GT6 - Could we have cause to get our money back?

[silverstar189]

Hi all, like many others I'm really disappointed by all the content which was promised and then never delivered. I'm wondering if anyone here with legal knowledge or experience reckons if we have cause to claim a refund for a product that isn't as described? Perhaps a class action of some sort?

 

[mcfizzle]

No.

 

[Bluntified]

Nope, buyer beware! Most laws actually state a year is sufficient time to make good on a promise.

 

[Hypergolem]

It is not that I want the money back... it is more that I want to make it clear to PD that this situation is ridiculous.
False advertising, promises not kept, lack of communication... and on top of that they are mocking us with documentaries about how great Kazunori is and news about where he will race next... I'm seriously pissed!

Hi all, like many others I'm really disappointed by all the content which was promised and then never delivered. I'm wondering if anyone here with legal knowledge or experience reckons if we have cause to claim a refund for a product that isn't as described? Perhaps a class action of some sort?

I really wish there was the ground for a class action!

 

[Kraftwabe]

Get yourself a lawyer!
As far as I'm concerned: No!

 

[fastfox400]

Actually you cant get your money back, but a class action can be filed for misrepsentation of a product, and false advertising.

 

[Famine]

Hi all, like many others I'm really disappointed by all the content which was promised and then never delivered. I'm wondering if anyone here with legal knowledge or experience reckons if we have cause to claim a refund for a product that isn't as described? Perhaps a class action of some sort?

No. The product is as described (well, at least for UK buyers it is).

However, you can get your money back by taking it back to the shop for a refund.

 

[JMoney]

Stop whining about it, buying the game was your mistake. Even if it was falsely advertised, you bought it. You should have read a few reviews before you did.

 

[Davoxx]

Ok @Famine I'm agree with you at this point but can we claim for all empty promises as false advertisement or something else ?
You can always find something in law so I'm pretty sure "we" can go the court to sue PD but for what .... I don't know unfortunately ????

 

[Famine]

Ok @Famine I'm agree with you at this point but can we claim for all empty promises as false advertisement or something else ?
You can always find something in law so I'm pretty sure "we" can go the court to sue PD but for what .... I don't know unfortunately ????

Not at this point.

To UK buyers it was always made clear that the things not in the game weren't in the game yet, so buying the game thinking they were in it is a case of caveat emptor. It's not necessarily the buyers' fault automatically though - many outlets (the supermarkets particularly) were not making that distinction and I'd say you do have recourse under SOGA* for a full refund from any shop that did not tell you that some of GT6's features were not in the game until it was updated to include them.

The features touted as arriving in future updates must, though, arrive in future updates. If they don't then yes, that's grounds for legal action - but no time period was ever given so we must simply wait until GT6's online service and support is stopped before that can be determined. While it'll be a long old wait, we have received some of the features (even if they weren't necessarily the most anticipated).

*Under the Sale of Goods Act, your purchase contract is between you and the vendor, not the manufacturer. If the vendor makes claims about the product that are not genuine, they are in breach of contract and you are entitled to a refund; it's irrelevant what the manufacturer says (the vendor has a contract with the manufacturer, so if they are just parroting the manufacturer's claims and they are not genuine, they too are entitled to a refund) but in the case of GT6 in the UK, the product does exactly what the manufacturer says and any mis-selling quarrel is with the vendor

 

[Samus]

Certainly those buying from Amazon could have a case.

Stop whining about it, buying the game was your mistake. Even if it was falsely advertised, you bought it. You should have read a few reviews before you did.

Er no, false advertising doesn't work like that. No, GT6 technically wasn't falsely advertised by PD but if it WAS, it's not the buyers fault for any false advertising. It doesn't matter if it was reviewed and pointed out things were missing, if they were advertised it's the manufacturer at fault, not the buyer for not finding out they were lies.

 

[Venny_]

You want to file a legal case for a $60 game you didn't like?

 

[Brutaka]

You want to file a legal case for a $60 game you didn't like?

I think the smallest amount of a claim you can make is $250 (In in US atleast)

 

[twitcher]

You want to file a legal case for a $60 game you didn't like?

I don't really think it's about the money.

Based on the current lack of any interaction with the users of their product, maybe a lawsuit of some kind is the best way to get their attention.

Personally, I'd rather not have to wait for GT7 to be released, so I can not buy it to show PD my dissatisfaction with GT6. And even then, lawyers are sure to gain more attention than my missing $60 purchase.

 

[jimipitbull]

$60 will get you 15 minutes with a cheap lawyer.

If you didn't like the lawyer, would you ask for a refund?

 

[jakeBG18]

Its a little sad it has come to this..In short though,you would be wasting your time.

 

[MXH]

A complete waste of time. Get a refund while you still can, or simply sell it or trade it in.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Get some PSN friends and get online. It's not that hard people, the game is fun online.

 

[Jose Mendonca]

No. The product is as described (well, at least for UK buyers it is).

However, you can get your money back by taking it back to the shop for a refund.

No it is not. Go check the UK version of the site, and let me know how many features described on the site are actually in the game.
Anyway, with Project Cars on PS4, and now apparently Asseto Corsa as well, PD can start digging their grave.

 

[Famine]

No it is not. Go check the UK version of the site, and let me know how many features described on the site are actually in the game.

They all are.

Except the ones on the second list, marked "Update - These features will be implemented in future updates.", of which only three (Data Logger, GPS Visualiser, 3D Compatibility) are. The other five will be implemented in future updates, which is what the UK site says. It's interesting that they've included 37.5% of these features now, but still list them in "Updates", as if they don't want people who can't update the game to buy the game thinking the features are on the disc or something.

As I said:

To UK buyers it was always made clear that the things not in the game weren't in the game yet, so buying the game thinking they were in it is a case of caveat emptor. It's not necessarily the buyers' fault automatically though - many outlets (the supermarkets particularly) were not making that distinction and I'd say you do have recourse under SOGA* for a full refund from any shop that did not tell you that some of GT6's features were not in the game until it was updated to include them.

The features touted as arriving in future updates must, though, arrive in future updates. If they don't then yes, that's grounds for legal action - but no time period was ever given so we must simply wait until GT6's online service and support is stopped before that can be determined. While it'll be a long old wait, we have received some of the features (even if they weren't necessarily the most anticipated).

*Under the Sale of Goods Act, your purchase contract is between you and the vendor, not the manufacturer. If the vendor makes claims about the product that are not genuine, they are in breach of contract and you are entitled to a refund; it's irrelevant what the manufacturer says (the vendor has a contract with the manufacturer, so if they are just parroting the manufacturer's claims and they are not genuine, they too are entitled to a refund) but in the case of GT6 in the UK, the product does exactly what the manufacturer says and any mis-selling quarrel is with the vendor

 

[Jose Mendonca]

They all are.

Except the ones on the second list, marked "Update - These features will be implemented in future updates.", of which only three (Data Logger, GPS Visualiser, 3D Compatibility) are. The other five will be implemented in future updates, which is what the UK site says. It's interesting that they've included 37.5% of these features now, but still list them in "Updates", as if they don't want people who can't update the game to buy the game thinking the features are on the disc or something.

As I said:

Exactly, future updates. How 'future'? Tomorrow? Next week? Next year? Next decade? When my grand grand children are on their 50s?

On the non updates section
- 20 vision cars (we have one, or two if duplicates count)

Then on update section to be done
- Community
- Quick Match
- BSpec
- Course Maker
- Mobile devices

vs what has been done
- Data logger
- GPS Visualiser
- 3D compatibility

It's still a long list to go trough.

If this was Turn10 with any Forza game, half the world would be coming down on them, the other half down on Microsoft.

 

[Famine]

Exactly, future updates.

Exactly. Which means they're not sold as existing features, like I said.

How 'future'? Tomorrow? Next week? Next year? Next decade? When my grand grand children are on their 50s?

The features touted as arriving in future updates must, though, arrive in future updates. If they don't then yes, that's grounds for legal action - but no time period was ever given so we must simply wait until GT6's online service and support is stopped before that can be determined. While it'll be a long old wait, we have received some of the features (even if they weren't necessarily the most anticipated).

I get that people don't like that these updates aren't in the game yet, but that's nothing to do with the fact that there is, for UK buyers, no misleading or false information of any kind from SCEE regarding what is actually in the game. This means no-one, in the UK, has a case against Sony for a class action lawsuit regarding missing content - there is content that is in the game, as publicised, and content that will be coming in future updates. This is what their site says and what all the press release material before launch said.

Feel free to be unhappy about the slow pace of updates, but we have many, many other threads for that. This one is about whether buyers have legal recourse against Sony for false advertising. In the UK, they don't. Some buyers in the UK may have grounds for full refunds under SOGA for mis-sold goods if their supplier didn't make the distinction. That's an issue for the suppliers, not SCEE.

On the non updates section
- 20 vision cars (we have one, or two if duplicates count)

Over the course of approximately 1 year, cars from each company will be provided one by one in the game.

You've got until approximately December before you can get justifiably peeved.

 

[Davoxx]

As I said I think @Famine is right, it seem he have a real knowledge in law.

IMO there is nothing we can do with "false advertisement" however we have find another way to "catch" them.
Lawyers of PD must did a mistake somewhere, we just have to found where and how to sue them.

Also contact a consumer association should be a plus (like in France there is " 60 millions de consommateurs " which is really powerful and brands fear them).
This kind of association have Lawyers and I think they will find the case interesting and will be really happy to help US.

 

[Jose Mendonca]

Yes I know we have until Dec for the Vision cars, but based on the current cadence, does anyone really expect them to be all delivered by 31st Dec 2014?

Also regarding advertising:

Advertising to consumers
The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations mean you can’t mislead or harass consumers by, for example:

• including false or deceptive messages
• leaving out important information
• using aggressive sales techniques

I call your attention to the point in bold. The website is, indeed, a marketing channel. Promised updates that never arrived can constitute deceptive messages.

In: https://www.gov.uk/marketing-advertising-law/regulations-that-affect-advertising

Furthermore, on the second to last page of the booklet included on the UK version it reads:
'With the GT Community feature you can stay connected to the world of Gran Turismo(r) wherever you go via the revamped gran-turismo.com website. Sync your GT profile and you'll be able to create groups, organise race events, swap racing tactics in the forums and send personal messages to other drivers.'

Can you help me out how I access that GT community feature, or how can I create groups or sync my GT profile (or indeed access that same profile)?

 

[Davoxx]

Yes I know we have until Dec for the Vision cars, but based on the current cadence, does anyone really expect them to be all delivered by 31st Dec 2014?

Also regarding advertising:

Advertising to consumers
The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations mean you can’t mislead or harass consumers by, for example:

• including false or deceptive messages
• leaving out important information
• using aggressive sales techniques

I call your attention to the point in bold. The website is, indeed, a marketing channel. Promised updates that never arrived can constitute deceptive messages.

In: https://www.gov.uk/marketing-advertising-law/regulations-that-affect-advertising

Furthermore, on the second to last page of the booklet included on the UK version it reads:
'With the GT Community feature you can stay connected to the world of Gran Turismo(r) wherever you go via the revamped gran-turismo.com website. Sync your GT profile and you'll be able to create groups, organise race events, swap racing tactics in the forums and send personal messages to other drivers.'

Can you help me out how I access that GT community feature, or how can I create groups or sync my GT profile (or indeed access that same profile)?

I think you highlight something really interesting !!!

 

[Famine]

IMO there is nothing we can do with "false advertisement" however we have find another way to "catch" them.
Lawyers of PD must did a mistake somewhere, we just have to found where and how to sue them.

Also contact a consumer association should be a plus (like in France there is " 60 millions de consommateurs " which is really powerful and brands fear them).
This kind of association have Lawyers and I think they will find the case interesting and will be really happy to help US.

There's no real need to. Just take it back to the shop and 'request' a full refund on the grounds it is "unfit for purpose".

Saves money on lawyers - and could send the message you want to send. As you may have heard Jordan commenting recently in a GTP Podcast, book publishers are commonly required to buy back unsold copies from distributors. If the same thing applies to video game publishing, SCEE being required to buy back a load of unsold GT6s would certainly send the message - and if it doesn't, game stores having a load of unsold copies of GT6 they've wasted money buying will tell them not to order as many GT7s...

I call your attention to the point in bold. The website is, indeed, a marketing channel. Promised updates that never arrived can constitute deceptive messages.

How have you determined they "never arrived"? They simply haven't arrived yet. With no time period given until they arrive, by future update, we can only say they "never arrived" when it is no longer possible for them to arrive.

The features touted as arriving in future updates must, though, arrive in future updates. If they don't then yes, that's grounds for legal action - but no time period was ever given so we must simply wait until GT6's online service and support is stopped before that can be determined. While it'll be a long old wait, we have received some of the features (even if they weren't necessarily the most anticipated).

As things stand, they're at 37.5% completion of that list within 4 months.

Furthermore, on the second to last page of the booklet included on the UK version it reads:
'With the GT Community feature you can stay connected to the world of Gran Turismo(r) wherever you go via the revamped gran-turismo.com website. Sync your GT profile and you'll be able to create groups, organise race events, swap racing tactics in the forums and send personal messages to other drivers.'

Can you help me out how I access that GT community feature, or how can I create groups or sync my GT profile (or indeed access that same profile)?

Sure. If, as you directed me, you read the the UK version of the official site:

Update - These features will be implemented in future updates.

Community
Players can create their own clubs, communicate with one another in the forums and organise race events for their members. It is possible to select from a private racing club, and a public racing club that is open to everyone. This feature will be added in a future update.

I get that you're cross that PD/SCE's unspecified timetable isn't the same as yours - I get it - but it's simply not relevant.

The features on the UK site that they said are in the game are in the game. The features they say will arrive in future updates will arrive (62.5%) or have already arrived (37.5%) in updates. There is no case to answer that the publisher, SCEE, has misled you in any way (though game distributors might have - and this might include SCEI depending on the wording of the PSN Store version).

Be cross if you want. I'll totally support you being cross. Just be cross in the right thread for it.

 

[Jose Mendonca]

How have you determined they "never arrived"?

Should have said 'arrive'. But that is another point. How long is 'long enough'?
Let's say you purchase a car from me, but said car has a non-working central lock. I say that in the future I will fix it, but take 10 years to actually do it. Is that acceptable?

Regarding my quote from the booklet, is that is something that should be on the disk. No where on the booklet it says it will be available in a future update. Also version 1.0 had tabs related to this feature, but were removed without further notice.

Finally, I'm not exposing my 'being cross with PD' on this thread. I'm merely pointing out things that in my opinion show grounds for false advertisement, which is what we are discussing here. I do not know if they would be accepted anywhere, as I am far from being a lawyer, but for a lay man like me it does look shady.

Soon we will have First4Lawyers and similar making cold calls to us asking if we were missold GT6.

 

[Davoxx]

There's no real need to. Just take it back to the shop and 'request' a full refund on the grounds it is "unfit for purpose".

Saves money on lawyers - and could send the message you want to send. As you may have heard Jordan commenting recently in a GTP Podcast, book publishers are commonly required to buy back unsold copies from distributors. If the same thing applies to video game publishing, SCEE being required to buy back a load of unsold GT6s would certainly send the message - and if it doesn't, game stores having a load of unsold copies of GT6 they've wasted money buying will tell them not to order as many GT7s...How have you determined they "never arrived"? They simply haven't arrived yet. With no time period given until they arrive, by future update, we can only say they "never arrived" when it is no longer possible for them to arrive.As things stand, they're at 37.5% completion of that list within 4 months.Sure. If, as you directed me, you read the the UK version of the official site:I get that you're cross that PD/SCE's unspecified timetable isn't the same as yours - I get it - but it's simply not relevant.

The features on the UK site that they said are in the game are in the game. The features they say will arrive in future updates will arrive (62.5%) or have already arrived (37.5%) in updates. There is no case to answer that the publisher, SCEE, has misled you in any way (though game distributors might have - and this might include SCEI depending on the wording of the PSN Store version).

Be cross if you want. I'll totally support you being cross. Just be cross in the right thread for it.

I don't want my money back, in fact I would like to face PD to there problems (all empty promises), to how they threat us and it seem that the only solution is to sue them because everything have been tried.
For exemple on the official website there is no one word about non premium cars, they canceled the course maker 3 days before the D DAY .................. . IT IS NOT FAIR WITH US.

 

[Famine]

Should have said 'arrive'. But that is another point. How long is 'long enough'?

The agreed time limit.

Unfortunately, SCEE gave us none and we bought the game anyway. The agreed time limit is, thus the lifetime of the game.

Let's say you purchase a car from me, but said car has a non-working central lock. I say that in the future I will fix it, but take 10 years to actually do it. Is that acceptable?

If you don't give a time limit and I agree to it, yes. If not and we can't come to an agreement, I can reject the car for a full refund based on a pre-existing fault. SOGA!

SOGA also gives you recourse here - if the product does not match with what the retailer says, you may return the item for a full refund based on it not being fit for purpose. However, you only have six months to do this from purchase (SOGA gives further protection in the case of faulty goods).

Regarding my quote from the booklet, is that is something that should be on the disk. No where on the booklet it says it will be available in a future update. Also version 1.0 had tabs related to this feature, but were removed without further notice.

Indeed. The booklet - being inside a sealed box that you couldn't access until after purchase - can only be regarded as supporting material, not advertising material. The presence of the description and, as you say, the tab in the game indicates a feature that was very latterly removed (presumably between mid September and early December, after the master was sent for duplication and during the v1.01 development) for reasons unknown.

But SCEE never advertised the feature as being present (to my knowledge - I should check the Wayback Machine, but I don't recall it from any press releases), only as available for a future update.

Finally, I'm not exposing my 'being cross with PD' on this thread. I'm merely pointing out things that in my opinion show grounds for false advertisement, which is what we are discussing here. I do not know if they would be accepted anywhere, as I am far from being a lawyer, but for a lay man like me it does look shady.

Then it ought to be clear that what appears on the SCEE website, UK version, is what we actually have - though those of us with internet-enabled consoles and the time to download things now have 37.5% of the "future update" features.

Soon we will have First4Lawyers and similar making cold calls to us asking if we were missold GT6.

Heh, that's the truth.

I don't want my money back, in fact I would like to face PD to there problems (all empty promises), to how they threat us and it seem that the only solution is to sue them because everything have been tried.

I don't know what the "empty promises" are. As I've said, they've released 37.5% of the "future update" features in the last 4 months - if they keep that rate up, we'll have them all before December 2014 - despite not giving any kind of schedule. The Vision GT schedule - as @Jose Mendonca mentioned - seems a bit awry (though this may depend on vehicle manufacturers, making any delay a Matter Beyond Our Reasonable Control [MBORC] for PD/SCEI) but they did originally say it would be "Over the course of approximately 1 year" and we're not there yet.

A couple of things have been teased by SCE sources (mainly SCEA) - like Zahara - and it's not unreasonable to expect people to be annoyed that an official source says something will be with us in February and for it not to be here yet in nearly-May but, as far as I'm aware, this information has never been corroborated by official press releases or website updates. I've been saying since the days of GT4 that until there is an official statement from SCE, it's not real - even if we at GTPlanet say it or if an SCE source of some kind says it.

For exemple on the official website there is no one word about non premium cars

There aren't any.

PD removed the distinction of Premium and Standard cars - this was announced by SCE well before release - and is actually fairly reasonable given that there's now four(ish) levels of cars, which I term Standard, Enhanced Standard, Premium and GT6. Standard cars are their lovely, blocky selves. Enhanced Standards have updated body models but retain Simplified interiors. Premium cars are the new-to-GT5 models with Detailed interiors (except those cars that have no interior to detail!) and GT6 cars use adaptive tessellation to put them above Premium quality.

However, on the official website they do say:

Purchase and management of cars

Dealerships
All available cars are displayed under their respective manufacturers. There are no longer distinctions made between Premium and Standard cars as in the previous version of GT, but Standard equivalent cars will only have simplified cockpit views.

they canceled the course maker 3 days before the D DAY

I'm not familiar with this. As far as I'm aware it was always a feature for the future - though I suppose the existence of the feature in GT5 might have made people think it was in the game from the start. We covered it in November, four weeks before launch, when it was confirmed as coming in a future update - with the GPS Course Maker to follow in a second update.

 

[Dodzzz]

I don't get with people nowadays..

First, it's only a $60 product
Second, you already got what you paid for, a GT6 game, new physics, new tracks, new cars, new features (faster loading time than GT5, simplified menus), new seasonals, new events, etc and the list is still growing, PD is still developing this game.

All that for a small price of $60, it's totally worth it, and yet people are still whining and wanting more.. and even trying to sue when they don't get what they hope for? what childish! remember in the end this is still just a Gran Turismo game, you cannot expect it to be a 10 million worth of super simulator that simulates everything and has the best graphic and sounds and has all the cars in the planet, and every features every racing game could ever wish for..

Remember, this is only a 60 dollars Gran Turismo game! wake up man!