GTP_WRS Week 20 : Official Results

Discussion in 'WRS Archive' started by JoostBaksteen, Jul 5, 2011.

  1. EDK

    EDK Moderator

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    I was also using a dab of brake for 130R, but was keeping it in 6th. I think it's more about maximum corner speed. My last sector was not the very fastest, but it was competitive. If I was more consistent through T2, I might have taken more risk through the final sector. But I had the T2 I needed on about 1 out of 10 laps, so taking a big risk at 130R was not in the cards.

    I'll be uploading my replay tonight, so you will have that to review. Again, not the fastest on the board, but it will show you where 2.8 seconds went.

    Feel free to post your replay, and I can give you a writeup that should help you the next time we come to Suzuka.

    Always feel free to ask questions about parts of the track you are unsure of during the week, I think you'll find a lot of people are willing to offer suggestions and their approach.
     
  2. WRP001

    WRP001 Moderator

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    GTP_teecro [​IMG]

    Nice lap... you beat me on the hairpin pretty good. I slowed down a bit too much and you maintained a bit more and very steady speed through that turn.

    You were really hot entering 1st curve and Degner especially... Degner appeared to be about the only corner I got out of earlier/with more speed. Not sure how you kept it on the track with that fast entry into 1, but nice job... I lost it every time I went too hot there.

    According to data logger you also touched brakes on 130R and even went down the 5th. I guess some of these guys managed that corner with just a slight lift off.
     
  3. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect Premium

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    Congrats to all division winners, podiums and those who finished this "devil" week :cheers:

    Special word to Rutter :bowdown:, looking foward to see you against the best.

    My mates on D2, speciallly Philip and Kevin, just :cool:

    Carlos, that T3 killed us :scared:, just hoping that ash returns to continue our little duel that´s going on for this last weeks :sly:

    Thanks to Kevin and Chris for the gears and the tune.

    Not a week for me to remember, but see this always as a way to learn something :tup:
     
  4. WRP001

    WRP001 Moderator

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    GTP_MilleRSVR [​IMG]

    Clean lap. Close on the entry into one, but you kept it clean through that entire drift :sly:

    I noticed a couple things. I'm not an advanced drive so take this with a grain of salt -- maybe the better drivers here can back this up or refute.

    Up the S-curves you can take a line without any breaking (in 4th gear the entire time) -- since it's up hill gravity will give you a nice controlled deceleration when you are off the throttle.

    This may be as much a question to better drivers than me as a comment, but... Your braking zones were consistently longer and more "mild" than mine... meaning quite a bit less than 100% brake (~50-70%). Assuming you are braking in a straight line and you can maintain control of the car I think a shorter/stronger break zone with a quicker return to gas would be faster. Example: Here's a digital pic of the data logger chart from our laps going into Degner curve. Yours on the top with the lower more "controlled" braking zone and mine with the shorter "heavier" braking.

    [​IMG]

    So better drivers than me... any suggestions for either of us? Maybe something between my short "foot stomp" and MillRSVR's lighter braking?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  5. noshog

    noshog

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    Congrats to all division winners and podiums :tup:
    I have had another dose of the flu, so just didn't have the strength or concentration to attack Suzuka :grumpy:
    :cheers: to all
     
  6. Ealirendur

    Ealirendur Premium

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    Wake up, get to work - replays I can't look at for hours. Curses!

    Dude, your T3 was epic - the best submitted in Div 3, I think. Congrats, and to the blistering teecro and jbrinkley, and podiums elsewhere!

    The NTSC/PAL divide is painfully pernicious. WRP, I'd be happy to join you in analysis badinage - maybe I can help with PAL reviews you might be after? Although my video options are dodgy at best....

    I've noted (at least on the DS3) that I seem to get better braking results with progressive application, trying to feel the ABS/lock kicking in. I also oddly saw one or two decent T1s (for me - 1'01.0x) with high aggression and braking dabs, but that may have been an AT artifact. I'm very curious to see technique into turn one, since that seemed both mysterious and critical.

    ....

    "Degner!" *argh* *splat*.
     
  7. WRP001

    WRP001 Moderator

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    I'll take you up on that... here's my replay... Don't be afraid to scrutinize this in public (in this thread) as I'm sure other's could learn from my mistakes too :scared: And anyone else who feels like abusing my lap feel free.

    2.8 second difference... there should be some pretty glaring mistakes there to see :dunce:
     

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  8. jbrinkley0826

    jbrinkley0826

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    Here's my replay.
     

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  9. MilleRSVR

    MilleRSVR Premium

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    Thanks for reviewing. This combo had me a bit leery of off throttle oversteer, so I was trying to be smooth, maybe too much.

    That was a close call at turn 1, wasn't trying to cut it that close, just managed to save it!!:scared:
     
  10. pyxen

    pyxen

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    Replay attached! Too bad my handicap went up this week.. :(

    Guess it'll take a little longer to reach D4 Gold - especially since I'm not putting tons of time into the WRS anymore :(
     

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  11. EDK

    EDK Moderator

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    Congrats to all the podiums and top times this week. Well done by Rutter for being the only one to get into the 15's, and some nice times by wayna and CICO.

    The top drivers in D2 and D3 performed in the next division up. :tup:

    I was hoping to find my first podium of GT5, but alas, it wasn't meant to be. Maybe another week........

    Anyhow, my NTSC replay is attached. For the benefit of some of the questions that have come up in the thread, I'll give a brief writeup of what I was trying to do when posting with information on the other replays checked.

    For now, will get it posted in case someone is chomping at the bit to upload it. :dopey:

    EDIT:

    OK, will start here with what I was trying to do on my own lap.

    Diagram for those who might need it, since I will refer to the type of apex I was trying to use in some areas.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Turn 1, handle as an early apex, meaning get the car pointed early, allowing you to carry in more of that speed you built up on the main straight. It's a high speed, double apex turn, so you should carry to the back, downshift to 3rd, and take a more conventional apex line through the second half of the turn. I use very light braking and mostly use the gears to slow the car, with another dab of brake for the second half before exit. Back up to 4th, and I use that all the way until the final right S turn. Just throttle lift and needed steering input to control speed and keep the car pointed. A little tail wag is OK, but work to be smooth.

    For that last right S, I like 3rd in this turn as opposed to using any brakes to slow the car. It's really about setting up for the left Exit of the esses, or Dunlop curve. The key is to keep a tight line in that right hander and get the car all the way to the right smoothly, and get on as much of the power as you can as soon as possible. Once you get the car around and out to the right, lift as needed to apex Dunlop, but don't touch the left inside rumble, then hammer down. I've worked hard at getting this right, but it's still my weakest spot on the track as compared to the D1 guys, so they should feel free to weigh in. On around the corner and up to 5th on the approach to Degner.

    For Degner 1, in this car, I just gave a dab of brake while downshifting to 4th, and worked to point the middle of the car at the apex rumble. Main thing is to be smooth in getting power back down so you don't spin. Brake earlier than you think you need to for Degner 2, down to 3rd, heavier braking than Degner 1 for the slower corner, again being careful of that rumble on exit.

    Past T1 and up to 5th on the way to the hairpin.

    Hairpin is one of 2 corners that I use the full brake threshold. Brake as the rumble on the right hand side ends, with the car as far right as possible, working to hold that straight line under braking. Work to turn in as you release the brake, hopefully find the apex, coast it a bit, then hammer out. I missed the apex of the hairpin on this lap, costing me probably 0.1-0.150. Had I gotten the car pointed and into the apex, I could have put power down sooner, always a priority when executing a turn before a long section of full throttle. Up to 6th on the way to spoon.

    Spoon curve is almost like a left handed turn 1. It's a double apex turn, and you need to enter with speed. The key for me on this combo was to apply medium brakes in a straight line before turning in, come down to 4th, and get back on the power on the way toward the back rumble. I missed the back rumble on this run, but I still got back off the power and down to 3rd soon enough to make the critical second apex and hammer down on the throttle for the run up the back straight on the way to T2.

    130R - I chose to dab the brakes between the 2 marker signs on the right after the T2 line, keep it in 6th, and apex in to rumble and back out. Those pictures of my spin from earlier in the week were from more of a kamikaze run through there. Tune might be part of that. You can set a tune that works for you in some parts of the track and not in others, that's always a compromise. My line is quite good, just know there are some that would say to only lift there, never brake. They would probably be faster, but possibly less consistent.

    OK, exit 130R, get back to the far left to set up for Casio Triangle, the other slow speed corner and the second one I use Full threshold braking for. I use second to get in, aggressively apex with left 2 wheels on red and white rumble, lift and up to 3rd to aid turn in and allow for earlier full throttle application on exit. Some may not like the idea of this, but with my tune, on an ideal run, I would be shifting before the car was settled back out of the turn, not a great spot to be in at 10,000 RPM's in an MR.

    As I write up these other runs, I'll just try to mention the spots where you might have differed from my theory, to help you understand where I might have taken a different approach.

    2'21.566---GTP_pyxen [​IMG]


    I think overall you displayed good car control. I think with more practice, you can be more aggressive in some areas to make you faster, but working on line is going to do more for your time than aggression right now.

    Starting with turn 1, you should look to carry much more speed into the corner. Handle it as an early apex, which allows you to get the car turned before you begin braking, and just dab the brakes as you gear down to slow the car. Carry all the way to the back, and take the second half as a second apex. You should be able to carry more speed there as well.

    You used the brakes some through the esses. You should be able to use throttle input to keep the car pointed and stay in 4th all the way through until the last right S turn before Dunlop. For that last right, get the car all the way out, give up the optimum line in that turn, to set up for faster exit from Dunlop, the last left of the esses.

    Degner 1 was good, maybe a little timid. Degner 2, brake sooner so you can hit in inside apex and get back on the throttle sooner for what's a much longer straight section than the 1 between the 2 halves of Degner.

    Line through hairpin was good, but you did not need 1st. that cost you some time.

    Spoon, you could have held 4th on the way in, and this is another one where looking at it as 2 turns will help you be faster. Carry more in, and get on power sooner for exit.

    Holding 6th would have helped with carrying speed in 130R.



    2'18.310---GTP_JBRINKLEY [​IMG]

    I think overall a really nice run and a great D3 win. It's clear you know the line around this track, and you look to be on your way up the ranks. :tup: A few tips below, just to help you scrub some tenths.

    Less aggressive on the brakes going into turn 1 would have helped you carry more speed.

    4th through most of the esses would have done the same for you.

    At Dunlop, in my experience, missing that rumble on the left helps you hold the right side of the track better on exit, helping you carry more speed.

    Degner 2, brake sooner and use 3rd to carry more momentum.

    Really nice run through hairpin!

    Final thought would be to try that upshift to 3rd for the second half of Casio. You can mash the throttle straight away and you don't lose the time shifting, both of which make up for the lower RPM's you are carrying at the start of it.

    GTP_WRP001

    The replay you uploaded is a 2:19.194. Looks like you turned in a 2:19.791, but that was the prior best lap shown on the screen during the replay. The actual laptime shows in replay theater before you load the lap. So I already found you 0.6. ;)

    Overall, you have good car control, good steering and throttle input, everything looks smooth.

    I would say for this combo, your braking technique was much too aggressive and cost you quite a lot of time. Mainly because it caused you to slow to a lower speed than needed for many corners.

    For example, in Turn 1 , your lowest speed is 94, then for the second half, or turn 2, is 67. You matched me in the second half, but I progressively and gradually come down to that speed, so carrying more all the way to that point. You can see it in the data logger as well. This shows up in several of the turns, the highest speed ones in particular. I think that's the major lesson for you to learn. Using different braking techniques for the different types of turns to maximize momentum and overall track speed.

    Beyond that -

    Your line in Dunlop costs you quite a bit in T1. Try setting up out to the right as I describe, and as my replay shows, to some degree. :dopey:

    For Spoon curve, you did not need 3rd on the way in, then on the way out, you brake/lift too late to make the second apex, causing you get on the power late.

    Overall, very good, and I hope these tips help. :tup:

    Hope that helps everyone. Sorry for the mega-post.

    :cheers:
    Kevin
     

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    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
  12. Carlos Fandango

    Carlos Fandango Premium

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    Quality post Kev - thank you :tup:
     
  13. Gravitron

    Gravitron Moderator

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    NTSC replay, 022 suffix.

    Sorry WRP001, I guess I lied a little. I'm pretty sure I had at least *a few* trips through 130R with no braking, but this so-called epic T3 did have some brake-dabbing in it. :/

    And WOW, Kevin, thanks for the tome. :tup:


    :gtplanet:
     

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  14. WRP001

    WRP001 Moderator

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    Kevin,

    Amazing post. :bowdown: This post alone made my labors on the combo well worth it. Really love your analysis of your own lap overlaid with what we did/didn't do on the lap. Even after a week on the combo there were still a few spots that were a mystery and when I got faster splits I wasn't always sure why -- your comments make a lot of sense. I've got to make the time now to get that BEC back on the road and retry this a few time with your approach in mind.

    Stupid of me submitting my 2nd best lap time (i see both on my notebook now that you point that out and just read the wrong line)... At least that 0.6 didn't cost me a podium (I would have ended up 4th). Also explains why my T3 looked so bad relative to my splits (which I submitted from the correct 2'19.194 lap). Silly to work so hard to drop 0.6 and then space out on the submission. I'll be more careful next time. :dunce:

    Thanks again.
     
  15. Rutter200_VR46

    Rutter200_VR46 Premium

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    My replay is on the 1st page if anyone gets a chance.

    Nice write up Kevin. I'm going to give that a another read at work during tea break of course.:)
     
  16. Ealirendur

    Ealirendur Premium

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    Just got home -

    GTP_Cico [​IMG] - correct, super smooth. Looked like you could have run those all day - as evidenced by dropping .004 off your previous best :tup:

    GTP_Rutter200 [​IMG] - correct, awesome. Got a tiny bit out of shape after Degner 2? :sly: Super.

    Definitely both brake dabs at 130R. I might add more notes if I get time before Speedy Shows All. One or two of the lines made me think "Why didn't I think of that", and I know I was down 5-10kph on the 130R turn speed alone, before Data Logger shows me elsewhere.

    Thanks hugely to Kev for that write-up. Amazingly helpful, and the spirit in which it is written blows me away. The turn one analysis matched what I began to suspect, and then saw in both the D1 replays, even.

    Also, congrats to WRP for being, y'know, modest ;-)
     
  17. Rutter200_VR46

    Rutter200_VR46 Premium

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    Thanks for checking Ealirendur! Much appreciated.

    :cheers:
     
  18. DDiamond

    DDiamond Premium

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    Congrats to all division winners and podiums. Looked as though all had fun.

    I only had one less-than-gratifying hour on the combo before my cat destroyed my pedal wire, which I have finally been able to re-wire. However, there's another cat-short in the wire going from the shifter to the wheel, which I can't find, that causes intermittent havoc during a run....so I may not be submitting this week either.
    :grumpy:
     
  19. Speedy6543

    Speedy6543 Moderator

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    Here we go...I finished the vid on the top 4 spots.
    Amazing how different everybody's gearbox was!!
    Enjoy ;)

     
  20. EDK

    EDK Moderator

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    Thanks, guys. Makes the time invested worthwhile. :D

    Notes for my lap now that I've seen Rutter's.


    Turn 1, go faster. Turn 2, go faster. Turn 3, go faster. :sly:

    In all seriousness, I feel better now about my 130R. His bottom speed of 199 kph is 122 MPH. My bottom speed was 119 MPH. Certainly, I gave some up to him, but not embarrassingly so.

    He used 4th from turn 1 all the way until the exit of Dunlop, whereas I used 3rd for the second part of turn 1 and for the last right S curve. If you can manage the car and do that, you can carry more speed. Things like that tend to be where talent comes in for me. :dopey:

    He also holds 5th for Degner 1, and just comes down to 4th for Degner 2.

    His line execution is what I wanted to do in every turn, but knowing what to do and actually doing it are 2 different things. With his lines at Dunlop, Hairpin, and Spoon, I probably could have challenged for D2 win. Instead, my small mistakes left me where I am, but still happy for the effort.

    Great laps by all of the top 4, and congrats again. :cheers:

    Oh, and thanks to Speedy for putting that up. :)
     
  21. Speedy6543

    Speedy6543 Moderator

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    Thanks EDK
    Talk about constructive feedback in your posts :tup:
     
  22. ASH32

    ASH32

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    Even though I didn't take part this week, I guess I can still say, congratulations to all the winners and everyone who earned a podium place. Good job guys.:cheers:
     
  23. jbrinkley0826

    jbrinkley0826

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    Thanks EDK, that post definetely helps... and I knew I lost alot of time in the esses, I could always be ahead .5 at T1 but never could maintain that lead. Anyway, thanks for the post.... always helps hearing from others...

    JB
     
  24. EDK

    EDK Moderator

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    BTW, I know it would be easy to miss in the massiveness of my post, but my replay was required this week. So if one of you NTSC guys wants to give it the Green Flag, it's on post # 41. :)
     
  25. teecro

    teecro

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    Will do in about 10 mins. :tup:
     
  26. jbrinkley0826

    jbrinkley0826

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    I'll do it when I get home from work if its not done... I'll give you some pointers too.... lol j/k.
     
  27. Hydro

    Hydro Staff Emeritus

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    Here's my replay.
    Gonna have a look at some of the others (esp EDK - I used his setup afterall) to learn how to drive :idea:
    My shoulders are sore from this event.
     

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  28. Hydro

    Hydro Staff Emeritus

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    Good clean lap.
    GTP_EDK :gtpflag: I don't know how to (or if i even can) give you a green flag, so you get a GTP flag from me.:tup:

    [GTP_EDK [​IMG]]
    Thanks for the lesson too.

    Hydro
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
  29. WRP001

    WRP001 Moderator

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    For the green flag, quote one of the other guys green flags and copy/paste the IMG tag section into your post.

    PS> I'm verifying Gravitron's lap now... post in a few mins.
     
  30. teecro

    teecro

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    :@: WRP001 - Thanks for the review.:tup: The first corner I spent a lot of time on because that was one of the few that I just was never satisfied with in any of my runs. There were a couple others as well but after spending so much time on this combo I just wanted it to end.:lol: It always seemed I could never run all 3 sectors cleanly or acceptably in the same lap, that added a bunch of frustration. I believe it was the day right before it ended I decided to have one more go and managed to beat my best previous time and I said, that's it, I'm done!:lol:

    -----

    GTP_EDK [​IMG] - Good clean lap. Watching your replay makes the wait for my G27 even worse.:lol:

    GTP_WRP001 - As EDK had said the replay to your lap was a faster time than the one you had submitted. [Replay = 2'19.194---Submitted = 2'19.791] It is a clean lap and didn't break any of the driving rules, but since the times don't match I'm not sure what I should put.

    GTP_Gravitron [​IMG] - Good clean lap.

    GTP_Hydro [​IMG] - Good clean lap. Only recommendation I have is don't be afraid to use less brakes and more lift-off on the throttle.