Honda Insight + Hybrid Chatter: What the CR-Z should have been all along - Post 288

[niky]

CO2 is a crap pollution figure. If you're emitting less CO2, all that means is that you're being more fuel efficient.

Sulfur is directly related to the sulfur in the fuel. Better fuel, less sulfur.

NOx is the big issue, but with newer direct injection systems in play and urea injection, not so big.

Having tested it firsthand, a hybrid will consume less in stop-start traffic than a diesel. Engine stop-start technology is all fine and well, but if you don't have the batteries to run the AC in sweltering summer heat, then you're going to have the engine running sometimes, at a stop.

It then comes down to whoever has the most battery life to run the climate control, running lights (what about night-time traffic?) and associated frippery. That's where hybrids shine.

But this is compared to a top-of-the-line diesel compact... what if you compare it to a compact with a similar focus on economy?

Take the new Hyundai i30 (haven't tested it, but we're lined up and waiting). 1.6 liter diesel engine. Should do 0-60 in the same 10-ish that the Prius hybrid does, with a little more power on the freeway. Officially does 50 MPG (US), but has done over 70 MPG in long drives. And it costs less than the Prius, too... in fact, costs just about as much as a regular 1.8 - 2.0 compact sedan.

 

[YSSMAN]

Define reasonably equipped. Unless you have more info than you posted it sounds like it has ABS and a CD player. That is the going standard for sub-compacts like a Yaris at this point.

I'd generally consider ABS, side-curtain air bags, MP3/CD player, power windows and locks, among a few other small details to be "reasonably equipped." Although I tend to forget that after driving my VWs for nearly six years, my perception of what may be a "luxury" would be "standard" to most other people. You get automatic climate control, which is a nice touch as well. I'd say the LX is more than adequate in most people's minds, moving up to the EX only adds stability control, heated seats, paddle shifters (bah) and alloy wheels - all reserved for the kapitalist pigs who run the world anyway. Pure excess.

I'm still not sold that this will be too much different from a Prius.... If I drive this Insight the same way will that happen?

The main point Honda had with this car, I believe, was to create a no-compromises Hybrid that not only fits the "green" performance model, but also functions like a normal car. I've yet to read a review that would suggest otherwise, that the overall performance ability for the car is none different than a run-of-the-mill Civic. In this Car and Driver Article they cite a Honda engineer that says "Hondas must drive like cars," and obviously the car fits the bill. In the same article, even with their heavy feet, C&D managed to pull off 46 MPG in their 130 mile trek.

Hooting and hollering about performance figures, cleanliness at the tailpipe, and overall fuel economy, I believe, misses the point of the car. Honda set out to out-Prius the Prius. They did so by not only building a car that is attractive and semi-normal on the outside, but also make it available at a lower cost (using less-complex technology), and keep the overwhelming majority of what makes driving a Honda so special a critical part of the cars DNA. The best way I can think of it is that its a Hybrid for people who don't like Hybrids... Which is likely why I like the car so much. For the price, you're going to be hard-pressed to find a car that can match those kinds of figures. You're still knee-deep in Civic territory there, over $2K short of the MSRP on the Jetta TDI (still my overall favorite green car), and certainly short enough on the Prius to make a choice slightly more easy to do between them.

If we really want to talk Hybrids, I really believe that the Insight will emerge as the model by which the rest of the companies will go after versus that of the Prius. Its cheaper to design, build, and in the end, comes at a lower cost to the consumer while still achieving 92% of the same efficiency of the Toyota "standard" (the new Prius is reportedly due to average 50 MPG). Going bigger, I think Ford has the right idea with the Fusion Hybrid as well. They're doing the same kind of driveability model that Honda has, making as little sacrifice as possible while keeping the car actually working as a car. Well, that, and its the most-efficient car in its size class.

 

[Tornado]

The main point Honda had with this car, I believe, was to create a no-compromises Hybrid that not only fits the "green" performance model, but also functions like a normal car.



The best way I can think of it is that its a Hybrid for people who don't like Hybrids...

They already had a car that was like that (more on that in a second), and making the Insight so obviously ape the 2nd gen Prius makes it very much so the stereotypical hybrid that people who don't like hybrids will avoid like the plague.

If we really want to talk Hybrids, I really believe that the Insight will emerge as the model by which the rest of the companies will go after versus that of the Prius. Its cheaper to design, build, and in the end, comes at a lower cost to the consumer while still achieving 92% of the same efficiency of the Toyota "standard" (the new Prius is reportedly due to average 50 MPG).

In theory. That all really depends if Toyota can reign in costs. If the Prius can come within a couple of grand of the Insight, the Insight suddenly loses its entire point as a Prius competitor.

However, even if Toyota doesn't, the Insight still has to go against the Civic Hybrid. Which is a less-compromised, more recognizable, more powerful, better equipped and larger spin on the same thing that only costs a bit more. And gets better mileage. All at while managing to not look exactly like the stereotypical vehicle for greenies who miss the point entirely. Unless Honda intentionally pulls the Civic Hybrid off the market, there is a very slim chance of the Insight catching on at all because it fails spectacularly at doing anything the Civic Hybrid doesn't already do better except costing a bit less.

 

[Eric.]

They already had a car that was like that (more on that in a second), and making the Insight so obviously ape the 2nd gen Prius makes it very much so the stereotypical hybrid that people who don't like hybrids will avoid like the plague.


In theory. That all really depends if Toyota can reign in costs. If the Prius can come within a couple of grand of the Insight, the Insight suddenly loses its entire point as a Prius competitor.

However, even if Toyota doesn't, the Insight still has to go against the Civic Hybrid. Which is a less-compromised, more recognizable, more powerful, better equipped and larger spin on the same thing that only costs a bit more. And gets better mileage. All at while managing to not look exactly like the stereotypical vehicle for greenies who miss the point entirely. Unless Honda intentionally pulls the Civic Hybrid off the market, there is a very slim chance of the Insight catching on at all because it fails spectacularly at doing anything the Civic Hybrid doesn't already do better except costing a bit less.

What kind of figures are you going on for the Civic? I can't remember what I read, but Consumer Reports' reported mileage wasn't really that great with it, for what that's worth.

 

[Tornado]

Rated mileage. EPA has 40/45. I don't know whether it actually does that or not (even though my uncle has one), however.

 

[Philly]

Hooting and hollering about performance figures, cleanliness at the tailpipe, and overall fuel economy, I believe, misses the point of the car. Honda set out to out-Prius the Prius.

Hooting and hollering about fuel consumption and emissions is something Honda will have to do if they want to out do the Prius. I was looking around a Prius forum earlier today and the whole place is just a bunch of blabbling about emissions and how they aren't destroying the planet, and the economics is an added bonus there.

Basically they treat emissions similarly to how we would treat performance here. So they live in a world this is a world where the Prius is equivalent to the Veyron and the earth-destroying Jetta TDI is a porky and slow Murcielago. Hell, there were guys on that forum saying how glad they were forking out that extra $8,000 in order to help prevent global warming.

However, if Honda can use the Insight to turn dedicated hybrid cars into actual transportation instead of political bullhorns, then they will have accomplished the goal of out-Priusing the Prius and they will sell many.

In theory. That all really depends if Toyota can reign in costs. If the Prius can come within a couple of grand of the Insight, the Insight suddenly loses its entire point as a Prius competitor.

They already have. The Toyota website has the Prius listed at $22,000, only $2000 more than the Insight, and less than the Jetta.

 

[homeforsummer]

CO2 is a crap pollution figure. If you're emitting less CO2, all that means is that you're being more fuel efficient.

You're right, but a the same time, if you're emitting less CO2 (and therefore being more fuel efficient) then you're automatically emitting less of other pollutants too, as you aren't burning as much fuel.

I do think it's stupid that companies blabber on about CO2 the whole time, at least in relation to cars, because CO2 is almost directly proportional to fuel consumed. A Prius has a lower CO2 figure (and in the UK gets charged less road tax) than say... a BMW 118d, to use the earlier example, but if your commute is along a motorway in the BMW and you average 60mpg every day, then you're going to be emitting less CO2 than a Prius that has a hilly, A-road commute and returns no more than 40mpg.

This is why, as Famine has said before, CO2-based road tax in the UK is effectively another fuel tax. And therefore completely ridiculous. Especially if you're paying £100 more a year for your tax than someone else, and yet you could quite easily be getting better fuel consumption than them and therefore making a mockery of their CO2-based system.

However, even if Toyota doesn't, the Insight still has to go against the Civic Hybrid. Which is a less-compromised, more recognizable, more powerful, better equipped and larger spin on the same thing that only costs a bit more. And gets better mileage. All at while managing to not look exactly like the stereotypical vehicle for greenies who miss the point entirely. Unless Honda intentionally pulls the Civic Hybrid off the market, there is a very slim chance of the Insight catching on at all because it fails spectacularly at doing anything the Civic Hybrid doesn't already do better except costing a bit less.

I was under the impression that the Civic Hybrid wasn't as efficient as the Prius or the new Insight (and it certainly wasn't as much as the old Insight)? I'm sure you can still get good mileage from it, but using the new Insight as an example - the Civic is neither as light nor as aerodynamic as the Insight, so it'd surprise me if it was more efficient.

I was looking around a Prius forum earlier today and the whole place is just a bunch of blabbling about emissions and how they aren't destroying the planet, and the economics is an added bonus there.

I've had a look at a Prius forum too before. Anyone ever seen that episode of South Park where the town gets engulfed in Smug? Yeah, it's like that...

I much prefer forums like Ecomodder, where everyone drives normal cars, they just try and drive them more efficiently and sometimes make modifications in order to help.

 

[FoolKiller]

I'd generally consider ABS, side-curtain air bags, MP3/CD player, power windows and locks, among a few other small details to be "reasonably equipped." Although I tend to forget that after driving my VWs for nearly six years, my perception of what may be a "luxury" would be "standard" to most other people. You get automatic climate control, which is a nice touch as well. I'd say the LX is more than adequate in most people's minds, moving up to the EX only adds stability control, heated seats, paddle shifters (bah) and alloy wheels - all reserved for the kapitalist pigs who run the world anyway. Pure excess.

Remove heated seats and alloy wheels (paddle shifters are a negative to me so I don't even count that) and you still have less than what came on my base model Rabbit. VW's have stepped up in the standard options department. Your view of luxury has nothing to do with the VW tag, it has to do with the six years timeframe.

And, despite thinking it pointless, I have used the air conditioned glove box. Oh, and are the brakes four-wheel disc brakes, vented in the front? What kind of suspension?

And the all important question: How many cupholders?

But no, the LX has nothing more than a Yaris these days. And the Ex adds things I wouldn't have as options.

The main point Honda had with this car, I believe, was to create a no-compromises Hybrid that not only fits the "green" performance model, but also functions like a normal car.

Then make it look like one. I will accept hybrids as anything more than smug status symbols when I can't tell the difference between them and any other car.

If we really want to talk Hybrids, I really believe that the Insight will emerge as the model by which the rest of the companies will go after versus that of the Prius.

Brand recognition is a big thing to overcome. Sure, how the Insight is made might be the target but uninformed people already talk about looking at Prius cars, while looking at Escape Hybrids. The early adopters won't forget what the original Insight was and have already shown they have zero ability to actually research the car. And new buyers will look at a Prius first because of the name alone. I know you are near Cartown, USA, but down here the only talk I have heard about the Insight has been in this thread. Even my brother, a smug Prius owner, has laughed off the idea of the Insight.

 

[homeforsummer]

Then make it look like one. I will accept hybrids as anything more than smug status symbols when I can't tell the difference between them and any other car.

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but the reason they look like they do is because it's close to the optimal shape aerodynamically for something that can carry five people and luggage. If it looked like everything else, then it'd be sacrificing a vital aspect of it's efficiency.

It's all about the teardrop, nature's most aerodynamic shape. To make a car as aerodynamic as you can, ideally you want to be following this shape. Here's a good example of the teardrop applied to a production car, the Mazda MX-3:

Obviously, in most applications it's pretty impractical to have a long tail like that - it would make parking a nightmare and you'd always be hitting it on stuff. Not to mention, you'd have to throw your groceries into the back instead of reaching over and placing them in. So to make a compromise, you cut the back off sharply (called a kamm-back), which throws the air off the back instead of trapping it causing turbulence (such as a sedan would do... the air comes off the rear screen and runs into the trunk lid). Most rear-end designs - regular hatchbacks, sedans, SUVs, even many coupes and sports cars are all fairly aerodynamically inefficient.

However, look at cars like the old and new Insights, the Prius (though not the first-gen Prius, nor the Civic Hybrids), the 1st and 2nd gen Honda CRXs, the MX-3, even the Citroen C4 3dr - you could line them all up alongside each other and then line them all up against a giant teardrop similar to that in the MX-3 image above, and they'd all look a very similar shape at the back.

Ideally, you'd want to have a teardrop shape when viewed from above too, but again this has practicality issues (rear seat space, boot space, narrower rear track which reduces stability) so most cars don't feature this. The original Insight did, however (as you can see above), which is why it has one of the lowest Cd figures of any production car ever, and also one of the smallest CdA (drag x area) figures (as it has a small frontal area).

Just about the perfect car teardrop shape is the upcoming Aptera:

So yeah, that's why the Prius and Insight look similar, and that's why they look different from most other cars.

 

[Tornado]

I was under the impression that the Civic Hybrid wasn't as efficient as the Prius or the new Insight (and it certainly wasn't as much as the old Insight)? I'm sure you can still get good mileage from it, but using the new Insight as an example - the Civic is neither as light nor as aerodynamic as the Insight, so it'd surprise me if it was more efficient

Again, I'm not sure if the rated numbers are to be trusted, but they are what they are.

 

[Keef]

Has anyone ever done a study that factors in the manufacturing process and the life of the car into the environmental equation, and also the manufacturing process of making a gas-powered and/or diesel powered normal car and its life span?

I'm not yet convinced that hybrids are cleaner or more efficient when you factor all that stuff in.

 

[homeforsummer]

Has anyone ever done a study that factors in the manufacturing process and the life of the car into the environmental equation, and also the manufacturing process of making a gas-powered and/or diesel powered normal car and its life span?

I'm not yet convinced that hybrids are cleaner or more efficient when you factor all that stuff in.

I do recall some studies along those lines - I believe that Jeep were blowing their own trumpet a while back after an independant study proclaimed the Wrangler as the cleanest car throughout it's lifespan from production to destruction, the reasons including things like the tooling having remained pretty much the same for years and years, it not taking too much energy to press essentially flat bits of steel into a car shape, much of it is recycleable because it doesn't use any fancy materials etc. I can't remember why else it came top of the survey, but top it it did.

There are so many factors involved though. They reckon that in the UK, the cleanest car you can get is a diesel Nissan - the cars are built in the UK, the parts are supplied through the UK network, the engines are French (Renault) so haven't taken much energy to transport to the UK, and when the car gets delivered to a dealership it doesn't have to travel too far either. Being diesel it doesn't use much fuel, and being a Nissan it's generally reliable so likely to have a longer lifespan than a less reliable car.

I suspect a Land Rover Defender is pretty good too, especially given that they say that over 3/4 of all the Defenders (and that family line) ever sold are still going. If a car isn't dying then it's not contributing to landfill or needing energy to recycle.

Lotus's Eco Elise concept from last year was a good example of looking at a product's lifecycle as opposed to just it's fuel consumption and emissions - everything was sourced locally so less energy had been consumed in the car's production and even beforehand. If it'd still been using a Rover K-series built in the UK rather than a Toyota engine built in Japan and shipped over, it would probably be even cleaner from birth to dust, despite being less fuel efficient and the engine being an older, dirtier design.

You're right in thinking Hybrids "aren't all that" from their construction to their death, in that respect. It's well known that the batteries for a Prius have travelled half way around the world before they're even fitted, and then the car has to be shipped everywhere too. And then you've got to dispose of them somehow at the end of the car's lifecycle (or when they need replacing during the car's lifecycle).

The physical size of cars plays a factor too. A massive luxury SUV uses more raw materials than a tiny, under-equipped supermini, as well as taking longer to build and using more energy for building bigger engines, bigger seats...bigger everything. So even if by some miracle an SUV did 60mpg like a little 1.0 supermini, it still wouldn't be as "green".

EDIT:

This is why the original Insight rules. (Well, it isn't really, but talk about strings to it's bow)...

The Oaktec Honda Hybrids employ modified hybrid energy recovery systems and Continuously Variable Transmission to give class-winning performance allied to exceptional fuel efficiency. In its last competitive outing in 2008 the EEMS-supported Honda Insight rally car entered a fuel economy trial where at 82 miles per gallon it easily recorded the best result of any car in the event.

Oaktec driver and team boss Paul Andrews comments, “the modifications we have made to the hybrid energy recovery system both increases performance and fuel efficiency at the same time. It is really a case of having your cake and eating it! The more waste energy we claw back the more we can use to make the car faster or to deploy to the electric drive to save fuel. This car just keeps getting better and the CVT transmission makes it fantastic to drive!”

Source

Oaktec's website is here. Interesting how they can make the car even more efficient, whilst increasing performance. It'll be interesting to see whether they procure a new Insight at some point...

 

[niky]

Remember the infamous cradle-to-grave study that put an H2 as being more environmentally friendly than the Prius due to the overall lower cost of production?

The one that put an arbitrary lifespan limit on the Prius while making the H2 live ten times as long?

---

Mhmmm... Land Rover bodies... I was talking with an uncle while he was considering a car purchase... a Jaguar XJR. Knowing he was a collector, I remarked: "In fifty years, when you can't run it anymore, you can just put it up on a pedestal for display."... Aluminum rocks.

 

[Philly]

Has anyone ever done a study that factors in the manufacturing process and the life of the car into the environmental equation, and also the manufacturing process of making a gas-powered and/or diesel powered normal car and its life span?

I'm not yet convinced that hybrids are cleaner or more efficient when you factor all that stuff in.

That link to the Prius forum I had a few posts back had something that took that into account for it's impact for the first 5 years of ownership. Needless to say the Prius wasn't all too great. But for some reason the 2.5 Jetta was worst by far.

Although I think in Joey's old thread somebody figured that a HUMMER H2 was greener than a Prius for the first good chunk of miles or something.

 

[Tornado]

Needless to say the Prius wasn't all too great. But for some reason the 2.5 Jetta was worst by far.

While undoubtedly not the made-up reasoning that Prius owners probably use, a 2.5 Jetta is a diesel, and it is a VW. Neither of which being particularly cheap to drive individually.

 

[homeforsummer]

While undoubtedly not the made-up reasoning that Prius owners probably use, a 2.5 Jetta is a diesel, and it is a VW. Neither of which being particularly cheap to drive individually.

See, in Europe neither of those are actually criticisms. I've lost count of the number of times I've read little stories about someone's Volkswagen diesel doing 500k miles, 1m km, 1m miles 1m+ miles etc. I remember when the Mk3 Golf was still out there was a story about a Mk2 owner who'd done over a million kilometers in their car, and VW bought it from them to examine and gave them a brand new Mk3 diesel!

Nobody finds the sideways Insight cool? Pfft, you're all so hard to please

 

[FoolKiller]

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but the reason they look like they do is because it's close to the optimal shape aerodynamically for something that can carry five people and luggage. If it looked like everything else, then it'd be sacrificing a vital aspect of it's efficiency.

It's all about the teardrop, nature's most aerodynamic shape. To make a car as aerodynamic as you can, ideally you want to be following this shape.

I get why they look the way they do. Go back to when you explained that and you will see that I said it before you posted all the research.

But if the body design is that effective then what the heck are people paying thousands of extra dollars for under the hood? We've seen the eco-tuners who get more from their combustion-only compacts than any hybrid, so why aren't we putting those thousands of dollars into a factory delivered eco-tuned car and not this stupid tech under the hood?

We have proven the greenies will by fugly cars, so why not make sub-compacts with an even more teardrop design than the Pious and Hindsight?

Has anyone ever done a study that factors in the manufacturing process and the life of the car into the environmental equation, and also the manufacturing process of making a gas-powered and/or diesel powered normal car and its life span?

I'm not yet convinced that hybrids are cleaner or more efficient when you factor all that stuff in.

There were some reports that showed after the shipping (nearly makes a trip all the way around the globe) and refining of the nickel used in the batteries that in its lifetime the Prius actually had a greater impact on the environment than a Hummer. But that was all just blogger talk and nothing scientific, at least I couldn't find the scientific backing.

The one that put an arbitrary lifespan limit on the Prius while making the H2 live ten times as long?

If by arbitrary you mean the expected lifespan of the car (100,000 miles) . And no, they didn't say the Hummer would last ten times longer, they said three times longer, based on quoted life expectancy (300,000 miles). If they gave the Prius the same lifespan it would only add to its total impact, making the comparison even worse.

But, as I said, it was far from scientific, and really got started by bloggers, so it hasn't really met any scientific standards.
Here's an article on it:
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188

 

[homeforsummer]

But if the body design is that effective then what the heck are people paying thousands of extra dollars for under the hood? We've seen the eco-tuners who get more from their combustion-only compacts than any hybrid, so why aren't we putting those thousands of dollars into a factory delivered eco-tuned car and not this stupid tech under the hood?

I do agree with you: after all, I'm fairly sure a small (say, CRX/MX3-sized) city car with a diesel engine and the kamm-back teardrop shape would be very efficient indeed, likely more so than the Prius. However, this leads me onto your next question:

We have proven the greenies will by fugly cars, so why not make sub-compacts with an even more teardrop design than the Pious and Hindsight?

I don't doubt that people truly interested in green technology would buy cars with an even more teardropped shape (I certainly would) - as you mentioned, the eco-tuners are bodging their own cars like that (a couple of Civics on the ecomodder site I mentioned have full teardrop tails) and if a manufacturer produced a low-price car like that they'd be snapped up. If I had the money lying about, I'd love to drop something like VW's 3-cyl turbodiesel into an efficient bodyshape like an MX3 with much of the weight stripped out to see how much mileage I could get from it. If you can get 70mpg from a VW Lupo with that engine, which is quite tubby for a small car, then a lighter, sleeker car with the same engine should be very impressive.

Unfortunately for people open-minded enough to consider more radical shapes, manufacturers are geared rather more towards cars that will sell in great numbers. The Prius thing has kind of snowballed - the original Prius didn't sell that well and nor did the original Insight, but once it caught on that celebrities were buying Priuses then those with enough money bought them too because they liked the "image" of saving the planet - perhaps ignoring that their huge homes consume vast amounts of energy every year so buying a Prius would make next to no difference. More and more people bought into the "image" of being green and the Prius slowly became mass-market, which is what the new Insight is tapping into.

If a manufacturer built a teardrop car out of the blue, only a hardy few would buy it, because for the majority the styling would be too "different" and the model would fail. That would spoil everything because once they got their fingers burned, they probably wouldn't return to the concept again. So I'd rather they do go in slowly, or let companies like Aptera try the radical stuff to test the water.

With cars like the Prius and Insight, people are slowly getting used to the styling, and are prepared to put up with a slightly odd shape for the technology they're getting. It wouldn't surprise me if cars with regular engines slowly start taking on the more familiar shape of these two... and then we might see a Prius or Insight with an even more teardropped shape as their novelty starts to wane...

 

[FoolKiller]

I agree with most of what you said, but have to comment on this.

the original Prius didn't sell that well

That is like saying the Wii doesn't sell as many as it should. Not having a supply does not mean there is no demand. They made a very limited number of Prii, and so the sales numbers don't look big. Do not confuse that with cars were sitting in the lots untouched. My brother was on a six-month waiting list to get his.

 

[YSSMAN]

Wasn't the original Prius only available in limited numbers, and even then, limited markets at the time? I seem to recall it being expensive as well... Despite looking like the Toyota Echo. Whether or not we like the Prius, Toyota did a good job designing their second generation HSD program to not only make it cheap (also flexible), but as a halfway decent alternative to the normal car jazz that most of us are used to.

As Toronado pointed out, the Corolla still makes a heck of a lot more sense by days end, and most-certainly, I'd probably buy a "normal" petrol car long before a Hybrid (well, maybe not with the Fusion). But, Toyota has done a wonderful job of keeping the car's price down, production levels up, and keeping public interest tied to the car. Chances are that it will continue with the Prius 4.0 later this year, although since it is rather hideous compared to the Insight, its anyone's guess as to how well it will do.

That and the tax credits are out on Toyotas and Hondas. There is only a short while left before they dry up on Ford's as well. Time for GM to make good on their promise for a Two-Mode Hybrid car!

 

[Keef]

I remember reading a National Geographic article about battery production. They mentioned how the area around the refinery for miles and miles was just a wasteland. Everything was dead because of all the chemicals and pollution emitted by the factory. I think the place they were talking about in that little tidbit was in Canada. They had a picture of the place and it didn't look too inviting. I've come under the impression that battery production is one of the most environmentally destructive processes we humans have ever come up with.

 

[Jim Prower]

I believe the argument now is that they put scrubbers and the like on the plant: that damage was done years ago.

 

[niky]

The argument (pro-Prius) against the dubious cradle-to-grave comparison to the Hummer is that:

1. the nickel mine pollution occured before modern anti-pollution methods were put in place, and nickel is fully recyclable.

2. Ten times is an exaggeration, yes ( ), but three times is still an exaggeration. From reports by private Prius owners and corporations, the Prius will run an awfully long time. The stop-start feature and the electric assist actually lengthen the life-span of the engine (and Japanese four-bangers can last about 300,000 miles without an overhaul) and other items... brake pad wear is nearly non-existent on a hybrid, for example. And effective battery life in real-world use is much longer than the study assumes.

While I do agree that outsourcing and shipping adds to the final impact of the product, you have to consider what percentage it adds. Do you credit the emissions for the entire ship to the part, or base it on shipping costs, assuming fuel use (and therefore, pollution) based on that?

Of course, the most ecologically friendly way to build any car is to build it from the ground up from materials and parts sourced locally, but the need to meet "local content" rules in many countries and the high cost of labor in others makes this problematic, from a price-point perspective.

And you have to consider which is more ecologically responsible... shipping parts in huge batch-loads from one central facility, or having multiple facilities around the world producing smaller batches while using up more energy (producing more emissions, given similar environmental laws all around... a very optimistic assumption, though) than a single facility?

 

[Eric.]

I remember reading a National Geographic article about battery production. They mentioned how the area around the refinery for miles and miles was just a wasteland. Everything was dead because of all the chemicals and pollution emitted by the factory. I think the place they were talking about in that little tidbit was in Canada. They had a picture of the place and it didn't look too inviting. I've come under the impression that battery production is one of the most environmentally destructive processes we humans have ever come up with.

Sure it wasn't this?

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, Toyota Has Some Insight on the Cheap Hybrid Issue Too

According to the ever-flowing and always active rumormill, Toyota may be working on a new low-cost hybrid to do battle with the revived Honda Insight, which is a bit smaller than its rival from Toyota and undercuts its price by a few thousand dollars (or a few million yen). Likely due in no small part to its low point of entry, Honda managed to move 18,000 Insight hybrids in Japan in its first month on sale, which is well above the automaker's early projections.

The new hybrid from Toyota would use similar hybrid components as the Prius but would use a smaller engine and cost 20-30% less. Even if these rumors are true, Toyota still plans to continue selling its previous-generation Prius in Japan for at least the 2010 model year alongside the new model, which features better performance from an enlarged 1.8-liter engine while still managing to reduce fuel consumption. So far, there's no indication that Toyota will sell a lower-cost hybrid model in the U.S.

It doesn't seem all that outrageous, but then again, I guess I'm uncertain of how many sales they're going to be able to pull of with a Corolla-sized (or smaller?) Hybrid. But, now that I really think about it, maybe it makes more sense than I think. It seems like there were rumors of an HSD-equipped Yaris before...

 

[Eric.]

Well, Toyota Has Some Insight on the Cheap Hybrid Issue Too



It doesn't seem all that outrageous, but then again, I guess I'm uncertain of how many sales they're going to be able to pull of with a Corolla-sized (or smaller?) Hybrid. But, now that I really think about it, maybe it makes more sense than I think. It seems like there were rumors of an HSD-equipped Yaris before...

It seems like that would be far more appropriate for Japan, as the Prius is probably considered a mid-size car relative to everything else (Cubes, and such, Kei cars)

 

[FoolKiller]

2. Ten times is an exaggeration, yes ( ), but three times is still an exaggeration. From reports by private Prius owners and corporations, the Prius will run an awfully long time. The stop-start feature and the electric assist actually lengthen the life-span of the engine (and Japanese four-bangers can last about 300,000 miles without an overhaul) and other items... brake pad wear is nearly non-existent on a hybrid, for example. And effective battery life in real-world use is much longer than the study assumes.

Like I said, it was all blogger science, which is far from real science.

 

[Philly]

While undoubtedly not the made-up reasoning that Prius owners probably use, a 2.5 Jetta is a diesel, and it is a VW. Neither of which being particularly cheap to drive individually.

Naw. The 2.5 is a gas engine. The Diesel is a 2.0.

And as for the emissions from the whole production process and everything, look at the like I posted a few days ago in this thread. They have a comparison of CO2 output from production and things there.

One thing that can be taken from the new, smaller Prius is that Toyota is now in defense mode. And that is a good sign for Honda.

 

[Keef]

Sure it wasn't this?

As an aside from that thread, you mentioned the Prius as being a city-car. Well, Toyota, I've got news for you. This is America, and we have highways. Prius + 80mph American Idiot = Should have bought a used Si like me for a third the price, and which actually has some performance potential and gets the same mileage at those lofty speeds.

Good luck getting your average American driver to feather the gas pedal to stave off the gas engine. Seriously, I haven't seen it yet, and I've driven near Prii in traffic many a time.

Thus, diesel. Immensely efficient during idle, which we Americans do quite often, and also immensely efficient pretty much any time, including cruising at 80mph down the highway. They can also be made quite potent, giving people that in-traffic thrust they desire--while being immensely efficient--and satisfying tuners' thirst for powah--while being immensely efficient. Plus, we already know how to make diesel fuel. No need spending bazillions designing some complex hybrid system that requires a technician and an electrician to work on. We've been doing the diesel thing forever. Iron block, 20,000psi injectors, high compression, huge turbo boost, and a particulate filter. A 20 year old just figured it out.

 

[Eric.]

I got an email from Honda today saying that the 2010 Insight is now available. Since when can you sell MY2010 cars in March of 2009?