How does the tranny trick work?

Ok, I have some really dumb questions here as I'm still trying to make sense of all this trans stuff. Using the below example, when is it best to shift, at max power or at max torque and is it the same answer for all cars. Question 2. what is the powerband in the example.

Example: ZONDA C12 S 7.3 / max power 676hp/6500rpm // max torque 622/4600rpm
 
Another test.
Buy DODGE VIPER SRT10 ACR '08
No oil change.
Buy RACING HARD TIRES
Buy CUSTOM TRANSMISSION
Put traction control at 0
Put Transmission automatic.

Then on tuning sheet A & B build this 2 gearboxes. Don't need to set individual ratios, only follow what is written on the picture for each.

acsrgears_zpse6e38b42.jpg



Again the same thing happen. The lower Final gear ratio win .It more or less the same advantage than the other 4WD car.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°
 
GTP_CargoRat
Ok, I have some really dumb questions here as I'm still trying to make sense of all this trans stuff. Using the below example, when is it best to shift, at max power or at max torque and is it the same answer for all cars. Question 2. what is the powerband in the example.

Example: ZONDA C12 S 7.3 / max power 676hp/6500rpm // max torque 622/4600rpm
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It's better to change gear with the max power


This is what a power band is

Basically, the power-band reffers to the entire range of the tachometer. (from idle to max rpm)

What you probably want to know is, where is the most power in my power-band?

Since the power-band is never really mentioned in the stats about a car, the car's peak hp is mentioned with a specific rpm that the hp is achieved at. However, sometimes even that stat is off since many cars in the game continue developing hp past the initial redline.

Basically, the power-band on most cars is between the mid-range rpm and the peak hp rpm.

When trying to figure out the power-band of a car, I would suggest trying a technique where you use different shift points.

Try shifting early and late, if either one comes out to be faster on a drag strip test, then you've got a start as to where you should shift, and that's why you would wanna know your power-band... so you know where to shift.

I hope I came close to saying what I meant to, but at the moment Im in a rush... so if this is still here when I get back from my exam I will try to make the concept clear. (even more so than this attempt.)
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So it's between it's mid range torque curve and peak hp of your zonda.
 
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GTP_CargoRat
Ok, I have some really dumb questions here as I'm still trying to make sense of all this trans stuff. Using the below example, when is it best to shift, at max power or at max torque and is it the same answer for all cars. Question 2. what is the powerband in the example.

Example: ZONDA C12 S 7.3 / max power 676hp/6500rpm // max torque 622/4600rpm
Click to expand...

I've tuned this car recently at 600PP also. After some test the best RPM to shift stay between 6100 and 6200 rpm maxi.
You need also set a higher top speed because you will work more in a medium rpm . So for me, i've setted a top speed up right of 420 kmh = 261 mph. Perfect for fast track. Sure you'll never get there , but this speed is 15 mph more or less than the speed you'll reach at the red zone. (where you have less power with this car).

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°
 
@lldantell: No offense, but I'm looking for an answer from one of the more experienced guys. Thanks for the reply, but as I've told you before, you really hold no credibility with me as a tuner.
 
praiano63
I've tuned this car recently at 600PP also. After some test the best RPM to shift stay between 6100 and 6200 rpm maxi.
You need also set a higher top speed because you will work more in a medium rpm . So for me, i've setted a top speed up right of 420 kmh = 261 mph. Perfect for fast track. Sure you'll never get there , but this speed is 15 mph more or less than the speed you'll reach at the red zone. (where you have less power with this car).

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°
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Thanks. I guess a better question would be, how do I go about figuring out the best shift point for other cars. Also, still having trouble understanding the powerband by looking at the graph/numbers for other cars.
 
GTP_CargoRat
Thanks. I guess a better question would be, how do I go about figuring out the best shift point for other cars. Also, still having trouble understanding the powerband by looking at the graph/numbers for other cars.
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Like say grenadeshark in this excelent thread.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5185550#post5185550

"In this game (and I say game, because it's not necessarily indicative of the real world), Power at high RPMs matters more than Power at low RPMs."
So you just need to check where the power is on the power graphic and depending of you gearbox ,try to stay the maximum inside this peak.
Shorter space between gears, more you will stay in this optimum rpm range.

Have a good night everybody.
 
praiano63
I've tuned this car recently at 600PP also. After some test the best RPM to shift stay between 6100 and 6200 rpm maxi.
You need also set a higher top speed because you will work more in a medium rpm . So for me, i've setted a top speed up right of 420 kmh = 261 mph. Perfect for fast track. Sure you'll never get there , but this speed is 15 mph more or less than the speed you'll reach at the red zone. (where you have less power with this car).
><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°
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I have a similar setup on my 550PP Zonda C12 and the difference between shifting at the redline and in the proper place as Praiano suggests is huge. More than 1 second per lap at Road Course Indy for example.

Also as Praiano suggests, I go strictly by the HP powerband in the upper gears. On many cars, the gears average 1000-1200 rpm per gear, so what I try to do is wrap that 1000 rpm around the peak of the power band, to give the best average power over that rev range. I would start at one side of the peak and go down the other before shifting. So if the peak is relatively uniform and it's at 7000 rpm, I'll downshift at 7500 rpm, taking it back down to 6500 rpm in the next gear. On cars with flatter powerbands it doesn't make as much difference, but it sure does on the peaky ones.
 
You shift based on average HP.
Say your car peaks 300HP @ 6500RPM, and it has 250HP at both 5500 and 7500RPM, with the peak in between.(of course)
You would then base your shift point off what RPM you'll drop to in the next gear.

Example:
Run 1st gear to 7500RPM(250HP) then shift to 2nd
You shifted into 2nd, RPM's down to 5500RPM(250HP, same as when you shifted)
3rd gear is closer to 2nd than 2nd is to 1st, so you shift earlier...
Shift into 3rd when 2nd is at 7300RPM(260HP), and start 3rd at 5700RPM(260HP)
Into 4th when 3rd reaches 7200, down to 5800 in 5th, 5th to 7100 starting 6th at 5900.

Hopefully that resembles something that makes sense to someone.
 
Johnnypenso
I have a similar setup on my 550PP Zonda C12 and the difference between shifting at the redline and in the proper place as Praiano suggests is huge. More than 1 second per lap at Road Course Indy for example.

Also as Praiano suggests, I go strictly by the HP powerband in the upper gears. On many cars, the gears average 1000-1200 rpm per gear, so what I try to do is wrap that 1000 rpm around the peak of the power band, to give the best average power over that rev range. I would start at one side of the peak and go down the other before shifting. So if the peak is relatively uniform and it's at 7000 rpm, I'll downshift at 7500 rpm, taking it back down to 6500 rpm in the next gear. On cars with flatter powerbands it doesn't make as much difference, but it sure does on the peaky ones.
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Ok, how do I go about finding what the proper place is on various cars? Thats the part I'm not understanding. You have further confused me.:lol: I guess you are going to have to simplify it more for me because I'm just not understanding it totally.

EDIT: Ok, thanks to CSLACR, I think I understand it now. Thanks CSLACR, you gave me the answer I was looking for. Now I got a grasp on things now.
 
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11111wp.png



Use the peak HP and TQ RPM's listed to help identify RPM amounts on the graph. After some trial and error you'll get a grasp for roughly where rpm increments are looking at the powerbands.
 
In the most simple form I can logically think of to portray what I beleive is trying to be explained... I can give you a fake example of a power curve like so:
Car max HP is 500HP at 9000RPM and I'll show you 3 RPM's within that same car.

8900rpm = 498hp
9000rpm = 500hp (peak)
9100rpm = 499hp

If I told you, that you could only chose TWO of the above RPM ranges, to keep your car in (by use of the transmission and shift points) would you chose the 8900-9000 range, or the 9000-9100 range?
Some people assume you always want to be riding the 'up' curve of the HP graph, but in reality, more power is more power, regardless of whether it comes before or after the peak. So, you'd actually rather use the 9000-9100 range, because you're 'averaging' more HP over the same range of RPMs (In this case, only a 100rpm range, but for a real example, it would be a 1000-1200 range like mentioned previously)
That clear it up any?
 
Adrenaline
In the most simple form I can logically think of to portray what I beleive is trying to be explained... I can give you a fake example of a power curve like so:
Car max HP is 500HP at 9000RPM and I'll show you 3 RPM's within that same car.

8900rpm = 498hp
9000rpm = 500hp (peak)
9100rpm = 499hp

If I told you, that you could only chose TWO of the above RPM ranges, to keep your car in (by use of the transmission and shift points) would you chose the 8900-9000 range, or the 9000-9100 range?
Some people assume you always want to be riding the 'up' curve of the HP graph, but in reality, more power is more power, regardless of whether it comes before or after the peak. So, you'd actually rather use the 9000-9100 range, because you're 'averaging' more HP over the same range of RPMs (In this case, only a 100rpm range, but for a real example, it would be a 1000-1200 range like mentioned previously)
That clear it up any?
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Yes indeed, you have further cleared things up for me. Thanks for the simple explanation. I guess I was making it more complicated than it really is.

@CSLACR: That photo further helps...alot. Thanks for taking the time to do that for me. Appreciate your help. Thanks to everyone else also for your replies. I understand fully now my questions and now I'm off to practice my new found knowledge. Thanks again guys. Peace.
 
CSLACR
11111wp.png



Use the peak HP and TQ RPM's listed to help identify RPM amounts on the graph. After some trial and error you'll get a grasp for roughly where rpm increments are looking at the powerbands.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's what I meant to say, much easier to understand with the picture..:sly:
 
Kilowatts and Newton Meters... I can't work like this CSL!!!
Not to mention that somehow 855 is lower on the graph than the 517. Unless that's a 3, in which case, I refer you to my original point, the pic is blurry, you fail!!
 
Adrenaline
Kilowatts and Newton Meters... I can't work like this CSL!!!
Not to mention that somehow 855 is lower on the graph than the 517. Unless that's a 3, in which case, I refer you to my original point, the pic is blurry, you fail!!
Click to expand...
The problem is that GT5 uses the exact same graph for all units, no matter if imperial or metric.

It's P = n*M(Nm)/9550 [kW] - (9550 to simplify it)
Metric system is actually the easiest to work with.


Btw, the shiftpoint is actually a little later than what CSL showed us:
12bolt-ShiftPoints.JPG

You shift at the point where the car makes more power in the next gear or simply as late as possible if the lines never cross eachother (graph doesn't show this because this example is from a dyno). First gear is messed up because of inaccurate dyno measuring, but you could also calculate the power-speed courves.
 
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CSLACR
See? I'm not so bad... :)
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No, your not. Never really said you were, just though at times you were taking digs at me but that was probably just my misunderstanding. I guess you just have to know what I have to deal with in real life to understand why I'm always on the defensive here. And with this being a forum with just type-written words, it makes it all the more easier for misunderstandings. Anyways, no hard feelings and I appreciate your help. You are now in my GTPlanet Tuners Hall Of Fame. :lol:
 
dr_slump
The problem is that GT5 uses the exact same graph for all units, no matter if imperial or metric.

It's P = n*M(Nm)/9550 [kW] - (9550 to simplify it)
Metric system is actually the easiest to work with.

Btw, the shiftpoint is actually a little later than what CSL showed us:

You shift at the point where the car makes more power in the next gear or simply as late as possible if the lines never cross eachother (graph doesn't show this because this example is from a dyno). First gear is messed up because of inaccurate dyno measuring, but you could also calculate the power-speed courves.
Click to expand...

000011r.jpg



I would not wait to shift past the point where power is equal between gears in this car at all, generally speaking. Based on the power curve/gearing that seems to be in place.

GTP_CargoRat
No, your not. Never really said you were, just though at times you were taking digs at me but that was probably just my misunderstanding. I guess you just have to know what I have to deal with in real life to understand why I'm always on the defensive here. And with this being a forum with just type-written words, it makes it all the more easier for misunderstandings. Anyways, no hard feelings and I appreciate your help. You are now in my GTPlanet Tuners Hall Of Fame. :lol:
Click to expand...
No worries, it happens. :lol:
 
CSLACR
I would not wait to shift past the point where power is equal between gears in this car at all, generally speaking. Based on the power curve/gearing that seems to be in place.


No worries, it happens. :lol:
Click to expand...
Like I said it's just a dyno graph, therefore the courves go too far. Oh and first gear is inaccurate because of the same reason. You can calculate the real power courves though, but I simply found no good pic.
 
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You're right, on further inspection that dyno is useless for this discussion.
I say that because they're short shifting, making more power in later gears than earlier, all kinds of funny stuff going on. :scared:
They're even revving it higher for shorter gear changes, so I guess everything is off there.

How about this - Shift in the micro second when you'll have 1 more HP in the next gear?
 
Perhaps this is a better one:
3775d1339028390-abarth-shift-points-fiat-abarth-shift.jpg

You shift as late as possible into all gears except 5th (maybe also a hair earlier into 4th).
 
Hey guys, just thought I'd stop by and say thanks again for the help. With my new found knowledge of transmissions and shift points, you all have helped me shave .250 off of my time in the current WRS TT using the Concept 1 Series tii '07 at Deep Forest. Seems I was shifting way to late for this particular car. I changed my trans settings and shift point and noticed the difference right away. Felt almost like I was cheating.:lol: I'm even seeing more time being left out on the track due to not getting my lines right. So, thanks once again to all you guys, really appreciate the help. Back at it. Peace.
 
after trying the tranny trick on fully tuned le mans prototypes it looked like moving the oddometer for speed in the lowest right worked better. i usually put it on 410 tp 440 dependind on the car. i think you might have to give these cars a special treatment to find out just how to put the transmission to have it perfect.
 

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