Help me analyse a racing incident: Did I deserve a penalty?

[senzr]

I posted this in the Daily Race Discussion thread, but I've been thinking about it a lot and want to hear more detailed opinions about what I did/didn't do wrong, and when one should concede a corner.

Context:
I'm in the green car. Last lap nerves, I was trying to maintain 7th place on the last lap. 8th place was gaining on me fast, I tried to give him some room to pull up beside me, but didn't expect him to attempt to pass round the OUTSIDE of the left hander. There was contact twice, he went off the road, I got a 3-second penalty and finished 10th. He quit the race soon after he went off the road. Please note the telemetry. I was full-lock to the left at point of contact, and off throttle. I also feel he didn’t complete the pass cleanly before turning in on me. FYI, I am C/S, everyone in this race was A/S or B/S.

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm trying to learn to improve my race craft.

 

[eltorrente]

I think it was the overtakers fault. He went for the apex instead of staying wide. He wasn't fully past and squeezed you with no room.

I don't like the options you made for the poll, because it was fine to pass there as long as he stayed wide and waited a few seconds longer before trying to complete the pass.

 

[CallawaySS]

Hmm, hard to tell. Firstly, it is quite stupid to try to pass someone in this section. But then again, he carried more speed and you also gave him space, so maybe he took it as a chance to overtake you there. But.. It's still not a good place to overtake. On the other hand, you didn't expect him to overtake you there, but you could have slowed down as he was beginning to pass you. With that said, I would say both of you did a mistake.

 

[kilesa4568]

Racing incident for me. I saw one bit of contact (their rear wheel to your front) from someone trying to turn in a bit too early. It bounced them slightly wide (pinball physics exacerbated it) and while you left space, with their own worn tyres and having to correct their line with another car still close to them after the tap, they under steered off track.

Good defence by you and death by last lap misadventure for them. A good try but sadly they get no cigar.

I believe the last person to hit someone before they go off track automatically gets a penalty. Totally undeserved but that's just how the blind penalty system works.

Hindsight tells you that if you yield, you don't get a penalty and you have nearly a full last lap to try and retake the position but if they hadn't turned in early or over corrected, you wouldn't need hindsight at all.

 

[Lion-Face]

Bit of both. The attacker turned in leaving you little room. Although he didn't leave you no room, he should have been aware that you had under-steered in the last corner and therefore would likely do the same in the next.

The green car didn't slow entering the left hander. On the inside line off the racing line and with the attacker ahead by most of their car, the corner was lost, yet the green car kept fighting. Looking at the throttle input, I wonder had 8th place not been there would the green car have made the corner entering at that speed and with the lack of tires left.

I would say it is mostly the Green cars fault, although the attacker didn't help the situation. Both contributed to the accident. If I was to pick one, the green car was at fault.

 

[pantherjag]

Definitely a racing incident, just one of these things. You didn't deserve a penalty!!

Bottom line is we all get unjust penaltys but the way I see it iv probably benefited more from other peoples unjust penalties far more than iv suffered

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I'd say racing incident but deserved penalty. The green car was clearly struggling since it had 2 cars so close behind around that section where the dirty air should spread them out. The first contact is debatable depending on where the racing line is, I would aim further left to use the curb but it doesn't really matter because the green car understeered so much the car on the outside was always going to be ran off the road. Nothing malicious but a penalty nonetheless.

 

[VeeDoubleU]

You forced the other car off the track

 

[Woodybobs]

He turned in on you for the first contact but you've understeered into him for the second bump. I think you haven't reduced speed enough to give him space. Even if he didn't go off after the contact, you probably wouldn't have been able to leave a cars width entering the next corner.

Considering both of you have made mistakes resulting in contact it would be harsh of me to say you deserved a penalty. Penalties are usually awarded if a car goes off track as a result of contact, so, in GTS at least, the penalty you got is an expected one.

 

[serlemke]

that is not a place to overtake - he took a high risk.

 

[Pigems]

I’d have to say you didn’t leave him enough room after he got up beside you, you left less then a car width beside you for him to occupy, he had no choice but to either hit you or go off. Where you trying a no stop?

 

[VBR]

Please note the telemetry. I was full-lock to the left at point of contact, and off throttle. I also feel he didn’t complete the pass cleanly before turning in on me.

He was alongside you before any contact occurred, in fact, he was in front of you before the turn in point, so he had what would be considered sufficient overlap & the rights to the corner were therefore his. Also, you were only completely off the throttle for a split second, & that isn't really relevant either. I accept that you didn't intend to push him off, & I do not consider you a dirty driver at all. However, you need to give other drivers more room if they have managed to get alongside you. Easier said than done in cars that fast, on a track that narrow, & when last lap fever is kicking in!

Check out The Good Racecraft Guide, & Going Faster: Mastering The Art of Race Driving.


👍

 

[Famine]

Did I deserve a penalty?

It's hard to say, as you've not recorded the live game, only a replay, so we can't see where (or if) the penalty occurred.

However, if the game gave you a penalty then yes - as ultimately the game is the only arbiter of what deserves a penalty.

 

[baldgye]

As this is Sport Mode, you got the penalty and there isn't anything you could have done.

But if this was a league race, I'd say it was a racing incident. First contact he turned into the side of you, not much you could have really done. Second contact was you forcing him onto the marbles which ultimately I think forced him off track.
Really you should probably have left him room, but the fact you put the squeeze on meant he either had go for it or back off.

All in all a racing incident

 

[JamboGT]

It looks like you made a mistake in the previous corner and he was well past, then you didn't leave a cars width on the right hand side so it's on you.

In regards to conceding the position as it was your mistake that let him get alongside/past, you should have let him go instead of fighting it.

 

[Vegard]

He made the initial unavoidable contact which resulted in more contact which resulted in him going off.
He deserves a small penalty for that initial contact, you should not have received a penalty.

That paintjob does deserve a penalty though

 

[8l23ub]

In hindsight, you had plenty of track space on your left so you could say the incident could have been avoided, so I would have to surprised if you didn't receive a penalty, the other guy went for a move that was risky in that it required your co-operation (basically give up racing) and paid the price for his impatience by ending up in the gravel.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Hmm, hard to tell. Firstly, it is quite stupid to try to pass someone in this section. But then again, he carried more speed and you also gave him space, so maybe he took it as a chance to overtake you there. But.. It's still not a good place to overtake. On the other hand, you didn't expect him to overtake you there, but you could have slowed down as he was beginning to pass you. With that said, I would say both of you did a mistake.

This.

Technically you ran wide and did not hug the apex as you should when the inside man in side by side racing, you effectively ran him wide. But a silly place to pass imho.

Racing incident, no penalties for mine.

 

[kilesa4568]

I converted the video so I could run it through SMPlayer at .1 speed. YT's .25 speed isn't slow enough.

The best angle to look at it is between 41 to 43 seconds but please slow it down enough to see properly.

The first tap is obvious as they turn in early but where people are saying two taps happened are just plain wrong. It was a line correction. There was a foot of space between the two cars and the correction put them onto the marbles of their own volition. There was still space on the outside but they under steered off when they hit the marbles. Sure, it was a slight squeeze but there was definitely a marble strewn gap left open to them. As the car drifted off track, senzr still tried to leave room but took the line when the other car had all four wheels off the track. See-ya.

Also watching senzr's throttle inputs, they backed off to avoid hitting the other car when they drew alongside. As they should. They're both on worn front tyres and prone to under steer. The initial tap compromised the passing car's line and drew them closer together so the position became a 50-50 and fair game again. Especially through the Esses where you're on/off/on/off the throttle.

I can't fault either of them for trying and doubt there's a race steward out there who'd pin blame on either person. Totally a racing incident.

 

[Majorwolf72]

Looks like the proverbial two rocket scientists to me... whenever I see that degree of race craft in front of me between two opponents, I patiently wait for at least one of them to crash out. Most of the time both do...

Yeah, racing incident caused by lack of race craft from both drivers.

 

[vvise]

you didn't leave enough room but mistakes happen in amateur video game racing.

 

[Groundfish]

I voted penalty green car. The pedal was to the metal with no hope of staying in lane even on new tires.
Yes, the green car went off throttle but WAY too late.
Green car do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars.
That said both drivers were partially responsible, but none of us know what happened prior. Green car admitted that a car was gaining fast.
Best bet in this instance was concede the position and battle on. People never want to accept overtakes, but often it’s the FASTEST thing to do.
If I got a guy gaining quick, and all of a sudden he’s alongside and I didn’t see it coming, I slow! If someone is faster than you by a lot, it’s best to concede, and try to follow. Often letting a person by smoothly allows you to get more space from others also behind you.
Good racers love to see two cars ahead battling because they know they are gaining time.
That’s my take, and thanks for posting.

As an aside, I highly recommend reading ultimate speed secrets by Ross Bentley if you care about racing online or otherwise.
There is a section on etiquette, and it is excellent.
One thing he says and I agree with is when a car deserves to have the door slammed shut on them. It was not the right thing to do to use the whole track in this instanc, and tbh I am glad the green car was penalized. It seems to me many folks have different ideas what constitutes a breach of etiquette, but if read the book it’s very clear, online is just he said she said, online on a game forum can be he said she said. I recommend defaulting to what The Godfather of racing instruction irl preaches.
So many people complain about penalties, but I feel they should study info on real racing and apply it to their gaming. The game becomes a lot more fun if you do.

All that said, those cars are quick and it can be easy to make mistakes. Stuff happens. I do believe though that the green car was absolutely in the wrong above.

 

[Gamrac]

you are ok. It is nonsense to tell you to be careful what other people do. You don't have to let him overtake you in this situation. He is wrong but you are wrong too because you don't understand that he is wrong. It is just a game, stop pretending to be experts, if you think you are, go and race for real not on PS4

 

[kilesa4568]

Initial contact:

What people wrongly say is the 2nd contact. Take note of the throttle:

Now the line correction that puts the outside car onto the edge of the marbles. Look at the green car's steering, throttle and track position.

1 second later, the dramatic twist. Passing car already has a wheel on the grass and the rest on marbles. Uh Oh...

...and 5 frames after that, the car trying to pass starts to lose speed from half of their car on the grass. Green car centre of the track:

3 frames later:

Here's the converted video (35mb) for close scrutiny with your chosen media player: https://www.mediafire.com/file/accg...ula_penalty_suzuka_ZFWs-Qfhtz8_1080p.mp4/file

I used smplayer and went frame by frame. (Press .)

The passing car put the noose around their own neck when they turned in early and the line correction that put them on the marbles kicked the chair away.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Here's the converted video (35mb) for close scrutiny with your chosen media player: https://www.mediafire.com/file/accg...ula_penalty_suzuka_ZFWs-Qfhtz8_1080p.mp4/file

I used smplayer and went frame by frame. (Press .)

The passing car put the noose around their own neck when they turned in early and the line correction that put them on the marbles kicked the chair away.

This is potentially off-topic/already known, you can also go frame by frame on YouTube with "," (backwards) and "." (forwards) as well as changing the speed down to 0.25.

 

[kilesa4568]

I never knew about the frame advance so thanks a lot for that. Very handy for times like this.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

The problem with analyzing a replay frame by frame is that you are watching the action after lag has had its effect. You need the replay from the other driver as well to come to any definite conclusion.

I've had many instances where I showed another driver where they hit me resulting in getting bumped off the track, after which they showed me their side where there was still a foot of space between the cars and never hit me. The faster the cars, the more, even tiny, lag will affect contacts. Hence why I'm not a fan of rubbing is racing. rubbing + lag = punt.

 

[VBR]

I've had many instances where I showed another driver where they hit me resulting in getting bumped off the track, after which they showed me their side where there was still a foot of space between the cars and never hit me.

Good point. There is also some bad contact detection in GT Sport. The 96 Evo, for instance, registers contact between cars even when they are a foot or so apart.

 

[senzr]

Thanks all for your thoughts! Special thanks to @kilesa4568 for such a thorough frame-by-frame analysis. Much appreciated! And thanks @VBR for “The Good Racecraft Guide” (I already have the “Going Faster” book, love it!).


The poll clearly shows most of y’all feel it was my fault. And that’s expected, because it really looks like I was running him off on purpose. When I posted this in the GT Sport FB group, the mob came for my head with their pitchforks!


In the short straight before the left-hander, I saw him approaching, and gave him room to pull alongside. But that also put me out of position to approach the apex on the next left-hander (outside in). When approaching the left-hander, I was off-throttle primarily to slow down for the apex, and I was in bumper cam, so I didn’t realize he’d attempt a pass right then. I also took my eye off the radar for that split second to aim for the apex, and in the heat of the moment, I didn’t realize he’d gone off till I got the 3-second penalty. He didn’t fully complete the pass, so by the time I realized he hit me, it was too late.


In future, I’ll try to leave more room and concede to the faster car when the corner is lost, and there’s sufficient overlap, giving the attacker corner rights. I still think that was a terrible place to attempt a pass, though! I would’ve happily conceded in the upcoming sector since he was faster.


I’m usually pretty self-conscious and try to race as cleanly as possible. I hate dirty driving as much as you clean racers do. I’ve even willingly given back positions to cars I’ve accidentally bumped off in Sport Mode due to over-optimistic late braking, with apologies in the post-race chat. But I’m also guilty of the bad behaviour we despise on occasion, due to nerves and losing my cool.


Anyhow, I’ve learned a lot from this incident, thanks to the thoughtful discussion on this forum. Sport Mode and the penalty system have their flaws. But I still love the rush I get from this game, and playing out my racing driver fantasies. And it’s awesome that we have a place for thoughtful discussion on something we all love. Thank you, GT Planet!


PS: I’m keeping the paint job! And if you haven’t already, check out “Formula 1: Drive To Survive” on Netflix. Being a racing driver is the first job I’ve ever wanted to have since I was a kid, but lack of talent and opportunity got in the way. That show is the closest I ever got to see what it’s like in the life of an F1 driver. Oh well...maybe I’ll save up, be a Gentleman Driver and pay for a race some day...

 

[kilesa4568]

The problem with analyzing a replay frame by frame is that you are watching the action after lag has had its effect. You need the replay from the other driver as well to come to any definite conclusion.

The other driver's view was conspicuously absent but I'm not going to speculate on what I can't see, lag included.

The speed the incident happened forced me to slow it right down (my old eyes need help) but what I saw was nowhere near as damning as others have said. It got my hackles up a bit.

@senzr My pleasure.👍

By the way, I actually like the colour but I'm colour blind and thought it was yellow.