Honda Insight + Hybrid Chatter: What the CR-Z should have been all along - Post 288

[Keef]

Doesn't look much different to the current Civic, to be honest. I doubt in practice it'll be too hard to follow. At least it doesn't have a distracting little graphic showing where the power is going at any given moment like the Prius does. Though again, at the risk of harping on about the old Insight, the interior on that car was so much better - fairly simple but all the information still at hand. Quite S2000-like.

But maybe people driving around in new technology like to feel like they're driving around in new technology, and want lots of flashing lights and dials to let them know they're in a hybrid.

That's neither a Civic or an S2000 in your picture. Actually, even being a Honda guy, I have no idea what Honda that is...

 

[Philly]

Euro Civic? Euro Accord?

 

[Keef]

It's got an S2000's steering wheel, digital gauges in the same style as the S2000, but an SUV-like height and steering wheel angle, along with a very old-school looking radio.

Not a clue.

 

[Philly]

It's a first gen Insight.

 

[Keef]

!

The only other Honda car to ever share the S2000's steering wheel, lmao. Also the most forgotten in my mind.

 

[YSSMAN]

Actually, even being a Honda guy, I have no idea what Honda that is...

I'm surprised, I recognized it right away.

Too bad on the old Insight. I'd love to have one. Just for the "hey, look at this awkward car" factor.

 

[homeforsummer]

That's neither a Civic or an S2000 in your picture. Actually, even being a Honda guy, I have no idea what Honda that is...

As mentioned, it's the Insight. But if you read closely you'll see that I didn't claim it was either a Civic, nor an S2000 With the Civic comment I was referring to the image in the post above mine, and then I went on to mention the Insight, saying that the dash had some design features similar to the S2000 👍 As for the "SUV like height and steering wheel angle", that's just the perspective throwing things out of proportion. I've sat in an Insight and the cabin is fairly snug, and the driving position quite low.

 

[EA11R]

It kinda bugs me that people are thinking of the Honda CR-Z as a rehash of the CR-X, because of its proportions. Those small fastback-to-Kammback (google it) proportions only came about as a slight compromise between aerodynamics and practiaclity (Which is to say, it does brilliantly in both, to an extent), and were implemented in both the CR-X and the Insight.

In reality, we'll only be able to see if it's a true successor to the Insight or the CR-X once it comes out, and people drive it. In my opinion, the new Insight is a brand-new car, because I don't see it as a successor to the better-mileage-at-all-cost Insight 3dr; the new one is a more balanced, considered, and admittedly boring approach.

Ideally, the CR-Z will handle well regardless of its drivetrain, and become either an excellent hot hatch (This is Honda, and that adjective is my hunch) or a uniquely fun hybrid (actually, wasn't the original Insight complimented for its "challenging handling?").

Regardless, I disapprove of the new Insight. Reason: There is already a practical, hyperefficient Honda on the market. It is called Civic hybrid. The new Insight poses only evolutionary mileage improvements when compared to the present gas-electric Civic, so it's really chasing after the Hollywood-Prius crowd.

 

[homeforsummer]

Ideally, the CR-Z will handle well regardless of its drivetrain, and become either an excellent hot hatch (This is Honda, and that adjective is my hunch) or a uniquely fun hybrid (actually, wasn't the original Insight complimented for its "challenging handling?").

From the reviews I read on the original Insight, the handling was apparently quite fun, because the car was light, the suspension was fairly stiff, and the tyres were fairly skinny so the limits were quite easy to reach.

Regardless, I disapprove of the new Insight. Reason: There is already a practical, hyperefficient Honda on the market. It is called Civic hybrid. The new Insight poses only evolutionary mileage improvements when compared to the present gas-electric Civic, so it's really chasing after the Hollywood-Prius crowd.

As far as I'm aware, the new Insight is designed to be sub-Civic - both smaller and cheaper. It's not so much chading the Hollywood crowd as making hybrids even more accessible to normal people and trying to make the car less of a niche. Also, the current Civic gets good mileage figures but it's not a patch on the original Insight. Hopefully the new Insight will have economy somewhere between the two. I'm holding out for Honda announcing that it has a nice, low kerbweight.

 

[harrytuttle]

I'm tempted to say the dashboard is a chaotic mess of colors and shapes, but I'll have to hold off until I sit behind it. I first felt the same way about the current-generation Civic: flat out awful, scattershot design. Then I sat behind the wheel. The second my butt hit the seat, like magic, it all made sense. Everything lines up. It's great ergonomics. At least for me. Getting back up, like some optical illusion, it started to look random again. I have a feeling the Insight will be the same way.

 

[YSSMAN]

Its the Insight - Normalified!

Best guess on price? Jalopnik is saying $18,500. Thats cheap.

EDIT:

I just noticed how odd the rear looks at that angle...

 

[Jim Prower]

It'll go up after Toyota threatens to sue...that thing looks very, very much like the Prius.

 

[Jondot]

Right, so when Honda said they'd be making another Prius, what they really meant was that they'd actually be making the Prius.

I mean for god's sake... It's hardly the most interesting shape in the world, is it? I've seen shoe horns with more design flair. Make your hybrids interesting damnit!


Also, why do I keep accidentally calling it the Honda N-Sync?

 

[FoolKiller]

I've heard that the design similarities are due to the best aerodynamic shape for the class, which plays a huge role in making it efficient.

 

[Philly]

I mean for god's sake... It's hardly the most interesting shape in the world, is it? I've seen shoe horns with more design flair. Make your hybrids interesting damnit!

The concept was far more interesting looking. I have no problem with a pretty basic shape, but when it looks like they tried to make in interesting, it just isn't right.

I've heard that the design similarities are due to the best aerodynamic shape for the class, which plays a huge role in making it efficient.

Even the new Prius seems to have the exact same shape as the old one with a new face slapped on.

 

[Keef]

I see no new interior shots. You lie Philly.

 

[Philly]

Ugh. Fine. Happy?

 

[homeforsummer]

I've heard that the design similarities are due to the best aerodynamic shape for the class, which plays a huge role in making it efficient.

Correct. I posted a paragraph along those lines somewhere, I thought it was in this thread but apparently not. Given what they have to fit into the car, i.e. an engine, five seats and boot space, that shape is pretty much the most efficient they can come up with without seriously changing the design of the car (think Aptera or that Mercedes concept based on a box fish).

It's why this Insight and the new Prius look pretty much exactly the same as the old Prius.

What does disappoint me is that Honda haven't bothered to cover up the rear wheel arches like they did with the original Insight. It's quite a significant benefit aerodynamically - it's no coincidence that it's often one of the very first mods that "ecomodders" do when improving the aerodynamics of their cars, as with the cars below:

 

[TheCracker]

What does disappoint me is that Honda haven't bothered to cover up the rear wheel arches like they did with the original Insight. It's quite a significant benefit aerodynamically - it's no coincidence that it's often one of the very first mods that "ecomodders" do when improving the aerodynamics of their cars, as with the cars below:

As 'eco' cars become more mainstream, their potential owners are becoming less tree-huggerish. Regular folks are less inclined to own and drive 'weird' looking cars.

 

[GT Pro]

Pretty good looking, as opposed to many of the other current hybrids out there (no, not the scary 55mpg cars posted above).

 

[homeforsummer]

As 'eco' cars become more mainstream, their potential owners are becoming less tree-huggerish. Regular folks are less inclined to own and drive 'weird' looking cars.

True, but everyone knows what hybrid cars are know and know why people drive them. Much as the Prius is a fairly normal looking car, it's still quite a distinctive shape on the road so they may as well make the most of that and really increase aerodynamic efficiency.

Plus, people were driving around in Citroens with partially or fully covered wheel arches for decades with no problem (2CV, DS, SM, GS, CX, BX. It made them stand out.

Pretty good looking, as opposed to many of the other current hybrids out there (no, not the scary 55mpg cars posted above).

The "scary" 55mpg car is currently getting that figure as an average, not a maximum, and for probably about a tenth the price of a new hybrid that'd struggle to match those figures. Not bad from an old Civic CX (which is probably more fun to drive than a bland modern hybrid, too). The Geo Metro below is currently getting almost 80mpg (link).

Neither are hybrids either, which goes to show all you really need are good aerodynamics, an efficient and not-too-big engine, and considerate driving.

EDIT: Incidentally, that Civic now has a full "teardrop" tail. It's probably getting even more than 55mpg now.

Link to full thread

 

[TheCracker]

Plus, people were driving around in Citroens with partially or fully covered wheel arches for decades with no problem (2CV, DS, SM, GS, CX, BX. It made them stand out.

Had it been a Citroen Insight i might have let them off.

 

[Keef]

EDIT: Incidentally, that Civic now has a full "teardrop" tail. It's probably getting even more than 55mpg now.

Link to full thread

I'm surprised it doesn't have air dams and/or been lowered. Less turbulence under the car with a front air dam and side ground affects, and less frontal area with it lowered.

EDIT: The first pic you posted does show a low front air dam. But it might work even better with ground affects along the side of the car so no air can blow in. He also could reshape the rear edge of the front fenders to allow the trapped air to escape easier, like the subtle shaping done on the Z06 and ZR1. This American Le Mans Mazda has that shaping along with louvers and a big vent out the back:

I bet it gets great mileage.

 

[Philly]

I wonder if he's done a flat undertray. That'll probably help aero quite a bit.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm surprised it doesn't have air dams and/or been lowered. Less turbulence under the car with a front air dam and side ground affects, and less frontal area with it lowered.

Re: Lowering, I think he's avoided that because even as it is he had to cut the bottom off the front airdamn as it was scraping and cracking.

EDIT: The first pic you posted does show a low front air dam. But it might work even better with ground affects along the side of the car so no air can blow in. He also could reshape the rear edge of the front fenders to allow the trapped air to escape easier, like the subtle shaping done on the Z06 and ZR1.

Or even the similar effect on the original Insight, where the rear edge of the fender curves outwards from the wheel arch instead of being level with the front part.

I bet it gets great mileage.

Before the boat-tail was added it was doing an average of 55mpg, roughly.

Another member of that forum with a boat-tailed Civic that also has front-end modifications and front wheel arch covers is capable of 95mpg at 60mph. He's reduced the Cd from the 0.34 of a normal Civic CX to 0.17. To put that into perspective (ignoring Cd relative to frontal area), the Honda Insight and Audi A2 are 0.25, and the GM EV1 is 0.19. He reckons it coasts as well at 80mph as it does at 50mph, and that although OEM top speed was only roughly 100mph, it's now capable of roughly 140mph! Search "aerocivic" on google, there are tons of references to the car.

I wonder if he's done a flat undertray. That'll probably help aero quite a bit.

He has, partially: Front, Rear. As you can also see he's fitted parts to deflect the airflow around the wheels to reduce drag too.

 

[buickgnx88]

The great thing with the Aerocivic is if someone makes jokes about the looks of it, you could simply counter them by saying "well can your car get 95mpg?"

 

[Philly]

Gas mileage doesn't justify the Prius for looking ugly though.

 

[Keef]

Before the boat-tail was added it was doing an average of 55mpg, roughly.

I was actually referring to the Mazda and its aero-aids that can make you go far or make you go fast.

 

[YSSMAN]

Gas mileage doesn't justify the Prius for looking ugly though.

There are a lot of people who think the Prius is good-looking, though. My neighbor's model isn't too bad, black on black with the "Sport Package." The "problem" presumably is that the Prius is a bit too different for any of us to accept it as a normal car.

...But hey, when was the last time that the engineers were able to win-out over the designers?

 

[Philly]

There are a lot of people who think the Prius is good-looking, though. My neighbor's model isn't too bad, black on black with the "Sport Package." The "problem" presumably is that the Prius is a bit too different for any of us to accept it as a normal car.

They're all the earthies anyway, so they're a little out there to begin with. Maybe nobody likes the looks because they just don't like the car in general.

...But hey, when was the last time that the engineers were able to win-out over the designers?