GT6 damper tuning (and suspension in general)

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by speedy turtle, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    Hello everybody, I'd never guessed starting a new thread on GTPlanet. I'd always thought this would be to people that have something to teach, so I've been using others' threads to learn, making questions and studying the answers. :cheers:

    I'd like to thanks @Praiano's, @MotorHami's, @GhostRider65's, @DolHaus's, @Otaliema's, … threads' contents, time and effort involved to make guides and the bounty to share all that information. Obviously, I'd like to thanks all the comments posted by all the collaborators in those threads too; @Thorin Cain, @LionHeart, @Bowtie-muscle, @F1Racer68, @OdeFinn and many others, without them there is no opportunity to discuss the knowledge and grow it up. :bowdown:

    I open this thread hoping to continue learning, and I hope some of you, but all, feel like teaching.

    Thanks in advance to all who want to contribute… and please excuse my English. :dopey:

    :gtpflag:
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  2. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Here's quick base idea for dampers, use always bit more (stiffer) extension than compression when going low or mild ARB. :dopey:
     
  3. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    108
    One question @OdeFinn. You say stiffer extension than compression. Then I think “stiffer front DE than front DC, and stiffer rear DE than rear DC”… ok, but I thought I have to work with pairs front DC / rear DE, and front DE / rear DC… then we find an inconsistence and I don’t know what to test, and then I blow up :banghead:

    Ok… inpire… expire… relax :nervous:

    My goal is to control the oversteer of an FR or MR car. I started a Corvette configuration with @DolHaus, but now I like to finish it.

    We review the LSD theory and configuration, the recommended starting point with the ride height and its distribution in a FR car to induce an initial weight transfer to the front; and the mathematic formula for the spring rate.

    Now I’d like to open the dampers universe doors… unless @Otaliema, it’s time to configure an initial gearbox to tame the power delivery???

    Well, I thought I know the damper theory (in summary): pair front DC / rear DE to control the weight transfer to the front when we brake; and pair front DE / rear DC to control the weight transfer to the rear when we push the throttle.

    But, how must I put this into practice?

    1. I know the standard values 3/3, in my case, don’t work… the car oversteers.

    2. What do I have to do then? Increase pair front DC / rear DE or it’d be better to start with the other one?

    3. Do I have to think that the way is “stiffer extension than compression”? What ratio must I should adopt?

    4. Must I follow the same steps we used to configure the Miata or must I follow another path?

    Sorry, there are too much questions at a time. I’m anxious to see results, but it minimize my learning capacity.

    Have a nice weekend... :gtpflag:
     
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  4. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    That fDC/rDE pairing is not for initial setup, more like fixing setup what's not behaving good, due other reasons and trying to save it by that, IF you're tuning low/mild ARB. It effects as you have been told, but problem is in springs/ride height and even possibly ARB.

    I'm currently I'm bit hurry but I can share my knowledge(?) later, after work.
     
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  5. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Well taming power delivery can be done two ways.
    Long (smaller number) final gear w/mid-short gears or mid-short(larger but not largest number) final mid-long gears.
    Your available power dictates the option. The higher the power the longer the gearing needs to be.
     
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  6. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @speedy turtle figuring basic car body movements in your head is best way to start digging in tuning, making things like mass of car sits on springs and those are against road, how much mass is on front equals grip amount on stable straight line speed, how much car have torque to squat rear during acceleration or how much weight of car is transferred to front during straight line braking and how much on outer front wheel when braking during cornering, how much your acceleration torque is able to balance or overcome outer front transferred weight to outer rear.
    Main numbers are calculated easily when equal ride height is used, basic transfer amount rules can be used to get approx values for others.
    This gives you spring ratio, simple thing, with approx ratio your car body will move balanced even all dampers and arb are "1", if not then ratio isn't good or tuner is targeting something really weird approach of car behaviour. This ratio on decent stiffness springs and still all others "1" should be driveable, springs carrying load and resisting weight transfer in balance, bouncy but that's fine.

    If you think at either end is moving up and down too much you can reduce it by lowering that end or if too solid then setting it higher, after you're satisfied base movements you can start to search "grip", adjusting camber and toe in way what gives you proper order to lose grip, waving car and traction loss happens on wheel what you want, in end of your desired choice.

    Then put few click or more on damper compression and drive over curb, if car doesn't jump sharply add more compression till it jumps sharply, then take one off and leave it there. Then put same amount extension plus one click and drive over curb and add more until it "jumps" (wheel didn't fall back to ground, but body falls with wheel arched) and again one click off and leave there.

    Then doing several different way of turns, with brake, without brake, with throttle, without throttle and solve how much you want to reduce this body movement and add ARB by feel, or just add more to both ends till either end loses grip, then take one back on that end and continue adding other end until it loses grip and again one back.

    Then going to LSD, preferably doing all above with open diff..

    Edit: don't stick on strict order of process, you might redo parts if later changes changes earlier behaviour.
    About grip search, you can throw some camber on both end on here, but start from "zero" toe, remembering at on front it means 20:1 ratio camber:toe if no body rigidity installed and 10:1 if rigidity is installed. So use even numbers on front camber on beginning if no rigidity installed.
    Example -2.0/-1.5 camber without rigidity "zero" toe values are -0.10/0.00, with rigidity -0.20/0.00.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  7. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    108
    Are you saying we must start from the beginning again? Configuring RH and SR again? I was thinking that the mathematic formula we used to configure the SR are widely accepted…

    Ok, but when we configure the gearbox, we use the “initial” final gear, the max speed slide, and the gears relation.

    I understand when you say: long final / mid-short gears, or mid-short final / mid-long gears, but how have we use “initial” final gear and the speed slide?

    Wait a minute, if I haven’t misunderstood, have I to soften DC and DE to 1/1, go to track and run to know the car’s behavior and compensate it with the RH, then “configure grip” with camber and toe… and only then go to damper configuration to make the car “jumps” sharply?

    Excuse me, but I don’t understand the concept of “jumping”. What does it mean? That tires rebound and lose grip with the asphalt?

    Wow, I think I will need to reset my mind.
     
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  8. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Pretty much yes :tup.

    As far as ride-height, springs and ARBs go. These settings all impact each other's functions/effects. The lower the car sits, the stronger the springs need to be so the car won't bottom out, but the less ARBs will be needed to control lateral movements. And a car with more clearance would be able to run softer springs, but stronger ARBs would then be needed to control the extra body roll :).

    Generally speaking RH would be the best place to start. Test the car on track and be sure to run over kerbs and bumps to check clearance. Lower Both both ends together until you feel the car is bottoming out. Use the lowest value that gives a full range of movement in the suspension (You need to check datalogger to see this if you can't feel the change :)). Then move on to springs, the formula you used before is ok, but it lacks one vital element. There is a delay between the front and rear wheels hitting a bump, this varies depending on the cars wheel base and there is no easy way to calculate this :(.
    To get as close as you can to incorporating this into the equation, I would recommend using the formula you have and using only the front value as a base. For the rear, calculate the exact % of the slider the front is at and use the same % on the rear slider. If the sliders match % exactly with no change if WD, the car is at perfect balance on springs :). Then use the % modifiers to find desired handling.
    After that fine tune RH. Test with slight lift in front, then test with lift at rear. Once happy that you have the balance you want then move on to alignment and ARBs.

    :cheers:

    Edit: Fixing spelling :dunce:.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  9. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Does that formula add weight transfer amounts to front and rear? If yes then it's probably giving you good base spring rate.
    If not and it's just calculation of springs to support stationary load then it's not good.

    If you're fully satisfied with your springs and ride height, then no need to go back, if not then it's good to start over, sounds long journey, but it's not. about weight transfer load vs. Static load + few massages forward from that.

    But prefer to stay around ~40mm max lowering, most cases best effect is coming around 12-25mm dropping. Too low and setup making comes hard, suspension bottoms, not car but suspension and stiffening everything to prevent it is hard, also lower you go it seems also restrict outward movements of suspension and no good to hit maximum out either.

    Post your current setup and I'll test how it feels.
     
  10. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Setting the intial final is easy.
    1; whats the build type.
    2; short final, smooth power delivery shorter gears best for top speed or twitchy cars. Highest top speed
    Mid set final slower shifts but sharper delivery. Good for stable-ish cars and a all around builds. Middle top speed.
    Long set final, sharp hardest delivery, greatest acceleration lowest top speed.
    Set top speed based on what the car reach in 4km un assisted. Add 20-100km/h to that depending on power use and expected tracks it will be used on.
     
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  11. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Here is a quick baseline damper/ARB that you can try on your C6 Corvette ZR1 600PP, this is just a few laps early setup based on the Vette tune that you built with Dolhaus, although I used stock transmission and comfort soft.
    F/R
    Dampers (Compression): 4 4
    Dampers (Extension): 2 2 - Optional rear extension at 3 ( recommend this if you feel the rear end is too sluggish )
    Anti-Roll Bars: 2 2

    It should have decent traction on lower gear on stock gearbox ( I used 5/5 BB ) Recommend to try it at various tracks, like London, Grand Valley, Deep Forest, Trial Mountain, Red Bull Ring etc.
     
  12. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
    108
    Thank you @Thorin Cain, more or less I know the theory basics, the doubts appears when I start to test and don’t know what is the best option, lower height and less range for suspension and stiffer ARBs, or just the other option.

    Maybe I have to test all the options and then can choose the best... okay, plenty of work to do yet.

    Yes, I use the formula only for the front dampers, then I approximate the rear using %.

    Five months ago my knowledge about suspension was near absolute zero, then I received that information talking about a formula that I could use to make the things easier. Three months ago, my "weekly-delivery information", suddenly disappear… I don’t know if that formula is the "only way" to do suspension tuning, or it is only the "first piece" of a bigger puzzle… At first sight it doesn’t take into account weight transfer, but I don’t know anything else…

    Today I feel in a dead end road, I’m not sure of anything, I think I’m in the middle of nowhere, and the best way to go now is start again… By the way, thank you for mention my avatar on that link. :lol:

    Thank you, but I prefer to work it a little bit, the current values are in the middle of a tuning process and are nothing coherent.

    Sorry @Otaliema, but I don’t understand "what the car reach in 4km unassisted" Are you referring to the max speed the car can reach without tuning parts, with the standard gearbox?

    What does "add 20-100 km/h" mean? Watch the max speed the car reach and add 20-100 km/h in the "Max. speed" slide?

    The last time I was making tests with the gearbox, I look the difference in the gear numbers when I change the speed in the "Max. speed" slide, ok; but I didn’t watch differences in the actual max speed the car was able to reach (if the last gear didn’t reach the red line, obviously).

    Thank you @Ridox2JZGTE, I’ll test it to view how I feel it, I appreciate all the contributions. But I have to learn when I must reduce the DE, before or after fix the RH, before or after configure the SR, and I have to learn if it is better to configure, for example: rear SR@12.73 and rear DE@2, or rear SR@11.32 and rear DE@3…

    I don’t know if I’m explaining myself? Put yourselves in the shoes of a rookie being bombed with good ideas but is unable to put them into practice for not knowing where to start. :banghead:
     
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  13. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Think "realistic", you need body and engine, so setup weight reductions and power parts there, base gearbox is needed too, this phase doesn't need super fine tuned box, just approx final for high torque engine, meaning "long", maybe just googling one real values and then using top speed slider to get it long enough on individual gears or copying real box gears, then start setting other things up.
    For camber and toe startup values are just fine if using real values, or some basic "usual" real car values, depending car -1.6/-1.0 or -1.0/-1.6 and "zero" toe, most cases best grip on front is in range -0.05 to +0.05 (-1.6° front camber means -0.13 to -0.03 norigidity) and rear 0.00 to 0.15.
    If you got in situation where one click on toe feels too much you can fine tune it by one click of camber change, what gives 0.005 toe per click.
    Personally suggesting to use Tsukuba for basic alignment test track, it has just all varieties of turns to get all different phases of body movement tested.
    Stock springs after full weight reduction are fine starting point, without any calculated springs, just changing ride height lower and you're on go, too much spring high tech tuning is just waste of time when learning setup tuning, after learning other phases you find out what you want from your springs and wil go back to there.

    Lol, start simple, full weight reduction, desired power, simple gearbox or stock, no LSD, or 5/5/5 there, custom suspension and to track.
    put simple camber and toe and then drop all dampers and ARB to 1 and drive around, do earlier mentioned camber toe adjustion and then damper setup, maybe lowering car bit before and drive around. Don't try to do lap times, just increase driving speed linearly to see when/how/why traction is lost, if this is hard on full power setup you can make it easier by taking power down by reducing powerparts, throttle control comes easier and repeating same maneuver on corner is easier. Take a note is traction lost before body movement or after, if before then it's more likely camber/toe after it's damper. Then which part of corner entry lost is happening (without body movement) tells is it toe or camber, camber lost or gain can happen also after body movement. Will get this later when you have tune shell to show/test.

    Do something and I'll test it and ask few follow questions and say ideas for it.
     
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  14. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    I used the spring rate that you wrote on the thread where Dolhaus was helping you setting up the Vette :) I think the rear spring rate was higher. This was from that thread :


    You should try the front/rear compression at 4 and front/rear extension at 2 - remember to set ARB to 2 at both ends, the damper was set on that ARB. If you feel the rear end is too sluggish on entry and mid corner, raise rear extension to 3. You can easily feel the effect on tracks like Apricot Hill Reverse, London, Deep Forest and Trial Mountain :D
     
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  15. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    @speedy turtle the speed test is for the final build of the car.
    If you add 200hp it's going to go a lot faster than stock.
    Just hit Nordschilf. Flip it around and see what it hits on the back straight or go to SSR-X standing start at the line and see what you get.
    Use the top speed slider till the car hits its max speed in 4km distance.
    Adding speed when building, if you set the final than top speed to what it hits in 4km than build unless your doing a short ifg(inital final gear) you may find yourself running out transmission in a race becausr of drafting speed gains and/or from the reduction in speed in the last gear.
    If you use a mid set ifg add less speed. If you use a long ifg add more speed. If you're building a short ifg take speed away
     
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  16. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @speedy turtle just tested quickly to produce a setup by above style, ZR1 '09 full weight reduction and racing exhaust, few clicks power limiter to get it 600pp.
    Did setup on SH tires and after pleased result dropped 2mm ride height and installed SS tires. Using SH tires to get grip losses happen on smaller speeds, 1mm/grade ride height is 99% cars valid change between tire compounds. Also used noABS during initial setup, just to get everything happen directly and not masked behind ABS.
    Produced tune which doesn't have LSD, only 5/5/5 and stock clutch and stock propeller shaft, using stock springs.
    Stock springs are just great for learning purposes, those are soft on front, but that's just good, it forces you to solve ARB and ride height combo for those.

    My setup phases went after above specs (weight/power/LSD), lifting car back to stock 120mm, googling quickly real real ZR1 suspension alignment values - just to see approx rates between camber and toe, toke highest camber values to both ends (0.1° less to stay on even value on front), tested middle values of toe, dropped front to "zero" and searched rear toe which is not pushing out or skidding in, which was pretty much in middle of real values, before this I reduced all suspension values (damper+ ARB) 1, then started driving along curb stones rising compression values on both end when it was jumping car (sharp feedback on wheel, probably DS3 vibration changes same way), checking replay how it looks and then reducing down until it's going softly on semi speeds and knocking bit on low speeds, then that value plus one click to extension and first same curb stone driving and then decent speed driving around track rising until car become slippery then reducing back and checking curbs again and it's fine
    Then ARBs, increasing values until body movement start to feel nice, adding more until rear or front starts to fail, normally front fails on braking, don't worry if front starts to grab oversteer, that's easy fix later, and rear starts to slide like on soap, then dropping values to places where rear settles and braking doesn't fail on front and driving is easy, some times it's two click away from big problems.
    Probably your car now has bit too quick front, grabbing too quickly in from your driving inputs, or sluggish and not turning fast enough, if it's too quick, body starts to roll outer side and turning increases you have two things to do, minimal adjust by lowering front height, bigger adjust add more front ARB and fine tune it by ride height, changing front may unbalance rear bit, check first with ride height changes if it's fixed by it.
    One click on ARB is more or less 4mm on ride height, so fine tuning by ride height really means click by click.

    This procedure take about 30min, testing track was Tsukuba, using normal curbs around track and deeper cut stones just before SF-line- left side of track, two lines of curb stones, inner ones are deep cut, outer smoother.
    Then after dropping 2mm and installed SS tested Tsukuba times and GVS, 0:56.low stable on Tsukuba, 1:55.low on GVS, both without LSD and stock gearbox.
     
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  17. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

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    One question guys: With @DolHaus we jump from Miata (200hp / 420pp) to ZR1 (600hp / 600pp). Do you think it would be better to choose a less powerful car, something more manageable, maybe 500pp or 550pp?

    An FR drive of course.

    Or you think: "who tame a monster can tame anything"


    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
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  18. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @speedy turtle power isn't problem on ZR1, car lenght is only "problem", i.e. my test setup without LSD have no grip problems, it takes full throttle to ground even on harsh pedal use.

    Truly prefer to skip spring setup on this point, it's good for other alignment practise, for easy start I'm preferring you to pick camber values from real life values, my test setup had maxed front and rear, minus that .1º, meaning it had -1.4° front -1.6° rear, preferring to choose values with max ±0.3° difference on front and rear, .2 difference is good - it might be opposite to my choose, front having more which is common way on corvettes. Flipping my camber values isn't big change on tune, after LSD it will help if opposite than mine.

    So something on front from real range and 0.2 less on rear example. Values aren't written in stone, your setup process might change them as needed, but for starting point. Zero camber on starting isn't good choice, you won't learn suspension setup with it, it might produce "ultimate TT tune" but if you know how to create tune with camber you can easily convert that to zero camber TT tune. Well made camber tune isn't much slower than zero camber TT tune.

    Camber Front -1.50 -0.50
    Camber Rear -1.70 -0.70

    Toe Front -0.02 0.07
    Toe Rear -0.02 0.07
     
  19. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    @speedy turtle quickly tested car with higher camber on front and no problems with it, changes to tune just as expected, also tried with several LSD configurations on it, so now having gathered "enough" information for car to help settle your tune.
    Bigger than 0.2 camber difference on ends will create other end dominant, if having greater difference between ends you'll face unnecessary tweaking for good maneuverability, playing in range max 0.2° difference you can easily switch balance on cornering, more entry turn-in and stable rear on exit with front having less camber, but also with higher front camber it can be adjusted to dive in well, but needs minor other changes. Identical camber on both ends isn't bad solution either, kinda neutral behaviour with it.

    Put some packet ready and post it here, strongly suggest at use that full weight reduction and racing exhaust only with 99.7% limiter to get that 600pp for tuning start point. No oil change, no body rigidity and stock rims.
     
  20. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
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    Hello, finally I’ve found a couple of minutes to test a little your contributions. My Corvette’s settings are now:

    RH: 100/100
    SR: 13.05/14.25 Why? I don’t remember, maybe the last configuration I tested.
    DC: 1/1
    DE: 1/1
    ARB: 1/1
    Camber: 1.4/1.6
    Toe: 0/0
    BB: 5/5

    Gearbox:
    Initial: 4.500
    Max. Speed: 240 Km/h
    1st: 2.570 (0%)
    2nd: 1.930 (15.6%)
    3rd: 1.510 (31.9%)
    4th: 1.230 (52.0%)
    5th: 1.040 (77.8%)
    6th: 0.895 (98.1%)
    Final: 3.200

    LSD: 5/5/5 (triple clutch and carbon propeller shaft)

    I’ve raced several laps on GVS making 1:55.8xx and my impressions are the following:

    upload_2017-3-23_15-43-53.png


    • Straight line: The car brakes well, without burning the front wheels and without smoke.
    • Trail braking / late corner entry: The problems appear now, when I continue braking while turn the wheels. The car goes straight and doesn’t turn, only when I release brakes the car changes its direction. The exterior front tire burns to red.
    • Mid corner: The moment “no brakes, no throttle” is totally understeer.
    • If I’ve reduced the speed very much on late corner entry step and now I mash the throttle, the car oversteers, the rear wheels try to overcome the front ones: burning to red both rear tires, smoke... and finish the lap driving reverse :scared: (curves 2, 6, 14, 15)
    • If the starting speed in this phase isn’t so low, the car understeers on throttle, the curvature ratio rises and I lose the track on the outside of the curve (curves 11, 12, 13).
    • The feelings are very uncomfortable. Transmit very low confidence.
    After that, I changed the camber like you said and used 1.6/1.4… And something improved, apart from the lap time, 1:54.3xx:
    • Straight line: The same...
    • Trail braking / late corner entry: The same…
    • Mid corner: The same…
    • Apex to exit: Feel better response,
    • The oversteer is more controllable in case of very low speed corners, if you feel the rear axis is losing adherence, lift the throttle a bit and all is perfect again. Now the rear interior tire goes to red due to lack of adherence (extremely low dampers).
    • In the case of high speed curves the understeer is evident again.
    Excuse me Ridox, I don’t forget your advice, I need more time to be able to test all your contributions.

    Yes, of course, I know that if you add power you obtain a faster car.

    Excuse me guys, I don’t like to bother you, please be patient with me, but, sometimes I find difficult understand some of your comments.

    Generally I do the following with my gearbox:

    1. I set “ifg” near its maximum value: for example, if it goes from 3500 to 6000, I set it at 5500.
    2. I set max speed at its minimum value: 180 to 400 (Km/h), then I set it at 180.
    3. I set every gear to values relatively close between them, but spread homogeneously.
    4. I set final gear again in function of the top speed of the car in the largest straight of the circuit.

    I was thinking this gearbox configuration is to obtain good acceleration, but maybe not very good top speed.

    I’ve read your “silver dragon” thread and I know there is a method to know the good rpm range to make the gear change, that there are several types or gearbox depending on your needs, … and other subjects wrote on that fantastic guide, but now it is far from my knowledge.

    On step 3, two paragraphs above, you can vary a little the distance between gears but have no much room to obtain a homogeneous distribution; for that reason I thought I had to play with the ifg and max speed slide to get the different gearbox types.

    Does it work on that way or I’m wrong?

    Wow, I don’t be able to feel the difference between 2mm on RH, and less to understand that: SS = SH – (2mm on RH)… incredible.

    Are you thinking I’m able to drive without ABS??? Great joke :lol: Thanks for your confidence.
     
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  21. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Try same with suggested "zero toe" on front = -0.07

    Well, for tuning purposes I understand your choices to mix everything on same time, but if you want to learn take out unnecessary parts and tunes.
    Standard Clutch and NO propeller shaft, that propeller shaft will make your life miserable on this car and for basics it's way easier to setup car with standard clutch, again for learning purposes. :)

    Really really prefer to drop back to stock spring rates, learning to settle car on those and then starting to change stiffness and on that point you already have leaned how to change tune to adapt stiffer springs. Same goes on gearbox, you should concentrate on one area and after that adding more.

    Lap time comparison should be left much later point, just wrong measuring tool at this point.
    Means: i.e. Your 100/100mm with SS is having same handling on 102/102mm at SH, and 97/97mm with RS. 1mm/grade.

    Actually car is pretty easy without ABS, and targeting that would be just good goal, so yes I believe you could easily drive it without ABS.
     
  22. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Don't be so hard on yourself ;). From a personal point of view, In the past I felt the same way about using no ABS :scared:. But after making a point of trying it out and experimenting with It, I didn't see why I was so worried. Like everything else, it is tough to get use to at first, but after a little time, you get into a rhythm with it :). I would actually say of all the aids GT6 has, this is the easiest one to let go of. And I started tuning on RS tyres with SRF on too :crazy:.

    Also, it has the advantage of you not being able to mess up a tune due to poor brake and BB choices early on and not realizing it :banghead: (speaking from a lot of person al experience :guilty: :lol:).
     
  23. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
    108
    Upsss, your right, I forgot it.

    Thank you for cheering me up @Thorin Cain, sometimes it is difficult for me to view results and it frustrates me.

    Ok I'm going to "clean" the car and test it again... ok I'll try to handle it without ABS. Please get away from the circuit :lol:

    Implies, I can take it like a standard (always works)? 2mm/composite plus 1mm extra/tyre type.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  24. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    :lol: OK, I'll stand well back from the fences :tup:.

    I posted how I approach working on B&B in this thread...
    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...tion-touring-car.340550/page-16#post-11307532
    If tuning with no ABS, the main points are exactly the same but the process is a little simpler really. But you will need to remember that the front inside wheel will lock up first if trail braking, so be sure to test that out too if that's how you drive :).

    :cheers:
     
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  25. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    That "simple clean" will help you on learning. Same relative stiffness is quickly achieved with just height changes, and this point playing with height changes only are much simpler. plan is to settle car on balanced rake or mild positive rake(nose lower than rear), this is not cosmetic thing even on GT6.
    0ABS isn't so big spooky thing, just makes you time your braking better and practises smoother "pedal" movements.

    1mm/grade, 99% of cars/cases working. Not 2mm/grade, or what you mean "2mm/composite"?

    Edit: tested your setup as is and with some minor test changes.. It is not bad, it's going on fine direction, but it is build around springs, your springs are dominating whole setup and altering handling characteristics with that setup by dampers is just hard, it's possible to do quick setup from that, but it will be tire eating machine on constant slide, not bad for no tire wear usage or short sprints. For learning how suspension parts are working it's easier to leave that behind for this moment.
    Gearbox was nice too, still leaving that also out for now, it will fit in as is later. Stock box works for training purposes.
    Front toe as is was kinda pair for triple clutch and carbon propeller, scrubbing both ends nearly even, after "zero toe" rear dominant shows it nature.
    Overall packet is stiff, even on 1 values on all suspension settings, quickly added approx values there and it helped but but doesn't eliminate ruff stiffness of suspension, or more likely stiff front, not far from good, but not doable with ride height without doing negative rake, not good idea.
    Just hopping to much as possible stock setup and it will create us point where you can practise suspension parameters effect on handling, that's main point of this setup training, it will produce a stable setup, not super hyper tune but stable setup where you'll know why it's stable and continuing from that to "super setup" isn't a problem after that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  26. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
    108
    Thank you very much, I'm going to read it.

    I want to know if I've understood well your indications. It's correct, in general terms, if I follow this method with the ride height?:

    RS + 1mm = RM
    RM + 1mm = RH
    RH + 2mm = SS
    SS + 1mm = SM
    SM + 1mm = SH
    SH + 2mm = CS
    CS + 1mm = CM
    CM + 1mm = CH

    ... or I didn't understand you. :confused:
     
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  27. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

    Messages:
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    Nope..


    RS + 1mm = RM
    RM + 1mm = RH
    RH + 1mm = SS
    SS + 1mm = SM
    SM + 1mm = SH
    SH + 1mm = CS
    CS + 1mm = CM
    CM + 1mm = CH

    Actually some cases your 2mm jump is what it needs.. It might be even better like that, if there is that Super Soft tire lurking between those...

    Edit: d0227ce70c0b9f371e7a7a018729143e_thumbs-up-smiley-face-big-thumbs-up-clipart_2891-2674.jpeg
    Just tested few tunes and I have to thank you, somehow I have forget PD's using normally four set of tires per genre, and that lurking super soft compound is still "in there", not usable but tire thickness is going like it's there.

    So your understanding wasn't what I ment, but that understanding was better than my suggestion. Great
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  28. speedy turtle

    speedy turtle

    Messages:
    108
    ¡¡¡¿Thank you?!!! I didn't really read well your comment cause I counted wrong the jumps, but thank you anyway :lol:

    This weekend I’ve been “cleaning” my Corvette: I’ve used the “default custom” gearbox and spring rate. I’ve been trying to racing without ABS and ok, it is not as terrible as I supposed it’d be; but by now I’d prefer to advance a little into the learning of configuration to be able to create my own competitive cars; and then, bit to bit learn to fight without ABS.

    I've tried that steps and I felt how it works, but I need more flight hours to combine it with noABS...

    I think if I be able to create my own cars with ABS, later I’ll be able to know how to modify them to race without ABS.

    For example, now I’d like to be able to change any of my 550PP configurations with SH or SS tires, to CS tires to run the last TT in Eifel circuit and win the gold even with a poor time, but I can’t; my configurations goes sliding like the asphalt were ice… nevertheless I felt comfort on the 600PP TT on Fuji, gold on my second attempt.

    But let’s focus only in one subject at a time: I’d like to continue learning to make my own suspension configurations.

    My impressions about the car, more or less, are the same:
    • When on brakes and turning, the front exterior tire goes to red.
    • When mash the throttle from apex to exit, rear interior tire goes to orange.
    • In the middle, between the brakes release and mash the throttle, if I “leave the car alone” it understeer; if I try to minimize the time between brakes and throttle again, it goes well, but it’s difficult to control every lap every turn and maintain the concentration. I’d prefer to have more margin to breath.
    Ready to continue when you like guys...
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  29. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

    Messages:
    2,643
    Location:
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    A) more details needed(setup also), if entering corner without brake is it pushing front (understeer), when it starts it, split turn of wheel on phases, start of turning,(1) increasing turn angle(2) and final turn angle(3), also straightening wheel after apex(4) and finally setting back straight(5). So 5-phases.
    During camber/toe setup you just have to remember at this point your car isn't capable to take full throttle, and you don't need it, same goes to brake, you are searching smooth reactions from car and when it's reacting smoothly then you continue on setup to get car on shape where you can give more throttle and more brake and again searching smooth reactions from car.

    B&C) need camber/toe values, what is used setup, whole setup.
    If you're on 1 at dampers and ARB then you're just rushing too far on tests, wave car and coast corners to inspect when traction is lost, use those phases to memorize what happened and when, i.e. On right hand turn at start of phase 2 outer side front dives, front grabs leap to inner corner and rear breaks traction after it. Then it's easy to say how to fix and why, on example there is too much toe in, because it grabs on phase 2 and bends outer corner after it, reducing toe in is then solve for alignment. After all non wanted steering behaviour is eliminated by camber and toe setup then testing continues to stabilize car on bumps by doing damper stiffening. Then adjusting body roll with ARB and ride height, then might be minimal testing of earlier setup phases to check if there's anything to gain.
     
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  30. Otaliema

    Otaliema

    Messages:
    5,489
    Location:
    United States
    That setup style will give you good top speed with ok acceleration.
    If you want more acceleration set the ifg longer.
    As far as gear spacing tight gears equals faster get up and go long gears guve better top speed at the sacrifice of acceleration, except in high power cars.
    Try building frim the mid point of the final with the top speed slider set 4 clicks up from minimum speed. Dont change the final during this.
    This will help you understand how the gearing designs work on the car. How much speed and acceleration sre affected by movement of the gears and their spacing.
    I would suggest a mid speed track so you're not frustrated with capping out the transmission on the straight.
    Set up a long gearing set up a short gearing set up a wacky gearing. See how the car responds how the gears affect your style and your lap times.
    Use the game base gearing as a reference point.
    So set it up as recommended above go out do some laps get an average than start building see what the different configurations (as outlined in the non-drag racing transmission guide). But remember dont change the final after the build is done. This exercise is help you understand what the gear placement is doing to the build.
     
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