Gumpert Apollo New Lap Record at the 'Grüne Hölle'

dancardesigner
I think oppinion is beside the point. I was going of stated facts myself, not oppinion like the others.
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You were going by what Radical defines as a production car, which will obviously, be their own product. It's still their opinion however, of which many folks just don't agree with.
 
You need to have a fair knowledge to run a Radical from what I've seen, an Apollo owner could buy the car and drive it, whereas the Radical has to be treated like a race car.
 
You need to have a fair knowledge of TVRs just to open the door of one. Doesn't make it less of a production car...


They build 'em, sell 'em to people who give them the right amount of money and the people can then drive them away from the factory using public roads. It's that simple. Why do we need further definitions depending on how hard they are to drive or whether they have a roof?
 
See no mention of what tyres the Grumpet was on... would be nice to know if it was running road tyres or slicks.
 
Of this I am acutely aware.

However it's worth noting that the car was driven from the Radical factory to the 'Ring and back again. If we're talking about road legality with reference to 'Ring laps, that's a pretty firm backup.
 
It's a barely legal sports prototype. It's not meant to be anything else. Thus, it should be classified as more of a race car than a road car.
 
Don't quote me on this, (well do if you want but I have tried aseraching and can't find anything definitive) but I recall reading somewhere, sometime that to qualify for a production car the company had to be producing and selling an average of at least 25 of that model per year the model is being produced. The car also has to be fully road legal in standard manufacturer spec. The Radical does these things, the only question mark is that it's not road legal in many places, but if you start disqulaifying a car because it's road legal in one place but not another you'll start disqualifying a suprising number of cars. If someone has a source that backs me up please post it, if you have something that states otherwise please post that as well, but I struggled to find anything beyond forum talk to confirm what the actual requirements are.

The Radical is a production road car, it's road legal and it's produced and sold in numbers I think in excess of 100 a year. The fact it's astonishingly quick on a track doesn't mean it's not a road legal production car and you can't disqualify it just because Radical have focused so much on track performance.

Jim Prower, the FIA don't decide if a car when stock is a production road car or not. Whatever thier reasons for putting the Radical in the SP class it has no bearing on what does and does not qualify for a production road car.
 
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ON that note, you'd have to disqualify quite a few European cars for not meeting US Crash/emissions standards.
 
Exactley, and they arn't the only cars that would be disqualified, there are cars that arn't legal here because they are too loud for example, there are cars not legal in places because their headlights are slightly too low yet in another country they're fine. You simply cannot go down that route because the most likely cars to be road legal everywhere are probably the mundane daily drivers and least likely to be the sportscars. So it's a silly angle to start to use to decide of a car qualifies or not, and I guess that's why the people who keep tabs of the times don't.
 
Viper ACR is what? Becasue it's not the fasters production car around the Ring unless it's managed to shave 30+ seconds off the fastest time I've read it achieve.
 
dancardesigner
Oh my god did you see the rest of the proof. Anyway Wiki is not always right either, a lot of the info on there is put on by ordinary folk.

Edit: Quote from wikipedia

''This article needs additional citations for verification''

Have a hat:dunce:
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dancardesigner
Just found this on wiki, even further backs me up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times

Scroll to the chart.
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Now now, lets not go contradicting ourselves.

I'm going to stop contributing to this thread for a while. My first post was to comment at the fact that all you did to this thread was essentially turn it into an SR8 thread. It may be the fastest production "car" around the ring. But the Gumpert Apollo is now second. That is a feat in itself.
 
dancardesigner
Just found this on wiki, even further backs me up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times

Scroll to the chart.
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Appears to be missing one car on there that I remember used to be on the wikipedia site till somebody changed it to a Kia Spectra and it was deleted after that.

http://www.sps-automotive.com/en_sps/track/07Nt_zonda.html

Obviously is out of date these days but the car is the Mclaren F1. From memory the time was based off a video recording of the lap. Car I'm pretty sure was the Mclaren F1 LM though. Normal F1 is somewhere in the 7.40's.

Sorry for the off topic but I thought it was interesting.
 
bergauk
Now now, lets not go contradicting ourselves.

I'm going to stop contributing to this thread for a while. My first post was to comment at the fact that all you did to this thread was essentially turn it into an SR8 thread. It may be the fastest production "car" around the ring. But the Gumpert Apollo is now second. That is a feat in itself.
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I knew you were going to bring that up. But the difference is my chart is regularly and more recently updated, and doesn't say ''This article needs additional citations for verification'', LIKE YOURS DID.
Admit you lost this one and humbly walk away, before you make yourself look more of a pratt.

Have another hat:dunce:
 
dancardesigner
Just found this on wiki, even further backs me up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times

Scroll to the chart.
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No, it doesn't dan.

I've seen that same page as well, & anybody whose seen it within the last 5 months knows it's been changed up. In the past, the Radical & several more where previously listed under another category below Production Car.

This is combined with the fact that anyone can edit this as well as remove/edit lap times & descriptions, and even add citations.
 
Doesn't change the fact that whatver anyone thinks the Radical is a production road car.

They sell it in excess of 100 per year, I'm pretty sure I've read that the number to qualify is only 25 per year, makes sense that it's a low number since cars like the McLaren F1 wouldn't be production cars otherwise. The Radical is fully road legal in it's country of origin and in the country the lap time was done in, ie Germany. Therefore it is both a road legal car and a production car in both countries meaning the lap was done by a production road car.

If it wasn't road legal in Germany then they could have classed it's ring time as not done by a road legal car, but was, it is and it has been.
 
Dave A
Doesn't change the fact that whatver anyone thinks the Radical is a production road car.

they sell it in excess of 100 per year, I'm pretty sure a car has to sell 25 or more to qualify. It's fully road legal in it's country of origin and in the country the lap time was done in, ie Germany. Therefore it is both a road legal car and a production car making it a production road car.

If it wasn't road legal in Germany then they could have classed it's ring time as not done by a road legal car, but was, it is and it has been.
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That's not my point Dave. It's that he claimed the Wiki page backs up his statements when he fails to realize that at one point in time, the Radical wasn't under Production, & then was.

It's like me saying, "I think the 2009 GT-R was stock & on road tires. The Wiki page backs me up". But in reality, there's been an on going feud between 2 idiots with 1 claiming stock, & 1 claiming modified with them changing it up every other day.

How can you quote such a page as your "source" when people get angry & constantly change the page back to their "facts".
 
McLaren
That's not my point Dave. It's that he claimed the Wiki page backs up his statements when he fails to realize that at one point in time, the Radical wasn't under Production, & then was.

It's like me saying, "I think the 2009 GT-R was stock & on road tires. The Wiki page backs me up". But in reality, there's been an on going feud between 2 idiots with 1 claiming stock, & 1 claiming modified with them changing it up every other day.

How can you quote such a page as your "source" when people get angry & constantly change the page back to their "facts".
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It's been changed once, chances are the newer version is correct, also most other sources of information including their own website class it as so, you are trying to back up your argument with the past, ''what used to be'', not ''what is''. Things have obviously changed since then. Try doing a bit more, searching. As far as i'm concerned the info has been corrected.
 
McLaren
That's not my point Dave. It's that he claimed the Wiki page backs up his statements when he fails to realize that at one point in time, the Radical wasn't under Production, & then was.

It's like me saying, "I think the 2009 GT-R was stock & on road tires. The Wiki page backs me up". But in reality, there's been an on going feud between 2 idiots with 1 claiming stock, & 1 claiming modified with them changing it up every other day.

How can you quote such a page as your "source" when people get angry & constantly change the page back to their "facts".
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Well yeah I agree with that, and he shouldn't tell one person Wikipedia is no good as a source and then use it to back his own argument up. I've been in one or two debates with him recently so let's just say I've got my own opinion of his debating and reasoning skills. He just happens to be right that the Radical is a production road car 👍.
 
Dave A
Well yeah I agree with that, and he shouldn't tell one person Wikipedia is no good as a source and then use it to back his own argument up. I've been in one or two debates with him recently so let's just say I've got my own opinion of his debating and reasoning skills. He just happens to be right that the Radical is a production road car 👍.
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I never said it wasn't a good source, i said it's not always right, because that idiot said google isn't always right, well derrr:dunce:. Plus his wiki entry was incorrect, outdated and needed additional citations for verification, mine did not. So carefully analyse the conversation before jumping the gun.
 
dancardesigner
It's been changed once, chances are the newer version is correct, also most other sources of information including their own website class it as so, you are trying to back up your argument with the past, ''what used to be'', not ''what is''. Things have obviously changed since then. Try doing a bit more, searching. As far as i'm concerned the info has been corrected.
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I highly suggest you click on this link & tell me again that it's only been changed once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nürburgring_lap_times&action=history

My argument has nothing to do with "Then vs. Now". It has to do with you quoting it as another "source" that "backs you up", when any idiot can go in there & suddenly change it. Look back at my GT-R example; I can claim its stock with the Wiki saying so one day, & the next, I appear wrong b/c it's been changed.
dancardesigner
I never said it wasn't a good source, i said it's not always right, because that idiot said google isn't always right, well derrr:dunce:. Plus his wiki entry was incorrect, outdated and needed additional citations for verification, mine did not. So carefully analyse the conversation before jumping the gun.
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The problem here is that you are misunderstanding the page's citation issue. It means that Wikipedia wants more sources for the page as their only 3 source links below, not that the information on the page is wrong.

As for outdated, it's not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radical_Sportscars&action=history

What is outdated though, is the citation box seeing as it is dated December 2008.
 
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McLaren
I highly suggest you click on this link & tell me again that it's only been changed once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nürburgring_lap_times&action=history

My argument has nothing to do with "Then vs. Now". It has to do with you quoting it as another "source" that "backs you up", when any idiot can go in there & suddenly change it. Look back at my GT-R example; I can claim its stock with the Wiki saying so one day, & the next, I appear wrong b/c it's been changed.
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I was referring to the category of the SR8, not how many times the list has been edited.

Edit: You know what, who gives a flying ****, not me, i don't give a crap what you want to believe, makes no difference to me. This is all i'm going to say on the matter, now the rest of you, carry on having petty conversations, over the stupidest of missunderstandings, what a fullfilling life. Peace out
 
At 3.316hp per kg(1.527hp per lb), I would have thought 7.00 mins was easy.
Seems to me , that the performance outrates the road tyres.

A comparison to some others in a pwr /wgt


Chrysler ME Four-Twelve - .295 hp/lb
McLaren F1 - .251 hp/lb
Bugatti 16/4 Veyron - .230 hp/lb
Ferrari Enzo - .219 hp/lb
1965 Ford GT40 Mk1 - .213 hp/lb
Ferrari Koenig 360 Modena - .174 hp/lb
Lamborghini Countach - .139 hp/lb
Dodge Viper RT/10 - .131 hp/lb
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - .123 hp/lb
Porsche 911 Turbo - .119 hp/lb
Ford Mustang Cobra R - .107 hp/lb
Ferrari Testarossa - .104 hp/lb


I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Porsche doing 7.30-40 mins. The lack of pwr/wgt compared to the Appolo is like a Steamroller to a Top fueller.
 
The SR8 is in a whole different class. It may not qualify as street legal because it may not be "street legal" everywhere in the world. The Apollo qualifies as street legal in all countries, but the SR8 might not because it has, no roof, no airbags and no windshield. About production, how many SR8's do you see on the road? How many do you see at all? You might be lucky to spot one at a track day, but that's about it.
 
PJ-FFL
About production, how many SR8's do you see on the road? How many do you see at all? You might be lucky to spot one at a track day, but that's about it.
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Same goes for the Appolo though. Not to mention even though looking at it you would not think so, i bet the SR8 is the better daily driver than the Appolo, i bet it get's way better mpg, it doesn't have as crazy power output and i bet it's just generally easier to drive.
 
PJ-FFL
The SR8 is in a whole different class. It may not qualify as street legal because it may not be "street legal" everywhere in the world. The Apollo qualifies as street legal in all countries
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Renaults aren't street legal in China. So let's scrub the Megane R26's FWD lap record then, shall we?

The specific SR8 was built by Radical, driven from the factory through England, France, Belgium and Germany to the Nuerburgring, driven round it to a 6'55 laptime and driven back again.

PJ-FFL
but the SR8 might not because it has, no roof, no airbags and no windshield.
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My brother's car has none of those things and yet is legal in the UK and the USA.

PJ-FFL
About production, how many SR8's do you see on the road? How many do you see at all? You might be lucky to spot one at a track day, but that's about it.
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Radical took more preorders for the SR8 than any other car in their history.

In the three years from 2005-2008 Gumpert made FORTY Apollos. It's reasonable to assume, in the absence of figures for this year, they've now made FORTY-EIGHT, which means there are fewer Gumpert Apollos than McLaren F1s, Bugatti Veyrons, Jaguar XJ220s and one quarter as many Ford RS200s. So. How many of any of those have you seen?


They make them, they sell them to people who give them the right amount of money and those people can then drive them away on the public road. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.
 

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