GTP Cool Wall: 2013+ Jaguar F-Type

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2013+ Jaguar F-Type


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RE: manual vs automatic transmissions - this is one area where I'm actually straight up opposed to any sort of advancement or development.

The world would be a better place if development of automatic transmissions had stalled out completely back when they were all useless 4-speed boat anchors that wasted gas and caused lots of horsepower to get lost in transmission. I've said before that manual transmissions - especially in mainstream cars - will die out if the people who don't really care about driving don't have any pragmatic reason to buy them, such as saving gas or just making sure the car can get out of its own way if need be. Looks like it's happening to sports cars too.

TL;DR automatic transmissions must suck so normal people - commuters, people who bought a fast car just to show off, teenagers who'd rather take public transport anyway so they can continue to txt while moving from place to place - will have good reasons not to buy them.
What do you mean one? You've made it perfectly visible you are against anything that betters fuel economy, horsepower, practicality & anything of the sort if it means a couple less cylinders.

We would still be fighting the cold war & stuck with black & white television if people like you had any authority. :rolleyes:
 
But because of the way this subject unfolds every time, I suppose I'm just an unenlightened luddite and will have to "deal with it."

Make no mistake... it's sad, but that's the way things go.

I think the "OMGAllManualsAreGoingToDisappear!" movement is a bit presumptuous... and alarmist. I don't mind, really, if luxury manufacturers go all automatic. Will never own one brand new (even if I could possibly afford one) and such complex and expensive machines would be a nightmare to buy secondhand.

Sports cars will still get manuals. Because that is their market. Cheap cars will still get manuals. And will continue to get manuals until someone figures out how to make a six-speed auto that costs less than a manual to build.

Which means Fiestas and Mazda2s and Miatas and 86's galore secondhand over the next decade for those of us who enjoy driving. Which isn't a bad thing, really.
 
But because of the way this subject unfolds every time, I suppose I'm just an unenlightened luddite and will have to "deal with it."
When I said that to W&N I meant essentially that he needs to deal with the fact that automatics can replace manuals to the majority of consumers. The key difference to me is the words "for my own" in your post, your view is that you prefer manuals on a personal level and believe that if others tried it they would enjoy it too. Nerdy's point is that the people driving automatics are ruining America and it's a moral issue that companies are improving their automatics.

It is what it is though unfortunately, for everyone who calls manual drivers luddites the converse is people implying automatic drivers aren't real car guys or they're soccer moms or whatever. If you got that out of my post I apologize, it wasn't my intention to have a go at anyone besides Ivory & Scholarly. It's one thing to be an enthusiast and have preferences, and it's another to be a luddite.
 
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And the huge preponderance of sucky two- and three-speed automatic boat anchors in the 60's and 70's prevented them from gaining market dominance... how?

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You've got it backwards. Automatics are getting better because people are buying them and manufacturers have to meet fuel economy requirements.

People would still buy four-speed autos if they were still available. In fact, they are still available, and still selling to people who don't give two whits about how many gears are in their box.

Ironically, why would you want completely uncool people to buy manual transmissions? Do you feel guilt by association because your Sunfire has a slushbox?

Actually, it has a manual.

My problem with it is just what we're seeing here - as mainstram buyers move ever farther away from manuals, the ability to find one in a new car decreases. And now it's moving upscale, as seen with this car and the Lamborghini Huracan. Perhaps these manufacturers have cynically assumed that no one buying these cars will ever use even 50% of their capabilities, or that the ones who do are tech snobs who would rather have an F1 transmission to brag about than an actually fun-to-drive car (and sadly, that seemed to actually be the case in the last years of the Gallardo, which is even sadder when you realize it apparently had an excellent manual.)

It's more that I just don't care to turn it into a moral issue. Any car I would reasonably be able to afford and would want with a manual I can get with a manual. The FRS/BRZ, Miatas, Focus/Fiesta ST, GTI, any older muscle car (Cougar, Chevelle/Camaro SS, etc), M3, the list goes on and on. There's plenty of cars available both new and old that are found with manuals. I'm not worried that newer cars aren't being sold with manuals because in most cases the cars I want with a manual are sold with manuals.

Not for long, apparently.

Any car I would want with an auto or semi auto I can get with one. If I buy a luxury car or SUV to cruise in I don't want a manual. I don't care to have a manual in a commuter car because they can be annoying in stop and go traffic.

Worth it. Besides, you get used to it after a while. It can be annoying to hold the clutch in at a long light, you can always just take it out of gear and hole the brake. The extra two seconds required to put it back in gear won't be the end of the world.

@Wolfe I was beginning to suspect some GTP'ers wouldn't even object to mainstream sale of autonomous cars. The problem with things like that is that they have the pontential to become infectious. If autonomous cars become a hit with commuters, and they probably will, forget about ever getting an entry-level car that isn't autonomous.

And that's the problem with just about any technological advancement that increases the complication of, or decreases the driver involvement of, a car. It doesn't just stay in the luxury segment and cater to the kinds of people who buy luxury cars, it spreads elsewhere. If it doesn't die out immediately, it's eventually going to find its way into other cars and other types of cars, eventually sequestering everything fun and cool about driving behind yet another layer of technology. It's already happened with drive-by-wire, and that's probably going to expand into brake-by-wire and steer-by-wire in everything soon enough. It just plain drives me nuts to see mechanical connections between input device and mechanism be replaced by electronics. While a few exceptions can be made, such as for the manual ignition-timing and choke controls of very, very old cars, now it's just getting ridiculous.
 
I like driving too much to want an autonomous car.
 
@Wolfe I was beginning to suspect some GTP'ers wouldn't even object to mainstream sale of autonomous cars. The problem with things like that is that they have the pontential to become infectious. If autonomous cars become a hit with commuters, and they probably will, forget about ever getting an entry-level car that isn't autonomous.
Nobody here has made any kind of remark that supports anything of such nature. Thus, I can not wait til' a mod smacks you with a ban for these continuous little cheap shots you throw at everyone who doesn't agree with your holier-than-thou opinion on cars.
 
I was being literal, and mostly wasn't even talking about Wolfe. He's just the one who brough them up.
Where did Wolfe bring up autonomous cars b/c I don't see it. And of course you weren't talking about Wolfe. We're not stupid, we know exactly who it is you're referring to by "some GTP'ers". You've made these remarks before.
 
"bring on the driverless cars, as long as they don't become compulsory"

There.

And that really is the impression I got from a couple recent posts.
 
Autonomous cars can go to hell.


It will be one cold day in hell before you even see me stand next to one.
 
Not for long, apparently.

Yes for long. The people in the market for sports cars and the like want manuals more than people buying Accords and Camries. The newest GTI can be bought with a manual, the newest Focus and Fiesta ST's don't have automatic options. The Mustang will have a manual for the forseeable future, the Camaro has one. All these cars are still being offered with manuals today, and they'll be available on the used car market for years to come.

The Chevrolet Cruze which you hold up as everything wrong with cars is offered with a manual. Even the Eco model comes with a manual. The Spark and Sonic are still offered with one, and I wouldn't be shocked if there was an Impala SS model with a manual before long.

Worth it. Besides, you get used to it after a while. It can be annoying to hold the clutch in at a long light, you can always just take it out of gear and hole the brake. The extra two seconds required to put it back in gear won't be the end of the world.
Depends on the situation I guess. If I live in the country or a smaller town/city I probably wouldn't mind driving a manual daily, but if I end up driving on Toronto highways daily then forget it.

@Wolfe I was beginning to suspect some GTP'ers wouldn't even object to mainstream sale of autonomous cars. The problem with things like that is that they have the pontential to become infectious. If autonomous cars become a hit with commuters, and they probably will, forget about ever getting an entry-level car that isn't autonomous.

And that's the problem with just about any technological advancement that increases the complication of, or decreases the driver involvement of, a car. It doesn't just stay in the luxury segment and cater to the kinds of people who buy luxury cars, it spreads elsewhere. If it doesn't die out immediately, it's eventually going to find its way into other cars and other types of cars, eventually sequestering everything fun and cool about driving behind yet another layer of technology. It's already happened with drive-by-wire, and that's probably going to expand into brake-by-wire and steer-by-wire in everything soon enough. It just plain drives me nuts to see mechanical connections between input device and mechanism be replaced by electronics. While a few exceptions can be made, such as for the manual ignition-timing and choke controls of very, very old cars, now it's just getting ridiculous.
I love how you just make a couple of caveats at the very end and render your whole position logically inconsistent.

Here's the thing, for millions of years (or somewhere in the realm of 5800 years) humans haven't been driving cars. We've been driving them for about a hundred some odd years in large numbers, and the car as it is known today has maybe another 50-100 some odd years as the dominant mode of transportation. Even today, only about 10% of the world population own a car.

In spite of this, you talk about driving as if it is some experience that is innate to the human experience. Do you think there weren't people lamenting the demise of horse drawn carriages when trains became widespread? The end of passenger train travel when Henry Ford and his Model T's started popping up everywhere? The end of ocean liners now that jets can cross the Atlantic? Some day in the far future there will be a new mode of transportation that renders autonomous cars obsolete, and there will be people wanting to go back to a simpler time when you sat in your car and it drove you somewhere rather than just being teleported.

Autonomous cars can go to hell.


It will be one cold day in hell before you even see me stand next to one.

Won't be very long until they're on the market. The technology is already almost there.
 
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"bring on the driverless cars, as long as they don't become compulsory"

There.

And that really is the impression I got from a couple recent posts.
I like how you took it out of the parentheses. It wasn't something he brought up, it was an added remark to his original statement about those who don't care about driving shouldn't be in the first place.

You just decided to run away with it on a silly rhapsody.
 
Because I view driving is an integral part of freedom. (for that reason I also object to location-based services or anything else that tracks your location/driving habits). As far as I'm concerned, driving is the most convenient way to travel long distances at a moment's notice and have fun doing it. There's just something about it that's missing from other forms of transportation, and the mechanical operation of things (such as via a manual transmission and cable-operated throttle) enhances that something. Noise, vibration, and harshness are important parts of the experience, not annoyances to be filtered out. It should shake and rumble at idle. It should lurch forward when you tap the throttle, instead of running your input through a comfort-calibrated DBW system and a torque converter. The steering and suspension should inform you of what the road is like and what the car is doing. I despise attempts to filter these things out (to my way of thinking, active noise cancellation shouldn't even be a thing), or to simulate them electronically (such as BMW's idea for a shift-by-wire manual - talk about missing the point, even if they will apparently try to simulate the feel of an actual manual).
 
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Because I view driving is an integral part of freedom. (for that reason I also object to location-based services or anything else that tracks your location/driving habits). As far as I'm concerned, driving is the most convenient way to travel long distances at a moment's notice and have fun doing it. There's just something about it that's missing from other forms of transportation, and the mechanical operation of things (such as via a manual transmission and cable-operated throttle) enhances that something. Noise, vibration, and harshness are important parts of the experience, not annoyances to be filtered out.
While I personally agree with you on this you also need to remember that a lot of people simply don't like those things you listed.

To us it can be tough to comprehend but that's the reality of things.
 
as mainstram buyers move ever farther away from manuals, the ability to find one in a new car decreases.

Hmm? The graph clearly shows the take rate on automatics has been well over 80% for the past several decades. The last decade where you could find more manuals than autos is the 50's.

Perhaps these manufacturers have cynically assumed that no one buying these cars will ever use even 50% of their capabilities,

Given the price, this is true whatever transmission is in the car. Especially if you don't care for $20,000 clutch changes.

tech snobs who would rather have an F1 transmission to brag about than an actually fun-to-drive car

And why do F1 cars have semi-automatic gearboxes, again? To go faster? And why is anyone buying a 500-600 horsepower sports car instead of a Miata? To go faster, right? So, why, pray tell, do you want the slower transmission if you're putting out money on a six-figure supercar with all-wheel drive?

While I'm personal to manuals, myself, have you ever driven anything with four hundred or more horsepower?

It's exhilirating, yes. For that one day a week you can actually let loose and head for the hills.

For the other six days when you have to commute to work, it's a chore.


While a few exceptions can be made, such as for the manual ignition-timing and choke controls of very, very old cars, now it's just getting ridiculous.

No love for hydraulic power steering, hydraulically assisted brakes, hydraulically assisted clutches, and synchromesh gearboxes? Those arguably remove a whole lot of car-to-driver communication and interaction. :D

Noise, vibration, and harshness are important parts of the experience, not annoyances to be filtered out.

Sorry, unless you follow my lead and install a straight-through exhaust, replace all your engine mounts and suspension bushings with solid polyurethane, and cam your engine so hard it won't idle without your right foot on the gas while you wait at the stoplight, it's hard to take that stance seriously.

Besides... want a car that doesn't filter it all out? Get a Miata. Or an 86. Not a luxury toy for hedge fund managers, CEOs and rappers.
 
Because I view driving is an integral part of freedom. (for that reason I also object to location-based services or anything else that tracks your location/driving habits). As far as I'm concerned, driving is the most convenient way to travel long distances at a moment's notice and have fun doing it. There's just something about it that's missing from other forms of transportation, and the mechanical operation of things (such as via a manual transmission and cable-operated throttle) enhances that something. Noise, vibration, and harshness are important parts of the experience, not annoyances to be filtered out.
One of the worst examples. Most people doing a long distance trip will more than likely have the car in the highest gear the majority of the trip, so who cares what transmission it has. And noise, vibration, and harshness are totally things every person wants to subject themselves to for a couple hours.

I doubt either of you have driven anything remotely nice on an actual long distance trip that would give you any experience to reflect on.
 
Because I view driving is an integral part of freedom. (for that reason I also object to location-based services or anything else that tracks your location/driving habits). As far as I'm concerned, driving is the most convenient way to travel long distances at a moment's notice and have fun doing it. There's just something about it that's missing from other forms of transportation, and the mechanical operation of things (such as via a manual transmission and cable-operated throttle) enhances that something. Noise, vibration, and harshness are important parts of the experience, not annoyances to be filtered out.

You could just as easily say the same thing about riding a horse and the connection between a man and his horse that mechanical horseless carriages can't replicate.

Or riding a train and watching the world go by, or riding an ocean liner at open sea. You can romanticize anything, that doesn't mean it never changes or becomes obsolete. Why is drive by wire and an automatic transmission bad, but a choke control or a crank start is fine to automate? Why is the arbitrary line you've drawn more pure than anyone else's?

I doubt either of you have driven anything remotely nice on an actual long distance trip that would give you any experience to reflect on.

Yup. While growing up my family and I drove 2000km to visit family and then the same trip in reverse to go back home. Was awful in the old POS Windstar, but a very nice drive in a Buick Enclave or VW Touareg. I love spirited driving as much as the next guy but I wouldn't want to drive my uncle's 79 Firebird for 10 hours on end.
 
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Besides... want a car that doesn't filter it all out? Get a Miata. Or an 86. Not a luxury toy for hedge fund managers, CEOs and rappers.

"Miata is too cutesy and the largest engine is 2.0L." :rolleyes:
 
and cam your engine so hard it won't idle without your right foot on the gas while you wait at the stoplight

If your engine won't idle with a huge cam, your idle speed is set wrong...
 
And why do F1 cars have semi-automatic gearboxes, again? To go faster? And why is anyone buying a 500-600 horsepower sports car instead of a Miata? To go faster, right? So, why, pray tell, do you want the slower transmission if you're putting out money on a six-figure supercar with all-wheel drive?

I once heard it said that "lap times only matter if they're paying the bills". If you're buying the car for reasons other than sanctioned competitive activity, it's the sensation of speed that makes a car fun to drive, and something about a manual enhances that somehow.

One of the worst examples. Most people doing a long distance trip will more than likely have the car in the highest gear the majority of the trip, so who cares what transmission it has. And noise, vibration, and harshness are totally things every person wants to subject themselves to for a couple hours.

It all depends on how you look at it. I tend to keep it fun by looking for excuses to downshift and floor it - such as a car I don't like overtaking me, or someone barging through when I try to move over and let merging traffic in.
 
No it doesn't.

A manual enhances the sense of involvement. Speed and a lack of noise insulation enhances the sense of speed.

Put another way: Find me a rollercoaster or a rocket-powered car with a manual transmission.

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RE: Idle:

Well, W&N says the only old technologies he'd happily give up are the manual choke and the manual ignition advance. No way to set a regular car to idle at 2k rpm when cold and then drop to 1k rpm when warm unless you have a manual choke or a fully programmable ECU.
 
Slash deals with older, probably carburated cars, so no ECU for him. And those were examples, because it's midnight here and I didn't feel like constructing an exhaustive list of every technology that can possibly be added to a car.
 
Well, W&N says the only old technologies he'd happily give up are the manual choke and the manual ignition advance. No way to set a regular car to idle at 2k rpm when cold and then drop to 1k rpm when warm unless you have a manual choke or a fully programmable ECU.
Electric chokes will drop the RPM wether warm or cold if you blip the throttle lol.
 
It all depends on how you look at it. I tend to keep it fun by looking for excuses to downshift and floor it - such as a car I don't like overtaking me, or someone barging through when I try to move over and let merging traffic in.
Nobody does this on long distance trips enough times to help your argument. Doesn't change the fact about noise or harshness, either.
 
If you listen closely you can still hear the whizz of the point flying over your head.
I got the point. I was just throwing that out there while we were on the topic :lol:
 
Nobody does this on long distance trips enough times to help your argument. Doesn't change the fact about noise or harshness, either.

Cherry Bombs. Wish I had some. If you had some you'd probably start doing it too, just for the sound.
 
Cherry bombs are the worst sounding tin cans I have ever heard.


You can get much better mufflers for the same price than those. For what they do you might as well run straight pipes.
 
Can you think of a better glasspack? Can you think of anything else that equals the distinctively rough, choppy sound of a glasspack muffler? Also, straight pipes are probably illegal.
 
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