Honda Insight + Hybrid Chatter: What the CR-Z should have been all along - Post 288

[Heldenzeit]

I thought that the Accord hybrid was cool because they used the 240hp engine. With that connected to the IMA they produced more power.

...Thats the proper way to do it.

 

[YSSMAN]

The problem was that it wasn't efficent enough to keep people buying them. I saw one of the Accord Hybrids yesterday, it was the first time I had seen one in at least six months. Not being a "full-hybrid" like the Toyota Camry, it just didn't get the praise it deserved simply because it didn't save enough fuel.

What Honda should do is put an IMA Hybrid in the Element and in the CR-V, that way they can get those small crossover sales while pushing their "green" capabilities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Toyota doesn't have a hybrid version of the RAV4 yet, and with the Two-Mode Saturn VUE still a while a way, the market is left wide-open at this point...

 

[YSSMAN]

ITS CALLED THE INSIGHT! WHAT A NAME!?

Honda pulled a fast one on us and gave its new Prius-killer a crazy dusted-off name — the 2010 Honda Insight. While certainly not creative, the intent behind this vehicle is. At an expected price tag of $18,500, the new Honda Insight is expected to compete at a much lower price point than any other hybrid on the market. Although it's only a "concept" version, we're told we should expect the final version to show off more than 90% of the same looks as the one pictured here. We'll find out for sure when we see it officially unveiled at the Paris Motor Show in October, with the production-intent tweaks debuting at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Our first take is the Insight looks surprisingly like our rendered speculation, but actually jazzes things up a bit with big flashy wheels, sharp lower lighting and plenty of chrome, all of which are suspect in production form. It does still have the shape of a robot egg, so we're not totally surprised there. The car is primarily powered by the gasoline engine, with standard hybrid electric startup and acceleration duties. Honda is also touting a "driving support function" which helps drivers achieve higher mileage.

Well, I like it a helluva lot better than the Prius, certainly an interesting way of looking at the same problem and coming out with slightly different results. Between it, the Prius and the upcoming Volt, it looks as though Americans will have plenty of good choices when it comes to a "green" car.

That, and the price is downright "cheap" if they can nail it this time around.

 

[Kent]

I thought Honda were already taking on the Pious...

Exactly my thoughts and making a new version of the car doesn't really fool me into thinking this is their first effort.
Much like the Prius, I think this car is ugly. Maybe a little bit less ugly than the Prius but still far more ugly than anything I considered when buying my car (and it was the same price range so don't get the wrong idea about my comparisons).

Well... I'm glad to see Honda isn't giving up. 👍

 

[Philly]

I'm guessing it'll look more like the red car in the middle? The white thing looks like a minivan. The looks are decidedly unsporty, although I doubt any of the people who will buy it care about that.

$18,500? I'd bet Toyota will try to put thier next Prius around that if they want to keep sales up. Volt, who?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

So it is shaped like a Prius after all. I'm guessing that's the shape you want to keep the drag low. The first generation Insight has a similar shape.

The white four-door looks pretty interesting along with the two-door. Are these production or concept versions?

 

[Philly]

I would guess that the general shape will be what we see in showrooms, but the fancy stuff will be gone. Think the shape of the white car with a look similar to the red middle car, which looks very showroom-ready.

 

[FoolKiller]

If it had looked like this I would be interested.

But now it just looks like an updated Insight (which it is, I know) or a Prius with Honda stylings. I'll stick to my Rabbit, thank you.

 

[McLaren]

I would guess that the general shape will be what we see in showrooms, but the fancy stuff will be gone. Think the shape of the white car with a look similar to the red middle car, which looks very showroom-ready.

The red one is the FCX Clarity, which is actually for sale in California.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

$600/month is quite a bit of a steal for a car that Honda claims takes around $1 million to produce.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

If it had looked like this I would be interested.

The coupe in the background looks close enough to me.

 

[FoolKiller]

The coupe in the background looks close enough to me.

Yeah, I didn't even realize it was. I saw the first two and just assumed it was three versions of the same car. But now that you mention it, I think it is.

I wonder what the price tag will be.

 

[homeforsummer]

Let's clarify: In the shot of the three cars, the front one is the new Insight, the maroon car in the middle is the FCX, Honda's fuel cell car, and the car at the back is the CR-Z concept, which is the same as all those photos I posted. I expect Honda's Insight will look pretty much like the concept YSSMAN posted pics of with very few changes (apart from probably the wheels).

As for the car itself, it certainly looks better than the Prius, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it's more fun to drive than the Toyota. I can't say it's stunning - I personally loved the original Insight so something more "standard" like this new one can only be a little disappointing, but then that's what the CR-Z is for. Honda have said in the past that they want a range of hybrids and the CR-Z will give us something more exciting.

 

[JohnBM01]

So a late 1990s car returns for the 21st Century. I'll tell you... I don't follow the rule stating that you have to hate the Prius. A good thing about this Insight is that (at least to me) the rear wheels aren't covered. This car looks a lot like the latest Prius. If you're going to look at it as "Honda makes their own Prius-designed car to take on Toyota's Prius," then mission accomplished- you made your own Prius. I'm more impartial to Honda unlike most people. So I wonder what Honda will come up with to take on Toyota in a "Green War." Both the Insight and Prius are in their second(?) generations. Hell, I remember both the Prius and Insight from 1999, even racing a Prius for fun in Gran Turismo 2.

Who would have known in this day and age that cars like the Prius and Insight would eventually be so sought after even with today's oil situation? Almost seems as if most of the ones who loved the Prius and Insight before this day would have said to some gas-guzzler car lovers, "I told you so. I told you that gas wasn't going to last forever... but you wanted that Excursion or that Explorer."

New Insight... Recent Prius. Who takes this battle? And no, the Prius can't lose by default.

 

[Philly]

I expect Honda's Insight will look pretty much like the concept YSSMAN posted pics of with very few changes (apart from probably the wheels).

I'd expect to see some not at thrilling taillights, no LED running lights, maybe slightly more subtle styling and maybe a new top grille, definitely losing the backlighting.

it wouldn't surprise me at all if it's more fun to drive than the Toyota.

That isn't saying much, I know, but still, driving a hybrid probably can't be thrilling enough to make that an plus for the car, especially since it's market doesn't care and it isn't designed at all to be a driver's car. Unless you subscribe to the theory that it is perfectly entertaining to see how good of gas mileage you can get, in which case this may be an interesting drive. I know I play that game from time to time with the GTI...

SBoth the Insight and Prius are in their second(?) generations.

This'll be the third generation Prius after the new one comes out in a year or so. This is the second generation Insight after Honda "skipped" a generation. Bad move on Honda's part.

New Insight... Recent Prius. Who takes this battle? And no, the Prius can't lose by default.

It'll be the new Prius, which we know little about it seems. It should be an interesting battle if the new Toyota can shave $4000 of the current Prius' sticker.

 

[Rusty*]

It's beige, it's a Civic, and the guy is playing golf...those cars really are marketed to old people.

Iw ould say that elderly people mske up the bulk of there sales, as speed and time are not an issue. Elderly people I believe look for something that takes the thinking out of driving and having a car. They probably only going to be using for a general run-about and shopping-trolley, the car wouldn't be used all that much anyway.
In that case hybrids are perfect for that job!👍
Peace.

 

[FoolKiller]

In the US Hondas are not an old people car, which I understand is the case in other countries.

In the US they are typically owned by college students looking for an affordable and reliable car. Oh, and ricers, of course.

Old people drive Crown Victorias and Cadillacs.

 

[Philly]

Out west you'll see a lot of old people in Accords and things. But then again, old people drive everything there, and everybody drives Hondas...

 

[niky]

Errh... young people buy the Prius. The bulk of its market are the eco-freaks and techno-geeks... people awed by the technology and wanting to own something both good for the environment and good for their wallet (the latter only being true because of government subsidy...)...

Have you read a Prius forum? It's full of guys talking about computer hacks, hypermiling, battery modification and the like... not questions on how to keep your dentures clean.

These guys are not your typical non-car people... enthusiasts actually buy Priuses... not just greenies.

Having driven one for a week, I can safely say... yuck... not my kind of car... too quiet... handling too inert... but it's big inside, comfortable, has decent acceleration (about equal to a regular 2.0 automatic sedan) and has incredible fuel economy. If it made any kind of financial sense without the tax breaks (since we don't get hybrid incentives here outside the US... the Prius costs roughly two Corollas... ) I would actually recommend it as a buy.

It irks me that people classify a Prius as an "old person's" car because it is "slow"... 10 seconds (or less) to 60 mph isn't blazing fast, but it's faster than a 2.0 AT Mazda3, Honda Civic 1.8 AT, etcetera, etcetera, ad nauseum... and the Mazda3 isn't an "old person's" car. Old people want a nice, big, quiet, comfortable car... a Park Avenue, maybe a Camry... but a Prius? They'd buy it because it got good gas mileage, but then, so does everyone else.

But me, I'm waiting to see if Hybrids can be anything more than a halo car, and can become mainstream. The cost of batteries and the need of subsidized/discounted pricing so far says "no"... and the fact that a depleting charge hybrid or pure electric might make more sense (if ultra-capacitors ever make it past the vaporware stage...)... mean that I'm placing my bets elsewhere, for the meantime.

If Honda can bring its own Hybrid in at that price range, it'd be competitive without tax breaks. That'd be a good buy.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I think Toyota's suit old people more.

Have you read a Prius forum? It's full of guys talking about computer hacks, hypermiling, battery modification and the like... not questions on how to keep your dentures clean.

I don't think a forum would be the best place to gauge that.

 

[V1P3R]

I like how it looks just like a Prius, go originality.

 

[homeforsummer]

That isn't saying much, I know, but still, driving a hybrid probably can't be thrilling enough to make that an plus for the car, especially since it's market doesn't care and it isn't designed at all to be a driver's car.

It probably won't be great fun to drive, but you never know. Most regular cars aren't "fun" as such, but some are better than others. If we were to compare the current Honda Civic and Toyota Auris (and do people really care if their base model family car is fun to drive?), the Honda is apparently a whole lot better handling than the Toyota (and a Focus better than either), so it wouldn't surprise me if there was a similar margin between the Insight and the Prius.

I guess hybrids don't have to be boring either, the original Insight was supposed to be good fun to chuck about, because it was light, had fairly stiff suspension, and a characterful 3-pot engine. There are a couple of good photos on youtube of someone bombing around a race circuit in one 👍

 

[niky]

I don't think a forum would be the best place to gauge that.

The fact that they forum at all tells you something... Many initial buyers of the Prius were techno-geeks and eco-freaks. Highly educated people with lots of money. Sure, they're older than the average car buyer (average buyer 40, average Prius buyer 50), but since when was 40-50 years of age doddering? 50 year olds are the same guys who buy Corvettes and 911s, fer crying out loud.

----

Note, I'm not a Prius owner... and I don't really like it, simply because it doesn't have lively handling... but that's not the fault of the hybrid system... it's the tires and suspension... the suspension is typically Toyota... a bit too soft... and the tires are low rolling-resistance tires, which make for low grip.

The new Insight will probably still have low rolling resistance tires, but handling per se should be better with Honda's typically stiff suspension tuning. A hybrid can be a fun car... but the demographic that's looking for a "fun" hybrid instead of a "practical" one isn't quite there, yet.

 

[Philly]

I guess hybrids don't have to be boring either, the original Insight was supposed to be good fun to chuck about, because it was light, had fairly stiff suspension, and a characterful 3-pot engine. There are a couple of good photos on youtube of someone bombing around a race circuit in one 👍

Too bad a hybrid drive train and light weight seem to be mutually exclusive now... And I've heard that the Prius requires little effort to pilot, most likely meaning dead steering and a pretty lame gas pedal. I doubt this car will be similar at all to the old Insight aside from the badge on the back.

Although hybrids can be interesting to drive... I've had plenty of good times bombing my fully modded Prius with a close gear box around Motorland in GT4.

 

[The Grither]

That looks an awful lot like the old CRX concept.. darn it! I was hoping they'd put an H20 in the new CRX but I guess not.

Sorry, I meant the K20A! Wow, what a difference a letter makes!

 

[YSSMAN]

The neighbor has the "Sport Package" Prius that came out a while ago, but other than the different wheels, I'm not sure if it changed the suspension tune at all. Its far better-looking than your average Prius (black with the gray powder-coat wheels looks good), but it doesn't get my blood pumping when I've got my Celica parked outside next to a newer A4 and a brand-new Civic Coupe.

 

[homeforsummer]

Although hybrids can be interesting to drive... I've had plenty of good times bombing my fully modded Prius with a close gear box around Motorland in GT4.

My 150+bhp Insight on GT4 is pretty fun too But I agree though - it's a pity they don't make more of an effort to keep weight down. The Insight was designed from the ground-up as a hybrid and it shows - aluminium construction, teardrop shape, covered rear wheels, flat underbody etc. It's still the only hybrid I would genuinely buy if I had the money.

That looks an awful lot like the old CRX concept.. darn it! I was hoping they'd put an H20 in the new CRX but I guess not.

The one you're referring to is the old CRX concept, it's always been called the CR-Z, and they've started wheeling it out for shows again because they're making more of a push with their hybrid technology.

 

[YSSMAN]

At What Point Are There Too Many Buttons and Screens?

Crazy. It looks like it will help... Somehow... But I'm not sure...

 

[Philly]

I always wanted a steering wheel with the rim of the wheel fixed to the dashboard...

I guess the theory is if they make it look enough like a command post and less like a driver's seat, it'll sell well. I'm thinking people will really like that interior.

Maybe there's a wall around the driver's seat so you can only talk to the occupants via intercom like in a jet airplane?

 

[homeforsummer]

Doesn't look much different to the current Civic, to be honest. I doubt in practice it'll be too hard to follow. At least it doesn't have a distracting little graphic showing where the power is going at any given moment like the Prius does. Though again, at the risk of harping on about the old Insight, the interior on that car was so much better - fairly simple but all the information still at hand. Quite S2000-like.

But maybe people driving around in new technology like to feel like they're driving around in new technology, and want lots of flashing lights and dials to let them know they're in a hybrid.

 

[Philly]

The cars are so quiet that they probably just need things beeping and flashing to remind them that the car is actually on and running ok.