GT7 and SimHub Tactile discussion

[hawkeyez]

To be fair, I didn't see your response, when doing the edit, what you do is indeed upto you, as it is for others.
We are just having a discussion.

I already stated previously too.
It seems evident you will just do what you want to do anyways and based on what your saying, currently have a rather limited understanding with tactile. A lot of people don't, it's not a dig at you personally.

Long story short, I asked for suggestions on the best way to mount the puck transducers, not to sell it all and get something worth using. Lol. So in all fairness to me, I guess I got defending my purchase choice as I had already made up my mind on that. In all fairness to you, my question didn’t specify that I already had that gear on hand. I probably mentioned it earlier in this thread but who knows.


To put it in perspective, I had a G923. Was on the fence for a G Pro, most people that race a lot tell you to skip on the G29/G923 as you’re just wasting your money, go for direct drive right off the bat. I didn’t, I raced a half a year with my G923 and decided I wanted to upgrade as I’m enjoying it a lot. I had a G29 i repaired and gave to a friend, he bought a stand, was all pumped up to race, he raced for about two months and he’s done. Good thing I didn’t tell him just get a G Pro you won’t regret it, because he would have.

I may or may not regret going with puck transducers but two or three things will happen.

1- I’ll wish I spent more in the first place (not likely as I’m at my set budget for that currently this year)

2- It’ll work out great and I’ll be happy with it

3- I’m happy with it for the time being and down the road if I’m still racing a lot I’ll then have more money to do some upgrades.

 

[MadMike008]

Amen. Thanks @Nightwing24 !

 

[Mr Latte]

Long story short, I asked for suggestions on the best way to mount the puck transducers, not to sell it all and get something worth using. Lol. So in all fairness to me, I guess I got defending my purchase choice as I had already made up my mind on that. In all fairness to you, my question didn’t specify that I already had that gear on hand. I probably mentioned it earlier in this thread but who knows.


To put it in perspective, I had a G923. Was on the fence for a G Pro, most people that race a lot tell you to skip on the G29/G923 as you’re just wasting your money, go for direct drive right off the bat. I didn’t, I raced a half a year with my G923 and decided I wanted to upgrade as I’m enjoying it a lot. I had a G29 i repaired and gave to a friend, he bought a stand, was all pumped up to race, he raced for about two months and he’s done. Good thing I didn’t tell him just get a G Pro you won’t regret it, because he would have.

I may or may not regret going with puck transducers but two or three things will happen.

1- I’ll wish I spent more in the first place (not likely as I’m at my set budget for that currently this year)

2- It’ll work out great and I’ll be happy with it

3- I’m happy with it for the time being and down the road if I’m still racing a lot I’ll then have more money to do some upgrades.

I don't have any beef or issues, nor expect you just to do a 180 on what you decide to do.
No offense intended either though yes I can be a bit tongue in cheek (Im Irish) so my posts are not always interpreted how I think they will be.

Sure I will try to push what I know works well and encourage others to think more or ask about tactile and what they want from it before committing what to buy. There are clear tried, and tested paths we can take to achieve good immersion with tactile, lots of opinions too.

Your idea on relying on the wheel's tactile sensations with, TF to connect your wheel base to the pedals is not ideal as TF gives you very little control over what it generates. On the other hand, Simhub is all about control and giving you the means to determine what in effects and how those effects operate to what hardware you install.

The bottom line with most tactile installations people will own is they are limited in the number of effects they can produce at once.
A reason for that is their best performance is within a very narrow frequency window. Some people are fine with this but again, it depends on if you want basic/okay tactile or with more consideration and planning determine something that will be more accomplished and perform better.

What you will see is that most people's effects with budget tactile will be using similar frequencies and often within the 30-60Hz range. The "less is more" phrase is often used as it soon can become a mash of vibrations instead of individual effects that freely travel (traditionally from the base of a seat) into the user's body.

Due to effects sharing similar frequencies then this increases the amplitude of those frequencies when more than one effect is operational at the same time. What happens is the most felt frequencies the unit generates become further boosted which then overpowers the felt sensations from higher frequencies and the detail these have.

I've noticed, that GT7 needs some changes and things done a little differently to PC sims regards Simhub.
Personally, I have spent over 3000 hours in the last couple of years looking at building tactile effects for different hardware.
There are new things I want to try and share with others in an approach to generating effects that are also not the usual method. So in building effects that can be made to be musically balanced with each other, helps scenarios like when more effects are active to operate better together. Yet to make this work, you then need to be using hardware that can work with a wider frequency but also utilising specific body regions GREATLY enhances how we perceive effects being generated.

I have a goal for the GT Planet community
Would like to achieve something for others to be able to enjoy regards tactile and GT7 in particular. It is likely, soon I will not be that active on forums or the amount of time I spend online.

The solution I have can be offered with its own guide/tutorial from what to buy to how to install and with a nice assortment of effects. Currently, it needs input from others to help determine (what/how) are the most preferred ways to combine multiple effects over multiple channels. That is one of the reasons for the private chat group, they get free effects, I get useful feedback, it's not a bad deal. So this is why I have pursued the more curious and willing to help with building higher quality effects made for the exact hardware people have installed.

 

[hawkeyez]

Thanks, starting to think I really don’t care how in depth it is, too hardcore for me. If seat goes brrrrrrr on curbs and gear shifts I’ll be happy. I won’t be joining the private chat as I don’t/won’t have the equipment required so when it’s all setup I’ll maybe post my own thread with pictures, settings, prices and honest opinion for anybody looking for a budget version of tactile feedback. Anybody seeking out more detail, depth and complexity I’ll point them in your direction.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks, starting to think I really don’t care how in depth it is, too hardcore for me. If seat goes brrrrrrr on curbs and gear shifts I’ll be happy. I won’t be joining the private chat as I don’t/won’t have the equipment required so when it’s all setup I’ll maybe post my own thread with pictures, settings, prices and honest opinion for anybody looking for a budget version of tactile feedback. Anybody seeking out more detail, depth and complexity I’ll point them in your direction.

Well, you don't ask for much then, lol certain yes you will feel something and who knows you may be happy.

What you will have is the same limitations as others and trying to rely on effects all being generated by sole units and the output from that sole unit transmitting via the same path to your feet or body.

That is one of the things my own approach does differently, an effect is not restricted to a single units own performance limitations or the displacement of that unit's output from its installation point to how well its output is felt.

So, I hope too that one of the guys who has gone with my recommendations comes to me to say they want to do a report or thread in the near future, giving "their own" impressions so far. I am aware that while a how/to guide would make it easier for early adopters, helping with the group chat, most seem to of grasped within the discussion that it's not hard to place 2,4,6,8 exciters onto a suitable seat.

Those that are new to all this or who ask for help in private or within the group, who have queries usually get help from someone anyways. So please, let's not try to make this seem something that's very complex even to newcomers to tactile.

When users get accustomed to Simhub.
How we map specific effects over the units will be within the user's preference, even though some effects I create, may be developed to use specific frequencies to specific body regions. All the user has to do is to determine what "they" want or like.
That's what part of the group chat is about, nothing complex or too deep at all, and when people want to share their own configurations for various effects that's easy to do in sharing their own profiles.

The key difference is, that they are using the same hardware and installed in similar positions or fashion with effects specifically made for that unit's performance characteristics.

This is one of the main problems with tactile and you will discover when you have so many variations in installations, regards what transducers people use, their rig materials, or how/where things are installed. So it's actually more of a pain in the ass or complex to learn or find settings and apply effects that suit your own individual installation, and when you do, may not be ideal or much use for others to use.

It all depends on the user, some have quite rubbish tactile and they enjoy it or think its great because they don't know any different.

 

[hawkeyez]

Well, you don't ask for much then, lol certain yes you will feel something and who knows you may be happy.

What you will have is the same limitations as others and trying to rely on effects all being generated by sole units and the output from that sole unit transmitting via the same path to your feet or body.

That is one of the things my own approach does differently, an effect is not restricted to a single units own performance limitations or the displacement of that unit's output from its installation point to how well its output is felt.

So, I hope too that one of the guys who has gone with my recommendations comes to me to say they want to do a report or thread in the near future, giving "their own" impressions so far. I am aware that while a how/to guide would make it easier for early adopters, helping with the group chat, most seem to of grasped within the discussion that it's not hard to place 2,4,6,8 exciters onto a suitable seat.

Those that are new to all this or who ask for help in private or within the group, who have queries usually get help from someone anyways. So please, let's not try to make this seem something that's very complex even to newcomers to tactile.

When users get accustomed to Simhub.
How we map specific effects over the units will be within the user's preference, even though some effects I create, may be developed to use specific frequencies to specific body regions. All the user has to do is to determine what "they" want or like.
That's what part of the group chat is about, nothing complex or too deep at all, and when people want to share their own configurations for various effects that's easy to do in sharing their own profiles.

The key difference is, that they are using the same hardware and installed in similar positions or fashion with effects specifically made for that unit's performance characteristics.

This is one of the main problems with tactile and you will discover when you have so many variations in installations, regards what transducers people use, their rig materials, or how/where things are installed. So it's actually more of a pain in the ass or complex to learn or find settings and apply effects that suit your own individual installation, and when you do, may not be ideal or much use for others to use.

It all depends on the user, some have quite rubbish tactile and they enjoy it or think its great because they don't know any different.

Sounds like you really know what you’re doing. Can you please list your equipment, prices, where you mounted it on your rig, what rig you have or picture of it, including the seat you’re using etc etc etc and what your settings are in sim hub? Maybe you’ve posted it somewhere but perhaps you could just list it all in here?

 

[Mr Latte]

Sounds like you really know what you’re doing. Can you please list your equipment, prices, where you mounted it on your rig, what rig you have or picture of it, including the seat you’re using etc etc etc and what your settings are in sim hub? Maybe you’ve posted it somewhere but perhaps you could just list it all in here?

Im not sure exactly what you are seeking?

If you are referring to "my own rig build" or just what is required for my concept in using the "multi-exciter" approach with tactile that I am sharing with others here?

 

[hawkeyez]

Im not sure exactly what you are seeking?

If you are referring to "my own rig build" or just what is required for my concept in using the "multi-exciter" approach with tactile that I am sharing with others here?

Sure, your personal rig setup. Scrap the use of interface and daw for boosting certain frequencies etc, unless you want to include that, I’ve got gear I could potentially hook up and do the same. Which DAW are you using? Which interface? Thanks

 

[Mr Latte]

Sure, your personal rig setup. Scrap the use of interface and daw for boosting certain frequencies etc, unless you want to include that, I’ve got gear I could potentially hook up and do the same. Which DAW are you using? Which interface? Thanks

I think first something you need to understand.
People do not generally seek to build a cockpit with the primary intention that its main purpose is being built around achieving what will bring the best tactile performance that can be discovered.

Most people with high-end rigs will be using alu frames and then, usually, adding some tactile to the rig right?
So that's adding tactile to a rig, while my own build is focused on being built for tactile, it's a different approach based on my own interests and self-challenge to determine what it eventually becomes or can achieve with tactile and audio perspective in immersion.

As its a hobby project, this is why with on/off work being done to it, to then apply the ideas I have for the structure and isolation of the rig, to buy those materials to then build and finally test it. An example would be that I spent over £1000 testing different ideas for the rigs isolation and while they certainly helped I still was not fully satisfied.

I found because the amount of bass the project can produce is quite extreme I wasn't sure to just consider making it do or coming up with a new plan.

To re-do that means dismantling and rebuilding a good portion of the rig which I just could not get in the mood for and my own health/family circumstances as well as covid etc just put the brakes on things. I would say little has changed to the rig structure in the last 2 years or so, as I have spent more time during the last 2 years learning how to improve effects. I did go out and buy a nice system rack to hold all the gear and upgrade my amps as well as other audio hardware.

Currently have a quote for an industrial solution I was looking at for the new secondary isolation the rig will use and it's not cheap, so I am pondering this at the moment as I do want to progress things with the rig after our summer holidays this year.

The rig will be shown only when it's close to being done, I want it that way and only usually put out some teaser images with the last of those now maybe from 2 years ago.

To give you a full hardware component breakdown, Im not sure that's necessary it's extreme and people scoff or think I am mental if I say more than the price of a Dbox and in the region of 15k (at current value but certainly not what I have paid) for the audio/tactile hardware my system will use. Although I have been buying and collecting tactile transducers for at least 10 years and I found many eBay bargains with a lot of that stuff.

DAW
Cubase 12 Pro
I have experimented with different options/interfaces for iPad like AUM over the last few years but it is limited to 24 channels and has other limitations. The best possible level of control as well as offering the best audio-visual or EQ plugins was via an interface and DAW. I can use my S8 Ultra tablet as a very nice wireless controller for the DAW via wifi but also for monitoring frequencies etc with whatever effects or channels are desired.

Seat
Cobra Misano 30th Anniversary / Carbon Back

Soundcards
3x SoundBlaster X3
1x SoundBlaster X4
1x EVGA NuAudio Pro 7.1

High-Quality Cabling / Interconnects = Neutrik
Dual Penn Elcom 10x Channel Power Distribution Units


Most of the general audio hardware for the tactile, not including any of the transducers.
























Previously shared images/teasers show some past experimentation including one of the first attempts with isolation and of one of the soundbars that were incorporated into each side of the rig's base/frame. The frame structure is also on industrial rubber wheels with additional sound deadening on a wooden floor. Rig size is approx 60" wide and over 60" long. As the rig is chrome it's also possible to paint it in light with Hue etc.

These as mentioned have/are in the process of being upgraded but hope it gives you a general idea that what I am doing is perhaps crazy extreme yet creative and certainly different.

 

[hawkeyez]

I think first something you need to understand.
People do not generally seek to build a cockpit with the primary intention that its main purpose is being built around achieving what will bring the best tactile performance that can be discovered.

Most people with high-end rigs will be using alu frames and then, usually, adding some tactile to the rig right?
So that's adding tactile to a rig, while my own build is focused on being built for tactile, it's a different approach based on my own interests and self-challenge to determine what it eventually becomes or can achieve with tactile and audio perspective in immersion.

As its a hobby project, this is why with on/off work being done to it, to then apply the ideas I have for the structure and isolation of the rig, to buy those materials to then build and finally test it. An example would be that I spent over £1000 testing different ideas for the rigs isolation and while they certainly helped I still was not fully satisfied.

I found because the amount of bass the project can produce is quite extreme I wasn't sure to just consider making it do or coming up with a new plan.

To re-do that means dismantling and rebuilding a good portion of the rig which I just could not get in the mood for and my own health/family circumstances as well as covid etc just put the brakes on things. I would say little has changed to the rig structure in the last 2 years or so, as I have spent more time during the last 2 years learning how to improve effects. I did go out and buy a nice system rack to hold all the gear and upgrade my amps as well as other audio hardware.

Currently have a quote for an industrial solution I was looking at for the new secondary isolation the rig will use and it's not cheap, so I am pondering this at the moment as I do want to progress things with the rig after our summer holidays this year.

The rig will be shown only when it's close to being done, I want it that way and only usually put out some teaser images with the last of those now maybe from 2 years ago.

To give you a full hardware component breakdown, Im not sure that's necessary it's extreme and people scoff or think I am mental if I say more than the price of a Dbox and in the region of 15k (at current value but certainly not what I have paid) for the audio/tactile hardware my system will use. Although I have been buying and collecting tactile transducers for at least 10 years and I found many eBay bargains with a lot of that stuff.

DAW
Cubase 12 Pro
I have experimented with different options/interfaces for iPad like AUM over the last few years but it is limited to 24 channels and has other limitations. The best possible level of control as well as offering the best audio-visual or EQ plugins was via an interface and DAW. I can use my S8 Ultra tablet as a very nice wireless controller for the DAW via wifi but also for monitoring frequencies etc with whatever effects or channels are desired.

Seat
Cobra Misano 30th Anniversary / Carbon Back

Soundcards
3x SoundBlaster X3
1x SoundBlaster X4
1x EVGA NuAudio Pro 7.1

High-Quality Cabling / Interconnects = Neutrik
Dual Penn Elcom 10x Channel Power Distribution Units


Most of the general audio hardware for the tactile, not including any of the transducers.
























Previously shared images/teasers show some past experimentation including one of the first attempts with isolation and of one of the soundbars that were incorporated into each side of the rig's base/frame. The frame structure is also on industrial rubber wheels with additional sound deadening on a wooden floor. Rig size is approx 60" wide and over 60" long. As the rig is chrome it's also possible to paint it in light with Hue etc.

These as mentioned have/are in the process of being upgraded but hope it gives you a general idea that what I am doing is perhaps crazy extreme yet creative and certainly different.

Thanks that was what I was looking for. I understand the price being high, I’ve spent a lot of money tinkering and messing around with stuff that interest me. I’ve probably got like 20k+ in music equipment including mic’s, stands, cables, instruments, software, computer hardware monitors etc. So I get that. It’s kind of embarrassing but I don’t care as it really interests me and I’ve been doing it a long time. So really it’s like $1000 a year over like 25 years lol. Not really that bad.

I think before there was a little misunderstanding or I took some comments a little too straight forward such as the “yeah maybe don’t bother…” and some remarks after that comment. I should have stated, this is what I have to work with, it’s bought and paid for Im using this stuff, any suggestions on how to make the best of it sort of thing. Anyway all good, I understand it’s not ideal equipment. But I’ll upgrade later if I want, I’m handy and mechanically inclined I can make mods pretty easily down the road. Or completely rebuild I don’t care.

Anyway, so now that I see what you’re running, doing and building, I get why some of your replies came off a little cryptic (to me anyway) this is something you’re possibly pursuing to develop and sell? Makes sense to keep a somewhat tight lid on it all. If so good luck it seems like you‘re deeply involved with it so I would think you should see some hype around it when you’ve got it all sorted and ready.

I guess why I was asking that initial question was, I’m going to be buying metal soon to build my rig, so I’m trying to find what people have found to be the best material to transmit vibrations. I know I can easily isolate feet to seat if I have to. I’ve read the trophy play seat with the G Pro rumbles quite well, so now I’m wonder if I should be sourcing some thinner metal and then use some isolators to keep feet feedback at my feet and seat feedback at my seat or if it’s even needed. My current rig transfers vibrations fairly well until it meets the chairs frame which is wood and the chair part is suspended foam basically so not a whole lot from the wheel makes it to my seat. Current metal used is 1/10th square tubing.

In your opinion is thinner metal better or thicker metal, I would assume thinner but this isn’t something I’ve experimented with. As for my puck transducers mounted to my minivan seat, it is what it is, but I’m pretty sure I’ve got a work around for that which I’ll report back on. Long story short, I put a palm sander to the spots where I was thinking to mount the pucks and put my hand on the other side where I’d be sitting and it transfers quite well but I guess we will see, time will tell as usual.

I do like how you’ve built yours to be able to break down. Mine will not be that complex, it’s going in a room and staying there, dedicated race room gaming room.

 

[Mr Latte]

Will get back later, with more info after work.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks that was what I was looking for. I understand the price being high, I’ve spent a lot of money tinkering and messing around with stuff that interest me. I’ve probably got like 20k+ in music equipment including mic’s, stands, cables, instruments, software, computer hardware monitors etc. So I get that. It’s kind of embarrassing but I don’t care as it really interests me and I’ve been doing it a long time. So really it’s like $1000 a year over like 25 years lol. Not really that bad.

I think before there was a little misunderstanding or I took some comments a little too straight forward such as the “yeah maybe don’t bother…” and some remarks after that comment. I should have stated, this is what I have to work with, it’s bought and paid for Im using this stuff, any suggestions on how to make the best of it sort of thing. Anyway all good, I understand it’s not ideal equipment. But I’ll upgrade later if I want, I’m handy and mechanically inclined I can make mods pretty easily down the road. Or completely rebuild I don’t care.

Anyway, so now that I see what you’re running, doing and building, I get why some of your replies came off a little cryptic (to me anyway) this is something you’re possibly pursuing to develop and sell? Makes sense to keep a somewhat tight lid on it all. If so good luck it seems like you‘re deeply involved with it so I would think you should see some hype around it when you’ve got it all sorted and ready.

I guess why I was asking that initial question was, I’m going to be buying metal soon to build my rig, so I’m trying to find what people have found to be the best material to transmit vibrations. I know I can easily isolate feet to seat if I have to. I’ve read the trophy play seat with the G Pro rumbles quite well, so now I’m wonder if I should be sourcing some thinner metal and then use some isolators to keep feet feedback at my feet and seat feedback at my seat or if it’s even needed. My current rig transfers vibrations fairly well until it meets the chairs frame which is wood and the chair part is suspended foam basically so not a whole lot from the wheel makes it to my seat. Current metal used is 1/10th square tubing.

In your opinion is thinner metal better or thicker metal, I would assume thinner but this isn’t something I’ve experimented with. As for my puck transducers mounted to my minivan seat, it is what it is, but I’m pretty sure I’ve got a work around for that which I’ll report back on. Long story short, I put a palm sander to the spots where I was thinking to mount the pucks and put my hand on the other side where I’d be sitting and it transfers quite well but I guess we will see, time will tell as usual.

I do like how you’ve built yours to be able to break down. Mine will not be that complex, it’s going in a room and staying there, dedicated race room gaming room.

My original message to you was intended to help you from wasting money on hardware choices that were not the best. I either forgot or assumed you had not yet bought the puck units. Go ask anyone here that is using those units to show you their own effects they use and the frequencies they apply to then see how true or false my comments have been.

Materials, steel can work well, aluminum also works well, but iron is not good.
Solid woods can work well, MDF is often used as cheap but it can create some reverb noise.

Golden Tips
1. We feel tactile via our body locations in contact with whatever the connected vibrating source is
2. It is not productive to shake a whole rig frame, nor necessary, we should avoid letting the tactile travel anywhere/everywhere
3. Decoupling in some way or level is necessary for improved performance in tactile, 100%
4. Reduce the size of the connected vibrating source object to being isolated panels/sections/frames for seat & pedals only
5. We direct/target the tactile to only shake these as the primary points of installation and contact with our bodies
6. Direct contact will help you feel stronger output inc finer bass frequencies but you also need hardware that better produces these
7. Using multiple body regions, not just seat/pedals as just areas gives us more ways to enhance/create more immersive effects

Perhaps, you should create your own thread to show your rig or go into detail from the shown images what your plans are before we can really get more of an idea what potential your plans will bring. If you want to botch something together with what you have then well sure it may seem okay but you have to decide if you want to put time/money into that and end up with something that you might enjoy but then wish you had done as recommended knowing it will be a good deal even better.

Tactile has a funny way of doing that, you can experience what it brings to add life to your rig it never had before but then want more or a better level of it. Being able to enjoy more effects at a time have those effects feel richer/fuller and this is being offered on a plate for free.



I am interested in working with owners that have the Logitech/Playseat-based tube frame with seat that is popular as this may be something we can find a simple way to mod for the multi-exciter approach too.

 

[hawkeyez]

My original message to you was intended to help you from wasting money on hardware choices that were not the best. I either forgot or assumed you had not yet bought the puck units. Go ask anyone here that is using those units to show you their own effects they use and the frequencies they apply to then see how true or false my comments have been.

Materials, steel can work well, aluminum also works well, but iron is not good.
Solid woods can work well, MDF is often used as cheap but it can create some reverb noise.

Golden Tips
1. We feel tactile via our body locations in contact with whatever the connected vibrating source is
2. It is not productive to shake a whole rig frame, nor necessary, we should avoid letting the tactile travel anywhere/everywhere
3. Decoupling in some way or level is necessary for improved performance in tactile, 100%
4. Reduce the size of the connected vibrating source object to being isolated panels/sections/frames for seat & pedals only
5. We direct/target the tactile to only shake these as the primary points of installation and contact with our bodies
6. Direct contact will help you feel stronger output inc finer bass frequencies but you also need hardware that better produces these
7. Using multiple body regions, not just seat/pedals as just areas gives us more ways to enhance/create more immersive effects

Perhaps, you should create your own thread to show your rig or go into detail from the shown images what your plans are before we can really get more of an idea what potential your plans will bring. If you want to botch something together with what you have then well sure it may seem okay but you have to decide if you want to put time/money into that and end up with something that you might enjoy but then wish you had done as recommended knowing it will be a good deal even better.

Tactile has a funny way of doing that, you can experience what it brings to add life to your rig it never had before but then want more or a better level of it. Being able to enjoy more effects at a time have those effects feel richer/fuller and this is being offered on a plate for free.



I am interested in working with owners that have the Logitech/Playseat-based tube frame with seat that is popular as this may be something we can find a simple way to mod for the multi-exciter approach too.

I do plan on documenting the build to later post as a thread and give my honest opinion of what I think (obviously nothing to compare it to) but not going to lie and say oh man it’s awesome such powerful feedback… if it’s not.

I think reading through this thread, and I’ll have to a few more times yet I’ve got a pretty good idea of what I want to do. I’ll see how it goes, if it’s week I’ll look into upgrading my stuff down the road to more powerful shakers and pull these pucks off and put them on my couch for movies or something.

Thanks for the input. Looks like I’m going to have to botch something together.

 

[imprecis]

Hey I've been looking for another person setting up tactile FB on a playseat trophy, glad to hear its working for you! How did you mount your HF8? Not sure I understand from your comment but curious how it compares to my setup - I have a single BK gamer pro mounted onto the right steel bar, using the included clamp, right under/to the right of my butt. It seems to be working well but wondering how I could improve it. Can I also ask what kind of settings/frequencies you're using for the lower Hz effects? Going below ~25hz seems to trigger a weird warbling sound in the BK, not sure if that's normal or possibly made worse by the playseat trophy / mount position. Excited to get this perfect! It already makes a massive difference

HF8 is a mat, so it attaches completely differently and is a different device (it's not audio based, so no hz). I wrapped it under my seat with the belts from the Trophy. Sadly, I won't be able to help you

 

[MadMike008]

@Mr Latte “Tactile has a funny way of doing that, you can experience what it brings to add life to your rig it never had before but then want more or a better level of it. Being able to enjoy more effects at a time have those effects feel richer/fuller and this is being offered on a plate for free.”

My confusion comes from where are you “offering this on a plate for free”? I think that’s where a lot of the tension here is coming from. It seems as if you are talking about how amazing the effects are when done the way you recommend, but then the effects are behind the wall of a special chat. I get it that it takes correct isolation, the right exciters, and the right equipment to get the most out of them. But without trying them, how will people know what is working in what setup and what is not?

Again, not looking for handouts, but as a community if we can provide input to help make things better and easier for those that come to this after us, should we not share that information freely?

If the effects you are developing are for another future income stream, as suggested earlier, then by all means keep them private and develop another stream. Or charge for them.

Either way, thanks for all the hours and work you have put into expanding everyone’s knowledge of tactile/haptic feedback in gaming!

 

[hawkeyez]

It would be nice if anybody in here with a working setup would post some pictures of a rig they’ve built whether they just threw it together or spent years building. When I’m about to take on a DIY project, I enjoy looking at what other people have done so I can analyze it and see if I can improve on it in anyway or borrow ideas from several other designs. I’ve found a lot of different diy rigs, but less with tactile feedback. It would be nice to see exactly how they’ve mounted things, run wires, whether or not they‘ve decoupled anything, and simply just show it off. You took the time to build it, let’s check it out!

I posted a fix for a wheel, I wasn’t going to but decided to anyway. Some like to question the integrity of the post or whatever, makes me think why did I bother, then one person has the issue, tries it out, fixes the wheel and thanks me. Right on. That’s what it’s about. I hope I can accomplish the same for others when I post my diy rig. Almost got the garage cleaned up and organized to begin soon. Should take me long once I get started. Stay tuned!

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte “Tactile has a funny way of doing that, you can experience what it brings to add life to your rig it never had before but then want more or a better level of it. Being able to enjoy more effects at a time have those effects feel richer/fuller and this is being offered on a plate for free.”

My confusion comes from where are you “offering this on a plate for free”? I think that’s where a lot of the tension here is coming from. It seems as if you are talking about how amazing the effects are when done the way you recommend, but then the effects are behind the wall of a special chat. I get it that it takes correct isolation, the right exciters, and the right equipment to get the most out of them. But without trying them, how will people know what is working in what setup and what is not?

Again, not looking for handouts, but as a community if we can provide input to help make things better and easier for those that come to this after us, should we not share that information freely?

If the effects you are developing are for another future income stream, as suggested earlier, then by all means keep them private and develop another stream. Or charge for them.

Either way, thanks for all the hours and work you have put into expanding everyone’s knowledge of tactile/haptic feedback in gaming!

Sorry if you feel there is tension, over 40 people asked to join, they were given access, and they are asked to comment on each effect that was released within the group. I think we have a good range of people with various hardware from the more popular budget options. It's rather casual but it's up to those people what feedback they offer and from that I base what time or effort I put in to share or adapt specific effects to either the basic/budget transducers (less feedback is forthcoming) or towards the concept I also want to offer/share and promote. So I am driven by what people report back on, what works better or what is not working so well.

Often I find I can get 1 person to give more feedback than 10 others. It's always been like that, but those that test/try encourage me, then I will work to try to help them. Some prefer to give feedback in private, and that's okay but if we see that most get access, and offer little back in chatting with others, raising their own experiences then I place my focus elsewhere.

What has happened within the group is that more people have been vocal or interested in the mult-exciter concept and there has been more feedback from a few of the guys in relation to that. Less chat between people from the users with their own already installed various budget hardware.

I will grant you access to see what feedback you bring based on what you currently have been using in effects to how the shared options are working. If you put in the time to help with shaping effects to get the best from the hardware you have, it will be welcomed. I am just getting frustrated with people being given access and then doing little as that does not help achieve what the goals are.

The reason for the closed chat is to work towards having effects that have then been pre-made and tested on various hardware.
I will offer my own thread at some point based on the feedback and findings to then freely share these with the general forum and include a batch of effects for the community.

 

[Mr Latte]

@MadMike008
So now you see that

1) Within the private chat, the shared effects are entirely FREE no income revenue, no intentions to seek any form of membership/access/paywall

2) The intention is to release different/adapted effects to the group based on "their" feedback and testing

3) Its upto the community members who sought an invitation to decide whether to help or not

 

[MadMike008]

Thanks for the invite. Catching up!

 

[Cyphrex]

Hello community
I've been following this thread for some time and already have the following components at home.
8 x DAEX30HESF4
1x Tst209
1xBK Lfe
1X Behringer NX3000
1x Douk Audio M4
1x CSl 7.1
Also waiting for the Racebass Kit.
My question would be about the stereo pair P1, P2, P3. Are the pairs on one channel connected in series or all separately?
Because then I'll probably need another 4 Channel Douk, right?
I haven't wired them yet..

 

[Mr Latte]

Nice seat and illustration but personally not my recommendation of the best exciter for the role/purpose.
It appears you are applying much of my own shared efforts/configuration but following advice either from GV or Peter.

In my view.....
DAEX30HESF4 is less efficient and requires more amplifier power and from that, I believe some then get the perception it is a better choice. Yet as a unit, it is bulkier/heavier and more unsightly in appearance, and why the originally recommended and selected unit, is to use the DAEX32EP-4

What advice you get may vary... but if asking the guy that came up with the concept and still/works on making effects for it?

The role of the exciters is not to achieve the best punch in low bass or apply too much wattage with them but instead to have them incorporate well as pairs/groups of units. Part of this role is to achieve a wider mid-high frequency output, to maintain individual control of each, and also to place specific sensations into specific body locations, meaning we can also better experience multiple effects operating at once. All things a traditional approach with a single unit attached to a rig/seat or with 4 corners installations just can not deliver or achieve in immersion.


Wiring units in series/parallel...
So it may help deliver more felt substance but in my own view (as an effects developer). We can better achieve more substance with the additional units in your arsenal and from lower frequencies. A TST for instance can deliver much better energy with mid-range bass than let's say 2x exciters wired together for a seat or on pedals. So If more specific energy for certain frequencies was needed within an effect, then we simply can apply additional effect layers to use for that purpose over a TST or BK depending on the desired sensation to work in conjunction with the exciters.

If we do not maintain individual channel control, then we defeat/remove one of the benefits Simhub brings with tactile over other software. This is the ability to control (each channel) and send to each channel what we want regarding frequencies and settings.
Its best to have this when it comes to options for creating or displacing effects.

For the price of a second amp, yes I recommend you get that and not wire units together.

Because my approach to tactile and the effects I can build for it are increasingly not the same as the traditional methods.
More advanced effects do not necessarily output the same thing to each channel like wiring together is limited to.

So anyone that incorporates "Exciters Wired Together" on a seat or on pedals is not following my own guidelines or fully understands the benefits of 2 units wired in such a way do not outweigh the benefits we can achieve by "maintaining independent control" of each unit or how we then apply specific layers/frequencies to other units like the TST/BK to deliver better overall immersion.

The problem is, certain people want to take parts of what I have shared or doing and then apply their own ideas or methods but these people are not aware of or use improved methods with effects creation that I have continued to discover. Part of the reason for that is that any effects shared on GV by me are based on earlier work from 2021 and do not apply the new approaches I discovered by using musical principles for effects during late 2022 that nobody else tinkering with tactile appeared to of considered or was doing.


Please note, that the effects shared here and the focus is on PS5/GT7 and not PC Sims.

 

[Cyphrex]

Thanks for the detailed answer. I will order a second amp. I first discovered Peter's thread and read it there. I discovered this one when I had already bought the hardware. I only play on the ps5 by the way.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for clarifying that.
Some of the effects with GT7 needed different settings in Simhub and I started fresh with this as a title so there may be some issues trying to use previous effects originally developed on ACC via PC.

As a concept things are still in an experimental phase so it's good to get more people to help when they can.

The P1 P2 P3 with M1 M2 implementation brings a lot of potential in how we go about applying and using multiple effects.
It's not so easy to find people to devote much time to testing with regards to new effects development and so far few people have the 8-way exciters implementation never mind the high-end hardware like TST/LFE my concept can accommodate.

 

[Mr Latte]

One of the things that can happen is, so many people give different advice, and tactile has various elements regarding what you get from it or how well it may be. This is a primary reason for me to work on developing this concept testing with others to then freely offer it as an excellent working solution to be enjoyed.

An example of one element that may alter how/what people may feel is the soundcard.

Here I will highlight one from Peter's own GV guide and which also repeatedly gets recommended on the Simhub Discord. Just a quick comparison of that LEAGY model to another (budget) soundcard I have instead recommended people here use, as the Startech 7.1 model.

Look closely over A/B/C as we see clearly one delivers a better output with the exact same settings from Simhub.
The Startech 7.1 soundcard produces more frequencies from generated effects at equal volumes for the same dB levels as that of the LEAGY soundcard. The differences may not look like much but these can indeed be a factor. This can also help with low bass roll-off but that is more relevant perhaps with tactile hardware which can better utilise this (like large Buttkickers) than with typical budget transducers.

This helps as the first point in reducing the variations people will feel from generated effects using various or different soundcards and I believe is relevant to help ensure people can then feel from effects created and tested (with the same hardware) more similarities in suitable settings on their own rigs. This then helps with sharing effect profiles between users and those with the same hardware.

Yet in places like Simhubs own Discord channel, you will get people with very little experience in tactile, not even taking into account differences with soundcards as if this is non-essential or irrelevant when it comes to users trying to share effects or make things on one rig/setup work well on another with varied hardware in soundcards/amps and installations.

My approach is based on testing and recommending "specific hardware" I found to work well. So when I create effects using "that specific hardware" then I can be more sure of what people are going to experience is closer or more accurate to the intended sensations the effects were developed to deliver.

Things become messy when you start letting people use different exciters, use different soundcards, use different amps yet all try to use the same or similar effects. It just won't work and it then defeats part of the purpose of trying to simplify or use what is the best-discovered combinations of hardware to use.

To date, the Startech 7.1 soundcard would be my recommended soundcard for budget users.
However, the Creative X3 still can even outperform it and is amongst the best soundcards I have tested for tactile.

 

[shadow0460]

I also wonder if PSVR2 will add haptics on the headset for this game. What effect could it add?

It does. It's a single motor that seems to have a few different things it can do. Usually a hard impact causes the headset to vibrate, but I noticed yesterday that driving into a wall produced a sensation like being rapped on the forehead with a styrofoam bat.
My headset feedback is gentle even on maximum settings. It's not painful but it will encourage the user to avoid collisions.

 

[Skyblue]

Has anyone found collisions/crashes in gt7 to have lower levels of tactile feedback than expected? Increasing Road Impacts in simhub doesn’t seem to do anything. I get great feedback with other types of effects (road vibration, engine noise, etc) in my setup, so I don’t think it’s that.

I play with PSVR2 and what’s interesting is that the headset does provide some feedback with many crashes/collisions, which suggests the telemetry data is available.

 

[morfei1]

Yesterday, I finally finished my DIY bass shakers project and connected it via SimHub to GT7. The end result was LOL with a big smile😁. It's a whole new experience in GT7 having tactical transducers.

The setup is:
2x Reckhorns BS-200i - 100w RMS each
1x Fosi Audio v3 - 2x100w at 4ohme with 32v 5a PSU.

1 is under the pedal tray, the other is under my seat.

The amp is connected to my PC build-in card, which is running in 5.1 or 4 channel mode ( it doesn't matter much for 2 channel setup).

On the regular front channels I have my stereo connected for better stereo sound and on the second channel - rear the Fosi Audi v3 is connected to power on the tactical transducers.

That way, I don't need and I don't have to buy extra usb external sound card.

In SimHub, front channels are disabled and only rear are setup to shake the rig.

You can check my SimHub settings in the below.
Nothing special - simple, stock and working very good for me to give me enough sensasation and immersion in the game paired with a G Pro wheel.
The amp. volume knob is pointing 3 o'clock.




Have fun and enjoy the game!✌️

 

[fl0PPsy]

@MadMike008
So now you see that

1) Within the private chat, the shared effects are entirely FREE no income revenue, no intentions to seek any form of membership/access/paywall

2) The intention is to release different/adapted effects to the group based on "their" feedback and testing

3) Its upto the community members who sought an invitation to decide whether to help or not

Hi Mr Latte,

How can we get access to the private chat?

At the moment I have a Butt Kicker Pro Under the seat, 1 BST-1 at the back of the seat and another BST-1 under the pedals. Its all being driven by a Startech 7.1 usb soundcard using a Fosi Audio TB10D and Buttkicker amp.

I have 4 of the little Dayton Audio TT25 pucks spare which I will probably add also but I havent decided yet where and I need to design and 3D Print the custom mounts when I work out where to put them. This is all being mounted to a NLR F-GT Elite cockpit.

I'd love to explore how far this can be taken and provide feedback not just in GT7 but in the other sims I race in too like Assetto, AM2, FH5 etc.

 

[hawkeyez]

Quick question, anybody notice if you have engine vibration on, even low like 10% the shakers keep going until you press X enough times to get out of the post race menu screens? I can see the levels running away even when I’m not driving post race. Seems like either something simhub could fix or GT7.

*** I‘ll have to make a thread but I finally finished my rig. Running the Dayton Audio TT25’s, I still have to add one to the pedal board but I’ve got five on my seat right now paired with the nobsound mini amps. They’re at about 60% volume, and most SimHub effects are 90% or lower. Most are quite a bit lower. I’m sure glad I went ahead with tactile feedback it adds a lot, even if you run it low then take it off, you realize how much more immersive it is. They seem more than powerful enough, any stronger and they’d start distracting you from the Logitech G Pro feedback IMO.

I’ll get a thread started with pictures and some details. I have a few more finishing touches yet.

 

[MadMike008]

Absolutely. That ghost vibration can be annoying after the racing ends!