Help Me Plan My Car Life (new car search @post 290)

[Keef]

- Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart Sportback: It does 90% of what the Evolution X does performance wise, is a bit cheaper, and fits your stuff in the back. The SST gearbox is supposed to be pretty good, I think. Not sure about reliability though....

The WRX is such a better car than the Ralliart that its lack of an automatic becomes trivial. Also Ralliart is out of business.

 

[Kylehnat]

I'm not so keen on the 370Z. One guy blew his motor autocrossing it a few weekends ago.

I can attest from about twenty 1/4 mile runs that it is easy to "upshift" from 3rd to 2nd when you're rushing for every tenth (you almost have to aim for 6th when you want 4th). I've done it twice, and both times, it registered in my brain quickly enough to keep the clutch pedal in. If not, that engine's going to be turning 9,000+, and it won't like it. So far, I've had no problems with mine (12,000 miles). If it only ever sees the street, it should be bulletproof. The track, dragstrip, and autoX will beg any car to break.

 

[Keef]

I can attest from about twenty 1/4 mile runs that it is easy to "upshift" from 3rd to 2nd when you're rushing for every tenth (you almost have to aim for 6th when you want 4th). I've done it twice, and both times, it registered in my brain quickly enough to keep the clutch pedal in. If not, that engine's going to be turning 9,000+, and it won't like it. So far, I've had no problems with mine (12,000 miles). If it only ever sees the street, it should be bulletproof. The track, dragstrip, and autoX will beg any car to break.

That'll do that lol. The rev limiter works by cutting fuel or spark, but when the throttle is closed there's no power to be cut and the engine just goes soaring. Any manual will do that in any car.

 

[Eric.]

I don't know the specifics of what happened, I wasn't at that one. However at autocross speeds, I'd kinda doubt an overrev is going to happen.


Anyway, I think new 6spd V6 Mustang for your commuter (wow, I just recommended a V6 Mustang to someone...) and something like the C6 Corvette,

Screw that. Daily commuter: G8 GT. Then get a Corvette, Porsche, NSX, whatever is really going to make you happy (I think we can only make suggestions for what to look for, you have to fulfill that spot yourself) for your sportscar. Heck, for the price of C5 Vettes you could about get one of them and then a first gen NSX!

I think a Vette would be too similar to the G8 to pick it, honestly. I'd like to say a 930 911, but that's going to depend how much comfort you're looking for. My friend's '76 is far from comfortable.

 

[McLaren]

I'd definitely go with an NSX primarily because they are still available low mileage and they have depreciated to the point of almost being affordable. However, living with one on a daily basis would get old. So on your list Option 3 is the best route to take, buy the NSX and another commuter. For the cheap daily commuter you can get a 2004-2005 Nissan Maxima SE, great reliable fast saloon car with plenty of space. And the bonus is they are relatively inexpensive used. For what a TSX costs the you can get a faster car with more space for people and luggage. I really like the first gen TSX, but it cannot really compete with the Maxima on most categories except on gas mileage. lol

Otherwise just buy the NSX and keep it for 30 years.

*edit*
+1 on the Ford Fusion Brad mentioned as well.

How so? That V6 being a Honda will make it easy to work on, good gas, & easy to commute with. The ride is the only thing that may be harsh.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I myself like the idea of the Audi TT, but I think after a few test drives things will become a bit clearer.

 

[Duke]

There are several questions here.

- Whether I can find a car that does everything (I suspect not).
- Whether I should drive the sports car everywhere (I suspect not)
- If I get two cars, what kind of commuter makes the most sense
- If I get two cars, do I get what I really want to drive? or do I get an NSX and view it as an investment.

Here's my 2 cents, speaking as a guy who currently owns 5 cars and will soon be buying a 6th:

Cars are tools. If you are serious, you want the right tool for the job. I definitely urge you away from the "universal" car because while it may have the cheapest buy-in it is the least satisfying route.

My wife and I own 2 daily driver sedans - 325i and TSX. I enjoy driving a 3-pedal manual so the BMW is a stick and her TSX is an automatic (incidentally, one of the nicest I have ever driven). Neither are sports cars but both are athletic enough to be entertaining and deal with the daily cut-and-thrust work well. Both deliver in the mid-20s for gas mileage. With maintenance both will last towards 200,000 miles.

We also have a 10-year-old minivan that cost little to buy, nothing to maintain, and hauls a boatload of crap anytime we need it to. It will likely last the rest of our lives performing its infrequent duty whenever needed.

We have a 2002 Impreza wagon, which is a good utilitarian car for my 18-year-old daughter. Rugged, reliable, holds a bunch of stuff, and is a decent drive.

Lastly we have the weekend car, my old '67 Pontiac LeMans convertible - a good weather boulevard cruiser. This hasn't been driven much lately because I'm no longer really interested in cruise nights and car shows, and it will probably get mothballed in the near future.

I have been autocrossing my 325i for the last 3 or 4 years because it is all I had that was remotely up to it, but the 3er will never be competitive even in stock class. So instead of spending a lot of money on it and having it still be a compromise solution, I'm most likely buying a dedicated sports/competition car in the near future. The 3 will last another 10 years as a DD if I need it to, and if something happens to it, I'll get a similar used car that's meant to be used.

I don't know what to advise you on the NSX. That depends mostly on what you want out of your toys. Cars are depreciating liabilities. The best way to protect your investment is to pick a great driver's car and then keep it in the garage and never drive it. If you have a lot of mint-in-box original Star Wars action figures in a closet waiting for the optimal time to sell them on eBay, then that may be the right route. For my toy, I'm buying something simple and cheap with good performance that I can flog the living crap out of and not cry blood about if I thump the tire wall on a track day. If you love the way the NSX drives, then buy one and drive it and don't look at it as an investment.

 

[TheCracker]

Over the next 20 years, there's a decent chance the NSX will appreciate substantially. So it might be worth a lot of money. It would change the way I'd own the car - basically I'd get less enjoyment out of it but possibly a financial return.

I'd be surprised if any car they've made over 19,000 examples of would ever appreciate in value over what they're worth now. The NSX has kept a decent resale value up until this point, in the UK at least where they're incredibly rare, but i can't see that buying a used one at this moment in time would have any long-term investment potential. You may well not loose any money on one, but as a 20 year investment with 20 years inflation figured in it would end up as a real time loss.

 

[niky]

The NSX is only an investment if, as Duke suggests, you shrink wrap it and keep it locked away in the garage. It might depreciate far less than other sports cars of the time, but it won't be worth as much as others.

-

Personal opinion on DSGs: Meh. Fun toy, but not necessary for a daily driver. A lot of newer cars come with 5-speed or 6-speed automatics that work just as well. A slight delay in shifting isn't really something that grates when you're stuck in traffic. While yes, it's the best there is, it wouldn't be my primary consideration for buying.

-

Dual clutch, fun to drive... daily commuter? Mitsubishi Evo TC-SST? (not very comfortable, terrible plastics... woeful residuals... but hey... it does everything... just not very well)

 

[homeforsummer]

I've actually driven almost none of these cars. The Cayman, TTS, and NSX are foreign to me. I've never even been in a Porsche.

I've driven the TTS actually. This one, in fact:

Did one of those arrive and drive trackdays at the Dubai Autodrome last time I was over there, and the car was a DSG-equipped TTS.

Was a nice car to drive. Very quick, but then the quickest thing I'd driven previously had about 100bhp less so it's hard to judge impartially. The DSG was excellent though, very quick and smooth.

Sounded good for a four-pot (and DSGs give a great little parp from the exhaust when they change gear) and the interior was fantastic. Great seats, ridiculously high quality interior. Nice driving position too.

Definitely have a drive in one anyway.

 

[Danoff]

If I were to go with the 2-car scenario (which I have to say, I'm heavily leaning toward) - the sports car would likely get somewhere between 1,000 and 3,000 miles on it per year. I figure that'll last me 20-30 years no problem.

The NSX that I can afford (I'm thinking ~30-40k for the sports car and ~20k for the commuter), would be an early 90's model. So we're talking about a 40-50 year old car when I'm done with it. I can see a well-kept, stock, 40-50 year old NSX going for upwards of $100k. If I get lucky, it may even start to approach the $500k mark. If it did start to appreciate dramatically I'd stop driving it, shrinkwrap it, and buy something else. If not, I'd just drive the snot out of it and consider myself lucky to have owned one.

Here's the kicker. My wife is not likely to let me own 2 dedicated sports cars anytime soon. I basically get one shot at this (or have to admit defeat, sell, and soak up the transaction costs). I consider myself a driving enthusiast, not a collector. I'm not into high speeds so much as lateral g's. I love cars that handle well, and live nearby to a very technical, low-speed, hairpin 16-mile stretch of road with no cops and no traffic. I can see myself there a lot. But even if I ran that road forward and backward once a week, I'd still only rack up 3000 miles a year (including getting to the road and getting back). And I can't see myself doing it nearly that often on average (sometimes twice a week, sometimes none in a month).

My problem with the stick (and I've driven a lot of them), is that I'm a total 100% perfectionist when it comes to driving and it's damned near impossible to achieve that with a manual. I don't enjoy the challenge of constantly trying to achieve that perfect heel-toe shift, even when I get it right. It bothers me every time I get it wrong.

"1000 rpm too high"
"1000 rpm too low"
"got that one, thank god"
"dammit! 2000 rpm too high"

Bugs me to no end and detracts from my driving experience and I'll only be worse if I'm not driving it all the time. What I want is a pure high-performance, me and the machine, driving experience. I don't need a big engine (though I need something decent), but I need something that handles really well. The rev-matching 370Z would be an obvious compromise against the DSG - so I guess that has to make the list, even though I'm less enthused about that.

So on the one hand, I have what I think might be the perfect car for me (DSG Cayman), vs. a compromise that could make me some cash (NSX). It's a personal decision I know - you guys can't help me much with whether I'm willing to trade off my driving experience for (potential) money. I'll have to come to terms on that one myself. I'm basically just looking for other angles, other cars I should consider, other issues that I haven't thought about (like NSX maintenance vs. Cayman maintenance) etc. etc.

I had, for a long time, always thought that the big sports car purchase would be a C6, hands down, no contest. But the DSG came along and I fell in love. Now it's tougher for me to go that route.

 

[Keef]

You'd have to ask around about maintenance costs. I imagine Porsche regular maintenance is high, but it'll be few and far between. I can also assure you that NSX costs will make you spit out your coffee - it is a very expensive, very low production car. Really, any car like this is going to be pricey when you replace the tires or change the water pump. I'd go as far to put an NSX is the top spot for cars you're considering, though.

I guess the next step is to go find examples of these cars to test drive as you wait for more suggestions. I've got a feeling you'll be astonished by the 370's rev-matching and attracted by it's low price, though.

Personal note, if someone offered me the choice between a Cayman, any Cayman, and an NSX, I wouldn't even have known it because I'd already be driving my NSX into the sunset before they finished their sentence.

 

[Danoff]

I guess the next step is to go find examples of these cars to test drive as you wait for more suggestions.

Easier said than done. It's not like I can waltz down to the dealership and tell them to put me in an NSX for a test drive.

Personal note, if someone offered me the choice between a Cayman, any Cayman, and an NSX, I wouldn't even have known it because I'd already be driving my NSX into the sunset before they finished their sentence.

Why?

The Cayman S puts up better 0-60 numbers and similar skidpad numbers. Is it the mid-engine layout? I don't plan on doing a whole lot of sideways driving.

Edit: When you think about it, every Cayman on the road represents someone who chose that car over an NSX. Same goes for lots of other cars - including a new 370Z.

 

[niky]

Numbers =/= Driving Experience.

 

[Danoff]

Numbers =/= Driving Experience.

Granted. I don't think it's an unanswerable question. I wonder if Keef has driven either car though.

 

[Duke]

The Cayman is mid-engine, too.

Honestly, I know someone you trust is advising you to bank on the NSX, but I think cars are meant to be driven, not hoarded as a precious commodity. I'd buy the car that you most enjoy driving, and use it for its intended purpose.

 

[Danoff]

Huh, always thought Cayman were front engine.

Honestly, I know someone you trust is advising you to bank on the NSX, but I think cars are meant to be driven, not hoarded as a precious commodity.

Try telling that to this guy. He has a friggin' museum of cars including a Gullwing (which he has offered to let me drive - an offer I will never take him up on). I tend to agree with you, but I also see the potential and it's hard to ignore.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Huh, always thought Cayman were front engine.

Nope

 

[niky]

Granted. I don't think it's an unanswerable question. I wonder if Keef has driven either car though.

Having driven neither... but having heard a lot about each, I've been given to believe that the NSX is the more organic feeling of the two. Mind you... if you've driven a newer sportscar hard at anytime in the recent past, it might feel a bit underwhelming... the steering won't be as sharp, the reflexes won't be as immediate, and the overall performance would probably no longer be at the sharper end of the scale... but the feeling of being on top of it all would probably be worth it.

Older sportscars tend to give you very honest feedback regarding what's happening on the road. Newer ones isolate you from it (this was my biggest pet peeve with the pre-facelift NC MX-5). A Cayman is a very sharp tool, but it's been slighted for feeling slightly clinical. In other words, you point it, it goes, end of story. No two-way conversation regarding the fine points of Italian wine and the condition of the roadway (dry and with a hint of fruitiness). And obviously, it's got much higher limits, so you'll be understeering more often than the reverse. Which is good from a safety point of view, I guess, but is a bit of a joy-kill. There are those who love it, though... and if you know what you're doing... you can slide a Cayman... but you obviously don't want to do it on a public road.

But what we, or other people, feel or think about the car doesn't matter one whit compared to how the car feels in your hands. Whether it's completely feasible or not, a test-drive is a must. Who knows? You might actually end up with that Audi TT instead of the Cayman... or something completely different, like the also-suggested M3.

 

[Danoff]

Agreed, a test drive is certainly in order (if I get that serious about the NSX).

Think of this thread more from the point of view of general strategy than a particular car. The examples given are to flesh out the general concept. I think I need to address the strategy first.

- Do I get one car to commute and for pleasure driving or two?
- If I get two cars, do I get the sports car for pure driving pleasure, or do I lend an eye toward the future given how long I'd be owning it.

 

[Tornado]

Get an automatic NSX for commuting, and a manual NSX for fun things!

 

[Duke]

- Do I get one car to commute and [one] for pleasure driving or two?
- If I get two cars, do I get the sports car for pure driving pleasure, or do I lend an eye toward the future given how long I'd be owning it.

In case I haven't been clear enough, this is my recommendation.

 

[Keef]

Easier said than done. It's not like I can waltz down to the dealership and tell them to put me in an NSX for a test drive.

But you can do that with any new consideration, like the Cayman and 370.

Why?

The Cayman S puts up better 0-60 numbers and similar skidpad numbers. Is it the mid-engine layout? I don't plan on doing a whole lot of sideways driving.

Edit: When you think about it, every Cayman on the road represents someone who chose that car over an NSX. Same goes for lots of other cars - including a new 370Z.

A Cayman is probably a better performing car in every aspect, however slight. But the NSX did it 20 years ago and is way cooler. I'd have a tough time being seen in a Cayman, really. New-Porsche stigma of mine. If you're an eye doctor you might consider a Porsche (a silver, non-traditional mid-engined, automatic equipped one at that) as your sports car. Otherwise, something actually cool. If you're going to keep it forever you might as well get something that will satisfy your inevitable mid-life crisis.

EDIT: No, I haven't driven either car, I'm just a Honda fanboy lol.

 

[Duke]

Hrmm, I know a number of people with newer Porsches who drive the wheels off of them, including a gent of approximately 75 and his wife who showed up to our last autocross in a manual-trans Boxster S that looked like it gets driven damn near every day. It was their first autocross event but they had magnetic numbers for it so I can only assume they are track day vets.

 

[Keef]

Like I said, stigma. I nearly retracted my statement completely when I saw this...

It's a serious car, and I'd love to have one. I'd just love an NSX more.

Anyway, Danoff, about your strategy. If you're comfortable paying for it then a two-car strategy is ideal. Like Duke mentioned you've got to have the right tool for the job and it's virtually impossible to find a car just as capable at shuttling you to and from work in quiet comfort as it is taking your wife out for a laugh through the canyons. This strategy would allow you to get two very different cars that are exceptional at their specific tasks. For instance, while you may ask for a G35 to get you to work you could save a good chunk of money by getting, or keeping, an Accord instead. That's more money for a sports car.

 

[Danoff]

Only problem with keeping the accord is that it's woefully underpowered and I have on my commute an uphill on-ramp at the top of which I have to merge with traffic going 75mph. This is no small task in an accord. Especially when I'm stuck behind someone with an extremely powerful car who wakes up 5 seconds before he merges and accelerates 30 mph to merge leaving me with no options.

The accord is ALMOST perfect as a commuter, but it could use a few things. Tinted windows for one, and an extra 50-75 hp for another. I hate that if I get stuck behind a truck on the freeway I can't get out of the lane because the car can't accelerate enough to merge.

 

[YSSMAN]

That'll get the job done. The four-cylinder puts down a lot of power, the six-speed gearbox is no slouch. Autoblog did an excellent review of the Fusion SE 6MT last year, and it still holds up pretty well. Dealers around here have them on the lot for a shade over $20K, and with a little bit of work, you could easily walk out with a helluva deal.

 

[Kylehnat]

the sports car would likely get somewhere between 1,000 and 3,000 miles on it per year. I figure that'll last me 20-30 years no problem.

No, there is a problem--you'll want to drive it more than that .

The rev-matching 370Z would be an obvious compromise against the DSG - so I guess that has to make the list, even though I'm less enthused about that.

Synchro-Rev is not as useful as it seems. For normal driving, it's nothing more than a gimmick. It also has a quirk where if you hold the clutch in for more than a couple seconds, it blips the throttle anyway, even if you don't select another gear. If you're a perfectionist, that would drive you insane . I only ever turn on S-R to show someone how it works. I haven't driven the paddle-shift version of the 370Z, but it must be an okay autobox, since it has slightly quicker acceleration numbers. Might be worth a test drive .

 

[mustangGT90210]

That'll get the job done. The four-cylinder puts down a lot of power, the six-speed gearbox is no slouch. Autoblog did an excellent review of the Fusion SE 6MT last year, and it still holds up pretty well. Dealers around here have them on the lot for a shade over $20K, and with a little bit of work, you could easily walk out with a helluva deal.

If that's the same 6 speed auto they mate to the 2.5L Escape, god save your soul, it's terrible. My 20 year old pickup truck has faster response times coming out of a corner and putting power down. In the Escape, you hit the gas and wait a second for it to pick a suitable gear, then it goes. It really pisses me off.

And if the fusion and escape don't share a trans, please, disregard this completely

 

[Danoff]

I haven't driven the paddle-shift version of the 370Z, but it must be an okay autobox, since it has slightly quicker acceleration numbers. Might be worth a test drive .

You prompted me to go read another article about it.

I had ruled this out as too much of a compromise after reading about it a while back. But now I can't help but wonder if that wasn't too hasty a conclusion. It certainly merits a test drive. I've driven the 350Z and very much enjoyed it. I think the best chance for this, though, is as a one-car solution. I very much doubt that I'd be satisfied enough with the 370Z auto to own it for decades. I think I'd find myself pining for something a notch above (and yet, forever ruined by the ridiculous acceleration that thing produces).

The 370Z auto may now have to sit at the top of my one-car column. I think it will make a good comparison point when looking at the price difference between a two-car and one-car solution.