Highcroft's Deltawing *Update: granted ALMS 2013 full entry! *

[Stavelot]

It will only run demonstration laps at Sebring, no that's not me being negative about the car that is me saying it will only run dmonstration laps because all 64 possible grid spots will be filled with full time WEC and ALMS entries....

 

[prisonermonkeys]

it's a ton of lies (where's the innovation?)

Uh, how about the entire design, for instance?

It has no place on the grid and that is my opinion.

Only if the grid if dictated by decisions in the boardroom. Which you have stated is your belief in the past.

 

[Stavelot]

Wow, the design is the only thing that can be brought up? Shame that, maybe if it really had something truly innovative not seen in any form of racing before I might like it, but seeing as it's just a combination of principals used already in the past it's only partytrick is the design which is still meh at best.

And no, I'm not saying this is a boardroom decision (privateers have no boardroom so take that argument and give it the boot) but it has no place on the grid because it doesn't live up to the Garage 56 philosophy like the Courage per se does and it's not a sportscar....

 

[Tired Tyres]

Wow, the design is the only thing that can be brought up? Shame that, maybe if it really had something truly innovative not seen in any form of racing before I might like it, but seeing as it's just a combination of principals used already in the past it's only partytrick is the design which is still meh at best.

And no, I'm not saying this is a boardroom decision (privateers have no boardroom so take that argument and give it the boot) but it has no place on the grid because it doesn't live up to the Garage 56 philosophy like the Courage per se does and it's not a sportscar....

It has a place on the grid because the Le Mans 24 hours race is an invitational and the ACU can invite any team they like to take part in it.

Your total negativity about this car is ridiculous. Give it a chance to show what it can do. Then say what you think about it.

 

[Hun200kmh]

The original goal behind it was to do something different for the sake of being different. Doesn't come across like sound engineering principle to me.

I think you (and Stavelot, although he's more of a hater of the thing than about its merits) are missing the requirements set to the DW project. Compared to an LMP1 car it must be:

Half the weight, half the aerodynamic drag, half the power, half the fuel burned.

But full on LMP1 pace.

You try to design something that meets this, and then tell me you didn't need to have a "sound engineering" work behind it.

As I said before, I have trouble believing it will work. I even fear Stavelot's greatest desire (a miserable and immediate FAIL) may become true. However, if it does work ... it will be nothing short of mind-blowing.

PS - Found another nice old article that says what I pretty much think about this project:

http://hooniverse.com/2011/10/13/deltawing-project-garage-56/

 

[Stavelot]

They were actually aiming for LMP2 pace and should have stuck with that line instead of chasing P1....

 

[TheCracker]

I think you are missing the requirements set to the DW project. Compared to an LMP1 car it must be:

Half the weight, half the aerodynamic drag, half the power, half the fuel burned.

But full on LMP1 pace.

You try to design something that meets this, and then tell me you didn't need to have a "sound engineering" work behind it.

But, like i said, the original requirements were for an oval racer where speeds and corners are pretty much a constant and where the other cars competing would have a similar aerodynamic template. The Delta Wing is an innovative concept working within those requirements.

Take the same concept and apply it to a very different form of racing and it begins to scream of jamming a triangular peg into a square hole. But, only time will tell.

 

[Hun200kmh]

One thing I know ... they are WAY behind the initial schedule. Supposedly the car should have its first real test runs before the end of the year.

In reality, because the entire car's architecture is totally different than anything made before it, we have been given news about the specific pieces of the car that have now been designed, approved and have an official supplier. Parts like gearbox, transmission, suspension,brakes, tyres (the latest). So the latest info is that the full model, with all parts assembled, will be built and placed in the wind tunnel. What?

Anyway, no test run in 2011.


One other thing mentioned when it was revealed that the DW won the "Garage 56" slot was about the car entering one or two races before the LM 24, in order to assess its competitiveness in shorter distances.

There's no word about it now. And frankly, there's no time either. And that is worrying, because should the ACO find that the DW is in no condition to use the 56th slot, then the reserves will be called instead.

I think this old piece says it all:

THREE CARS IN LINE FOR FOR 56TH PIT — While today’s announcement of Project 56, the DeltaWing project to be run by Highcroft Racing, has a confirmed entry to next year’s 24 Hours of Le Mans, the ACO has selected two reserve entrants for the 56th pit should the program not meet the expectations of the organizers.

GreenGT’s LMP H2 car, a hydrogen-powered prototype, as well as Yves Courage’s all-electric prototype sit as the second and third reserves, respectively. ACO Sporting Director Vincent Beaumesnil confirmed they will only accept a serious program and will carefully monitor each team’s progress in the run up to next year’s 24-hour classic.

“I think it would be good to see the car at other races before Le Mans so we can evaluate,” Beaumesnil said. “We don’t want to select one car and then have it only do one lap and then finish. We would lose one entry at Le Mans where we could have had a different team instead. If we do it, we want the car to run seriously the entire race.”

The good news for Highcroft’s program is that there is ambitions of running the DeltaWing in select American Le Mans Series races next year, unclassified, much as the Porsche 911 GT3-R Hybrid did at last year’s Petit Le Mans.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Marino Franchitti designated driver for the DeltaWing!
(notice the symbol on the helmet)

Marino Franchitti selected as first DeltaWing pilot
Scottish sportscar ace Marino Franchitti has been selected as the first driver for the unique DeltaWing program that will debut at this year’s 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Franchitti’s name was revealed today at the Automobile Club de l’Ouest (ACO) press conference that announced the entries for this year’s twice round-the-clock endurance classic.

More details including Marino’s throughts on the car to be posted soon…. Stay tuned!

 

[sumbrownkid]

It's so stupid why one car gets so much hate when there are 55 other cars they can watch.

 

[F1 fan]

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing it run at le mans. The whole concept astounds me and I have a fear that something bad will happen, but I'm not writing it off yet.

We will only know when we see it in action.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Sorry if this is a little off-topic but here are the two 56th entry reserves:
GreenGT LMP-H2

Courage 0.12

 

[Hun200kmh]

Not off topic no, this thread is mostly about the DeltaWing but of course the whole 56 garage concept is on-topic here! 👍

The 1st reserve is much more ambitious than the second - technologically speaking - but the second is the one with more viability to be built and to run (TOYOTA already made a full electric barchetta - Radical chassis IIRC - race around the Nordschleife).

However, I don't think a 100% electric car is a green car. Electric recovery systems are ok, but batteries and electricity from the power grid ... meh.

 

[JJ72]

dont understand all the hate against this car, it is the most innovative thing to come out in the last decade!

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

However, I don't think a 100% electric car is a green car.

Especially since they won't wait 10 hours in the pits for it to charge again, they'll just throw the batteries out. We'll see how good the hybrids are with Audi running 2 hybrid R18s and 2 regular R18s, will be interesting to see which comes out on top.

 

[Snaeper]

dont understand all the hate against this car, it is the most innovative thing to come out in the last decade!

People hate what they do not understand. Fear of the unknown.

This car is a whole bunch of unknown, so the reactions are initially negative. I, on the other hand, cannot wait to see this car do well. I would love to see the DeltaWing get it's own racing series, even if it's only 6-7 events!

They could do one of each:
Oval racing x2 (Do at least two ovals to justify oval-specific equipment)
Street course racing
Circuit Race (Day)
Circuit Race (Night)
Endurance Race x2 (Justify endurance-specific equipment)

And maybe even take the whole series to Pikes Peak!

But first it has to prove itself at Le Mans.

 

[Stavelot]

It's not the most innovative thing to race at Le Mans in the last decade.....

And no, I fully understand the concepts behind this car so you can't give me that 'hate what you don't understand' line. It's not a sportscar, has nothing innovative and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near Le Mans.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I don't really care about what you think of this car, but considering it is built around an approved LMP tube, a modern sports car prototype by excellence (meaning, NOT EVEN REMOTELY RELATED with a road car), I find it laughable that the fact it uses skinny front tyres and has a revolutionary approach to the aerodynamical problem, makes you say ... it's not a sports car and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near Le Mans.

Indeed, I rest my case.

 

[Northstar]

dont understand all the hate against this car, it is the most innovative thing to come out in the last decade!

I think a lot of it stems from the DeltaWing people making rather ludicrous claims like this one.

The new car features all the performance of a traditional LMP1-spec sportscar

Link

That was back in September, even now in February they still haven't announced an engine supplier and have only announced 1 driver(which was just announced today). My doubts are more along the management side of the project rather than the actual performance of the car.

 

[Stavelot]

I don't really care about what you think of this car, but considering it is built around an approved LMP tube, a modern sports car prototype by excellence (meaning, NOT EVEN REMOTELY RELATED with a road car), I find it laughable that the fact it uses skinny front tyres and has a revolutionary approach to the aerodynamical problem, makes you say ... it's not a sports car and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near Le Mans.

Indeed, I rest my case.

Don't you mean a tub? And a sports prototype by excellence? Oh yes the AMR-One was a roaring success wasn't it....

 

[sumbrownkid]

Well according to the ACO, The FIA, IMSA, and the highly crafted members of high croft and dan gurneys all American racers, it's a sportscar.

 

[tribolik]

It's not the most innovative thing to race at Le Mans in the last decade.....

And no, I fully understand the concepts behind this car so you can't give me that 'hate what you don't understand' line. It's not a sportscar, has nothing innovative and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near Le Mans.

Its your opinion and your entitled to it but you have to respect other peoples opinions and most of all you have to respect the facts and the fact is that its racing in Le mans this year... and IMO it must be one of the most innovative cars to race at Le Mans in the last 50 years... never have I imagined seeing something like that racing around Le Mans... Is it pretty? IMO hell no but others may actually like it and I respect that... It remindes me of a dragster and I dont like dragsters all that much.

 

[Stavelot]

I haven't rubbished anyones opinions so I've got no idea why you've said I haven't respected anyone elses....

 

[tribolik]

I haven't rubbished anyones opinions so I've got no idea why you've said I haven't respected anyone elses....

Wow, the design is the only thing that can be brought up? Shame that...

...and it's not a sportscar....

However, I will be so happy to watch it not even make the first hour at Le Mans this year.

It's not a sportscar, has nothing innovative and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near Le Mans.

Don't you mean a tub?

 

[Peter.]

The original goal behind it was to do something different for the sake of being different. Doesn't come across like sound engineering principle to me.

The Delta Wing concept was developed as an alternative idea for oval racing, and it very well could have worked in that discipline. After being rejected it was picked up and proposed as a sports prototype. It was never designed to run on regular circuits with massively differing speed and radius corners, bumps, curbs or heavy braking zones. It wasn't designed to run with regular shaped GT's and LMP's either.

At best it will be slow, at worst it will be dangerous to anyone else out on track.

I wouldn't fancy turning into Mulsanne or either of the two chicanes, only to be speared in the side by the DW that can neither turn or brake effectively.

It was designed to become the new IndyCar for 2012 and beyond. It wasn't made solely for ovals if it was desingned to do so. Get your facts right.

This car is meant to eek out incredible performance as a result of incredible efficiency. The persons who designed this car, and the persons who will be using this car, know far more about it than yourself. I'm sure that you had nothing to do with the design if this car. Yet, you say it will fail, because you jump to conclusions about it from what your eyes are telling you.

I want to see it succeed just to shut up the internet engineers who say it will flip over, understeer like a bus, or some other means of failure.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

GreenGT LMP-H2

I like it, but I think it looks a little too simple. And what aerodynamic shape it does have si strangely angular.

Courage 0.12

This was apparently drawn in an Etch-a-Sketch.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Don't you mean a tub? And a sports prototype by excellence? Oh yes the AMR-One was a roaring success wasn't it....

Yes I meant a tub, I keep making this mistake, need to remind myself of bath tubs or hot tubs when I look at that because I don't have the slightest idea why the English speakers call that structure a ... TUB in portugueseland I think we call that a monocoque.

About the AMR-One, again we're probably having a language-barrier problem. In portuguese when we say that

"this is a .... by excellence"

we don't mean

"this is an excellent .........."

we just mean it is 100% what we say it is. So the AMR-One ... TUB ... is 100% a sports car one.


But let's get past these trivial matters, because I want to say something. If you care to read all I wrote so far, you'll understand I have an enormous difficulty in understanding how that design will work. I am, therefore, very curious and very interested in what will happen. I will be very disapointed if they don't make it to the grid, I will be very disapointed if they don't get past the sand trap in corner 1, I will be very disapointed if the car, for whatever reason, fails miserably. Because I admire bold moves and risky gambles. Courage is needed to venture into uncharted territory and I think HIGHCROFT, of them all, could well have gone any other way and be still doing the ALMS with whatever LMP2 they got their hands on. But hey, "been there, done that", so when they couldn't go LMP1 they decided to go for this. Props to them I say.

And another thing. You don't believe in the car, I get it. That's fine in my book, I don't have a problem there. But by saying that the car is not a sports car, and that it shouldn't get anywhere near Le Mans, you don't add much.

What I expect from a knowledgeable Delta Wing critic is a somewhat more mature posting. I won't say I want from verybody what I will post next, but you will get the idea.

And now, the best critic I have ever read about the Delta Wing. With all credit due to "Machin", a very interesting to read user at the "F1Tehnical" forums, where you will find the kind of mature discussions we should be having here.


Please, notice this. I am reposting here and giving wider audience to an excellent post AGAINST the Delta Wing. That should tell you something about how I value opinions, regardless of my personal preferences:

After running some simulations of the Deltawing I have no doubt that it should be capable of a 3:45 lap time at Le Mans, despite only 300bhp. What bother’s me about the Deltawing is that many of the benefits of the design could easily be applied to a ‘conventional’, rectangular, car and furthermore, it is suggested that the ‘delta’ shape has many disadvantages compared to a rectangular car.

To illustrate these disadvantages I have modelled a rectangular ground effects car which I humbly call the “Machin Wingcar”:-

The different aspects of the Deltawing are compared to the Wingcar below, with numbers for comparison:-

Weight distribution
The Deltawing has a 27.5:72.5 Fr:Rr weight distribution. The Wingcar uses a ‘conventional’ 45:55 Fr:Rr distribution.

Wheelbase
The Deltawing has a 2.9m wheelbase. The Wingcar has a 2.6m wheelbase.

Overall Length
The Deltawing is 4.65m long overall. The Wingcar would be 4.35m long overall.

Overall Width
The Deltawing has a 2m overall width. The Wingcar would have the same overall width.

Centre of Gravity Height
Both cars would have a cg height of approximately 0.3metres. Nothing on the Deltawing would suggest a lower cg than a conventional car.
No advantage to either car

Engine
The Deltawing uses a 300bhp, turbocharged 1.6 litre engine, weighing just 77kg. The Wingcar would use the same engine. No advantage to either car.

Gearbox
The Deltawing uses a 5 speed gearbox weighing just 33kg. The wingcar would use the same gearbox. No advantage to either car.

Total Mass
The Deltawing weighs 475kg. Can a “conventional” prototype be made this light? The Radical SR3 is this light and is a spaceframe and GRP-bodied prototype. A carbon monocoque car could easily attain this weight.
No advantage to either car

Tyre Width
The Deltawing uses 320mm wide rear tyres and special 100mm wide front tyres. To obtain the same rear tyre contact area pressure the Wingcar requires 240mm wide rear tyres (due to the lower rear weight distribution). For convenience the front tyres of the Wingcar are the same size as the rear. This leads to a lower contact area pressure on the front tyres of the Wingcar than on the Deltawing, despite the higher weight on the front tyres. Lower tyre contact area pressures should reduce tyre wear.
Advantage Wingcar.

Track widths
The Deltawing has a 0.6m front track width. Its overall 2m width and 320mm wide rear tyres results in a rear track of 1.68m. The Wingcar’s overall 2m width and 240mm tyres results in a front and rear track of 1.76m.
Advantage Wingcar

Drag
The Deltawing has a drag coefficient of 0.24 and a frontal area of approx 1.2m^2. With identical dimensions the Wingcar would have the same frontal area. Since the Wingcar’s rear tyres are in the wake of the front tyres, and (due to the narrower rear tyres) a smaller “base area” at the rear of the car the Wingcar would potentially have a lower drag coefficient.
Advantage Wingcar

Downforce
The Deltawing reportedly will make 9300N of downforce at 200mph. Due to the wider rear tyres and small “delta” plan area the space for ground effects is small –approx 2.7m^2. The Wingcar, with narrower rear tyres and large rectangular plan area has a much larger ground effect area, approx 6m^2. This means the Wingcar’s floor loading is lower which should improve efficiency.
Advantage Wingcar

Braking Performance
Braking performance is highest when tyre contact area pressures are distributed evenly over a vehicle’s tyres. Assuming a 1.5G braking event and no downforce the Deltawing would have a Fr:Rr weight distribution of 43:57 resulting in approximate tyre contact pressures of 50kN/m^2 on the front and 21kN/m^2 on the rear, despite the rearward static weight distribution the narrow front tyres will be the limiting factor in braking. The Wingcar, with a conventional static weight distribution and equally sized tyres, in the same 1.5G braking event has a weight distribution of 62:38, resulting in tyre contact pressures of 30kN/m^2 (front) and 18kN/m^2 (rear). The lower tyre contact area pressures on the Wingcar should result in higher braking performance, or lower wear for the same performance.
Advantage Wingcar

Cornering Performance
As with Braking, cornering performance is highest when tyre contact pressures are distributed evenly over a vehicle’s tyres. The narrow front track of the Deltawing results in a higher load on the outside rear tyre than a conventional car as it must resist the majority of the over-turning moment. Subjected to 1.5G cornering event (again with no downforce) the pressure on the outside rear tyre of the Delta wing is estimated at 47kN/m^2. Despite the Wingcar’s narrower rear tyres, the fact that the front track width is much wider and can therefore absorb an equal amount of the over-turning moment means the rear outside tyre contact area pressure is just 40kN/m^2 in the same cornering scenario.
Advantage Wingcar

Low speed acceleration
Low speed acceleration is determined by the amount of motive force that can be transmitted to the road and this is determined by the vertical force on the driven tyres. The Deltawing’s high rear weight distribution and wide rear tyres gives the Deltawing higher low speed acceleration than a conventional car, all else being equal. At a circuit like Le Mans, with high average speeds, this is of little benefit.
Negligable benefit to Deltawing at Le Mans.

Side impact Crash protection
The Deltawing’s narrow monocoque has little room for side impact protection alongside the driver safety cell. The wingcar’s wide body work enables the fitment of long side impact crash structures within the body work.


So to conclude:- Many of the features/characteristics of the Deltawing (engine, lightweight, ground effects etc) would work equally well, if not better, on a conventional car. The ‘delta’ shape of the Deltawing has clearly been shown to be inferior to the rectangular shape of a conventional car in all but low speed straight line acceleration, which has negligable benefit at a high speed course like Le Mans.

 

[Stavelot]

All of what he has said is essentially what I'm basing my thoughts of it being a brilliant failure on. The fact that it has no downforce generating aerofoils infront of the front axle and only venturi tunnels to generate downforce those front tyres will be hard to keep 'switched on' when a majority of the lap is straights.

Considering the contact patch of those fronts, the stiffness that the car will likely have in terms of suspension means weight transfer under braking will be more of the horizontal plane linear style rather than a forward arc (the suspension compressing like a normal sportscar no matter how minimal still manages the weight shift and can be used to tune out understeer by giving the front axle more bite). What this means is with all that weight in the rear, no low speed downforce being generated up front and ride height sensitive aerodynamics this car will be a hard car to handle and will have a hard time attacking the Porsche curves, Mulsanne chicanes or Ford Chicanes with any kind of vigor (or speed....).

Make a lightweight coupe with trimmed out upper surface wings and the same tunnels like the Aerocar and you can achieve exactly what they're setting out to achieve and not land the same crappy nickname....

 

[Pupik]

What the hell does "brilliant failure" mean, Stavelot? It sounds to me you want to take credit for the DeltaWing's success if it works out well, and show off your mortar board if it doesn't have immediate results.

Armchair engineering at it's finest...

 

[ZEROX]

Is this the real-scale of the car?
If it does, looks kinda small, actually.

Sorry if the video has been posted.