Honda Insight + Hybrid Chatter: What the CR-Z should have been all along - Post 288

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Jalopnik Has a Big Thingy on the European Spec Model

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Outside of the Ford Fusion Hybrid, I believe this is the only other Hybrid I'd even be mildly interested in. Good job on Honda's behalf...
 
I like the way the instrument panel is done. But I am wondering why an automatic car with no hopes of being driven spiritedly needs a rev counter.

The outside looks a bit goofy. I don't really like the way the rear lights integrate with the window and from the front it looks like a bit of a minivan that's trying to be small.
 
I think thats more or less the global corporate "look" for Honda that they're extending a bit on the Insight.

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...etc...
 
The Americans Are Driving the Prius-Killer

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Jalopnik has their first review of the Insight up, and the news is good. Its actually a pretty normal car, looks pretty good, and drives pretty well. What Honda is telling us isn't bad either. They want to start pricing around $18,500 ($2,500 less than the Prius), and Honda is talking about 40+ MPG in town and on the highway, easily.

I can't complain much. If they're going to pull it off for cheap, more power to them!
 
We Have Pricing!

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Jalopnik
The all-new 2010 Honda Insight is now the cheapest new hybrid in the US, with a starting price of $19,800 before $670 destination, license, registration and smug tax.

For this amount of change you'll get the Honda Insight LX, which gets a city/highway fuel economy figure of 40/43 MPG, comes standard with ABS and features an AM/FM/CD/Aux Input stereo system. Upgrade to the $21,300 EX and you'll get stability control, heated mirrors, paddle shifters and other equipment. Not standard, but available on the EX, is Honda's satellite-linked Nav system.

Prius better recognize.
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It sounds like the regular model comes pretty reasonably equipped, and the price isn't bad either. Considering that it drives more like a car, it really is becoming a cracking good model against the Prius. If I wasn't so enamored with the Fiesta, there seems to be a reasonable possibility that I could consider saving my pennies for an Insight.

...Or just buy a used, super-cool, two seat model...
 
YSSMAN
...Or just buy a used, super-cool, two seat model...
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Do that. More fun, better economy, looks better (subjectively), cheaper, and just so much more clever. They can work on powertrains and giving it five seats and a fancy CVT gearbox as much as they like, but compared to the original with it's aluminium construction, a manual tranny option, focused aerodynamics and tiny frontal area, it just seems rather unimaginative.
 
YSSMAN
It sounds like the regular model comes pretty reasonably equipped, and the price isn't bad either.
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Define reasonably equipped. Unless you have more info than you posted it sounds like it has ABS and a CD player. That is the going standard for sub-compacts like a Yaris at this point.

I'm still not sold that this will be too much different from a Prius. Sure, you can drive it like a "normal" car, but will it get the fuel mileage it advertises if you do? Basically, normal driving, for me, in my VW gets me in the 30mpg range advertised. If I drive this Insight the same way will that happen? I have yet to see a hybrid that got its advertised fuel mileage without driving it like a tool.
 
FoolKiller
I have yet to see a hybrid that got its advertised fuel mileage without driving it like a tool.
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The previous Insights got fantastic economy pretty easily - I've got an Autocar article where they had one as a long-termer, where they didn't get less than 55mpg (UK) when it was still in the running-in stage, brand new. In the first few thousand miles they averaged 63mpg. And Autocar aren't really known for their slow, fuel-sipping driving.

Incidentally, driving economically is no more "driving like a tool" than spending all day hitting the redline is... in my own opinion it's less so.
 
FoolKiller
I have yet to see a hybrid that got its advertised fuel mileage without driving it like a tool.
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It seems that every hybrid owner drives their car like a tool, so we will never know. Road and track had their hands on a Prius a while ago and they managed to get 41 mph out of it. So the EPA overestimated that car by a good margin it seems.

Interesting though, that the Jetta TDI was incredibly underestimated by the EPA. That car is capable of 44/38 while the EPA put it at 41/30. Maybe the feds have something against diesel, especially with taxes on diesel being more than taxes on gasoline?
 
homeforsummer
Incidentally, driving economically is no more "driving like a tool" than spending all day hitting the redline is... in my own opinion it's less so.
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When someone is obviously paying more attention to their MPG gauge than they are the road, it defines driving like a tool. Based on my experience, many, many Prius drivers (in particular) do this very thing.
 
homeforsummer
Incidentally, driving economically is no more "driving like a tool" than spending all day hitting the redline is... in my own opinion it's less so.
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One, I only ever hit the redline if I mis-shift, which is rare. Two, by driving like a tool, I mean the lady doing 60-65mph in the passing lane of an interstate with a 70mph speed limit. Yes, lady, I know your hybrid is pointless on the highway, but maybe you shouldn't have bought one when you drive 30 miles one-way on the interstate every day.

Or on the city streets when the hybrid is going 10 under because the driver doesn't want the gas engine to kick in at all. If you have to change your driving habits to justify the car then don't buy the gorram car.

I want a car that allows me to drive how I want to drive, still be enjoyable, and has affordable fuel mileage. If it gets even better fuel mileage then yay for me. I do not want tools holding up traffic during rush hour because they want to make a political statement with their car.

Philly
It seems that every hybrid owner drives their car like a tool, so we will never know. Road and track had their hands on a Prius a while ago and they managed to get 41 mph out of it. So the EPA overestimated that car by a good margin it seems.
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Road and Track still forgot to add a bike/kayak rack to adjust for the additional drag. My brother squeezes maybe 32 out of his Prius on the interstate because of his kayak rack. It also gets very noisy.

Interesting though, that the Jetta TDI was incredibly underestimated by the EPA. That car is capable of 44/38 while the EPA put it at 41/30. Maybe the feds have something against diesel, especially with taxes on diesel being more than taxes on gasoline?
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Don't forget the couple that got 58 out of theirs. Of course, they were probably driving like a tool.

Honestly, I just consider the EPA estimates as a rough guess. I have had cars that got significantly less under my driving and others that have gotten over.
 
TheCracker
As long as i'm not stuck behind it.
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If someone's being slow enough to be a nuisance out of town then you can generally overtake unless you're really unlucky. I'm much more irritated by cretins in hot hatches and BMWs/Audis etc sitting three inches from my bumper when I can't sodding go anywhere. The sort of morons who race up to traffic lights and then brake at the last minute, instead of just coasting up to them and not even needing to stop.

FoolKiller
One, I only ever hit the redline if I mis-shift, which is rare. Two, by driving like a tool, I mean the lady doing 60-65mph in the passing lane of an interstate with a 70mph speed limit. Yes, lady, I know your hybrid is pointless on the highway, but maybe you shouldn't have bought one when you drive 30 miles one-way on the interstate every day.

Or on the city streets when the hybrid is going 10 under because the driver doesn't want the gas engine to kick in at all. If you have to change your driving habits to justify the car then don't buy the gorram car.

I want a car that allows me to drive how I want to drive, still be enjoyable, and has affordable fuel mileage. If it gets even better fuel mileage then yay for me. I do not want tools holding up traffic during rush hour because they want to make a political statement with their car.
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Toronado
When someone is obviously paying more attention to their MPG gauge than they are the road, it defines driving like a tool. Based on my experience, many, many Prius drivers (in particular) do this very thing.
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To be honest, that doesn't really happen as much in the UK. We have fewer hybrids (and of those that I see, most are Lexus RX300s), and people buy them here so much as a statement that they don't even seem to care if they get crappy economy so much, so drive at the same speed as everyone else (if not faster, if the Priuses that fly past me on the motorway are concerned, when I'm already doing 80).

But still, I regularly get well north of 40mpg just by driving with economy in mind, yet apart from the aforementioned tailgating idiots (who'd do the same even if I was driving like Schumacher), I never hold anyone up. I'd certainly not class myself as a tool, even though I've not seen less than Ford's quoted average mpg for about two years.

Re: the red line comment, I wasn't aiming that directly at you FK, it was just a general comment aimed at those who seem to race around everywhere, regardless of whether it's past a school, on a main road or on a motorway. What we call chavs in the UK, basically.
 
homeforsummer
If someone's being slow enough to be a nuisance out of town then you can generally overtake unless you're really unlucky. I'm much more irritated by cretins in hot hatches and BMWs/Audis etc sitting three inches from my bumper when I can't sodding go anywhere. The sort of morons who race up to traffic lights and then brake at the last minute, instead of just coasting up to them and not even needing to stop.
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I don't mind them so much out of town. Like you said, you can always overtake them when the opportunity arises. It's the ones in town who insist on traveling at 5mph below the limit everywhere or pull upto a red light so slowly (probably driving an auto) that i'm constantly on and off the clutch whilst they're creeping up to the lights at 0.03mph.

I blame the retired. They've all day to do whatever mundane chores they've set themselves to do, but they insist on traveling during rush hour and then wonder why everyone else on the road is stressed out and frustrated with them. They drive about like their trousers are on fire, just like everyone else, up to their 65th birthday, then within a week of them retiring they've transformed into Mr Magoo!!!
 
FoolKiller
If you have to change your driving habits to justify the car then don't buy the gorram car.
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QFT. Hybrids do make sense in the city where you're always stopping and starting and never going very fast at all. I never understood the people who buy them in the Midwest because there is a lot of going and not much stopping, which is the area hybrids excel. So the kind of driving that they were designed for just doesn't exist here.

Road and Track still forgot to add a bike/kayak rack to adjust for the additional drag. My brother squeezes maybe 32 out of his Prius on the interstate because of his kayak rack. It also gets very noisy.
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:lol:. With the amount of drag that the rack adds, and the amount of drag the car was designed for, I'm sure that little engine has to work very hard to keep the car going.

Don't forget the couple that got 58 out of theirs. Of course, they were probably driving like a tool.

Honestly, I just consider the EPA estimates as a rough guess. I have had cars that got significantly less under my driving and others that have gotten over.
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The Jetta TDI does very well at highway cruising. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get upper 40s, maybe 50s just doing normal highway driving. You can probably get 58 by going at the most efficient speed of the car, but that usually involves driving like a bit of a tool. One magazine managed 44 going through the mountains in California.

homeforsummer
If someone's being slow enough to be a nuisance out of town then you can generally overtake unless you're really unlucky. I'm much more irritated by cretins in hot hatches and BMWs/Audis etc sitting three inches from my bumper when I can't sodding go anywhere. The sort of morons who race up to traffic lights and then brake at the last minute, instead of just coasting up to them and not even needing to stop.
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It happens in big cities like Seattle, especially ones with lots of greenies in them. I've gotten stuck behind them going slow in the only lane that would be moving at a decent pace. It happens, but they still are a nuisance when they're sitting in the middle lane going slower than all the traffic around them is going faster and everyone has to dodge the thing.

But then again you also have drivers like my mom who will slam on the brakes just because the traffic trying to get off the offramp three lanes over is slowing down.
 
TheCracker
I don't mind them so much out of town. Like you said, you can always overtake them when the opportunity arises. It's the ones in town who insist on traveling at 5mph below the limit everywhere or pull upto a red light so slowly (probably driving an auto) that i'm constantly on and off the clutch whilst they're creeping up to the lights at 0.03mph.
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Agreed. But bascially all of that is something that happens regardless of whether they're trying to get good economy or not :)
 
Are these things really more green/economical etc than a modern Euro5 compliant diesel with stop/start?
 
Stotty
Are these things really more green/economical etc than a modern Euro5 compliant diesel with stop/start?
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Shush, as every car maker knows, us Americans cannot comprehend this new fangled technology you speak of.
 
LOL

I was being somewhat serious as my (admittedly ignorant) impression of hybrids is they are great for their owners egos, but in reality, are being beaten hands down by the top diesels... for example, a BMW 118d with stop start has an official combined consumption average of 63mpg (so probably low/mid 50's in reality), emits 119g/km CO2 and manages 0-60 in 9s and around 130mph top speed... are hybrids really greener than this?

Edit:

Just had a look at the Honda site, and apparently the Insight has a 1.3l petrol/hybrid engine with CVT giving 101k/km of CO2 and 64.2mpg... they aren't quoting any performance claims but I'm guessing something familiy sized with a 1.3l petrol engine tuned for economy and low emissions and featuring the worst gearbox design ever isn't really going to have any performance worth mentioning.

So they are greener from an emissions perspective, but there's no consumption advantage and a big performance disadvantage.
 
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I think part of the problem with diesels here is that there is a whole lot if other stuff coming out of the tail pipe in a diesel. Things like NO2 and sulfur. Do you guys have all that coming out in Europe?

I always thought that emissions regulations were the main cause of us not getting diesels here, and we're now getting more because diesel technology is advancing and getting cleaner.

There's two reasons pointing toward the government hating diesels. You've got the higher tax and emissions regulations that are going to make diesel vehicles too expensive, against regulations to sell, or both.
 
Philly
I think part of the problem with diesels here is that there is a whole lot if other stuff coming out of the tail pipe in a diesel. Things like NO2 and sulfur. Do you guys have all that coming out in Europe?

I always thought that emissions regulations were the main cause of us not getting diesels here, and we're now getting more because diesel technology is advancing and getting cleaner.
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With the particulate traps in TDIs they are fairly clean and my last issue of Driver was making it sound like the Jetta TDI had less emissions than a hybrid. I know the Audi R10 TDIs in ALMS were supposedly putting out near zero emissions.
 
Stotty
LOL

I was being somewhat serious as my (admittedly ignorant) impression of hybrids is they are great for their owners egos, but in reality, are being beaten hands down by the top diesels... for example, a BMW 118d with stop start has an official combined consumption average of 63mpg (so probably low/mid 50's in reality), emits 119g/km CO2 and manages 0-60 in 9s and around 130mph top speed... are hybrids really greener than this?

Edit:

Just had a look at the Honda site, and apparently the Insight has a 1.3l petrol/hybrid engine with CVT giving 101k/km of CO2 and 64.2mpg... they aren't quoting any performance claims but I'm guessing something familiy sized with a 1.3l petrol engine tuned for economy and low emissions and featuring the worst gearbox design ever isn't really going to have any performance worth mentioning.

So they are greener from an emissions perspective, but there's no consumption advantage and a big performance disadvantage.
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<typical American>
Of course hybrids are cleaner! have you ever been around a tractor trailer accelerating from a stop? You don't see this coming out of a Prius!

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</ta>
 
:lol:

I'm sure I read BMW have just officially released the 335D in the US... Some Americans might get a surprise when they test drive THAT particular diesel.
 
I'm guessing that the ALMS emissions figures are relative to other race cars. Because a LMP car that would qualify as a LEV on the road would be quite impressive. Although it would seem that if diesels were clean then they wouldn't need all the filters and things.

I found some emissions data from some Prius forum that compare the Jetta TDI, the Prius and other "competitors." It's a little difficult to make sense of. From a CO2 standpoint, the Jetta is actually really good beating things like the Camry hybrid and Fit. I wouldn't be surprised if the TDI took 3rd for emissions in the current US market. I would like to see some numbers for the other emissions though.

And :lol: at the bias of the analysis there.
 
Philly
Although it would seem that if diesels were clean then they wouldn't need all the filters and things.
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Of course if Petrol cars didn't emit cancer causing chemicals they wouldn't need catalytic convertors either ;) :)
 
Stotty
for example, a BMW 118d with stop start has an official combined consumption average of 63mpg (so probably low/mid 50's in reality), emits 119g/km CO2 and manages 0-60 in 9s and around 130mph top speed... are hybrids really greener than this?
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Basically, no in general driving, no in general town driving, yes in stop-start, London-type town driving.

The aforementioned BMW 118d with stop start will get excellent economy most of the time, but in stop-start driving the stop-start function won't really be a benefit as you're still moving, just very very slowly. In these conditions, the Prius et al will be running on electricity only as it'll only ever need low speeds and light throttle in bumper-to-bumper traffic. I'm not sure about the Insight however - the original one didn't have a solely electric mode but it did have stop-start and a tiny engine so wasn't bad in town anyway.

In virtually any condition where the engine is running though the BMW would use less fuel. Incidentally, BMW have recently launched the 116d (basically a de-tuned 118d) which is even more miserly with the diesel.

You mention the probable "real world" economy figures. On an average commute journey without too much traffic and without too many hills, a 118d would easily match it's claimed figures, I reckon. Unfortunately, many don't have an "average" commute (my Dad for example has a ridiculously hilly route to work) and the rest of the drivers will drive like pillocks, accelerating needlessly hard, going to higher revs than necessary, and braking at the last minute instead of looking ahead and anticipating things, which all ruin fuel consumption.

Even so, it'd be getting better economy than if a Prius driver did the same...
 

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