"Headlights and Rain Are Hard" -Dan Greenawalt

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 5' started by Kake Bake, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. Kake Bake

    Kake Bake (Banned)

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    Mmm, this hate sustains me.:D
     
  2. Benjinator12

    Benjinator12

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    Actually on-topic...

    My bet is that they might, might, add Night for FM6. Not weather.

    If not, then my guess for FM6's biggest new feature would be off-road/ rally.

    Both would be coming from FH. I would complain about neither one.

    FM6 is still going to need to do a lot of convincing to get me back on the Forza boat, though I'm impressed with the changes they're making to FM5. Good for them.
     
  3. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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  4. HAL20XX

    HAL20XX

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    Just give me full weather and day/night transitions on LeMans and the Ring. That's all I need the first time around (unless if they add Daytona, in which case make it those 3 tracks).
     
  5. UKMikey

    UKMikey

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    Perhaps you should head over to Eurogamer, plenty of hate in their comments section.

    I'd be disappointed if neither weather and night were in FM6 but not as much as if they dropped the frame rate in order to shoehorn them in a la Horizon. As a developer it seems like T10 are relatively upfront about what's missing in upcoming versions so at least the stangries can avoid buying the game if the feature list isn't up to spec.
     
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  6. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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  7. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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  8. Kake Bake

    Kake Bake (Banned)

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    Aw, but I like the hate here. It's a pretty small forum where almost everybody can recognize your name.

    It's like living in a cozy neighborhood full of campaigning politicians.
     
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  9. Crispy

    Crispy

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    Just to add to the first page on Dan Greenawalt.

    He seems like a nice guy, and he seems like a guy into cars. But he also seems like a guy hired by MS Game Studios for the job. Turn 10 makes games, and makes very very good games which are very successful considering T10 has a strict developing philosophy. They make a realistic plan for the game, and then complete it 100%. Sometimes you have Developers like PD who make a strict plan and then tack on this and this and don't fully finish anything. Sometimes though, it seems like Forza just lacks soul.

    GT has so many quirky things that are cool and pointless. Lunar Roving mission? That's pretty freaking fun if you ask me. The game has soul with things like this. It makes you smile before being frustrated yet again with the glitches, broken mechanics, and lack of content due to quirky things like this getting developed. Kaz makes these games because he loves to do it, not because of a paycheck. I believe he would continue making GT games until he went bankrupt. Dan on the other hand? It's his job. He loves his job, but I don't think he loves Forza like Kaz loves GT. He was hired by Microsoft to make Forza, Kaz was hired by Sony to make his dream come true, not the other way around.

    That is why you see Forza with no night racing or rain. They have realistic expectations over at T10. Instead of slapping on feature after feature with no clear management of time, they decide to to take baby steps. Dan knows that they probably could have done night racing with a few tracks, but it would be a few tracks. T10 is probably developing night racing right now. Will it be for Forza 6? Probably not. They have to overhaul the lighting engine for dynamic lighting, add new functions to cars, and tracks, and then multiply that by the cars/tracks in the game. That is a lot of hard work. Working Daytime headlights though kinda proves to me that some of these things are in development. They won't release it until the lighting engine is with as few glitches as possible, and the cars all function realistic. Will this take a while? Most certainly, but it will also blow your mind when it's done.
     
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  10. Symtex

    Symtex

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    Another post full of BS. Kaz loves GT and Dan doesn't have passion for Forza. That is baloney. Dan eyes sparkles when he talks about cars and Forza. To claims he doesn't gave the same passion is ludicrous. Dan is a methodical thinker and that's how you need approach simulation. It's reality vs perceived reality. A games full of flaws and glitches doesn't equal passion,it equals not so good programmers. With the amount of time between each GT release, there is no excuses.

    Night/day weather cycle is not on their priority list because it will make the game less accessible to the masses. There is a tons more of physics calculation with variable environment and they just don't want to fake it. So maybe we will see it on FM6. I rather see more tracks and cars right now
     
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  11. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    I would agree with everything chrispy post above. Except Dan being a hired goon :lol:

    He has been lead game designer since day one. I really do think it's because of him they have the strict developing policy. I also believe he does have the passion for the game to rival Kaz although maybe not to the point of bankruptcy lol That's an unknown. Essentially it's his baby I think he will see it through to the end. Maybe the motives in the beginning were different from Kaz in the sense that Kaz created this genre and Dan set out to better it seizing a gap in the market at the same time.

    I think the way he comes across is just part of his personality and beliefs and the way he acts in front of the media. Some people know how to talk-the-talk in the limelight, others don't handle it quite so well. That's why the might see so many 'set pieces/plays' from him maybe.

    As for the hints of night racing, there are some in FM5, and there were some in FM3/4. Notably pop-up headlights fully modelled {FM3} and {FM4} the alternate times of day - Again, they tried to cheat and people noticed almost instantly that the cast shadows didn't vary between the two. Was time of day was dropped for FM5 due to resources or quality control? Who knows. I'd like to think it was the former. But it looks they are looking into it or at least acknowledge the want for variation.

    The engine will need the lighting engine re-worked for full dynamic T-O-D though. I believe I read the forza engine is plug-in based which means they could get away with that. The ground up talk must relate to getting the engine code to work on the one Xbox one architecture, that would all had to be re-written otherwise there would be backwards compatibility with 360 games right? At least that's what I get from this "your only option would be to get the original source code and then try to port it"" so while the engine code is "built from the ground up" technically, some of the original traits remain. Every single step of this takes time, quite a few of the cross gen-games were outsourced because of the time it takes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
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  12. Crispy

    Crispy

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    I never said Dan didn't have a passion for what he does. Seeing him talk about Forza it's obvious he loves cars and Forza. Forza wasn't his idea, it was Microsofts. GT was Kaz's idea, Sony just made it happen. I personally don't think that Dan would continue with Forza if Microsoft cut Forza off its list. He would work on other racing games, but as soon as Forza started to tank he wouldn't continue. Kaz would stay with the sinking ship. Microsoft hired him because he was the best man for the job. He's worked on racing games before (Good games I might add.) and Microsoft decided he would be the best person to lead a GT game for Xbox.

    I also never said glitches=passion. I said that Kaz's idea of adding all these things in his vision for the game get in the way of actually making an unbroken game. He visions GT to be where new cars come to the game before world-wide release (BMW M4) yet PD doesn't finish the model for release in-game. The Lunar mission were great fun, but the time spent developing the coding for the gravity and the model for the moon might have been better put to use in the 100x100km Course maker he said we would have. All these vision things get in the way of actually finishing the game, whereas T10 and Dan may have the vision of perfect Day/Night, they don't release it until it, and other things are perfect.


    So is more realistic physics with detailed tire model and suspension, which coincidentally is in FM4 and FM5. That obviously didn't stop them. There are options for a reason, which I suspect weather and Day/Night will have options in the difficulty level.

    Which is what I said. They don't add these things primarily because they aren't finished. Maybe because the skill gap would rise, but T10 has a great game design philosophy where anything that someone may have a different opinion on, has an option. I would suspect that Day/Night and weather would be no different.
     
  13. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

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    Been a long time since I've seen the argument, "Oh, GT just has this soul to it". First however, outside of a physics discussion.

    Dan is just as passionate about cars as Kaz. The difference is as you said, he sets realistic goals & Kaz doesn't. He isn't trying to make a Pokemon + Dictionary of cars game.
    The two started out the same way in the gaming world. They had games they worked on previously before eventually being hired to create both of the current franchises. Sony hired Kaz because they thought it he would be the perfect candidate to create a 1st party racing game. What transpired just happened to be his vision, just like Dan's. No company sits there & hires someone so they can make their dream come true. Just more bull crap passionate love that GT fans like to pull out of the air.
     
  14. Crispy

    Crispy

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    I guess what I'm saying is PD seems like guys who got together to develop games, while T10 seems like guys hired onto the same team to make games. Same can be said between Bungie and 343i. Bungie had soul to it. They were also a bunch of college guys who decided to get together and make games. Then they got hired by MS and added to the team. 343i was created by MS to replace Bungie after they left and that soul that Bungie had just isn't present. 343i feels like something created in a lab. The difference between Bungie and PD is, Bungie were also good developers with realistic goals. PD just doesn't seem to be able to program very well on newer consoles, and their management is horrible.
     
  15. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

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    That still doesn't make any difference. They both got started in games, 1 developing a racing game & 1 as a tester. The only difference is Kaz. jumped straight into game designing where as Dan worked his way up. Beyond what appears to be Kaz picking out the GT name & MS picking out Forza, the 2 men have been in complete control of their games & the result is their own visions.

    The Halo comparison is just silly. You're talking about guys who literally got into gaming for the love of it & eventually decided to quit one of the biggest gaming franchises. Of course Microsoft was going to work to create a group to replace them. That's not what Dan is if you bother to look at his gaming history. He didn't take over for anyone. He was picked because of his background in racing games to start the new project just as Sony hired Kaz. to start a new racing game. As mentioned, it appears Kaz got to pick the name & Dan didn't.

    343i didn't get that chance. They were hired to pick up the pieces & try to make Halo games to the same standard as Bungie did & Bungie set the bar high. Dan & Kaz's histories didn't have that unfortunate expectation. They only bars they have to live up to are their past games that they themselves created.
     
  16. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    And yet more lovey dovey BS of "let's convey the emotions of these rich CEO's rather than talk facts". Let's quit with the heart string talk, if I wanted that I'd go watch a hallmark movie. I think McLaren put it best without talking about "soul" and all this other mythical stuff that people love to spout about these games.
     
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  17. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

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    The "it has soul" argument sounds a bit like a desperate last attempt to somewhat justify PD's incompetence over the last years. The man is in the business of making video games just like any other developer. What's different is that other developers feel the urge to innovate and truly make each new version of their game a improvement over the last (and i'm talking in general here not just about Dan and T10), but PD is just cashing in on their fame lately, reselling their fans the same game over and over again with a different number on it, and meanwhile laughing whilst those same fans all buy it and desperately try to defend it too :eek:

    If it were any other developer going down the drain like this with their franchise, people would have long dropped it but with PD a lot of fans keep on wanting to give them a last chance, followed by another last chance and another...
     
  18. UKMikey

    UKMikey

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    I think you all are being a little hard on Crispy who I don't think was trying to excuse GT's rough and readiness in certain aspects but rather offer a possible explanation for the two series' different approaches?

    Considering some of the unpredictable moves beginner level Forza Drivatars pull off those things have more soul than James Brown. Robot AI seems like Lady Gaga by comparison.
     
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  19. SlyNine

    SlyNine

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    So back to the question, what is it that these PC sims have squared away that Forza has not?? what features? I don't see weather squared away by no means in ANY sim (to hard to do accurately) and most of these games look awful compared to Forza 5. So how can night graphics be squared away?

    your comment
    Lead me to believe you thought I was going to pull a bait and switch.

    I like how you throw in attacks on people who consider Iracing or Rfactor the defacto racing sims today. That does not mean they haven't played all these other games you mentioned. Even if some new simracer asked the question "what have these PC sims squared away that Forza has not" how do you justify responding in the belittling way that you did? You are the one that made the claim, why so hostile when asked to backup what you said?

    Also I wouldn't call the lack of night racing a flaw. Just a missing feature. It is true that they keep avoiding that feature. It's not as important to everyone as it is to you tho.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
  20. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Same people that enjoy spaghetti Tuesdays every night.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
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  21. SlyNine

    SlyNine

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    If there was a proper qualification to your claim somewhere in that wall of text. I missed it.
     
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  22. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    What are you talking about? It makes no sense compared to what you quoted.
     
  23. eran0004

    eran0004

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    As much as I love night time and rain, I understand that it's not a top priority. If we think of priorities in game design as work contra value (the amount of work it takes, contra the amount of value it adds to the game), we can draw a simple diagram and calculate what the better priority would be (from a work vs. value perspective; you can look at it from other angles as well).

    If weather and night means a lot of work for a feature that would add a relatively small value to the game (point 1 in the diagram below), then time might be better spent on other areas, such as point 2 and 4, where value is about as much as the work, or - ideally - point 3, where the value is greater than the work.

    WORKVALUE.jpg
    How to calculate: Divide value by work: the greater the number - the better the strategy.

    (Sidetrack: One could also think of a feature as a line in the diagram rather than a single point (see below, three features plotted in the diagram), to see roughly how much time one should spend on a single feature. Everything can always be improved and polished, but at some point you reach a place where you add more work than what you gain in value. You might also need to spend some time on a feature before it starts to generate any value. Take rain effects for example, they could chose to make a quick'n'crappy rain model, which would take very little work, but the value it adds would probably be on the negative side of zero.)

    WORKVALUE2.jpg


    But of course, value is subjective. One feature might be more valuable for some, and less for others. So define your target audience and try to read their minds. Or conduct a survey.

    As a director, this is where you need to chose a path. Just because other games have added certain features, it doesn't mean that you would want to go down the same path by default.

    Can Turn 10 implement nighttime and rain if they wanted to? Probably.
    Would it be the best thing they could do? That's up to Dan & Co. to decide.

    And yeah, it would make more sense to flip the chart so the work axis is horizontal and value is vertical. Here's a quick fix: tilt your screen 90 degrees counter clockwise and look at it through a mirror.
     
  24. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    Nicely simplified. But every Tuesday the toppings vary. First it was plain, then with Parmesan, then bolognese. Sorry you and others don't like meatballs haven't been added. But I've been enjoying the pasta, toppings and sides over the years without them.

    Here the key
    Pasta=Cars, Tracks
    Topping=Physics & Gameplay
    Sides=Gamemodes
     
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  25. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Can't lie you have good food taste. Yeah and I'm sorry too, and I have done the same enjoying my issue with you and others is you don't seem to care for innovation rather being static works just fine.

    I understand where you're coming from but you obviously don't understand where many of others are coming from.
     
  26. UKMikey

    UKMikey

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    So you're saying the weather is cloudy with a chance of meatballs?
     
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  27. I'm Motarded

    I'm Motarded

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    After all this you still don't get my stance? I do care for innovation. Introducing "PC squared away" features with less fidelity and quality (as in headlights not casting shadows) is not innovation. Introducing features that bring something not only new to the game, but new to the features/table and quality never see before is innovation.

    Quite possibly :lol:
     
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  28. SlyNine

    SlyNine

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    If you recall, you quoted me at the start of that post.

    All I see is a hand at sophistry, trying to overcomplicate a simple question. You have not explained how those features were squared away. Just named a bunch of games and went on a somewhat irrelevant rant.

    plus I may have thought you were implying something when you said you're trying to bait me. Doesn't mean anything explicit was yet said. It means the line of argument could lead somewhere where that can happen.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
  29. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Once again when is the right time for them to do it? I think what they had was a good ground to work with and that was nearly 10 years ago as I've said, so what another ten years? The problem with your "well let them work on it and just wait game after game" is expectations are going to grow more and more as they have already and the hardware is going to keep changing and making the task harder at times. Why not implement a working system (which they had) and improve on it, that is how innovation usually works, the things on the drawing board aren't innovative if they never get put to use.

    Yes and you quoted what I said to Mister, either read what I wrote in regards to you, as I did for your post or just leave it. I'm not going to write out more because you don't want to read.
     
  30. SlyNine

    SlyNine

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    Not really used to people replying inside the quoted boxes.