GTP_WRS (GT5) Week 9 : New School Nürburgring

[GTP_Plato]

Ok I am getting into the 35s in T1 a bit more regular now but the problem is now lying in T2. I would appreciate any help with the first corner after T1 as I think I am struggling there the most. What gear are you guys going into the turn using, and are you going in wide or taking it tight. Thanks for any help in advance as I am now struggling on this sector, yesterday it was the other way round, struggling on T1 but fine in T2

These are my recent splits, quicker at the line but a horrible T2

35.927
23.922

 

[NINE_HUNDRED]

T1: 37.270
t2: 24.508

 

[Sureboss]

Ok I am getting into the 35s in T1 a bit more regular now but the problem is now lying in T2. I would appreciate any help with the first corner after T1 as I think I am struggling there the most. What gear are you guys going into the turn using, and are you going in wide or taking it tight. Thanks for any help in advance as I am now struggling on this sector, yesterday it was the other way round, struggling on T1 but fine in T2

These are my recent splits, quicker at the line but a horrible T2

35.927
23.922

I'm sacrificing the entry to the first part so I can hit the apex earlier on the exit can get on the power much earlier. I drop down to 2nd, helps to pull the car round. Shift slightly early in to 3rd on exit for better traction. Been getting consistent .5s in T2 today, but T1 was all wrong.👎

 

[Apollo33]

I would appreciate any help with the first corner after T1 as I think I am struggling there the most. What gear are you guys going into the turn using, and are you going in wide or taking it tight.

I think I'm doing that one right--I basically turn it into a V. Crossing the T1 line I'm at the outside and aimed at the inside of the track. I brake hard in a straight line so as I ease off and start to turn (pretty sharply) I'm on the outside edge of the track. Once I've turned I'm far enough through the turn that I can give it full throttle. Any other way I've tried it I slide or spin out. But of course I defer to any faster guys if they have different advice--I mostly wanted to see if I'm right.

 

[GTP_Plato]

Thanks for the help guys:tup:

I will give it a shot and see what I come up with. This track is not going to get the better of me this week ( I hope )

 

[Synwraith]

Here's something fun for you to get your teeth into if the combo isn't working out for you

I did a few more laps today and saved the replay to try and highlight some of the difficulties we might have in replay verification this week due to the difficult nature of Nurburgring GP's track boundaries.

Have a look at these pictures...

1) In the above picture we can clearly see that the contact patch of the right-rear tyre is on the green painted tarmac which is not considered track. However, maybe we should consider the whole tyre and whether or not the outside right tyre wall is vertically in line with the white line...

2) Once again capturing the same moment from a different angle, there seems to be clear daylight between the tyre and the white line, singalling a dirty lap. From this angle it appears conclusive that the tyre wall is not close to the white line. However, what about the rear of the tyre, the trailing edge at the back...

3) Demonstrating that the photomode angle is of the utmost importance in judging something legal or illegal, this image seems to imply that the trailing edge of the right-rear ture is in fact vertically in line with the red/white rumble strip immediately behind it.

The freeze frame immediately after this (achieved with lightning quick double-start-button push!) shows a clean snapshot with the tyre on the white line from all angles.

But based on the above 3 angles of the same moment, would you class this as clean or dirty?

Replay verification will be fun this week...

All the best
Maz

 

[jbrinkley0826]

First of all, I wouldn't submit it. :-) too close and could go either way, I'd say dirty though, the second and third pic look like its not even vertical with the line. The first pic would prolly be best if it was more to the right and lined up with the white line...

Third pic looks like you see a strip of green between line and tire..... to me anyway. very close for sure and the mods would have to make this decision, which is something I don't ever want to happen, they have better things to do then make close decision calls like this. I've had fast laps like this and even though I hate to, I dump them and try to repeat it with cleaner laps.

 

[Anghammarad]

Well, it is dirty unless it is judged in the same way as Suzuka after Degner 2 where the rumble stops in a similar manner but a lap nevertheless was considered clean if the trajectory was towards the track.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Can't wait to get home and try and figure out T1. I'm really surprised my measly 1 hour's effort is holding it's own on the LB, haha.

Jerome

 

[GTP_Plato]

@ Synwraith

I have only been doing the WRS for a few weeks as you know but haven't been scarred to express my opinion when it comes to what is deemed a clean lap. For example, a couple of weeks ago at Monaco I could not see how a lap was classed clean if "as you put it" a smidgen of your outer tyre is in contact with the rumble strip at all times. In other words you can have basically your whole car inside that rumble strip giving you the chance to pretty much have a straight exit out of that chicane. Name me another game that would allow you to do this without flagging you for it.

Another example would have been the Top Gear Test Track last week. Now I am not picking on Rudi here as he is only following the rules like the rest of us, but how can you class a lap clean when the whole car is clearly on the grass with a very small portion of the outside tyre on the track, again name me another game that will allow this lap and not invalidate it.

The race admins have a tough enough job as it is without having to spend time verifying laps that could prove hard to capture with the current photo mode options, why not make it easier for these guys instead of what I would say bending the rules of track racing.

This is just my point of view, but think changing things to the way they should be on a race track will make things a lot easier for everyone including participants in the WRS series.

As for your pictures, pure filth in my opinion

Surely there is some support from participants in the WRS, or am I the only one who feels this way, like I said it will make things a lot easier for everyone in the long run ( especially admin ) or is this post a complete waste of time.

Not a complaint guys just a suggestion

 

[mcfizzle]

New Splits:
T1 0'36.441
T2: 0'23.948

 

[Synwraith]

@ Synwraith

I have only been doing the WRS for a few weeks as you know but haven't been scarred to express my opinion when it comes to what is deemed a clean lap. For example, a couple of weeks ago at Monaco I could not see how a lap was classed clean if "as you put it" a smidgen of your outer tyre is in contact with the rumble strip at all times. In other words you can have basically your whole car inside that rumble strip giving you the chance to pretty much have a straight exit out of that chicane. Name me another game that would allow you to do this without flagging you for it.

Another example would have been the Top Gear Test Track last week. Now I am not picking on Rudi here as he is only following the rules like the rest of us, but how can you class a lap clean when the whole car is clearly on the grass with a very small portion of the outside tyre on the track, again name me another game that will allow this lap and not invalidate it.

Unfortunately we are not playing another game, and we are going by what GT5 allows and what the rules of WRS have been for the past few years, along with what can realistically be policed, standardised, verified within the boundaries of our time, the participants' time and the tools at our disposal.

The race admins have a tough enough job as it is without having to spend time verifying laps that could prove hard to capture with the current photo mode options, why not make it easier for these guys instead of what I would say bending the rules of track racing.

I think if the first few weeks of WRS have demonstrated anything it is that regardless of the combo, rules, regulations, boundaries, restrictions, parameters, cats dogs and bananas, if there are envelopes to be pushed then people will find them and push them. That is the nature of time trial competitions and it's not going to change anytime soon IMO.

As for your pictures, pure filth in my opinion

I have said before that I have no intention of running this week or submitting, and these pictures were not meant to be verified for posting by the members. I was interested in getting you lot used to what to expect for the replays this week. If you are still struggling to understand where some folks are gaining time on you in T1 then these pictures might be a clue to that.

Now that all of that is out of the way I can get somewhat back on track and show you this:

The white arrows indicate where the rear of the tyre, not the contact patch, is vertically in line with the red/white rumble strip which is considered track. Keep in mind also:

• 2 wheels on (or vertically in line with) the track at all times

It's not as clear cut as you may think.

All the best
Maz

 

[Anghammarad]

This is just my point of view, but think changing things to the way they should be on a race track will make things a lot easier for everyone including participants in the WRS series.

And how is that? All wheels on the track? Furthermore, how do you suggest that it should be enforced? Regardless of which rules you set for when a lap is clean or dirty there will always be a blurry line. These are the rules that has been used for many years now and even though they might lack in places they are as good as and as simple to check as any other set of rules would be. I'm not slamming your suggestions, I'm just saying that deciding the validity of a lap will never be a simple as yes or no.

 

[GTP_Plato]

And how is that? All wheels on the track? Furthermore, how do you suggest that it should be enforced? Regardless of which rules you set for when a lap is clean or dirty there will always be a blurry line. These are the rules that has been used for many years now and even though they might lack in places they are as good as and as simple to check as any other set of rules would be. I'm not slamming your suggestions, I'm just saying that deciding the validity of a lap will never be a simple as yes or no.

As I said I am not slamming the rules, it was just a suggestion to make admins life a whole lot easier. I am following the same rules you guys are. It takes a bit of getting used to because I have never been used to rules like this. Two of the time trials I have done in the last few weeks I would have considered dirty in my eyes, but classed as clean going by the WRS rules.

I am not trying to make enemies here, but it seems there are some that just don't like my own view of a dirty lap. As I said I am still following the same rules you guys are 👍

This is the wrong thread for this conversation anyway

 

[Jump_Ace]

The white arrows indicate where the rear of the tyre, not the contact patch, is vertically in line with the red/white rumble strip which is considered track.

At that moment I would consider it clean. However, I would have to see how that rear tire exits the turn. I'm 99.99999% sure it will be a dirty lap in .01 seconds once the tire leaves the rumble strip and is on the green tarmac only (since no part of the tire is on the white line now)....just my thoughts But it would be very tedious to have to replay it over and over and over to get the timing right to verify that it's dirty.

Jerome

 

[EDK]

And how is that? All wheels on the track? Furthermore, how do you suggest that it should be enforced? Regardless of which rules you set for when a lap is clean or dirty there will always be a blurry line. These are the rules that has been used for many years now and even though they might lack in places they are as good as and as simple to check as any other set of rules would be. I'm not slamming your suggestions, I'm just saying that deciding the validity of a lap will never be a simple as yes or no.

I agree completely with this assessment.

Most people who start to talk about "Rules as if it were a real race track" start talking about "More than Half the car" being over a boundary area. How would you ever be able to determine more than half of the car, objectively?

And if you went to 4 tires on, you still would have the same issue as we see here, only with the left side tire, which would be even harder to validate, since the "blurry" area would be under the car.

In the end, I would never submit the run Maz has shown in the picture. I think the rear part of the tire being over the rumble is very subjective, and I think it's clear that the contact portion of the tire is not on the track. I know the rules don't get that specific, but I would have a hard time as an admin calling the lap clean, and it's something the whole admin team would have to discuss and vote on. You never want to have a submission so close that we all have to discuss and vote on it. It only shows that you are running on the ragged edge, and will eventually end up with a DQ.

 

[Synwraith]

Totally agree that this should not be submitted, but I'm not even 100% certain that this discussion will mean that all will review their laps more carefully and think twice about a particularly close submission. This is our first run at this track and these issues are bound to arise. At least you know what to expect, or at least you now know the reaction if you do submit something close to the above.

Discussions relating to this combo and its boundaries, and how a replay will be judged or why we run a particular set of rules for this combo are within an acceptable discussion for this thread.

All the best
Maz

 

[chukabilly]

I think it's important to keep in mind that this a hot-lap competition between many different levels of drivers. Maybe I wouldn't normally use the side of a rumble strip during a race, but I certainly would on the last lap if I thought I needed to. Even this week, I'm sliding the car out farther than I want to because I'm looking for the limit. But that's not the line I'm taking on my first three laps to warm up the tires. The two tire rule, besides physical contact, has proved to be a consistent tool that can adapt to any track.
As for the pictures, I wouldn't submit that lap, but I would probably be within a tire width of where he's at. That's the fastest line through that corner.

 

[DTM]

To break this clean/dirty discussion.(if your not 100% sure if your lap is clean consider it dirty)

That T1 is killing me.

 

[EDK]

Totally agree that this should not be submitted, but I'm not even 100% certain that this discussion will mean that all will review their laps more carefully and think twice about a particularly close submission. This is our first run at this track and these issues are bound to arise. At least you know what to expect, or at least you now know the reaction if you do submit something close to the above.

Discussions relating to this combo and its boundaries, and how a replay will be judged or why we run a particular set of rules for this combo are within an acceptable discussion for this thread.

All the best
Maz

I fully understood the intent of you post, so don't believe that I was suggesting you would submit this run.

My comments were for the benefit of those interested in trying to break down your run and find a way to make it clean.

And to provide my position on the idea that the rules would somehow cause the situation you presented. The rules are not the issue, it's the participants' interpretation and attempted exploitation of the rules.

And I'm not suggesting that ALL participants will attempt to exploit the rules, but we have seen examples in the past that suggest we will have some runs this week that need to be scrutinized this closely.

 

[munch2112]

T1: 36.509
T2: 24.066

Think I'm finally getting somewhere with T1, can see a new line somehow......

 

[Vaxen]

Now that all of that is out of the way I can get somewhat back on track and show you this:

The white arrows indicate where the rear of the tyre, not the contact patch, is vertically in line with the red/white rumble strip which is considered track. Keep in mind also:



It's not as clear cut as you may think.

All the best
Maz

Weighing in with my opinion:

The intent of the "vertically in line with" phrasing of the rule is to cover cases when the car is airborne (as will happen at Eiger or Cape Ring as a matter of course) but still obviously "on track."

Furthermore, when the car is not airborne, the contact patch of the tire is the only part that matters. If the car is on the ground and the 3 of the tires are not in contact with the track, it is my opinion that the car is off track by our rules, and the run would be flagged as dirty.

 

[chukabilly]

I'm with Vaxen. Well said. 👍

By the way, how many laps are guys running your tires before you notice a drop-off? For me, it's been a three lap warm-up, then my best laps are from 5 to 15, and by lap 22 to 25 I begin to see a drop in grip.

 

[munch2112]

T1: 36.503
T2: 24.031

Not much better T2, but .5xx up at T3 👍

 

[2smokes]

I go and throw down a few laps right off and all through the week trying to stay clean and on the track or at least on the line, I'm learning the track not the boundary of it. In my opinion, which even though I'm a rookie Div. 5 guy, I am still intitled to, if going out just to see how far you can go off the track on every corner before even attempting an actual lap doesn't go against the spirit of the game then I'm not sure what does. Maybe I'm wrong but in the short few weeks I've been here that just seems to be what it's all about. I like the rule 'if your not sure its clean, its dirty'

 

[Anghammarad]

Well, at least I have something.

36.224
23.706

 

[DTM]

Saw some better spilts passing but have to settle with this ones

36.429
23.937

 

[ASH32]

Earlier today I went faster than I ever thought I could, but I either ruined the lap, like I did with a 59.7xx lap or it's dirty or too close to submit. I hope I can achieve my potential this week, if I do I'll be well pleased.

36.288
23.771

These splits are from my best clean lap so far, which was set on Lap 1.

 

[Vagabond]

By the way, how many laps are guys running your tires before you notice a drop-off? For me, it's been a three lap warm-up, then my best laps are from 5 to 15, and by lap 22 to 25 I begin to see a drop in grip.

A point worth noting with this combo actually Chuk... in previous weeks, no matter the combo, I have often found the best grip on the first lap when the tyres are still showing as cold. This has been more noticeable with comfort tyres but still a factor with other compounds. This week, however, I'm noticing a marked increase in grip once the tyres are warm...best grip after 3 "warm-up" laps but after that I am not feeling any drop off at all. I just set my best time so far on my latest run on the 12th lap.

Having said that, it may be worth noting that the feel I'm getting from my wheel is not consistent from one session to the next if I have exited and reloaded GT5 in between.

How about that for an unhelpful answer?

OK, new splits anyway. Down 0.1 in T1, down 0.05 in T2 but up 0.4 at the line, making it by far my best T3 thus far. Missed the apex of the left hander in T2 and went too wide on exit - probably lost 0.2 there.

Now just need to find those extra couple of tenths and I'm done.... but still more than happy with my overall time so far.

T1: 36.046
T2: 23.706

 

[jbrinkley0826]

wow, maybe I need to start running more laps instead of restarting every 5 laps....

on your guys warm up laps, are you going hard or just running to warm the tires up? I go full bore from the get go..... maybe I should try a little slower the first few laps.