Have you become the rammer in the game?!

8
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
We've all been there; Rammed in the braking zone, edged off the outside of a bend, nudged, bumped and brake-checked.
"They're ruining the game" we all cry "Those [insert rude word] rammers!" (and the crazy inconsistent penalty system)
But who are they?
Well,
what if it's US!

Yesterday while doing Daily Race C I caught up to a guy around lap 7, followed him for a couple of laps but was getting caught again by the mid-field pack and he was around a second or more off-pace, I made a passing move on the second sweeping right hander down the hill after the chicane-of-death section.

I held a tight inside line on the kerb, but he took his normal line and went for the apex (where I was) and we contacted. Nothing big, just a bump. Both of us were fine and I even stayed track-centre to give him space.
He then immediately turned into me and pushed me off the track!

I watched the replay and apart from confirming it was deliberate (see shot video clip linked below) I watched his race. The reason we caught him up in the first place was because he lost time when he rammed another driver off at the hairpin after the chicane!

His first few laps were a great1:48+ consistent and clean. Then he got hit and took it very personal, which is when he became the rammer and his pace slowed to 1:50+ .
He had a YouTube link on his car so I watched his stream of the race and he was commentating like everyone was a "D***head" etc and how THEY must learn. He must have been quite angry already by the time I made my passing move and counted me in with "THEY" and dished out the justice.
He had many incidents during the second half of the race, possibly due to his state of mind after that first impact. After the race, the guy who hit him originally made a comment to say he wanted to say sorry but since he'd subsequently revenge-rammed him off twice, he just wanted to say he was an idiot.

The "Revenge-rammer" not satisfied with the chaos he had caused in the second half, then proceed to click on all the people in the race-list who he'd had contact with and reported them within GT-Sport. He then went to PSN and reported everyone there too!

I watched an earlier race he had on the stream and he can clearly race close and clean when it suits him, but once the red mist comes down he went into total denial that he was in any way one of the problems in the game and in a chat I had with him on his channel, admitted he felt he was justified. He didn't even save the replay to watch whether any of the contacts were accidental.

Maybe we are all the rammers we hate to meet in the game and we just need the right conditions to flick our switch!


Can't wait to find out what happens next now that I've been reported for overtaking!!!

I would be interested to know others thoughts and experience, on the video and also whether the majority of bad drivers are simply any of us who have overreacted in the heat of the moment and created a monster from an innocent mistake

I know this thread is mostly cathartic for me and for that I thank your indulgence, but I sometimes find it hard to believe what people feel is "deliberate" or "too much" and cannot accept apologies or that they overreacted

Anyhow, It's beer o-clock now so... cheers!
 
4,768
England
Nelson, England
GTP_ASH32
You need to remove the driver's name from your video title otherwise the mods will remove it.

Also I can tell you what will happen to all of you who have been reported, nothing, even actual rammers who do it every race are not banned anymore. He could get a ban for false reporting on PSN but will probably just get a warning.
 
1,018
United States
Phoenix, AZ
MonyB
I haven't watched the video yet but I do know and can say this - the current penalty and SR systems are not only responsible for but actively encourage this attitude and behavior. I've been in this guys shoes before. Maybe not the extent that you describe it but I know exactly how he feels. You spend countless hours improving your driving skills, you try to race clean but race after race after race is ruined by someone running you off the track with no consequence.

It's very difficult for most people to see the larger picture - that they are going to have better and more consistent results if they actively avoid the rammers, slammers and other mamma jammers and pick better spots to defend and overtake - when there is a penalty system in place that ostensibly is supposed to handle those things. I'm more and more becoming part of the crowd that thinks we need either a completely shared fault penalty system or no penalty system at all. What we have right now is not only encouraging the rammer crowd, it's breeding more of them.
 
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4,768
England
Nelson, England
GTP_ASH32
Nope, don't care. It won't be returned by search engines as a GTPlanet post.

Oh ok, I thought it (name ban) extended to video titles too, I was sure I've seen that posted before but obviously not. :cheers:

Up to the OP whether to keep or change it then.;)
 
8
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
You need to remove the driver's name from your video title otherwise the mods will remove it.

Also I can tell you what will happen to all of you who have been reported, nothing, even actual rammers who do it every race are not banned anymore. He could get a ban for false reporting on PSN but will probably just get a warning.

Thanks for that - I was worried as I've never been reported before (to my knowledge) and wondered if they gave me a chance to give my side. I can't see how anyone watching my overtake could interpret as a reportable incident. But it's a crazy world sometimes

I'm more and more becoming part of the crowd that thinks we need either a completely shared fault/penalty system or no penalty system at all. What we have right now is not only encouraging the rammer crowd, it's breeding more of them.

I agree. The current system is clearly easy for people to abuse the inadequacies of the incident assessment algorithm. It's like it was designed to only give penalties to people driving clean who make mistakes.

Oh ok, I thought it (name ban) extended to video titles too, I was sure I've seen that posted before but obviously not. :cheers:

Up to the OP whether to keep or change it then.;)
I changed it - It wasn't intended here to be a shaming video
 
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4,768
England
Nelson, England
GTP_ASH32
I changed it - It wasn't intended here to be a shaming video

Yes I figured as much as you wouldn't have bothered to write out the rest of your post as you did. Probably better this way, even though it was not against the rules before, as the point you make could easily get lost if this decends into shaming nonsense. Also if that was to happen now there is nothing more you could have done to prevent it. :)

People slowly becoming what they complain about, after receiving too much for them to take, happens in real motorsport too, especially when they get away with it, as usually happens in Gtsport. Not that I endorse or encourage this but it is understandable.

:gtpflag:
 
114
United States
United States
I’m new to the game, but the ramming is definitely annoying. I honestly believe a lot of the ramming is accidental, from bad racers not knowing their braking points. From there, the person who got rammed takes it on themselves to get revenge.

A penalty system would be nearly impossible to implement on a video game. Video replay in real sports doesn’t always get it right, so what hope does a game have? Even still, let’s pretend you receive a 3s penalty for ramming someone off the track. The person who gets rammed off will lose way more than 3 seconds trying to get back on track. So the rammer still “wins”. If the person they hit doesn’t go off track, then it becomes a bit more fair where the punishment is justified. But what about when someone hits you from the side and YOU get penalized? Major BS. I just don’t see how any penalty system will accurately be able to judge who was at fault. No AI can judge intent, either.

My best solution is a damage model. This would penalize both the rammer and the victim, but it could also stop people from ramming if they knew that a big collision would end their race. It would also create a reason for vigilante justice where someone gets bumped off the track, and they end up waiting for you on the next lap and take you both out of the race.

At the end of the day, I think a competitive AI career mode is the best solution. I know some people prefer to play real people, but emotions and skill levels vary wildly online, and it’s only a matter of time before someone who had a bad day at work gets tapped into the gravel on accident, and it sends him into a rage where he looks for his revenge. I honestly don’t think there is any realistic way to police the game fairly and accurately. Too many players and way too many variables come into play.
 
8
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
My best solution is a damage model. This would penalize both the rammer and the victim, but it could also stop people from ramming if they knew that a big collision would end their race. It would also create a reason for vigilante justice where someone gets bumped off the track, and they end up waiting for you on the next lap and take you both out of the race.

Too many players and way too many variables come into play.

A damage system could work - especially if you made bonnets take more damage than boots ;) but you're right, AI penalties are always going to be flawed
 
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5,747
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
My best solution is a damage model. This would penalize both the rammer and the victim, but it could also stop people from ramming if they knew that a big collision would end their race. It would also create a reason for vigilante justice where someone gets bumped off the track, and they end up waiting for you on the next lap and take you both out of the race.

Too many players and way too many variables come into play.

A damage system could work - especially if you made bonnets take more damage than boots ;) but you're right, AI penalties are always going to be flawed

Nope, damage won't work since the victim is usually off much worse. Get bumped into a wall, minor damage to the rammer, your car is done. More damage to the front will simply encourage brake checking. You can't wait for the next lap for vigilante justice since you'll be ghosted. What you will get is pissed off people forcing their way through traffic trying to take revenge.

Penalties can work, have worked way better than they are currently, and even succeeded in cleaning up racing for a while when penalties were very strict. However penalties can't work anymore since the penalty judgement has moved to the server without any knowledge of where on the track an incident happens.
 
8
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
the penalty judgement has moved to the server without any knowledge of where on the track an incident happens.[/QUOTE]

Is this true? That's crazy if the system has no context of the contact!
 
39
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
JudgeBerry
I haven't watched the video yet but I do know and can say this - the current penalty and SR systems are not only responsible for but actively encourage this attitude and behavior. I've been in this guys shoes before. Maybe not the extent that you describe it but I know exactly how he feels. You spend countless hours improving your driving skills, you try to race clean but race after race after race is ruined by someone running you off the track with no consequence.

It's very difficult for most people to see the larger picture - that they are going to have better and more consistent results if they actively avoid the rammers, slammers and other mamma jammers and pick better spots to defend and overtake - when there is a penalty system in place that ostensibly is supposed to handle those things. I'm more and more becoming part of the crowd that thinks we need either a completely shared fault penalty system or no penalty system at all. What we have right now is not only encouraging the rammer crowd, it's breeding more of them.


My thoughts exactly on shared penalties. They have tried something clever (maybe machine learning from reported incidents?) and it has had the opposite effect to that we want to see. Just go back to how it was - if you have contact and someone leaves the track both cars are penalised.
 
637
Canada
Canada
xPat_McCrotchxx
its embarrassing for PD that punts and shunts that would get you 4-5 seconds last year are now fair game and never penalized. even people who wouldn't normally revenge punt due to the time loss and killing their own race might consider it when they know there is likely no consequence. i honestly dont know wtf they are doing. just go revert back. I've been playing so so so much less since they went full mad max fury road with the penalty system and im sure alot of others as well.
 
5,747
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
the penalty judgement has moved to the server without any knowledge of where on the track an incident happens.

Is this true? That's crazy if the system has no context of the contact![/QUOTE]

It's the only possible explanation left :/

It was first handled on the clients since you could get blamed for lag hits and your client would actually show other cars carrying penalties over the finish yet not having a penalty (red dot) at all.

When the penalty system got a big overhaul (August 2018) the assessment must have moved server side. Since then you see how much penalty time each car has and lag hits are handled differently. However the distinction between contacts happening in braking zones or outside them disappeared. What was introduced was getting hit and the other car went off or tapped a wall, you get a penalty.

Since then it has all been variations based on what happens after contact. A car going off track / touches a wall, a car that gains speed, or loses/gains a position. Without any knowledge where it happens or what leads up to it. So you get all these penalties for getting hit, gaining speed penalty (outside car in the turn gets the penalty or rammed from behind) or the other car goes off after and no penalties issued for getting punted off (you gain speed other car loses speed then you go off, both lose according to the faulty logic, no penalty)

If it does have any context of the contact, then PD must be employing the worst programmers on the planet.
 
5,747
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
I still stands by my thoughts that the initial penalty system was by far the best, when compared to all adjustments done after. They just encouraged worse and worse sportsmanship with various experiments...

The initial penalty system worked initially because it were mostly serious racers that raced at the start. Race standards already started dropping in December 2017, getting worse and worse into 2018 until PD implemented the harsh penalties. That cleaned up races quick, yet also created a back lash along the fast rubbing is racing crowd, although even sniffing a bumper could net you a 10 second penalty. The problem was that lag still affected penalties and your client would give you 10 sec penalties for tiny lag brushes.

Instead of fixing the lag problems by having the clients communicate about penalties, PD seems to have moved it server side losing all context to base penalties on. (And you can still get blamed for someone lagging into you...)
 
114
United States
United States
Reason # 283737744 that I much prefer a fun and competitive career mode with AI drivers only. Some people want the bragging rights of having a high ranking, but I personally just want competitive racing where I don’t have to look over my shoulder. The AI races you clean now that they aren’t on rails like previous titles. The problem is, they aren’t that competitive and the challenge comes from starting a long race at the back and having to pick off multiple drivers per lap in order to take the lead near the end of the race. Project cars 2 career is awesome, and it’s something I hope GT can adopt. A lot of us don’t want to race real people, because that is a recipe for hurt feelings and drivers looking for revenge. I just want to race and be involved in competitive races, and online doesn’t really do that for me like I wish it did.
 
358
Netherlands
Rotterdam
Have you become the rammer?

to be honest: yes. when starting online races i had been a gentlemen racer, a clean and fast race was more important then the result.
But in the last few months a clean and fun race is an exception. a lot more drivers now are very aggresive on track.

with the current penalty system one usually gets a 1 second penalty for sending someone into the wall and the one hitting the wall gets a bigger penalty for a barrier collision!? it is vey frustrating when i driver rams the side of your car and a penalty is given to you.

Worst is that ones own attitude changes as well. Last FIA race i felt like being in a ring with both Tyson and Holyfield, being hit everywhere. in the end i threw a punch back, throw the towel and left the ring. Offcourse punished with a severe DR/SR drop, but understand and accept that.

I did a few daily races to get SR/DR back to a normal level after that FIA race and got to aggresive myself, and although it got a few good results i did not like the way my attitude on track had changed. So i set my mindset back on the last race to being a gentlemen racer again, and offcourse i got rearended into the gravel. :banghead:

so i'm taking a break from online racing to think if i still want to compete......
 
114
United States
United States
Have you become the rammer?

to be honest: yes. when starting online races i had been a gentlemen racer, a clean and fast race was more important then the result.
But in the last few months a clean and fun race is an exception. a lot more drivers now are very aggresive on track.

with the current penalty system one usually gets a 1 second penalty for sending someone into the wall and the one hitting the wall gets a bigger penalty for a barrier collision!? it is vey frustrating when i driver rams the side of your car and a penalty is given to you.

Worst is that ones own attitude changes as well. Last FIA race i felt like being in a ring with both Tyson and Holyfield, being hit everywhere. in the end i threw a punch back, throw the towel and left the ring. Offcourse punished with a severe DR/SR drop, but understand and accept that.

I did a few daily races to get SR/DR back to a normal level after that FIA race and got to aggresive myself, and although it got a few good results i did not like the way my attitude on track had changed. So i set my mindset back on the last race to being a gentlemen racer again, and offcourse i got rearended into the gravel. :banghead:

so i'm taking a break from online racing to think if i still want to compete......
From reading the fia thread on here makes it pretty clear that ramming is part of the game. You can be the most courteous racer imaginable, but the guy next to you will most likely not hesitate to take you out if it will help him. The 2 best f1 drivers of all time both won a championship by ramming the second place driver off the track so that he couldn’t beat them. GT is obviously way below an f1 race, but it just goes to show that even the best drivers of all time will take you out when it benefits them. Some guy at home on his couch drinking a beer? Yeah, you’re going to be rammed into the gravel. There is a solid game underneath all the ramming, but at this point it’s too hard to contain it. There are so many drivers of varying skills, and most of them run with a win at all costs motto. The offline career mode is very bare bones, but it’s the only racing you’re going to get where you don’t have to watch your mirror for someone coming up to take you out.
 
6,192
United Kingdom
Birmingham, UK
GOTMAXPOWER
I like to race people the same way they race against me. If somebody deliberately takes me out I'll remember the name and balance things back up at a convenient time.

There are the little ones too, last night somebody ran me wide onto the grass on the exit a few times just as I was finishing the pass (the standard A+ move). I didn't want to wreck him but did want him to know that I didn't appreciate the driving so gave him a small bump in the hairpin, enough to move him off the line but only enough to drop the 1 position.

Essentially you have to operate your own penalty system.
 

Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
Revenge punts/rams are so dumb, it’s like everyone assumes contact is deliberate rather than just putting it down to an accident.

Whether or not it’s intentional the driver at fault is at fault.
Am I the rammer? I have been, but I’m getting a lot more tolerant now and better at controlling myself. The best thing is to remain clean at all times, but if you go through a period where you play a lot I think revenge can be needed for sanity at times...
“I didn’t do it on purpose” is not a believable excuse and doesn’t change the fact that the player who hits you is responsible. “I’m on controller” is also no excuse...
Imo sometimes you you gotta let loose with the revenge or you will bottle up frustration and it’s bad for the mental health.
It’s interesting to look over my sr history...I had perfect 99 for the longest time, but since some pen system changes I have more small dips down below 90.

Let’s face facts, the way this pen system is, and what it has caused driving standards wise...It forces you into a very aggressive mindset if you wanna compete...
It also means at average levels guys will try to dive the inside every time. 80 percent of players go for the move every time as if their life depends on getting from 14th to 13th.
Honestly I don’t like what being in too many races does to my driving style...
I only enter races sporadically anymore due to the play that has been caused by the faulty sr system.

The sr system is a complete fail when clean serious drivers can’t even get a 50 percent chance of a clean race in an online race.

Imo the next game needs an online mode that’s more seriously clean, for racers who are in control and have few incidents.
 
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195
Germany
Germany
On watching the video: Just pathetic, that guy. Revenge already is pathetic, but this is beyond...

It's sad that "the penalty system" cannot detect the two most common, most obvious dirty moves.
This one and braking too late to punt leading car off.
Sure, they have to make sure that no innocent ppl are punished. Can't be that hard, however.

The programmers... Good coding always comes down to testing. They just don't seem to have an environment where they test these things, so the system just cannot improve.
 
297
United States
United States
For me I get my satisfaction out of avoiding someone who is clearly out to get people, or me. And I had my share of races where the same person has repeatedly rammed me, and we constantly end up near each other after recovering.

I try to view it like a wildcard. If someone’s being crazy and clearly trying to ram or punt me it’s like a midfield mini game. A lot of it can be unavoidable, and there’s some luck involved, and I get as frustrated as anyone but I look at it this way...

If I can’t be patient and find a opening to blast past said person, i see it as mostly a fail on my part. Afterwards there’s a good amount of luck in not getting divebombed, if you can’t get space easily.

but feel much better watching the moron fade away in my rear view because of my skill, vs plowing them into the wall.
 
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1,375
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Revert back to pre xmas penalty system where it was overly harsh. People actually drove well, and it was simple, don’t touch anyone and you won’t get a penalty. All the Aliens cried because “they’re so good they don’t need a penalty system” and now look where we are.

If I make contact, no matter how small, and pd wanna slap me a penalty for it, I’ll take that on the chin over getting rammed every other race.

Racing is a non contact sport, I don’t know why people forget this.
 
2,199
New Zealand
New Plymouth
I have to say I have seen stuff like that in the video. I know that I got my elbows out a few times and reacted that way early, but I have made a point to drive clean unless multiple incidents happen. If it is the same driver pulling the same stunts then I feel I can dish out some revenge. Incidents like what happened in that video I try my best to treat it as incidental and get on with it. Unless it runs my race massively then it couldn't be that bad.
 
637
Australia
Australia
Revert back to pre xmas penalty system where it was overly harsh. People actually drove well, and it was simple, don’t touch anyone and you won’t get a penalty. All the Aliens cried because “they’re so good they don’t need a penalty system” and now look where we are.

If I make contact, no matter how small, and pd wanna slap me a penalty for it, I’ll take that on the chin over getting rammed every other race.

Racing is a non contact sport, I don’t know why people forget this.

Would you honestly prefer this?


There are still crappy penalties that get dished out, but the December-March penalty system/s were much worse.
 
8
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
What if you've been a rammer since day one? :eek:

Haha! unfortunately this is also a possibility - and what I had always imagined, but recently I began thinking it was simply average people under specific conditions that trigger the rammer in all of us