"Headlights and Rain Are Hard" -Dan Greenawalt

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 5' started by Kake Bake, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    You know, I've always wanted to ask this question for a long, long time. When people say "Oh I don't want night or weather". If you own a car and driven yourself to work and back home irl, do you go like "Oh no, it's nighttime and raining or snowing!, do you park on the on side and sleep there until those conditions have passed?

    Isn't Forza a racing simulator? You know, pCARS is said to come out next year on all consoles and PC excluding PS3 and X360, and that game has Day/Night cycle and weather. I've even heard its simulating weather physics for ALL cars. I can't wait to see how pCARS compares to Forza and GT, since people said pCARS is on a whole new level in racing sims.
     
  2. Imari

    Imari

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    Honestly, I've parked the car because of heavy rain before. Normal rain is alright, but I know that torrential rain is just a recipe for accidents. Even if I drive slow and keep my own **** together, chances of being hit by some tool going too fast for the conditions are high.


    As far as racing in those conditions, yes, it happens. Then again, the amount of series that race at night is not high, and most amateurs won't. Rain is more forgiving, and usually races will just continue regardless. But races will usually be red flagged under seriously adverse conditions.

    Night and weather would be nice to have, but I agree that they need to be done properly to have the right effect. Rain is so risky because of the hugely variable grip and risk of hydroplaning, something I haven't seen particularly well represented in any game. Let alone the visual and sound effects to let you pick your line and avoid the larger pools. Night is similar although probably less complex, you really need the lighting to be spot on or it's far harder/easier than it should be.

    I'd like to see them bring in night and wet versions of tracks at the very least though, even if they don't get to changing conditions. If the focus is on providing a quality experience, I think that would be a good way to start out rather than jumping in the deep end.
     
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  3. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    True that @Imari. :tup: Since probably pCARS has those down so far, I'll like to check it out. :)
     
  4. Symtex

    Symtex

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    Its not a minor things just like damaging model is not a minor thing to add in GT series.
     
  5. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

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    At least he gives straight and clear answers, which i can appreciate.

    In this case he also responds to negative feedback; have we heard from Kaz about all the bugs, flaws, and people being disappointed with the game already? We probably never will all his answers about negative stuff (if someone actually has the balls to raise it to him for a change), end up in a "might be patched, who knows" response...
     
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  6. interpolfan11

    interpolfan11

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    This is sorta off-topic, but I'm gonna agree with the guy who predicts pCARS will flop. Forza's sales have always been a fraction of what GT's sales were prior to GT6, and that's with Forza being the superior game since FM3.

    Now, after years of GT incompetence and big-budget marketing on Microsoft's part, the two are finally on a level playing field (y'all can google the sales numbers; nothing's official, but it's pretty reasonable to assume that FM5 and GT6 are neck-and-neck sales-wise, despite the different-sized install bases).

    IMO, SMS doesn't have the resources to last long enough to reach this point, and even if they do, there can't be much profit involved considering the first-week sales for both FM5 and GT6 suggest that the genre's popularity-level is miniscule compared to how it used to be in GT's heyday.

    TL;DR: Forza and their Microsoft-sized budget, along with GT, sell like crap compared to how well games used to sell in this genre; there isn't room for another competitor, yet alone one who lacks the resources and reputation of the other two players in the genre.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  7. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

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    PCARS will own! Sales are down in the racing genre because 1: GT6 is crap, and people already had a bad aftertaste since GT5 and 2: FM5 was released on a brand new platform most people don't even have yet.

    Once more and more people go next gen during 2014, then PCARS will be released and it will be ready to give both a good run for their money. Have you seen how good this game sounds and looks? :eek::

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/project-cars-coming-2014.261206/page-166

    All slightly mad studios has to do is some good marketing so people will know it's out there (which has been a problem with their games so far).
     
  8. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    I don't know @mister dog. It's alittle exaggerating saying pCARS will sell well, even on next gen consoles. For one, people will probably say its better than GT and FM, but I doubt it'll beat them.
     
  9. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

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    Problem is PD have the monopoly on PS, and Forza has the monopoly on Xbox so people will welcome the sight of a new contender that challenges them both on their respective platforms, so far they didn't have to worry about that.

    PCARS is already looking like pure quality and excitement (just look at some vids), and for sure that won't go unnoticed once it's released. I also doubt FM6 will be ready by the time PCARS hits the stores, and i start laughing at the chance that GT7 will even come close, so SMS will have the whole market for themselves with a complete next gen racing game. :tup:
     
  10. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    Not true


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Say what you want about the games but for all intents and purposes they were competition for both GT and FM. Where are they now?
     
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  11. interpolfan11

    interpolfan11

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    Re:

    1. GT is vastly more popular than pCARS will be. Even if pCARS is better, SMS doesn't have the outreach to sell the game in large amounts, or at least not for many, many years. Consider that the original Forza (and its Microsoft-sized marketing budget) only sold about one-million units (that figure's from VGCharts, which, while being a bit crap, is a good website for ballpark numbers). Consider how long it's taken Forza to match GT's sales numbers, and consider how much GT's sales numbers have had to fall off a cliff for Forza to reach that point. Consider how well Race Driver and Enthusia did. The odds are stacked up against SMS, big-time.

    2. That works both ways; there's not a lot of games for XB1 owners to buy, and Forza might just be the best exclusive on the XB1.


    I just don't see it. GT was first released at a time when car-culture was a lot more popular than it is today (or at least in the U.S. and Japan). I don't think a racing simulator will ever reach GT's level of popularity at that time, ever again. GT5 will be the last big-selling racing sim, and the only reason it sold so well was reputation and childhood nostalgia based on earlier iterations of the game.

    Instead, we continue to receive quality Forza games and they don't sell particularly well. So if Forza and its monstrous budget can't sell decently in today's market, then why should I believe pCARS can? They won't have the marketing might to fight either game, and I also question their ability to make a flat-out better game than T10 does with Forza.
     
  12. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

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    Funny that you give this as an example; i just picked up Shift 2 this friday for 10 bucks and I'm enjoying the hell out of it, i think it already beats GT5 (6) and FM4 in the excitement department to be honest :)

    That's the thing i mentioned before with SMS, Shift 2 is a gem of a racing game but most people (including myself up until a week ago) haven't even heard of it. They need to market PCARS properly and I'm sure this will be their big breakthrough.

    I agree with you that it will be more difficult for PCARS to have the same success as GT or FM, as they are not as heavily promoted as those 2 because of the backup of Sony and MS.

    Anyhow the little boy in me wants PCARS to make it :)

    Edit: better get back on topic i suppose? :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  13. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    I can assure you shift 2 was marketed well. I don't think Pcars will be marketed as well as Shift simply because shift had EA and it's money behind it, but surely every man and his dog has heard of PCars already. This is a benefit of the crowd sourcing causing word of mouth interest.

    BTW I liked shift 2 also. But once you get passed the new excitement of something different in the racing genre space there isn't much to keep you playing. After I raced a 30-40 lapper on silverstone at night, I was done with the game. That's all it had to offer for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
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  14. SlyNine

    SlyNine

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    Such as?
     
  15. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Well for GT a proper tire model, livery editor, damage model, interior view, sounds...I think you get the idea.

    For Forza the issues stem from no active weather transition, or active day transition and functioning parts to go with it (e.g. working lights). They've just got around to a better lighting system and it still needs some work. Those are the main issues though, both have in game economy problems which isn't something PC sims are plagued by.

    However, it seems your baiting me into this, since I pull that same trick all the time to other users, so we'll see how this goes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
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  16. Imari

    Imari

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    pCARS will not outsell either FM or GT unless a miracle happens.

    However, the budget for pCARS was not big at all compared to what PD and T10 spend. They don't have to sell that many copies to turn a profit.

    As long as they turn a profit they can fund the next game, and make it a little bigger and better. No game is going to knock off titans like FM and GT in one hit. Developing a fanbase and asset base to work from takes time. But they can work their way up to it, and as they're going they pay their own salaries and make some money into the bargain.

    I expect pCARS to be reasonably well received and have some moderate success. I don't expect serious comparison to FM/GT until pCARS 2 at the earliest, probably pCARS 3.

    But who knows. Maybe it'll be a breakout hit. Certainly the conditions will be about right. At the end of next year the consoles will probably be ripe for a good simulation style racing game.
     
  17. SlyNine

    SlyNine

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    The question is quite simple, what "flailing" does (Forza in particular) have that "computer sims squared away many years ago."? To my knowledge most PC sims don't do weather or day night transitions. Plus all sims have there flaws.

    You could say that Forza's lighting needs work. I agree. But to say that the PC sims have just squared that away, I cannot agree with.

    fyi, its called bait and switch, and that is not what I'm doing here.
     
  18. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    IIRC up untill recently the only PC sims to do night and weather was GTR2 and GTR: EVO. Arguably the most popular (rfactor) didn't have a combination of both let alone dynamic weather. iRacing doesn't have dynamic anything unless you count updates :lol:

    Only now with the new generation sims are they moving forward with weather simulation. I wouldn't call that squared away because they are all in a beta of some form.

    Funny thing is it hasn't seemed to hurt their popularity up to this point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
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  19. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Bait and switch isn't what it's called, and that is obviously why it isn't what you're doing. You're simply luring me into an argument as I suggested, is just trying to perpetuate a debate. Not sure where you got the idea of bait and switch...unless you were trying to sell me something

    As for the only games GTR2 and GTR: EVO weren't the only ones, GP3 and GP4 had it before them and then you have Burns Rally that had it, netKar Pro, and a couple others. Also even if I didn't mention how PC sims pioneered it along with everything else we want in GT and FM, you have games before FM and still coming out doing these things with a smaller budget. Games like Supercar challenge, PGR, F1 championship edition, F1 2010 dynamic change, and newer games PCars and rFactor 2. All of these games and smaller ones that I'm probably forgetting have these features and yet the money backed MS game doesn't...

    Just like your misunderstanding of the term bait-and-switch the irony extends to the misunderstanding of flailing as I just demonstrated. FM doesn't even have night racing yet somehow the team they worked with for Horizon was able to do it...? And then you wonder "well gee why are you guys irritated", common sense explains why people are giving them and their rival flak. All the money spent making both these games and I'm wondering if staff and quantity of certain items is what takes the bulk of money while new ideas take a rest on the back burner.

    Also it's true most games have their flaws, but to continually make the same flaw shows ignorance and a lack of QA/QC.

    Also if all that people run off is the spouting of beginner dedicated sim racers who can only spout simraceway, iracing, or rfactor...then they really don't know what is fully out there or has been out there.
     
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  20. interpolfan11

    interpolfan11

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    Well I think we all know the first pCARS isn't gonna outsell FM or GT. I know my posts were written in such a way that made it seem like I was addressing that idea, but that wasn't my intention.

    I guess my point was that I doubt pCARS (as a franchise) will ever remotely challenge GT or FM. There's no room for them in such a niche marketplace, and I believe they'll be squeezed out before they can ever get their feet on the ground. GT's reputation is too strong, and I don't think FM's quality can be topped on consoles.

    Hell, I feel like it took FM forever to become semi-competitive in the marketplace, and that was with close to zero competition on their platform of choice and Microsoft-funding. So I don't really see how pCARS can come close to duplicating what they've done. Just doesn't seem feasible to me.

    Oh, and I hope I'm wrong. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  21. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    Again that isn't what I'd call 'squared away', some have it some don't. The fact that it's Microsoft backed is kind of irrelevant. They still have a budget to work with and the games include more content than most you have listed. You may even find being backed by MS as a negative given the way publishers can dictate game design and the future for franchises.

    Lets not forget FM1 had night racing back in 2005.

    It's just guess, but maybe they have standards for including these things? The direction they chose was to go with good graphics and a solid 60fps, how many of the others have that on console?
     
  22. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    So let me guess, unless most or all have it then it isn't squared away?

    Yes and it's a bigger budget than groups who have built games with the "hard" features, the fact still remains they have more than enough ability to do this. Also what do you mean more than I listed? Let me guess again, your a proponent for FM and just like the fanatical GT guys, you think I'm here to bash FM. It's a critique there are things FM is good at but just like it's rival there is plenty of work to be done and should have been. It's not a negative to be backed by MS, since it seems the only real control is the duration between game releases.

    It's also not a negative to be backed by Sony since they seem to give PD even more reigns than MS to T10.

    I didn't forget the point to point, but just like features that have disappeared in GT, I questioned T10 for this and now I know why. Also FM1 was nearly 10 years ago, so you have to question the development of what they were doing in that area. It seems from what we've been told that as the systems advanced the implementation became more difficult and not feasible for what else was asked of us by fans.

    Which no one is faulting them for, but as has been shown there is a diminishing return with this, you can only get graphics so well and to be honest these guys are probably at their peak.
     
  23. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    I would call it squared away if it's a standard feature. Pits stops. squared away. Online multiplayer. squared away. Car setups/tuning squared away. you get the point. Yes. It's not standard in the PC world by a long shot, maybe I misunderstand what you mean with this phrase.


    I suggest you read again what I wrote about the content being more in forza than the games you listed, because it also pertains to the where some of the budget goes. How do you know what goes on in the meetings between MS and T10?

    What about Sony? Who mentioned them or even GT? Respond to that person

    They are probably evaluating it all the time. There is concept art in the studio of wet weather since the FM3 studio tours. They aren't going to come out and show half working things to the public, we've only seen that once in 10 years with the "Future of Forza motorsports" showing at E3 2010. Not sure what you are expecting here. This article in this thread is regarding patching the weather/night into FM5.

    yeah, that isn't how development of things work. If you don't have the talent you get it.



    Although it's in horizon, which I'm sure could be just ripped and put it into Motorsports series, You can see it's missing little details like the headlights casting shadows. This is what I mean by standards being upheld. Be sure people would fault them for if those details were missing, which is what you are doing because the whole feature is missing.
     
  24. Imari

    Imari

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    I'm with you in the sense that there's probably only room for one MAJOR "sim" racer of the likes of GT or FM per console. At least if you want to be selling 10+ million units. This isn't like FPSs where it seems to support a huge amount of largely similar releases. We're more niche.

    pCARS will never topple GT, as long as GT doesn't shoot themselves in the foot.

    As long as GT keeps remaking GT4, they're eventually going to alienate people. That opens the door.

    Once upon a time Need for Speed was a hugely respected franchise. They still sell pretty well, but nothing like what they did in their heyday. They crippled themselves by pumping out buggy, derivative releases to score cash out of faithful fans.

    Reputation doesn't last forever. Or rather, it does unless you abuse it.

    Remember also that FM1 only came out in 2005. In one sense that's a long time, but it's not really that long. In the period of time that GT has gone from GT4 to GT6, FM has gone from FM1 to FM5. It doesn't feel that long since GT4 since we've only had two releases, but it seems a long time since FM1 because we've had five.

    I think if pCARS does well and releases a new game every three years (which seems reasonable) we could see competition by pCARS 3. That's 6 years away. I think it's possible. A long shot, but possible.

    Then again, even a relative failure would be success in most people's books. Selling 2 million is pretty good for most games. There's plenty of room for that in the market, which I think is what they're really going for. There's a niche to be filled that is more than big enough to be profitable (and to allow the devs to do what they love), and there's an outside chance that they get a break and stick it to the big boys.
     
  25. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    No, squared away as in groups like papyrus and microprose and such which were the biggest names in pc of the 90s to early 2000s squared away many of the features many came to enjoy on the console. They pioneered and made it work and then it became word of mouth and thus requested on the console front. They they had it running and working long before the gaming you may take part in and thus squared it away. It doesn't need to be a mainstream feature done by everyone to be noticed as such. If you wanna talk popular features then sure.

    Same question can be posed to you, how do you know what goes on as well, it's a loaded question and detracts from the point. Obviously some sort of trial and error was conducted for T10 to come out and say it's too hard to do this, then you have to ask why. It'd be quite the insult for them to claim too hard just because they don't want or cant.

    Considering it was apart of what I been talking about from the get go and what you quoted original from me, you're already talking to the person. Pay attention GT was apart of my main posting here along with FM.

    I know exactly what it's about if you don't like me being critical of your game, then perhaps ignore me, but don't throw flak at me as if I didn't read the article. I'm speaking in general, it shouldn't have to be asked or talked about if a patch will come. People are right to be annoyed or concerned for supporting a game that hasn't done said features after five iterations. Man I wish I had some of you PD and T10 fanatics as bosses I'd have all the time in the world to finish up key features on engineering projects.

    Care to elaborate?

    Yes but the bulk of it is there, and people are always going to complain (and have a right) and as long a T10 say they are trying to develop it each game forward that's great. I much rather have what Horizon has than nothing, and even if T10 made it perfect in their own eyes a group of people with either bias or something else will still come to bash it.

    The differece which is going above you at this point is this is a key feature in racing games and has been, to defend and say "well you're just being nasty toward T10/FM". Seems like more bias from you than hate from me, why people for either game want to be dogmatic due to entire feature being missed and letting it pass is beyond me.
     
  26. VXR

    VXR

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    pCars will suffer as long as it's released with such a terrible name. Gran Turismo and Forza have exciting names with connotations of travel and passion respectively. pCars sounds like a placeholder. Even Project Cars sounds better, but not by much.
     
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  27. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    Why didn't they bring to to consoles then? People have been longing for a PC version of a car collector game for a while now, the shoe fits on the other foot too. I'll tell you why, because different things work for different people. they obviously thought it wasn't a priority for their games. Which is the same thing we're seeing on Forza right now on the weather/night subject.
    I don't know what goes on in those meetings but you can't just assume because a studio is under the umbrella of a big publisher they have unlimited funds, resources and time to do what ever they please which is what you said
    -It's not a negative to be backed by MS, since it seems the only real control is the duration between game releases-
    Impossible to know. What you can do is look at the history of studios that have been under big umbrellas. http://bf4central.com/2013/11/ea-pushed-battlefield-4-quality-control/ Are you suggesting there is no pressure in these working environments? You even allude to this in your comments further down in this quoted post, in a condescending manner I might add.

    You can ask why all you want, it isn't here. What do we gain from knowing the precise details?

    Not interested in a fleeting comment that has little to do with the subject matter which is forza/night/weather. GT tyres physics etc has nothing to do with this. That very comment was also unfounded. GT and Forza stand on their own two feet as Car-life simulators or Car collection games. This is an area the PC sims you seem to think make the two game irrelevant are severely lacking. Where would you go on PC for that without mod content? AutoClubRevolution? It's some way behind in almost every aspect.

    You can be critical all you like, you can be annoyed as much as you like too. You asked a question I told you the known facts. Asking for every little detail on why this or that hasn't or has been done is a fruitless quest. All we really need to know is 'did this feature make the cut?' that's enough to make a purchase. anything else is just forum points. It seems to me people like spending more time talking about games than playing them.

    Here's that quote. Picture your Boss as Microsoft instead.

    Do I have to go through the entire design, development pipeline and optimization processes? There is no way this is as good as graphics are going to get. There are a number of graphical areas FM5 can improve in. Much the same way they improved over FM4.

    I don't know what you do for work, but I like to think end product my customer sees is the best quality I can give them. If I can't to something to that quality I won't half ass something in quickly that isn't up to the rest of the products quality and tell them this is the best I could do. I'd rather say I couldn't get it done, If I did I wouldn't expect them to like it either. They'll have to wait until I can, call someone else in or take what I could finish. I call it pride of work and quality control. Sometimes they may take their custom elsewhere and that isn't great for me, but I'd rather be honest. People tend to appreciate that and good workmanship. You say bias, I say empathy.

    These posts are getting too big so I'll end this here
     
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  28. Imari

    Imari

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    Not sure if serious...

    http://www.wmdportal.com/projects/cars/

    Full name is Project C.A.R.S. C.A.R.S. from memory stands for Community Assisted Racing Simulation. I don't think it's set in stone as the final name, but there's incentive to keep it simply because there's been so much publicity using that name already.
     
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  29. GregOr1971

    GregOr1971

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    Forza thing > after FM4 and FH it was kinda logical evolution that they will finaly made day/night transition > realtime lighting. I don't think there's really excuse to make new game on what ? 5 x powerfull console with 15 times memory than 360 and there's still half baked enviroment ? I don't think that engine is so new(or built from the ground up) as they claim it is , because there are some design glitches that were here in FM4 , FM3 :D Same glitches on NEW engine ? Same L256 bug? Please.


    pCars > as a driving fan I guess it will be worth buying. I liked SHIFT but handling was questionable. Then can pC beats GT,FM ? No. Those franchises are monsters . SMS once tried to join the club together with lots of EA money but didn't succeded. There's just not enough money /investors to make a BIG game with zilion cars ... and that makes mases buy games . Not just 50-100 well simulated cars . That's why pC,iR,AC can be very good but will never be GT,FM till someone puts 200mil into .
     
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  30. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Yes but unlike those small time fringe games of the 90s and 00s FM and GT have built a far bigger fan base than the hardly known sim games of back then. Hell you didn't even know where weather dynamics came from and most people don't know nor care where the sim racing started. What they do care about is realistic sim racer for the console that provides several features and the reason T10 are talking about this at all is due to the fan base. They can't skirt by with what they think is priority sadly, that how you get leapt over when another game comes around and does what the fans want. I only stick with GT due to nostalgic love for the game, FM I play because I enjoy it but it's all XBox systems really have to offer.

    If something better came around and did everything FM does and more I'm sure many would jump ship and play it, but some (like yourself) seem to have a weird affinity for one game or the other. It's fine to care, but when you turn a blind eye to what is clearly wrong then it becomes a bit obsessive.


    Never once did I say they have unlimited funds, what I said was that they have more money in the budget than smaller groups like SMS or Simbin and so on. Now if you can provide a true quote of me saying what you've just claimed please show it, if not then don't retort with off the cusp wording I never provided. How is it impossible to know the duration of released games from T10's motorsport series? It has been two years between each game, that looks like the outline of a timeline to releases same thing that many people in project oriented fields would know about.

    Once again I implore you to show what I'm alluding to, also tone of what I'm saying though blunt isn't demeaning you arriving to that is of your own accord. I know there is quite a lot of pressure and I even said in a previous post that they probably have far more than PD does. But how quickly you forget <- now that is condescending.



    Ask yourself I meant, and we gaining knowledge in what to expect...do you need something more? Then again it's obvious are priorities are vastly different.

    Once again you quoted me and the area I took this too, and my comment was a generalization of the sim racing console genre. Thus that is why I've kept with my rhetoric. It's not fleeting, if you hadn't of stopped at the crutch you hold dear you would have seen what you were fully commenting on. PC games aren't lacking content, obviously that is something you want and something I can have or go without, I thought the idea of a sim was to capture the most realistic experience of racing possible, which once again PCs squared away a long time ago. It's a reality as I state it not something for you to get up in arms about, if you don't like that I'm not going to sugar coat this crap then fine but you're in for a long trek. However, you make it sounds as if I lose so much because I don't have tons of cars at my disposal most of which I never get around to driving anyway.


    Well that's subjective about this being a fruitless exploration or not, and where can one get these forum points? Also I play them just fine, I've already played both on other peoples hardware to gauge for myself if I should by a new console or a new game for an older console, rather than rely on people who run around the bush on this forum, then again I'll never understand consumer loyalty.


    Well I was trying to be nice but, what I was saying is could you restructure that sentence better so I could understand it. It seemed a bit broken in syntax, and no, I'm not trying to be a grammar Nazi hence why I tried to take a nicer route. Um do you know how technology hardware works, have you studied engineering? What I was simply saying is that though there may be a slight leap in detail it isn't big and other than tweaking lighting to trick people into thinking that more detail was pursued meshes multiplying isn't going to get any better than where it stands unless the medium is changed (televisions or display hardware).

    That was my point.

    Engineering by the way.

    Once again, your best isn't the same as someone else and unless T10 actually put it in they wont know how the fans receive it. I didn't think FMH had that bad of features in the new areas T10 tried and though they can use improvement it wasn't anywhere near as disastrous as the BS PD pulled with standards vs premiums in GT5. Also how can you call night racing alone "half assed" when you said it yourself that FM1 had it and FMH had it, obviously somewhere between the two it was worked on and developed, it's not something they talked about six month ago and we are harping on them to release.

    That is the major difference, what I have trouble with is that you believe in the anger fans have toward PD about missing content of the AMG, and yet cant understand why on day transition or at the least night racing alone without a transition phase. I can see why you don't want them to be hasty but fans have asked for this for a while and like I've said with it being the fifth iteration when does it stop being acceptable for you.

    Well if that's the end then oh well, another classic "I'll end this for us"