GTS Should seriously consider a series that costs at least $100 per season for drivers

[Trux]

I’ve often wondered why developers aiming towards simulation don’t use the in game currency to penalise poor driving and incidents.
At the start of the season everyone that wants to enter a series pays a fee from the in game currency. This can be large enough cover both prize money and damage insurance.

If you wreck your car you have to pay for the damage. Same with tyres. (Could make for interesting strategies through the season as per real world. All of this is paid for by using the ingame currency.

If you’re caught up in a wreck caused by another driver the insurance pays the damage.
If you caused the incident, up goes your insurance contributions. Race clean all season and your insurance contribution drops.
Obviously the penalty/blame system would need some tweaking but a clear definition could be implemented by FIA as per real world and coded in so everyone is clearly aware of the system in use.
Wrecking would have real meaning as per the real world. Especially if PD keep the system of making credits hard to come by.

Maybe I’m talking plop but this or something similar could be implemented to a mode of the game for those that are serious about the competition and want a deep and rich racing experience.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I’ve often wondered why developers aiming towards simulation don’t use the in game currency to penalise poor driving and incidents.
At the start of the season everyone that wants to enter a series pays a fee from the in game currency. This can be large enough cover both prize money and damage insurance.

If you wreck your car you have to pay for the damage. Same with tyres. (Could make for interesting strategies through the season as per real world. All of this is paid for by using the ingame currency.

If you’re caught up in a wreck caused by another driver the insurance pays the damage.
If you caused the incident, up goes your insurance contributions. Race clean all season and your insurance contribution drops.
Obviously the penalty/blame system would need some tweaking but a clear definition could be implemented by FIA as per real world and coded in so everyone is clearly aware of the system in use.
Wrecking would have real meaning as per the real world. Especially if PD keep the system of making credits hard to come by.

Maybe I’m talking plop but this or something similar could be implemented to a mode of the game for those that are serious about the competition and want a deep and rich racing experience.

That's what the clean race bonus does though.

 

[Alltrac185]

And imagine being an honest driver who paid 100 dollars to be in this season and then you, Mr. Troll Driver, came along and ruined it.

Well there could be a cap on limit of times you can make contact before your disqualified for the season. So he hits a car 10 times, had to pay $5 for the 10 collisions and he's out the rest of the year and his entry fee is nonrefundable.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

This happens. Except this happens for offenses that are actually serious, like game cheats or exploits. Also, you can report a player for disrupting the race and therefore, (presumably) anyone who is a persistent troll with multiple reports will eventually get the boot.

No one should ever get booted for losing their temper. Everyone loses their temper from to time. Never mind making a mistake.

Again, as I said, most of the complaining, if not all of it, comes from DR B on down. That these players will have contact more than expected is normal.

Do you know what it's like to try and drive through a pack of D, C, and low B drivers as an A driver or higher? It's awful. They brake WAAAAAAAAY to early, or WAY too late. They are miles away from the apex. It doesn't seem like any of them check their mirrors or radar. They are completely unpredictable. It's like following an accident about to happen. If PD were to implement the strictness that many of you are calling for, most of you would be the ones that fall afoul of that strictness.

Good bye $100

You do realize that DR.B and down represent 98.6% of the user base (of those having completed at least 5 sport mode races)

Of course it's more rare A and A+ drivers come into contact, you hardly every see a group of them together! And when they do, I see just as many red dots and red ratings at the top as at the bottom...

I've seen DR.D racers with better race craft than some A+ drivers. But of course statistics shows that most bad drivers are DR.B or lower. If PD would implements that illusive strictness, the ones with good race craft would actually have a chance to get better instead of purely racing the avoidance game.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

Do you know what it's like to try and drive through a pack of D, C, and low B drivers as an A driver or higher? It's awful. They brake WAAAAAAAAY to early, or WAY too late. They are miles away from the apex. It doesn't seem like any of them check their mirrors or radar. They are completely unpredictable.

That's quite a statement you're making.

 

[D-Max]

It's just adding to the realism of motorsport simulation, by making it prohibitively expensive to enter.

The real gentleman driver simulator

 

[Crazy Taylor]

The real gentleman driver simulator

The real wallet siphoning simulator.

 

[fastone371]

This happens. Except this happens for offenses that are actually serious, like game cheats or exploits. Also, you can report a player for disrupting the race and therefore, (presumably) anyone who is a persistent troll with multiple reports will eventually get the boot.

No one should ever get booted for losing their temper. Everyone loses their temper from to time. Never mind making a mistake.

Again, as I said, most of the complaining, if not all of it, comes from DR B on down. That these players will have contact more than expected is normal.

Do you know what it's like to try and drive through a pack of D, C, and low B drivers as an A driver or higher? It's awful. They brake WAAAAAAAAY to early, or WAY too late. They are miles away from the apex. It doesn't seem like any of them check their mirrors or radar. They are completely unpredictable. It's like following an accident about to happen. If PD were to implement the strictness that many of you are calling for, most of you would be the ones that fall afoul of that strictness.

Good bye $100

Since the overwhelming majority of sport mode racers are DR B I would expect they have the highest percentage of complaints. A proper A+ driver probably shouldn't find themselves racing amongst DR B drivers very often because the one that I occasionally see during races starts at the front and runs away as they should. As a DR B driver I would expect that I brake a little earlier than a DR A+, that's exactly why they are an A+ and I'm working my way towards an A. As far as speed I'm very close on speed with many DR A drivers and usually qualify amongst them, I just dont race as aggressively as many others do. I will sit and follow someone if I am only .5 seconds per lap faster which over an entire lap means you are basically faster no where which means you don't have the speed to pass anyhow unless you are willing to force the issue and potentially run someone off the track. So it's pretty easy for me to say that I find most DR A drivers are an "accident waiting to happen". Maybe your perspective depends on who you find yourself racing against. Lastly maybe if more DR A+ drivers were not so concerned with their precious DR & SR there would be more than 1 racing in each lobby every day and the high DR drivers wouldn't find themselves racing the lowly DR Bs.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You do realize that DR.B and down represent 98.6% of the user base (of those having completed at least 5 sport mode races)

Of course it's more rare A and A+ drivers come into contact, you hardly every see a group of them together! And when they do, I see just as many red dots and red ratings at the top as at the bottom...

I've seen DR.D racers with better race craft than some A+ drivers. But of course statistics shows that most bad drivers are DR.B or lower. If PD would implements that illusive strictness, the ones with good race craft would actually have a chance to get better instead of purely racing the avoidance game.

That's quite a statement you're making.

Sometimes tough love is needed. Pointless feature to clean up "dirty" drivers are coming from the those same "dirty" drivers, none of whom are actually dirty, but just bad at what they are doing.

Scroll up to my post about the "inter idiots" Do you know why those groups are separated? Safety.

If you put a slow rider on a track with a fast rider, that slow rider will cause an accident. The pro rider will plow into their rear end, or make a pass in a place where the slow rider won't be expecting it, etc. Someone can get killed, so the groups are separated.

THAT THERE is what is being experienced most of the time. Different skill levels, where each player is at a vastly different level of pace from corner to corner. Some corners are being taken at DR A+ pace, then the same player takes a corner at DR E slow. Out of the 10-20 drivers out there , 10-20 of them have a completely different pace from corner to corner. Pro racers often talk about seeing where they, themselves, are fast and where their competitors are fast. That's normal.

The important point being that the most is gained from focusing on your own pace rather than hoping someone changes a penalty system that people have no control over. If people took the time they spend to come here and complain, or suggest features, and instead applied that time to lapping and improving their pace, most would find that their problems would begin to dissolve.



Video time. This is a video showing that SKILL conquers all. Corentin Perolari is a pro rider in the World Super Sport Class. He's riding a bike that has about 140hp. The other riders on track are amateurs (some) riding 200hp street and track bikes, and they are at Magny Cours! They are still fast riders!! This is the fast group! Near the end, at 1:53, he passes a guy who is dragging his elbow FFS!!!



Take the time to make yourself better. That's going to make the most difference. $100 a year won't.

...Lastly maybe if more DR A+ drivers were not so concerned with their precious DR & SR there would be more than 1 racing in each lobby every day and the high DR drivers wouldn't find themselves racing the lowly DR Bs.

Or maybe it has nothing to do with a desire to maintain DR and they have no control over matchmaking.

I race when I can, usually when I take breaks from work during the day, or when I have evenings to myself. I don't get to pick and choose where I end up. No one does.

During the day, when there are less people playing, the rooms vary wildly. In the evening, when more people are playing, it's not all that uncommon for me to be in a room where the DR levels are DR A or higher.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

What sort of infrastructure would you need to run a paid race via GT Sport lobbies? I'm surprised this isn't common given the availability of payment apps like Venmo.

 

[Voodoovaj]

What sort of infrastructure would you need to run a paid race via GT Sport lobbies? I'm surprised this isn't common given the availability of payment apps like Venmo.

Not much.

Change DR S to a paid ranking rather than something that you apply for, then have races that require DR S to participate.

See, people are assuming that "paid" will mean "good". All it will mean is paid. if some player sucks, but paid $100 to play, they've paid for the right to be in the race regardless of their skill level. Then, try explaining to someone that they will lose their $100 if they upset someone.

You're better off making a dozen friends and running BoP lobbies by invite only.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Not much.

Change DR S to a paid ranking rather than something that you apply for, then have races that require DR S to participate.

See, people are assuming that "paid" will mean "good". All it will mean is paid. if some player sucks, but paid $100 to play, they've paid for the right to be in the race regardless of their skill level. Then, try explaining to someone that they will lose their $100 if they upset someone.

You're better off making a dozen friends and running BoP lobbies by invite only.

Oh, I mean Paid as in simply getting paid. I'm surprised I don't see rumors of underground paid tournaments where money is pooled and paid out to winners. Probably completely illegal but so are a lot of things that people use Venmo for.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Oh, I mean Paid as in simply getting paid. I'm surprised I don't see rumors of underground paid tournaments where money is pooled and paid out to winners. Probably completely illegal but so are a lot of things that people use Venmo for.

Where do I sign up???

 

[Groundfish]

Eh. I wouldn’t do it unless there was prize money.
I’m 500 dr below A and I’ve never had the non issue of having trouble with low b or c or d drivers.
They are five to ten seconds behind me first lap if they are even seen by me or even on the grid. I had a couple last night starting last-never saw them.
Plus, A dr can be achieved by milking a given combo-doesn’t mean the A travels.
That’s why I don’t care about dr and play for sr. I could milk Nurb GP more races and be A but I don’t do race after race after race in a sitting. I enjoy 1-2.
From what I see the system works pretty well. It’s not perfect but nothing is.
What I see online many times is people complaining that others cause their rating issues. Take responsibility for your rating!
There’s many players who are basically always sr 99. That’s because they don’t drive like morons or expect an algorithm to perfectly find fault. Just don’t be an idiot!

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Where do I sign up???

I don't know, but so far the backseat criminal part of my brain is wondering about it. If you had a trusted figure who could guarantee the prize pool while also being trusted to hold all entry fees in escrow, they could then marshal, schedule, and run rooms to determine who the winner is. There's clearly an element of faith required by the participants to give their money to a stranger and that stranger would probably want some level of anonymity, for legal reasons.

I feel like there should be an app for this.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I don't know, but so far the backseat criminal part of my brain is wondering about it. If you had a trusted figure who could guarantee the prize pool while also being trusted to hold all entry fees in escrow, they could then marshal, schedule, and run rooms to determine who the winner is. There's clearly an element of faith required by the participants to give their money to a stranger and that stranger would probably want some level of anonymity, for legal reasons.

I feel like there should be an app for this.

You lost me at Marshall.

I would just run lobbies, turn on penalties, and let the chips fall where they may.


Pfffft, criminal. I thought you lived in the "land of the free". Run it out of Canada. No one would care. It's likely never going to be a big enough pool of money for Canada Revenue to care about.

 

[splitwindow]

The real wallet siphoning simulator.

The real insurance claim simulator?

 

[TonyJZX]

This is what I gather from the GT experience since GT5.

Gran Turismo at best, does not make much money... at best it breaks even. Its the premiere driving software to drive console sales because every console needs a driving piece of software.

Remember GT Sport's de facto slogan... 'racing is for everyone'.

I find things is a bit ironic because simulators try to be ever more complex and realistic with shiny buttons and features and yet... they want to capture more casuals and tie in more sales with more consoles.

So I dont feel like any tactic designed for a more exclusive service has any traction for a 'more than mainstream' title.

GT Sport and Forza are that... that arent trying to get normal sales, they want to be that one title that every console owner has even those people who are not fans of cars or motorsport.

 

[Majorwolf72]

And what is your current Dr and Sr rating? The most vehement complaints seem to come from DR B and down so I am curious.

DR ranking already tells you all you need to know.

There are dirty and just „bad“ drivers in all DR rankings. Just look at one of the FIA World finalists: He kicks 2 to 3 people off the track in almost every race he does. Yeah he‘s fast as hell, an aliens‘ alien, but FAR from being a clean racer.

So, no, being clean has not everything to do with your raw driving skills. The decision to maybe go defensive in a given situation instead of taking a wild chance is independent from DR. You could argue with SR, then again it’s way too easy to get and maintain 99.

Yup, iracing is the solution, at least it is more fair there as the potential consequences are real.

 

[Voodoovaj]

There are dirty and just „bad“ drivers in all DR rankings. Just look at one FIA World finalist: He kicks 2 to 3 people off the track in almost every race he does. Yeah he‘s fast as hell, an aliens‘ alien, but FAR from being a clean racer.

So, no, being clean has not everything to do with your raw driving skills. The decision to maybe go defensive in a given situation instead of taking a wild chance is independent from DR. You could argue with SR, then again it’s way too easy to get and maintain 99.

Yup, iracing is the solution, at least it is more fair there as the potential consequences are real.

Again, why do people come to GT forums and tout other games? Are you simply lonely over at those other forums? Does the sound of crickets drive you mad?

Great article about iracing here. https://simracingobserver.com/iracing-week-13-write-part-1-money-issue/

You're saying a $1500 solution is the solution? The solution to what exactly?

I have no problem standing FIRM on the issue landing squarely on the shoulders of drivers in the lower ranking being their own worst enemies. We've all found ourselves running afoul of the penalty system and busted down to a DR C or B and an SR B or A. It's a cesspool of driving. People say that A+ drivers are protective of their ranking, but it's with good reason. We get matched with better players!!

I have never, not one time, in over a year now, seen a "clean driving" introduction from a A or A+ player. It's always a B, C, or D player.

So, as always, the "solution" to bad drivers is actually to no longer be one yourself.

 

[K3Tuning]

Adding in a paid league seems like a good idea.

Given the game has everything it has now, sport more included. They ADD in a Sport Mode Plus for a fee. Nobody loses out, they can do everything as they do now, but if they want to go in Sport Mode Plus a monthly or yearly access fee subject to revoke if one is abusive driving.

The problem is this is an already paid for game. I can play my payed for game however I like. If I enjoy ruining the game for others going online and abusing & penalties all that garbage laughing my ads off nobody can tell me I'm playing wrong. I get my penalties and its all my porogative.

Well some might appreciate a venue in GTS where that is not the case. You pay for access and that access can be denied if you don't play nice.

 

[fastone371]

Again, why do people come to GT forums and tout other games? Are you simply lonely over at those other forums? Does the sound of crickets drive you mad?

Great article about iracing here. https://simracingobserver.com/iracing-week-13-write-part-1-money-issue/

You're saying a $1500 solution is the solution? The solution to what exactly?

I have no problem standing FIRM on the issue landing squarely on the shoulders of drivers in the lower ranking being their own worst enemies. We've all found ourselves running afoul of the penalty system and busted down to a DR C or B and an SR B or A. It's a cesspool of driving. People say that A+ drivers are protective of their ranking, but it's with good reason. We get matched with better players!!

I have never, not one time, in over a year now, seen a "clean driving" introduction from a A or A+ player. It's always a B, C, or D player.

So, as always, the "solution" to bad drivers is actually to no longer be one yourself.

So your DR resets were solely because of you and other drivers simply had no affect whatsoever??

 

[Majorwolf72]

Again, why do people come to GT forums and tout other games? Are you simply lonely over at those other forums? Does the sound of crickets drive you mad?

Great article about iracing here. https://simracingobserver.com/iracing-week-13-write-part-1-money-issue/

You're saying a $1500 solution is the solution? The solution to what exactly?

„The King is naked...“

You just revealed you have NO CLUE about iracing by repeating the senseless „1500$“ nonsense of someone else who has no clue...

First of, you won’t spend more than about 300$ in you first year, or you are doing something wrong. Or you are a complete idiot who „wants to have it all“ for the sake of having it all. Even then you only land at about 900$.

I play A LOT more GT Sport than iracing. But enough to be not, well, naked.

Good for you that you are an A+ player. I‘m friends with some of the FIA European finalists, so alien performance and alien thinking is nothing I‘m not used to when it comes to GT Sport. Naturally, these guys on the very top complain if less able drivers get in their way. But never have I heard them looking down on them! In fact, every now and then one of them gives me a privat lesson, alien to B driver. Just because they DO remember how it was in the trenches.

YES, there are bad drivers out there. YES, chances are that getting better leads to cleaner driving. And to see the splinter in your own eye rather than in the other drivers‘.

Still, thinking about a penalty system that is an actual deterrent against horrible driving is a valid point. And also the notion, that GT Sport has NOTHING in that way. And at least one other sim has.

 

[Mr616]

It's so ridiculous that your Dr goes down for things out of your control, and when there is access for everyone, you get every type of player. I'm 15th for Renault in the manufacturer series and I won't enter another race. There needs to be penalties that actually affect the player for violating. League racing is clean and I enjoy it but it's not sanctioned or benefits your ranking. It they started a series that requires a credit card number and had a yearly fee, plus say 50 cent charges for contact with another driver I would sign up right now. And the money they made would help them finance updates and more content.

That's not a solution to anything imo. It will just create more issues with bad penalties charging those who were not in the wrong.

Plus, I bet there'd be more threads here complaining of 6 car grids after paying money to race. GTS is not the game, or the platform to bring this idea in. Iracing would be more your game (and just for the record, people still complain about that penalty system and bad drivers). The grass is not always greener. In fact it rarely ever is.

 

[Voodoovaj]

„The King is naked...“

You just revealed you have NO CLUE about iracing by repeating the senseless „1500$“ nonsense of someone else who has no clue...

First of, you won’t spend more than about 300$ in you first year, or you are doing something wrong. Or you are a complete idiot who „wants to have it all“ for the sake of having it all. Even then you only land at about 900$.

Oh, so sorry, $300-$900 instead of $1500.

I am SOOO WAAAY off base

I will direct your attention to this on point post by @Mr616

That's not a solution to anything imo. It will just create more issues with bad penalties charging those who were not in the wrong.

Plus, I bet there'd be more threads here complaining of 6 car grids after paying money to race. GTS is not the game, or the platform to bring this idea in. Iracing would be more your game (and just for the record, people still complain about that penalty system and bad drivers). The grass is not always greener. In fact it rarely ever is.

So, @Majorwolf72 you can throw money at iRacing and end up in the same boat, because that's racing.

Story time, September 2017 was my last track day. I had intended to give it up, and I had planned on it being my last day.

I was two sessions in when an intermediate rider got too close to me, panicked, and didn't grab his brake lever in time (his story). He plowed into my rear end. Luckily, my bike wasn't damaged much at all (still cost me over $1000 to fix it), and my $500 helmet was toast, and I went to the hospital with a slight concussion and a bruise from my armpit to my thigh. His bike was all twisted but I have no idea what his damage bill was.

So, let's tally the monetary risk (I'll round for ease). Approximately $18000 (my bike) + Approximately $8000 (other bike) + Approximately $1000 (helmets) $600 (cost of track day for two)

So, the momentary risk is approximately $27000+ (give or take) plus the real risk of injury or even death.

If this real life, significant cost and risk of life and limb, didn't prevent a bad event from occurring, how can spending more on a virtual game prevent bad things from a happening?

How silly of me though, "serious" racers never run into this problem. They NEVER have incidents of over aggressive driving. Never, never, never happens

 

[Darla Starch]

TIL Failrace is getting ambitious with a real-life car hat racing series.

 

[fastone371]

Oh, so sorry, $300-$900 instead of $1500.

I am SOOO WAAAY off base

I will direct your attention to this on point post by @Mr616



So, @Majorwolf72 you can throw money at iRacing and end up in the same boat, because that's racing.

Story time, September 2017 was my last track day. I had intended to give it up, and I had planned on it being my last day.

I was two sessions in when an intermediate rider got too close to me, panicked, and didn't grab his brake lever in time (his story). He plowed into my rear end. Luckily, my bike wasn't damaged much at all (still cost me over $1000 to fix it), and my $500 helmet was toast, and I went to the hospital with a slight concussion and a bruise from my armpit to my thigh. His bike was all twisted but I have no idea what his damage bill was.

So, let's tally the monetary risk (I'll round for ease). Approximately $18000 (my bike) + Approximately $8000 (other bike) + Approximately $1000 (helmets) $600 (cost of track day for two)

So, the momentary risk is approximately $27000+ (give or take) plus the real risk of injury or even death.

If this real life, significant cost and risk of life and limb, didn't prevent a bad event from occurring, how can spending more on a virtual game prevent bad things from a happening?

How silly of me though, "serious" racers never run into this problem. They NEVER have incidents of over aggressive driving. Never, never, never happens

Racing incidents are not where the problem lies, it's the people who will try to push you off the track because you dared to pass them or the ones that intentionally do not brake at the end of a long straight hoping to catch your rear bumper. You can tell they are doing it on purpose because you saved the replay and saw them do it to other cars. Those are the drivers most would like to see out of sport mode

 

[Voodoovaj]

Racing incidents are not where the problem lies, it's the people who will try to push you off the track because you dared to pass them or the ones that intentionally do not brake at the end of a long straight hoping to catch your rear bumper. You can tell they are doing it on purpose because you saved the replay and saw them do it to other cars. Those are the drivers most would like to see out of sport mode

I've been through the ranks and I have beat this drum a million times.

If you, as a player, make the conscious choice to stagnate and stay in the lower ranks where bad drivers thrive, then it's on you. There is more than enough opportunity and information for you to improve yourself and leave those people behind.

What you are describing happens with far less frequency at higher DR levels. You mentioned people protecting their DR before, and you are correct that there s a protectionist mentality, that's why high A's and A+ don't partake in that garbage.

You of all people should know that money won't buy skill.

 

[Majorwolf72]

Oh, so sorry, $300-$900 instead of $1500.

I am SOOO WAAAY off base

I will direct your attention to this on point post by @Mr616



So, @Majorwolf72 you can throw money at iRacing and end up in the same boat, because that's racing.

Story time, September 2017 was my last track day. I had intended to give it up, and I had planned on it being my last day.

I was two sessions in when an intermediate rider got too close to me, panicked, and didn't grab his brake lever in time (his story). He plowed into my rear end. Luckily, my bike wasn't damaged much at all (still cost me over $1000 to fix it), and my $500 helmet was toast, and I went to the hospital with a slight concussion and a bruise from my armpit to my thigh. His bike was all twisted but I have no idea what his damage bill was.

So, let's tally the monetary risk (I'll round for ease). Approximately $18000 (my bike) + Approximately $8000 (other bike) + Approximately $1000 (helmets) $600 (cost of track day for two)

So, the momentary risk is approximately $27000+ (give or take) plus the real risk of injury or even death.

If this real life, significant cost and risk of life and limb, didn't prevent a bad event from occurring, how can spending more on a virtual game prevent bad things from a happening?

How silly of me though, "serious" racers never run into this problem. They NEVER have incidents of over aggressive driving. Never, never, never happens

I‘m sorry for you real life experiences and glad nothing more serious happened. That also explains your emotional involvement in the topic.

100, 300 or whatever $ WILL prevent a lot of „12 year old crash kids“ from entering the competition. Or the good grumpy unemployed with too much time on his hands and a grudge. Or some crazy overambitious Spaniards or Brazilians. Or...

Will you be able to eliminate „idiots“ altogether? Never, because wealth and brains is not corrrelated (sadly...). But you will likely deterr 50% by a „pay for faults“ model. And I‘ll take 50% less idiots anytime. I would pay for that.

 

[vvise]

no.