for any car: with slight variations based on PD’s HP rounding effect.

    3908.4 892 hp
    4006.3 871 hp
    4734.1 849 hp
    4990.6 849 hp
    5001.2 849 hp
    5256.9 849 hp
    5299.4 849 hp
    5300.0 849 hp
    5301.3 849 hp - no light? Just when I thought I was done! :rolleyes:
    5318.8 849 hp - ???

    If no Engine Deterioration occurs at 5300 km it could be because: 1) there is a different mileage trigger for this car; 2) oil changes prevent engine deterioration; or 3) it could be due to PD’s HP rounding.

    I put away the NASCAR car for a bit…


    I decided to go get the Red Bull 2010 Prototype:
    Stock HP = 1482 hp
    Boosted HP = 1556 hp (looks familiar doesn’t it? 2011 Prototype has a 5% boost in HP over the 2010 Prototype: PD loves 5%)

    Did an oil change at 0.0 km.
    Did another oil change at 304.3 km.

    Prediction: Oil light should come on at 5304.3 km instead of 5000 km.
    If oil changes delay engine deterioration: Engine light should come on after 5300 km probably at 5604.3 km.

    4987.1 1482 hp
    5001.0 1482 hp
    5148.9 1482 hp
    5197.1 1482 hp
    5203.5 1482 hp – no changes to gauges
    5264.9 1482 hp – no changes to gauges
    5274.3 1482 hp – engine light comes on regardless of oil changes.


    I returned to the NASCAR:

    5318.8
    5323.0
    5324.7
    5333.4
    5353.2
    5361.0 - no engine light
    5362.0 - engine light is now present
    5367.0

    It appears like there is a delay in the engine light coming on for the NASCAR car, but you have to imagine/hypothesize what is going on in the background. There is no delay in the start of the deterioration, there is a delay in the rounded HP being visible and indicator lights are based on similar rounded figures.

    Compare:
    Red Bull 2010 Prototype triggers engine light at 5274 km.
    NASCAR car triggers engine light at 5367 km.

    That’s a difference of 83 km.
    5% of 1482 hp = 74.1 hp
    5% of 849 hp = 42.5 hp

    If the total distance of the engine deterioration loss is 10,000 km, and the loss is linear, then it will be a loss of 0.00741 HP per km for the Red Bull and 0.00425 HP per km for the NASCAR car.

    It will take 68 km for the Red Bull to reach 0.5 HP for rounding to trigger HP change.
    It will take 118 km for the NASCAR car to reach 0.5 HP for rounding to trigger HP change.

    The point is that it will take longer for the deterioration to show up as significant enough to trigger HP rounding and the light gauges when the car has a lower stock HP.

    Then you have to remember that the HP before the deterioration is also fractional, so sometimes a lower HP car can still trigger the light sooner. So cars will trigger the engine light around 5300 km but there will be a rounding difference that cannot be predicted for with each car.

    [Edit Feb 10th: I have since learned that mileage gained online with tire wear off does not impact the deteriorations. I participated in a race or two and so this too would have delayed the triggering of the engine light from the expected 5300 km range.]


    10 – To err is human. I’m not a machine and will likely have made mistakes. If I have please let me know. And...moreover, I consider that a Jeep must be added to Gran Turismo! Thanks, Hastatus.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
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  5. FussyFez

    FussyFez

    Messages:
    1,440
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Excellent stuff. Well laid out, with obvious genuine testing and research.

    Love the gif with the different mileage and status messages/colours.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
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  6. mtsmtts

    mtsmtts

    Messages:
    87
    Location:
    Brazil
    Good one man. Really good.
     
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  7. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

    Messages:
    2,497
    Location:
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    Oil changes shouldn't add the magical 5% HP you talked about. It used to be a cool feature I guess, but it should just be done away with. It's far too annoying and pointless, IMO. Same goes for body and engine overhauls.

    A better implementation would be to add actual mechanical and body damage, where if you shunt hard enough or downshift too fast and spin the engine up way past it's capabilites, then you would need engine overhauls and body/chassis restorations.
     
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  8. Flaco13

    Flaco13

    Messages:
    1,505
    Location:
    Uruguay


    I made something similar with a Evoque, got about 18.000km now. I probably had never found out about the high mileage deterioration though. So thank you very much, and ... ^ what Michael Fassbender said!

    I think the 5% increase should be there. Doesn´t the game explain how the oil from gt-auto is one of a higher viscosity, kind of like a 10W60 maybe plus additives, thats how I always understood it and that would very well increase power(edit: at least on normal road cars).
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
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  9. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

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    I think you're mistaken. First, no motor oil in the world would give you a 5% power increase. If it did, it would be the only oil anyone ever bought and the rest of them would be out of business. Just for example, my 2014 Fiesta ST is rated at 197hp. If oil could give me 5%hp gain, that would put me at 206.85hp. That's almost 10hp, the same increase people are getting in the real world with an OTS 93octane ECU tune from the COBB Access Port.

    Second, higher viscosity oil robs horsepower. Think about it, is it easier to walk through water or syrup? Lower viscosity oils provide less friction. Less friction = better fuel economy and power output.
     
    crazyfool1367 and Hottracer88 like this.
  10. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    Messages:
    28,424
    Location:
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    You're the man Hastatus:cheers: I'm going to recommend this thread be stickied!!:idea:
     
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  11. jimipitbull

    jimipitbull

    Messages:
    2,993
    Location:
    Australia
    Closer to 3% increase in max and average hp/torque. Apparently.

    http://www.torcousa.com/innov-lub-hp.html

    Honda Civic dyno test results

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Raggadish

    Raggadish

    Messages:
    605
    Hastatus, are you even human or are you some number crunching robot from the future? Well done, robot....errr man!:)
     
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  13. Devil240Z

    Devil240Z

    Messages:
    862
    Location:
    United States
    thats really good work. I don't think I would ever put that many miles on one car. unless we had an event creator where I could make a 100 race series or something.
     
  14. hessi

    hessi Premium

    Messages:
    154
    That would have been me, I think. And now I stand corrected. Very well laid out, kind sir.

    Makes it difficult to take Online Events as well as GTP WRS serious anymore, since all of them consider the magical Oil Change a normal change to make a car 'proper' stock. Damn you! ;-)
     
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  15. Flaco13

    Flaco13

    Messages:
    1,505
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    The only thing I was mistaken was to confuse higher/lower viscosity.

    I never claimed a better motor oil increase 5% power IRL, I said it increases power.

    The 5% is a formula in the game.
     
  16. YZF

    YZF

    Messages:
    820
    Location:
    Lithuania
    "The Oil Change boost lasts for 200 km and then drops linearly 1% (of the HP gain) for every km driven from 200 km to 300 km."

    drops 1% from total car power output or 1% from the boost (e.g. 1% from ~50hp)?

    If it's from total power output, then you lose all your boost in 1 lap?
     
  17. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

    Messages:
    2,497
    Location:
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    Given that those are pretty graphs put together by a company to sell their oil over other proven brands, and not actual dyno graphs proving their test results, I'm going to have to call BS. Also, dyno runs can vary by a few HP pull to pull, so that proves nothing.
     
  18. jimipitbull

    jimipitbull

    Messages:
    2,993
    Location:
    Australia
    Those pretty graphs have been signed off by an independent certified consulting firm. A quick google yields plenty of similar results from a range of sources.

    Use Oil of Olay on your 2014 Fiesta for all I care. Paint a pretty graph of your opinion.
     
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  19. eran0004

    eran0004

    Messages:
    8,677
    Good stuff :tup:

     
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  20. Maddens Raiders

    Maddens Raiders Premium

    Messages:
    223
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Hastatus - man you've got status and a lot of time! Awesome post!

    I wonder if PD will ever "hot patch" the values of the rigidity deterioration as far as the km driven? I know in GT5 they were spaced much further apart than they are now even though there was no indicator. The rule for me back then was to add rigidity anytime I did an overhaul or if I saw one of my race cars reach ~ 5,000km driven (I rarely ever did it on my street cars as I hardly ran them in endurance situations).

    I really hope they do address this soon as I'm spending a fortune just to keep my LMP and GT cars up to good racing shape (I know this isn't far from reality in this regard :lol:) but I don't want to spend money just like in real life.. I just want to have a great time racing whilst not worrying that I'm rapidly deteriorating my car and will have to go to the shop sooner than later... for me can't we just take it back to GT5 intervals for body/rigidity work? :gtplanet:
     
  21. esoxhntr

    esoxhntr

    Messages:
    1,291
    Location:
    Canada
    nicely done

    only thing i will add is that online, mileage only 'counts' towards oil/engine/body deterioration if tire wear is enabled.

    i cannot comment on offline.
     
  22. Sier_Pinski

    Sier_Pinski

    Messages:
    657
    Location:
    United States
    Relevant to our ongoing discussion about the body rigidity deterioration being "way too fast":

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...rates-way-too-fast.292723/page-5#post-9094147

    The one interesting thing I learned about your post is that:

    Which means that the rigidity may actually be working normally in terms of mileage. However, users still complain that their cars are still undriveable after the first 500 KM. I'm guessing that the effects of 'slight' deterioration may be too high.
     
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  23. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

    Messages:
    2,497
    Location:
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    I could almost respect your post, if not for the second part.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
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  24. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77

    Messages:
    11,994
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    Well, it doesn't really matter what we consider "stock". I race pretty much exclusively online with tuning prohibited which means I can't add any parts to the car, I can only adjust brake bias and power limiter. However, I can do an oil change which will increase my power by 5% and I'll still be allowed on track. If I'm in a tuning prohibited room where everyone is in the same car and they've all done the "magical oil change" and I have not done it, I am at an automatic disadvantage to everyone else in the room.

    Whether or not we think this makes sense is neither here nor there. The fact is that changing oil in GT games gives you a magical boost and if you run in tuning prohibited spec-race rooms you're going to be at a disadvantage if you don't do it, simple as that.

    Nice thread and stats, lots of hard work. But I disagree with your analysis on this particular part of the topic.
     
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  25. Devil240Z

    Devil240Z

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    862
    Location:
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    not sure if you said(lot of reading to do still) but my question is what is the total potential loss of power in a car? say a car has 100hp and you drove it for an insane distance how much power could it lose total? is there a limit?
     
  26. Flaco13

    Flaco13

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    1,505
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    Well, whenever I enter a room with tuning prohibited one make races etc. And I don´t own a matching car, what I have to do is leave, buy, and come back. In that time I would have done the oil change, because I know I can, and I´m sure those waiting for me in that room have all done it just aswell. Since they were kind enough to wait for me they would have done so if I had said "guys I got this car but didn´t change the oil, mind to wait with the race for me for a minute?"

    The abillity to perform oil changes in online rooms would be great, and solve the whole problem IMO. If they were to categorize oilchange as tuning, people would soon demand a way to change the oil back to stock.
     
    hEDpH81 likes this.
  27. Devil240Z

    Devil240Z

    Messages:
    862
    Location:
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    GT auto stuff should be available in the car settings sheet. that way you can do maintenance in an online lobby.
     
  28. Hastatus

    Hastatus

    Messages:
    720
    Thanks for all the compliments, but really you should be thanking my old fatty PS3 for enduring days and nights of grinding my Red Bull around the walls of Indy without ever crashing (the system crashing that is). ;)

    Yeah I knew I wanted at least one photo of something to distract from the walls of text, but I didn't know which one, so I just included a bunch of them. Although I wish I had a screen capture device, my amateur photos turned out decent enough. :D

    You lose 1% of the HP you gained from the boost per km: i.e. 0.005 HP lost per km. 1% loss from total HP would result in a 0 HP car after 300 km just as you say.

    Nice find, if you're right. I haven't spent very much time playing online yet. I don't recall tire wear being on in the room I was in when I checked my mileage. I will definitely double check this and edit the info if true. Thanks.

    Yeah I know nothing about rigidity. I know I thought I felt a change at 500 km on only a few cars but I'm not sensitive enough to know if its real or just my own inconsistencies. But then again I could have sworn that the GT-R N24 GT Academy '12 felt stiff for the first lap of the Nurburgring and then became loose/easier to steer: I even reloaded my save file and it felt like it did the same thing the second time.

    While it is interesting data, I have serious doubts about such experiments. It reminds me too much of Z-Max commercials when I was a kid [Tip: Do not put Z-MAX in an old engine which was around when fuel was leaded! :sick:]. I've heard of times when racers might use oils as close to zero weight as possible to gain 1% HP, but they risk burning out their motors when they do; AND the only reason they risk this is during qualifiers when they risk it in order to get in; then they usually revert to regular oil for the actual race. Most engineers would worry about designing a motor to give whatever HP they want, around a specific oil type, rather than rely on oil manufacturers to design oil to improve their engines.

    I have no intention of trying to change online rules. I am definitely 100 % for evenly matched cars in online competitions. I'm just trying to comment on the variable definitions the term 'stock': part of me is a linguist and I don't like when definitions of words mutate with the addition of inaccuracies because the original meaning of the word gets diluted.

    Is there a limit? Probably; but we have no evidence for a limit because no one is likely to have reached it by driving hundreds of thousands of kilometers. If PD has followed GT5 and used a 3% or 5% high mileage deterioration then the following would be the two possibilities:

    Total loss of power from oil deterioration, engine deterioration, and high mileage deterioration =

    (original HP - (original HP - (original HP - (original HP x 0.05)) x 0.05)) x 0.03)
    OR
    (original HP - (original HP - (original HP - (original HP x 0.05)) x 0.05)) x 0.05)

    So that, for example, a 100 HP car's final power would be

    100 - 5 - 4.75 - 2.70 = 87.5 hp (a total loss of 12.5%)
    OR
    100 - 5 - 4.75 - 4.51 = 85.7 hp (a total loss of 14.3%)

    Before my experiment I averaged 160 kmph in my stats. 210,000 km / 160 km hour = 1,312 hours (54 days)... in one car ... would be a little too much for anyone to consider reaching in this game. :crazy: Most people are unlikely to reach the start of the high mileage deterioration at 10,000 km.
     
  29. Flaco13

    Flaco13

    Messages:
    1,505
    Location:
    Uruguay
    Good I´m not like most people. I always had a couple of cars I tried to get an insane distance on, used cars with already a certain mileage on was a big help of course, and so was B-spec, especially in GT4 where you could send the Bob to do free runs. All that is gone and I´m still crazy enough to do that.

    Have you experienced a sudden increase of power coming out of nowhere? Last runs on RouteX I was getting 10th of seconds faster all of a sudden for about 3 consecutive laps, about 17.600km run at that time.
     

    Attached Files:

  30. Ryk

    Ryk

    Messages:
    3,144
    Location:
    England
    Yeah Hastatus - You are a mean tyrant torturing your PS3 like that.

    Lots of numbers so people can see the work. Excellent and methodical, are just two words that don't really convey the tremendous weight of information you have published. Well done.

    Wonder if when PD will start to charge real life money for our Oil changes... just a penny, you won't miss that...
     
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