Highcroft's Deltawing *Update: granted ALMS 2013 full entry! *
- Thread starter Hun200kmh
- 482 comments
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- 1,326
- SC
Im sure when the computer program was modeling how the weight should be balanced out it took into effect the nose lift at launch physics by inputing a torque range they expected the engine to generate, and moved just enough weight forward so that no matter how hard they accelerated on any grip level there was no way the nose would lift up.
- 7,527
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
That's because carts aren't cars.
Drag races don't flip over despite being even longer and accelerating harder. The cart has a high cg. Race cars don't. Carts also don't have downforce.
Going back to the "Wingcar" though and getting a chance to read the comparison more thoroughly, I'm not quite sure on one point:
The frontal areas might be the same, but the CD's won't have to be. The Delta has the advantage of being able to turn the flow less abruptly leading to a lower CD, so the Delta might hold the edge here. But you would need to actually evaluate the CD on both cars to be sure.
Also, on tire wake, that robs you of downforce area.
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- 5,184
- Phoenix, AZ
- nitrorocks
byegad
That's a really good point. 👍
CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,260
- United States
With Nissan involved, I highly doubt it's a PR stunt.
- 657
- Texas
- XizangM1
I would question the stability of any car with such a unique wheel arrangement...
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- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
With the Nissan Livery the car has sort of grown on me. It reminds me of something that batman would drive.
- 5,184
- Phoenix, AZ
- nitrorocks
Batman's LMP car
- 1,326
- SC
LMSCorvetteGT2
This. it didnt look too pretty in a red dress, but black is more its color for sure. only i would say more like catwomans ride though.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
I don't think anyone questioned that it would turn around high to medium speed corners - the real question is how it reacts to low speed corners and hairpins and more importantly how it compares with the equivelant "normal" chassis layout - its all well and good being physically capable of turning, but if it has to go slower to make the turn, its really not proving anything.
I still don't understand how its going to generate enough front grip to carry the same speed around corners as an LMP or GT car.
I still also think its looks horrid - I mean speed isn't meant to be beautiful but if we have choice between slower specifications but nicer-looking cars I would far prefer it.
I also question what "innovation" the car really brings - ok, so if it works its proven that you can use this layout for racing with a low-drag setup creating the same amount of grip. But car manufacturers will still use a chassis that copies their roadcar looks at least for GT cars and can the DeltaWing really generate the same performance levels as LMP1 or even Formula 1 to make it a potential replacement in design?
Is there room for development or is the performance potential of the car also limited? For example, the front-exhausts on last year's Renault F1 car showed that while a design can look initially quite innovative and clever - it can also be rather limited in its scope for development and improvement compared to traditional methods.
- 7,527
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
It doesn't have to. It will turn like a LMP with less grip. That's the point.
I can't really agree there. The best form come from function.
Road cars probably won't look like this (but who is to say?). I think the biggest effect this might have is denting the horsepower wars. And I really hope that happens. Cars today are reaching 700 hp easy, but they're also all pigs, and 2,750 lbs is usually considered light today. I'd rather have a 400 hp supercar that would out corner them all while also burning a quarter of the gas.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
Ok, grip, turning angle, whatever, you know what I mean - performance in turning a corner whether it comes from downforce, sheer tyre grip or weight distribution. My point is I still don't see how its going be faster around the same corner than the equivelant power/weight LMP car.
And as for using less fuel - how much less? How much more more effecient or less draggy is the design? 1 lap of Le Mans more fuel effecient or 20 laps? Some of these answers can only be presented during/after the race itself as we have yet to have a direct comparison.
- 1,326
- SC
Have we even seen any figures from the test yet? how do you know its not pulling the same lateral g's through slow corners? as soon as we get the data from the test in reguards to speed through the corners its all speculation at this point
- 7,986
- GTP_Royalton
Ardius
The major advantage of prototypes and GT cars over the Delta Wing is their wings. But, wings are utterly pointless and useless to motorists and the auto industry. Therefore, the biggest speed advantage traditional prototypes and GT cars have over the Delta Wing is one that really doesnt belong in motorsports that claim to help advance the automtive industry.
How is going slower not proving anything? If the Delta Wing can be a little bit slower then LMP cars, but if it uses 40% less fuel and have better tire wear, then it's a huge success, and it will beat those cars.
Ardius
While the LMP and GT field may be faster in high speed corners thanks to wings, the Delta Wing, despite it's narrow front tires, will generate decent cornering speed due to it's low weight. I'm not sure why everyone is concerned with it's speed around slow corners, as that's where I think it will perform the best.
475 KGS - Delta Wing
925 kgs - LMP
1250 kgs - GT
Ardius
I dont think the Delta wing has to have the performance of LMP or Formula 1. The way those cars are now, they're built for speed and show. Alot of the technology in them is pointless to road cars, like the wings. For the past few years the ACO has constantly cutting down the power of the LMP cars, in Formula 1 the powers has been cut down and the engines have gotten smaller and smaller. The Delta Wing skips ahead a few years to a point where while it may be slower, initially, it reopens the door for the quest for speed, and innovation, as it is a from scratch design.
Ardius
Alot of people are worried that the Delta Wing will lead to a spec class of these cars. I disagree. When the car was proposed to Indycars, they made the point bodykits and development was possible.
A fan rendition of a developed Delta Wing
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/Holt2007/deltawingam.jpg
- 7,937
- LMSCorvetteGT2's Mom's House
- GTP_LancerEvo7
Suprised they aren't using paddles instead of that sequential. LMPs have paddles, right?
- 2,073
- Newcastle, NSW, Australia
- mrvajj
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
I don't see what the DeltaWing brings to roadcars and if its slower than LMP it doesn't bring anything to racing either.
And when I say "slower" I don't just mean in outright laptime but in overall performance - if its also slower in strategy despite better fuel economy.
You keep saying that LMP and F1 bring nothing to roadcars but thats not strictly true - and equally what does the DW bring to roadcars?
Oh yay, the DW can go as fast with less horsepower - but that doesn't mean its better for roadcars, its meant to go as fast due to lower drag thanks to not using wings to produce the downforce and grip. But seeing as roadcars don't need wings and have other concerns other than speed, its just as useless for a roadcar as wings are.
KERS has more use in a roadcar than this thing does.
And when I referred to a DeltaWing race series, I didn't say anything about a spec series.
To be honest, most of the "it can be useful to roadcars" stuff is a marketing lie. While there are small applications of motorsport technology in roadcars, most of the time its nothing to do with making roadcars better and all about making the cars faster. Its all about attempting to appeal to car manufacturers and sponsors by claiming the cars have "green" technology or improve roadcars. So I don't see this as some competition of how much more useful a DeltaWing is for roadcars than an LMP or F1 - the real question that should matter is how fast or more effective it is in racing, for that is its purpose for existing.
If the only reason the DeltaWing is better is that it makes roadcars better then I still question what is really so great about it racing then? Does it really need to race against other cars or even race at all?
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- 23,448
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
The weight advantage of the Delta Wing is completely artificial. If that's it's major USP, then this is purely a publicity stunt.
The 925kgs weight of a regular LMP car is set that high by regulations. Given free rein, those cars could easily drop below 650kgs and beyond. As a basic chassis design, the Deltawing may be smaller and therefore lighter than a LMP chassis, but not by much - certainly not enough to give it the advantage it potentially has over today's heavily ballasted LMPs.
- 7,527
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Well, what makes you think it will be slower?
It uses half the power, so possibly it could use half the fuel. Fuel is just energy which is force*distance. Half the force over the same distance = half the fuel.
This is probably true, and its extreme weight balance prevents it from running a LMP style nose which cuts how much downforce it could make overall. However, it's only in its first generation form as of now. It might only get better from here.
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- Philippines
From what I can gather, the front end and front tires on the DeltaWing matter about as much as the front end of a dragster. All the weight is entirely between the rear tires, which means it should self-correct when it starts getting loose.
We won't know how stable or unstable it is aerodynamically until it races. I recall many four-wheeled racecars (including LMPs) which had a propensity to attain flight when they were new... even with aerodynamic downforce.
- 7,113
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
- 746
On the one video posted you can see some huge corrections being done every time the camera changes. I do agree its an interesting thought having just 2 wheels holding most of the weight and 2 other wheels just for ballance. I do think this car lends itself to the future of racing but a wide front version is something id love to see just for an aesthetics point of view. You can stick them out like a caparo T1 inside a concealed pod. I just cant get over the looks, I knew it would run as it makes sense why it would just darn its ugly.
- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Look familiar?
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