GT6 damper tuning (and suspension in general)

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by speedy turtle, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
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    Ok, let's see if I can give you more useful information. Let's start with the current configuration:

    600PP / 702HP
    RH: 80/80
    SR: 11.14/12.77
    DC: 1/1
    DE: 1/1
    ARB: 1/1
    Camber: 1.4/1.6 (Where do you find real camber values? I only find discussion forums talking about them, but not real values)
    Toe: -0.07/0.00 (Why only 5% and not 10% of Camber?)
    BB: 5/5

    Gearbox: Fully customizable, but without changes
    Max speed: 370 km/h
    1st: 3.141
    2nd: 2.041
    3rd: 1.459
    4th: 1.097
    5th: 0.866
    6th: 0.720
    Final: 3.420

    Differential (LSD): 5/5/5
    Clutch: Standard
    Shaft: Standard

    Power: 99.7%
    Exhaust: racing
    Everything else: standard

    Downforce: (nothing)
    Ballast: (nothing)
    Weight reduction: Stage 3
    Hood: Carbon
    Windows: Light

    Ok, I was thinking I'd have to find the real racing reactions of the car in every moment and every stage of the configuration, to know where the car fails and what I have to change… that if I was "taking a walk" the data collection wouldn’t serve at all... I'll keep it in mind :tup:

    I'll try to put across the sensations I perceive, but it's difficult to transmit the details when the prevailing feature is understeer on coasting and oversteer when mash the throttle:

    1. Start of turning: The car brakes well, it dives but doesn't block front wheels, no red tyres, no smoke.
    2. Increasing turn angle: It increases the diving over the front exterior wheel that starts to burn but only goes to orange, no smoke. Maybe I perceive a little understeer, I think I'm losing the path a little.
    3. Final turn angle: Is the gap between the brake period and the throttle again? I don't know if it could be named "coasting". If it is, then the understeer is the prevailing feature.
    4. Straightening wheel after apex: (…and pushing throttle more or less consistently), it depends on initial speed I leave the previous phase: if I'm on low speed curves (6, 11, 14, 15) the car oversteer when I push throttle… it is complicated to control the intensity on a DS3 controller. If I'm on mid or high speed curves (3, 4, 5, 13, 17) the tendency is understeer and the curvature radius increases.
    5. Setting back straight: On high speed curves the inner rear tyre loses traction, goes to red, black "footprint" on asphalt, smoke …

    Excuse me, but this is the most information I can transmit for now.

    Ok, I'll test it.
     
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  2. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Camber/toe Picked from enthusiast forum, range as quoted earlier message. Using "highest" values from range.
    Toe is just counter for GT6 camber thrust, without body rigidity it's 20:1 = 5%, with rigidity it's 10:1 = 10%.

    Hunt rear toe, i.e. Put +0.20 there and take note how it changes, then +0.05, then +0.15, then +0.10.. Numbers aren't written to stone, point is to search where it changes behavior to opposite, then nailing closer to that changing point. (I know at that car behaviour definitely will be opposite on 0.20 rear toe, okey I know changing point even not telling it yet, but point is to get you find it)
    Hunting can be on shorter range, your testing tells when rear is going from dominant push to slide, search that and find your preferable way from either side, or exact to be "neutral".
    Try to get rear slide before front understeer by doing above rear toe hunt.

    Edit: just to make search easier, do 10,2,84,6, change point is under 0.10
    Edit2: or it would be there if were using suggested stock gearbox.. It would help on this process, coz I have to rely on precise numbers on my tests, I'm really limited with my seat time on GT6 currently, if you use stock box then I can provide better help because knowing answer, with custom box it may vary bit. After this walkthrough you know what you're searching on all areas and doing this on custom box is easy.
    Edit3: I'm not putting you to recreate my test car, but I know when changes happen on it, after finding change point of rear toe you pick something probably close to it, if you're not finding it behave as you want then we/you can start alter different places, i.e. Front toe, cambers etc.. First you just have to find that rear toe for current setup.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
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  3. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
    108
    Ok. I came back to stock gearbox and went to test on track. I've made several laps changing rear toe values several times to feel the difference between them, finally I feel the car more confident with rear toe on 0.09.

    Maybe it isn't the number you were expecting, but I feel good on it.

    The rear slides a little but it's totally under control.
    The front axis don't understeer very much. If I minimize the gap between brakes and throttle again, the car goes well to the curve exit.

    The external front tyre only goes orange if I brake very late by carelessness; but the rear interior still goes red when mash the throttle from apex to exit.

    I think the car has improved... but it's still the beginning.
     
  4. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Yep, now you have base alignment on wheels, then just continue on earlier mentioned "list"/order.
    You're having bit higher toe on rear than "neutral", it doesn't matter because idea is somehow clear to you now, adjusting it later isn't a problem, again where to adjust is up to you and your feelings.
    (Just reminder: camber toe alignment isn't for heavy pushing at this point, you should have setup what stays in control and breaks traction when you want and how you want, if your rear toe is giving too much grip on this point you might find grip losing during damper/arb setup phase, but it's easy to identify during it, you have now tested several toe values and seen how it effect handling, if something "bad behavior" happens later and you see similarities to toe test phase then you'll know at you need to adjust toe again.)


    Follow order and get back when dampers are done :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
  5. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Only thing what I'm expecting is your learning how different toe on rear alters car behaviour, and seems like this lesson is done. :tup:

    Minimal under or oversteer isn't big deal on this point, that front understeer is easy to eliminate, will get back to that later, everything under control is just what is needed. Just setting as good as possible on this phase, always leaves something for later phases, best compromise is best solution now.

    That front will be eliminated later, don't care rear tire smoking, if it's under your control during entry, cornering and exit then it's fine on this point. That rear with LSD is "last" phase on this "tuning school". :dopey:

    It feels beginning, but actually you have just graduated on hardest part, everything else is just easy follow-up from this point.

    If you want to speedup process I suggest you to do tuning on Tsukuba, it has all needed variants of different corners and curbs, plus it's so short at you can test every area of car in one minute and redoing/comparing is easy on there.
     
  6. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    To add what @OdeFinn says, Deep Forest is also a good track to test damper/ARB, the 1st turn braking/exit, the esses and 2 tunnels in 1st half are very useful to analyze the balance on low/medium speed corners.

    Next week I will do some online session, I may post the room number here if anyone interested to join in, mostly damper tweaks.
     
  7. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
    108
    I was racing on GVS, but ok I take into account your advice, yes it is very quick :tup:

    Ok. I have plenty of work now and many things to test :)

    Thank you, all your comments are welcomed... several months ago @GhostRider65 told me that it was a very technical and bumpy circuit that I'd have to probe when I'd have more experience.

    I'm going to try it.

    Do you think I can obtain general data to employ later in any circuit, or it is particular like Nordschliefe?

    :gtpflag:

    Edit: Only gramatic verbal tenses...
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
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  8. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Hi there :). From my perspective Deep Forest is one of the circuits I like to use if looking for a good all rounder. I wouldn't use it for transmission/LSD tuning (Unless I wanted it to be track specific ;).) but for suspension work, it is one of the tracks that gives the car a good workout, Laguna Seca too :tup:.
    There is nothing wrong with GVS though. It does offer pretty much all you need in way of corner types and kerbs, it just takes longer to get round and complete laps is all :).

    In theory though, yes there is a chance that you can end up going too far and making a tune too track specific. But @OdeFinn is currently teaching class number one :):tup:. The object is to find a good balanced starting point. One that feels comfortable for the user and shows how the car behaves. From there I would assume lesson two will include what changes to make to achieve the behaviour you want the car to have :D. This is the point when you will find that what works best for different tracks/situation and how to best achieve your requirements :tup:.

    The ideal situation is that after you find a good balanced set-up that suits you. Then use that in settings page A, copy and paste to the other 2. Then go to two different track types and tune the set-up to suit that track type :cool:. At least that's how I do it :crazy:.

    :cheers:
     
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  9. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Learning how tuning goes is easy on Tsukuba, end result is capable to tackle low/semi-speed tracks, only change after Tsukuba to i.e.Nordschleife is stiffen/limit suspension bit.
    Going thru Tsukuba setup you'll learn basic tuning ideas and implementing those on other tracks is quite easy. Tune from Tsukuba is "ok" on every track, but just those high-speed corners and compressions aren't fixed on Tsukuba.
    Changes are mostly just linear stiffening if tune is working fine on Tsukuba.
     
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  10. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    I quite agree Ode. Back in older GT6 games I would always use Tsukuba to work on a cars agility/handling after visiting HSR to work on transmission (If power has changed ;)) and high-speed braking/cornering. I'm not sure why it's not one of my more visited tracks in GT6 :confused:. I just feel it's better to use a track you are most comfortable driving on to start off with :crazy:. The same linear changes can always be made in the other directions too :).
     
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  11. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Yes, but doing testing/tuning on low/med speed and you have more time to separate different body movements, everything happens slower and reacting to those is easier.
    If you setup car to tackle 170kmh+ corner "well" it might have some surprise left on 50kmh hairpin, but if it handles that hairpin(plus medium speed 120kmh) and traction losses are in control there it's easy to predict behaviour on high-speed turn too. :)

    Best to learn on slow speeds..:mischievous::sly:
     
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  12. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Can't say that doesn't make sense :). Better to walk before running :tup:.
     
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  13. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I like tuning on Grand Valley Speedway because it has such a diverse set of corners. There are two 180 degree corners with very different radii. The section long weaving climb up the hill and the turn right before the finish straight are great for high speed turns. There is also a nice mix of medium speed and slow speed corners and elevation changes mixed in too. Plus, after thousands and thousands of laps tuning there, I pretty much know the track in my sleep.
     
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  14. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    All the same reasons I use it so much too :tup:. Everything you need but for a 2 mile long straight :sly:.
     
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  15. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
    108
    Rereading and remembering...

    Yes, sorry, you already explained it on post #6.

    I understand “short/mid short ifg with mid long/long gears”, isn’t it? Sorry but it confuses me, remember?

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...sion-tuning-guide.339109/page-4#post-11559307

    I think when we talk about “gearing”, it refers only to 1st to 6th gears. Is it correct?

    --------------------

    I’ve been practicing with suspension parameters and a bit with LSD. Now my values are the following:

    RH: 80/80
    SR: 11.14/12.77
    DC: 3/3
    DE: 8/8
    ARB: 1/1
    Camber: 1.4/1.6
    Toe: -0.07/0.07
    BB: 5/5

    LSD: 7/8/9

    Let me to explain myself:

    1. Following your indications, I made more laps testing rear toe and finally reduced a little more, till 0.07. I tested lower values, but prefer this little sliding sensation.

    2. Then went to damper compression. Initial test on 1/1, then 10/10, 5/5… and I think the best for this moment is 3/3.

    3. With extension, you recommend start on “compression” + 1, ok 4/4, then 10/10, 6/6… and by the moment 8/8, but I would like to make more tests.

    4. Then I tested ARBs thinking that it’d be the solution to front exterior stressed tyre, but on the contrary I feel more reddish tyre. Well, it’s true that I only tested one or two ticks stiffer.

    5. Yes I know that I must leave LSD to a more advanced step, but I couldn’t resist the temptation and increased it to 7/8/9 to relax the rear interior tyre a little.

    --------------------

    Welcome Mr. Hamilton, much has happened since our last conversation, but I still have a lot to learn, it gives the impression that I’m not able to finish the complete lessons... :bowdown:


    :gtpflag:
     
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  16. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    It's a constant learning experience my friend :). The more cars you tune, the more you learn as each is a little different. The main points that need to be learned are how each change (in a positive or negative direction) changes the behaviour of each tuning element/overall feel and what works better for you :tup:.
    The rest is just practicing these same steps and learning how to tell which step to tackle at any given time.
    :cheers:
     
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  17. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    108
    Sorry, I wrote the changes, but forgot the impressions. I feel the car overall behavior has improved:

    1. The braking phase only need a little control of the pressure on front external tyre, I don’t know if it need more ARB’s test or we’ll have to return on front SR later.

    2. The brutal oversteer on apex to exit phase has disappear and now it is smooth and it’s over control.

    Yes, I suppose there will be "more things that need to be felt", but by now these are the predominant.
     
  18. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @speedy turtle seems like you have find one path, I'll give you few path more to check:
    - you have skipped bit too far with your body movement control on dampers, you should take bit back, don't try control body roll such heavily on damper extension value, use ARB and ride height for that, lowering front click by click and your front tire problem solves along it plus it reduces body roll there, few mm rake (front lower) on ride height helps, start lowering with equal height and when front sticks on ground your rear probably slides too easily (bottoming suspension), then just lift rear until it swings too much (tops suspension on body roll, or takes mass over grip limit) then find height between those what suits you. Similar bottoming/topping test can be done on front too using equal heights.

    -adding LSD at this point might mask car body native movements, not a problem if you can separate movement reasons in your head. I.e. Deceleration lock gives small drag on rear, giving understeer feeling on entry/mid corner, acceleration lock gives push on rear and again understeer feeling but on mid to exit corner.
    - More locking on acceleration(includes initial and deceleration too, but LSD main purpose is on acceleration) side and less toe in is needed(/can be used) on rear wheels, just a reminder. :)

    Will read your message again later, now busy at work, this message was written in several parts..no concentration to it ;)
     
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  19. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Correct gears is referring to the individual gears 1-8 (up to). The Final gear or IFG when starting the build is set at the start than adjusted to adjust all the gears to increase or decrease their ratios and thusly the acceleration and top speed of the car.
    With each gear say long long mid midshort short.
    That would be gears set left left middle middle right and right. The final is then adjusted to improve acceleration or top speed.
    You can't get both when adjusting the final. Its a one or the other. You can compermise with a middle settting.
     
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  20. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    108
    I've been making changes, testing several options on ride height and spring rate, front and rear, realizing when things go wrong, but hard to feel when things go better.

    It's complicated for me separate the curb into its five sections, getting focus on tyres, its color or sliding quantity, knowing if it is due to weight excess on an axis or due to a low pressure on its springs.

    All of this is easy when you start with an Alfa Romeo Mito that rises its rear axis every time you push breaks, or a Chevrolet Corvette C3 that rolls like a ship in North Atlantic Ocean… but now that we have a low ride car and the margins are very small, it's difficult for me to feel the differences when I reduce or expand springs or dumpers or RH, only a tick.

    I don't know if it'd be viable, but I think it'd be more effective to continue improving, if I could give you only data about understeer or oversteer, more than the color or the smoke quantity on tyres, the balance of the load... I don't know if you can help me knowing only the configuration values and how the car behave on three curb phases:

    1. Braking while starting steering.
    2. Coasting in the apex zone.
    3. Push throttle while finishing the curb.

    Ok, I know it's a very simple conception, but if I learn to control the car in this steps, it will be easier to know what to do later in the five more complex steps of the curb… like in my first days with GT6, it was easier to go lowering bit a bit the TCS and didn't start at 0 the first time I took a DS3 in my hands.

    I feel I need a little bit more of: "when you are starting the steering to enter in the curb you have to do (this) if you like to reduce the oversteering", or "if you feel the car understeer when you’re coasting in the middle of the curb, next to apex, you have to do (this)", for example…

    Please, don't misunderstand me, I don't like to say that: "now that you have finished with RH, go and test SR and say us what you find", wouldn't be useful… yes, it is. But when you do it and don't find what you are looking for, maybe my knowledge of the car reactions would be in "rookie level" yet, and I need to slow down and try to simplify things.

    Thank you for your comprehension.
     
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  21. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    With a lack of load indicator like GT5 it's hard to tell when a tyre goes res due to over or under loading. The only real option is replay.
    Watch the car from third person, when the indicators go res pause it use free roam camera mode and get a look at the body up close.
    To learn how the car will appear in the replays for under or over load. Due min/max drives.
    Max the settings due a lap minimum the settings do a lap watch the replays.
    Max will cause under loading minimum will cause over loading.
    The game also incorporates body to ground effects so it could be say if your low that you're over loading hitting the deck and bouncing up than under loading all in the space of a half a second so unless you happened to pause it when the car hits the ground it would look like you're under loading so you're make an adjustment for softer and the problem gets worse, so go harder now you're not bouncing but just skidding, so go back to the original setting and raise the car.
     
  22. Winters Noble

    Winters Noble

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    Hello! I'm a bit late to the party, but I have a question. I often frequent Ridox's Replica Garage and some of the replicas got me questioning my tuning methods. I mainly focus on low-mid powered FWD cars (200-300hp, SH tyres), and I noticed that most of the tunes listed there for such cars have higher front compression over the extension. I was under the impression that softer compression and stiff extension resulted in better handling (weight kept on inside more). Am I missing something? Thanks!
     
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  23. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Those damper values are not representative, they may be lower in number, but the actual damper force are different. I may set the extension lower than compression, it all comes down to many variables, like the weight distribution, spring rate, car characteristics, and how quick/slow the rate of weight being moved around or specific handling tratis that I aim for. If you need more front extension to keep the weight at the front longer, you can raise it, but be sure to drive it and make necessary changes to other parts of the tune like rear damper.

    I think I made special damper setup for the Mugen Civic RR build with funky damper values to highlight the car handling :) It has max front extension if I recall correctly.
     
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  24. Winters Noble

    Winters Noble

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    I have a question about that. Say there's FWD car with a weight distribution of 62:38. Would that explain why there would be a harder front compression (to prevent overloading the outer tires during cornering)?
     
  25. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Yes, you can try harder front compression, but if you already running hard front spring and/or high rear damper extension, running lower front compression may be more beneficial. Tuning damper is a play of balancing the rate of weight being moved around while taking the weight distribution, drive train and spring into account, as well as your driving style.
     
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