Honda to quit F1? - Now with added Brawn GP

[Only_in_f1]

08 parts are unlikely due to how close it is to the start of the season, not to mention how rubbish last years car was!

good point. Well then, looks like Brawn also have brains.

 

[Alex.]

To be fair they'd be faster using '79 Ensign parts

 

[Metar]

I'll be a pessimist and say he must be underweight. Though worst case scenario that does prove that times from the last 2 days were indicative that the bgp is a quick car.

The car itself may be underweight, but he did it during a stint that included three laps of 1'19.2 and another slightly higher time, plus in-out laps. 7 laps, that's above-average for a qualifying simulation. If we say the BGP001 is as fast as the others normally, it would have to be around 40kg-50kg underweight to shave off a whole second.

On both race-simulations and qualifying runs, it was between above-average to fast.

As Flav said "If you have no sponsors for your car, you come here to make big lap times. Otherwise you focus on the preparation of your machine,"

Except they are sorted out for 2009. They won't sign a sponsor right now - no sponsor will see a 1'19.1 and immediately want to sponsor the 2010 car, right? The sponsor will wait three more weeks, to see the pace in Melbourne, before they only consider sponsorship. If they're serious sponsors, they'll wait halfway through the season.

Also we're BrawnGP running some 08 aero of the car?

100% 2009 car. The 2008 car is ****, and obsolete. No team other than McLaren ran a 2008 part after unveiling the 2009 car.

I also think its looking increasinly likely they may even beat McLaren...its gone beyond sandbagging for them now..they are in serious trouble.

That's quickly becoming the consensus. James Allen wrote a piece on their complete lack of grip lately: Apparently, he noticed that the McLaren drivers can get back on the throttle only 30-40m later than the other teams. At the same time, he gave the example of a start-simulation that Ferrari and McLaren did - Kovalainen started with Raikkonen following, yet 300m later, it was the Ferrari ahead. They've also had troubles with aero-sensitivity, apparently - and Lewis put it in the wall today, again.


Note to all: Nobody knows anything. Remember that.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Note to all: Nobody knows anything. Remember that.

I really try. I keep thinking:

Brawn GP - Too good to be true

McLaren - Too bad to be true

 

[prisonermonkeys]

McLaren - Too bad to be true

Sooner or later, you develop a bad car. It happens to everyone from Ferrari to Honda. Probably doesn't help that Hamilton has take two trips into the landscape of late.

 

[Ardius]

Sooner or later, you develop a bad car. It happens to everyone from Ferrari to Honda. Probably doesn't help that Hamilton has take two trips into the landscape of late.

McLaren have got their cars wrong before as well.....they are not impervious to making mistakes, just like Ferrari and Williams before them.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Limits on testing is really going to hurt anyone with a car that is off the pace now.

I know they can do computer work and more limited wind tunnel work but more often than not things developed in these ways do not produce the expected results once they get on the track. I expect some interesting Friday Practice sessions.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

McLaren have got their cars wrong before as well.....they are not impervious to making mistakes, just like Ferrari and Williams before them.

Exactly. Remember when - back in the early 2000s - their engines were good for little more than lunching themselves? Once you get to the top, there's only one way you can go, and it seems to happen to individual teams once every few years. Given McLaren's history, I'd say that it's about their turn. Then again, Adrian Newey - who traditionally takes a season or two to get his head around new regulations - isn't with them anymore, so that may change.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Brawn & McLaren has some more testing to do next week in Jerez

One of them needs it more that the other.

11:07 interim Times from Barcelona

1. Rosberg (Williams FW31)-1:19.774 -34 laps
2. Barrichello (BrawnGP BGP001)-1:19.971 -48 laps
3. Vettel (Red Bull RB5)-1:20.678 -23 laps
4. Massa (Ferrari F60)-1:20.702 -30 laps
5. Kubica (BMW-Sauber F1.09)-1:20.740 -70 laps
6. Glock (Toyota TF109)-1:20.928 -47 laps
7. Buemi (Toro Rosso STR04)-1:21.151 -41 laps
8. Alonso (Renault R29)-1:21.339 -25 laps
9. Fisichella (Force India VJM02)-1:21.545 -39 laps
10. Hamilton (McLaren-Mercedes MP4-24)-1:21.717 -15 laps

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Brawn & McLaren has some more testing to do next week in Jerez

One of them needs it more that the other.

Oddly enough, I'm going to say it's Brawn who need that testing time. Sure, they're the top of the timing sheets when by all respects they should be at the other end, but that doesn't mean they're a sure thing. McLaren know how to test and they know how to turn around what looks like a bad platform; while Ross Brawn might, I gather most of the staff have remained there since Honda, and they could use some more work given their performance these past two seasons.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Nobody has the right to be at the front or be condemned to the back. These are new rules and new cars.

There is absolutely no reason at all why a team at the back can't jump to the front or one at the front to end up at the back.

Yes teams with more money and more experienced personnel have a better chance of being at the front but it's not guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Oh, of course. But I don't think a three-day test is indicative of a car's true performance. Unfortuntely, it's pretty much all Brawn is going to get, aside from the upcoming Jerez event.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Well, BrawnGP continues to dominate, Barrichelo just did a 1.19.196 (similar to the 1.19.127 Button did yesterday).

The McLaren seems to have improved, Hamilton did his fastest lap so far at 1.20.869 (almost 8 tenths faster than yesterday)

 

[Metar]

New testing-times:

1º  17  Rubens Barrichello        Brawn GP    00:01'19''266               79
2º  9   Nico Rosberg              Williams    00:01'19''774 00:00'00''508 70
3º  15  Timo Glock                Toyota      00:01'20''359 00:00'01''093 81
4º  3   Felipe Massa              Ferrari     00:01'20''677 00:00'01''411 57
5º  16  Sebastian Vettel          Red Bull    00:01'20''678 00:00'01''412 57
6º  4   Robert Kubica             BMW-Sauber  00:01'20''740 00:00'01''474 94
7º  11  Sebastian Buemi           Toro Rosso  00:01'21''013 00:00'01''747 62
8º  21  Giancarlo Fisichella      Force India 00:01'21''045 00:00'01''779 107
9º  1   Lewis Hamilton            McLaren     00:01'21''049 00:00'01''783 51
10º 7  Fernando Alonso            Renault     00:01'21''276 00:00'02''010 47

Then again, Adrian Newey - who traditionally takes a season or two to get his head around new regulations - isn't with them anymore, so that may change.

Erm, what? The general consensus is exactly the opposite of what you said. The last major regulation-change was in 1998 - when he produced a winner at McLaren. A minor change came in 2005, and the McLaren that year was the fastest car on the grid, quite unlike the 2004 McLaren.

Oddly enough, I'm going to say it's Brawn who need that testing time. Sure, they're the top of the timing sheets when by all respects they should be at the other end, but that doesn't mean they're a sure thing. McLaren know how to test and they know how to turn around what looks like a bad platform; while Ross Brawn might, I gather most of the staff have remained there since Honda, and they could use some more work given their performance these past two seasons.

The only reason Brawn needs testing more than McLaren is purely experience and reliability. The car works, and works well. 2007 and 2008 are entirely different cars compared to the 2009 car, and a brand-new team could've topped the sheets just as much as Ferrari.

McLaren, however, are truly struggling. Hamilton ran a two-lap qualifying simulation just a few minutes ago, and only ended up with a 1'21.0, just ahead of Alonso who blew his engine earlier today.

Oh, of course. But I don't think a three-day test is indicative of a car's true performance. Unfortuntely, it's pretty much all Brawn is going to get, aside from the upcoming Jerez event.

A three-day test during which you set the fastest time ever on the current configuration of the track, almost a second ahead of the competition?


EDIT: Even newer times:

1º  	17  	 Rubens Barrichello  	Brawn GP  	00:01'19''266  	 			79
.2º 	9 	Nico Rosberg 		Williams 	00:01'19''774 	00:00'00''508 	70
.3º 	15 	Timo Glock 			Toyota 	00:01'20''359 	00:00'01''093 	81
.4º 	3 	Felipe Massa 		Ferrari 	00:01'20''677 	00:00'01''411 	57
.5º 	16 	Sebastian Vettel 		Red Bull 	00:01'20''678 	00:00'01''412 	57
.6º 	4 	Robert Kubica 		BMW-Sauber 	00:01'20''740 	00:00'01''474 	94
.7º 	1 	Lewis Hamilton 		McLaren 	00:01'20''869 	00:00'01''603 	51
.8º 	11 	Sebastian Buemi 		Toro Rosso 	00:01'21''013 	00:00'01''747 	62
.9º 	21 	Giancarlo Fisichella 	Force I 	00:01'21''045 	00:00'01''779 	107
.10º 	7 	Fernando Alonso 		Renault 	00:01'21''276 	00:00'02''010 	47
.11º 	12 	Sebastian Bourdais 	Toro Rosso 	00:01'23''746 	00:00'04''480 	3

Edit: Bourdais improves to a 1'21, but Alonso gets back in and sets a 1'20.6, followed by a series of sub-1'21 laps - probably a long run.

Edit (3:46GMT): Holy ****, look at that:

1º  	17  	 Rubens Barrichello  	Brawn GP  	00:01'1[B]8''9[/B]26  	79

And look at that:



The McLaren is unbelievably slow off the line compared to the Ferrari - and that's not sandbagging, that's true lack of grip here.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Barrichelo entered the 1.18 .... this is un-be-lie-va-ble ..... !!!!

 

[nissan tuner]

1.18's? Thats insane!

have any more information on that lap metar?

 

[Metar]

It was a short run - a qualifying simulation - but it appears to be very much within the capabilities of the car. It was a four-lap run: Outlap, a 1'19.0 flat, and then the 1'18.9, inlap. It was set quite late in the session, but Vettel on a similar stint only managed to beat Alonso's 4th place by a small bit.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Wow, just when we nearly lost Barrichello, he shows himself just once again. Good god, all my hope of a good performing Toyota flew by when the times of the Brawn came in...

 

[Ardius]

Barrichello for the WDC? I would be very happy if Rubens finally managed to take the championship, he's one of those drivers I always felt deserved it but never managed it due to other factors.

But...keeping my head on, , its going beyond being too good to be true....how can the Brawn be so fast?

 

[darkfinal]

Just notice the cries of joy of my spanish fellowmen upon seeing Ferrari beat a McLaren.

Also, as usual, I'm not believing any of the conclusions coming out from these tests. Not even the apparent lack of grip of the McLaren. I can totally see them going back to the front row in Melbourne.

I just don't want to make illusions. As GREAT as it would be to watch Massa, Raikkonnen and Hamilton fighting for the midfield points while the 'lesser' drivers share plenty of podiums, it's just too... Beautiful to be true. Too utopic. Too satisfying. Too challenging and exciting. Ohmyfriggin'god I can't wait 'till Melbourne comes. ;_;

 

[Metar]

Ohmyfriggin'god I can't wait 'till Melbourne comes. ;_;

No one on this forum will disagree on this.

It's going to be the most interesting Melbourne ever.

 

[Touring Mars]

I fear I shall miss the opening race of the season, because it is my friend's 40th birthday night day out on the 28th, and the chances of me being compos mentis in the wee hours of the 29th are approximately nil

 

[darkfinal]

No one on this forum will disagree on this.

It's going to be the most interesting Melbourne ever.

More interesting than last year's, with only six (seven?) cars crossing the finish line? That should bring this race to the realms of pure epic!

... See, that's why I don't want to get overexcited by these testing results! The race might just come shy of awesome, or just great, and most of us would feel deceived by the results.

Only fourteen days...

 

[Ardius]

More interesting than last year's, with only six (seven?) cars crossing the finish line? That should bring this race to the realms of pure epic!

... See, that's why I don't want to get overexcited by these testing results! The race might just come shy of awesome, or just great, and most of us would feel deceived by the results.

Only fourteen days...

I think we will be seeing far few finishers this year actually, first race always has the reliability troubles and the drivers who didn't get used to the new cars/rules, etc.
This is especially so with the massive front wings, though there are the lucky people who drive for Red Bull

I don't want to be excited by the testing results....but its hard not to be when you see Button and Barrichello looking like they significantly raised chances again and McLaren looking to have a laughable year at the back of the grid. For once James Allen has been making some good comments about thier car saying it looks very hard to drive and the drivers look like they are struggling for grip.

 

[peterjford]

I fear I shall miss the opening race of the season, because it is my friend's 40th birthday night day out on the 28th, and the chances of me being compos mentis in the wee hours of the 29th are approximately nil

That is what DVR, DVD-R, VCR, etc are for. I will be recording the race and watching it a few nights later.

 

[Bram Turismo]

No one on this forum will disagree on this.

It's going to be the most interesting Melbourne ever.

I was looking forward to Melbourne. I thought Toyota had a good chance returning to its 2005 form, but with that Brawn car, the BMW and the Red Bull, I guess I'll be cheering for a mediocre team once again

 

[Ardius]

I saw this on another forum, so the thanks goes elsewhere, but some nice quotes to put this all in perspective:

FERRARI: Die sind eine Sekunde schneller als wir. Das ist doch gar nicht möglich", sagten Ferrari-Techniker unisono
Ferrari-technician: "They are one second faster than us. It can't be real."

RENAULT : "Als ich hier ankam war ich noch optimistisch, was unsere Chancen betrifft. Jetzt bin ich es nicht mehr"
Flavio: "When I arrived here I was still optimistic as far as our chances are concerned. Now I am not optimistic any more."

WILLIAMS : "Wenn sie die Rundenzeiten in Melbourne wiederholen können, die Button am Mittwochmorgen bei seinem Dauerlauf gezeigt hat, gewinnen Button und Barrichello den Grand Prix von Australien mit einer Runde Vorsprung"
Sam Michael: "If they can repeat these laptimes in Melbourne which were set by Button on Wednesday morning during his long stint, Button and Barrichello will win the Australian Grand Prix by one lap advantage."

Mercedes : "Das Team hatte viel mehr Zeit, das 2009er Auto zu entwickeln als alle anderen. Das zahlt ich jetzt aus"
Norbert Haug: "The team have had more time for developing the 2009's car than the others. It seems to pay off."

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/..._Favorit_der_aus_der_Pleite_kam_09031210.html

 

[darkfinal]

Would it be safe to say Honda/BrawnGP has pulled the most impressive and unexpected sandbagging ever? I'm starting to think it would.

 

[Touring Mars]

Nah...

 

[Ardius]

Just found an interesting picture too (thanks to AtlasF1):

Could this be the source of the massive advantage?

It seems people on other forums are comparing this to Prost back a few years ago when they ran an unsponsored car and did unbelievable lap times but when obviously it turned out the car really wasn't much.
I think I can trust Brawn and the Brackley team to be a bit more trustworthy than that and it seems rather self-defeating to run a car illegally underweight, as the car acts completely differently and all the testing data is effectively useless.
On other hand, it could be that all the other teams are sandbagging.

Its impossible to tell but at least Brawn have managed to turn around their doom and gloom situation quite spectacularly. And they've also turned this year's first race into one of the most eagerly-anticipated in a very long time.