how to correct oversteer in GT5P Physics

[un_peacekeeper]

What really surprised me in GT5 was how easily cars will oversteer.
BMW Concept 1 with S2 tires will oversteer if you give it more than about 10% throttle in a corner, is this realistic?

Also when comparing N1 and R3 tires for example they feel almost the same, except for different levels of grip (N1 tires having worse rear tire versus front tire grip balance than R3's). Shouldn't R3 tires have quicker transient between grip and.. loss of grip as well?

N tires are normal (road legal) tires, and R tires are racing tires. Now, if you were the one desigining these racing tires, would you make them last as long as possible. And if you are making road tires, would you invest in stressed tire wear, or comfort?

They can't really be compared.

 

[Rocket Punch]

N tires are normal (road legal) tires, and R tires are racing tires. Now, if you were the one desigining these racing tires, would you make them last as long as possible. And if you are making road tires, would you invest in stressed tire wear, or comfort?

They can't really be compared.

Road legal doesn't automatically mean it is "N" tires. Almost all "R" compound tires are road legal, except for probably the Hoosier's.

 

[un_peacekeeper]

Road legal doesn't automatically mean it is "N" tires. Almost all "R" compound tires are road legal, except for probably the Hoosier's.

Note the difference between saying N tires in GT are road-legal tires IRL, and saying road-legal tires are N tires.


And are you telling me racing slicks are road-legal?

 

[SpyderVR4]

Completely slick tires are not legal, but in the US at least some R compound tires are legal. Some are almost slicks, just 2 grooves at 2/32 of an inch deep.

 

[Rocket Punch]

Road legal doesn't automatically mean it is "N" tires. Almost all "R" compound tires are road legal, except for probably the Hoosier's.

Note the difference between saying N tires in GT are road-legal tires IRL, and saying road-legal tires are N tires.


And are you telling me racing slicks are road-legal?

Well, I never said "slick" are road legal.

"R" compound does not automatically mean "slick"; Yoko A032R & A048, Kumho V700, Toyo RA-1 (which I have used for autocross and track days) are all street legal "R" compound tires and none of them are "slick". An example of a "slick" like, "D.O.T Legal" tire would be Kumho V710.

Almost all "R" compound tires are "D.O.T approved" but not all of them are "D.O.T Legal", like Hoosier's I mentioned.

Forgot to mention I am using standards.

 

[SpyderVR4]

Yeah, that picture is what I'm talking about.

 

[un_peacekeeper]

Well, I never said "slick" are road legal.

"R" compound does not automatically mean "slick"; Yoko A032R & A048, Kumho V700, Toyo RA-1 (which I have used for autocross and track days) are all street legal "R" compound tires and none of them are "slick". An example of a "slick" like, "D.O.T Legal" tire would be Kumho V710.

Almost all "R" compound tires are "D.O.T approved" but not all of them are "D.O.T Legal", like Hoosier's I mentioned.

Forgot to mention I am using standards.

And I forgot to mention that I am refering to "R" as used by GT and not IRL.

 

[The Cheef]

Oh, and someone gave me this one (http://www.amazon.ca/dp/0760305188/?tag=gtplanetca-20) as a gift, but i have never had a chance to finish it. Is it any good?

Speed Secrets is awesome! That book is a little bit easier to understand and digest for the average person looking to improve their lap times... That said though, Going Faster covers everything Speed Secrets covers and more but with more depth, technical analysis, and explanation... I would recommend Going Faster but Speed Secrets is a definite bargain at only $12.21 brand new on amazon... if you have neither and are looking for something smaller and less intimidating, then pick up Speed Secrets.

And as for problems with oversteer and understeer, Going Faster has a great chapter on car control that would help you out... alot...

 

[Uncle Harry]

Understeer and oversteer are descriptive terms for which end of the car loses grip first.
Understeer is when the front tyres lose grip first, Oversteer is when the rear tires lose grip first.
The loss of grip then creates either the front running wide in the corner, or the rear wanting to turn to much.

To counter the efffect you need to let the tires that have lost grip regain grip.
Undeersteer is controlled by a) reduces wheel angle and b) or backing of the throttle pedal. Hitting the brakes will put too much load back onto the allready overloaded front tires and is not recomended.

Oversteer is controlled by turning the front wheels on opposite lock, so if you are oversteering in a LHD turn you need to turn the wheel to the right. A small amount of gas will help keep the cars mass over the back wheels and aid with traction. If you brake the cars mass will move forward causing the rear tires to lose grip again or the possibility of causing loss of grip at the front as well as the rear.

In GT5P the physics are quiet well represented .

I can correct for understeer by either reducing wheel angle or reducing pressure on the throttle.

I can correct oversteer by opposite lock application of the steering while maintaining some throttle.
Any harsh application of throttle or brakes whilst the tail is sliding generally results in a major spin.

 

[JackB]

This one

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0837602262/?tag=gtplanet-20


Best book on racing and driving I have read (and I have read a lot), highly recommended.

Scaff

I also have Going Faster and another of the Skip Barber books. Really well done. They also sell a DVD. Additionally, I'd recommend Speed Secrets. I think there are 3 in the series (I have the 1st two).

The best training for oversteer and understeer is to practice on a skid pad. Wish they had one in GT. The Skip Barber DVD has a terrific session on a skid pad. It's all the basics of oversteer and understeer for front and rear wheel drive cars.

 

[shawtyoner]

I'm glad I did a search because I actually had the same question that was posted. I am well aware of physics in general and how it works overall, I am no pro however but I am a pretty decent GT gamer. All my driving is done with pro physics, aids off using G25.

I noticed this with the NSX on the HSR. On the final corner leading onto the straight, I approached it braking straight, but entered a lil faster then I should have. The rear began to step out, but not in any unmanageable fashion, almost a zero counter like powerslide. It then began to step out a lil farther then I wanted it to however and I began to counter a tad, without really giving any throttle, knowing that if I did, it would spin me more than likely. But the small amount of countering I did, led to the same result, the more I began to counter, the more the rear began to come around until finally I spun out completely. It has happened a couple of times to me.

I have corrected my driving to where I can prevent it from happening, but my question is why does that happen? It just comes down to me understanding something that I am not well familiar with I'm sure, but I too would love to know. GT5P has been amazing so far and I cannot get enough of it!

 

[homeforsummer]

In that situation it sounds a little like there is still too much inertia for the countersteering you are doing for it to bring the car back in line. You don't state whether you came off the brakes when the car started oversteering but if you back off the brakes more weight would transfer to the rear and give you more grip. The car is most likely to oversteer under hard braking into a corner because there is little weight on the rear.

Even accelerating slightly is sometimes enough to push the rear to the ground and stop the slide.

 

[thefraggle]

Please feel free to correct me if you want but the only real way to understand how understear and overstear work is to understand fully how momentum forces work at speed. You have to, as Scaff said, know how to ballance the weight of the car or else you wont be able to control it properly. the GT is a great car to practise shifting weight and in GT4 i found the best car to play with the weight of was the SLR.

 

[shawtyoner]

In that situation it sounds a little like there is still too much inertia for the countersteering you are doing for it to bring the car back in line. You don't state whether you came off the brakes when the car started oversteering but if you back off the brakes more weight would transfer to the rear and give you more grip. The car is most likely to oversteer under hard braking into a corner because there is little weight on the rear.

Even accelerating slightly is sometimes enough to push the rear to the ground and stop the slide.

At that point I was completely off the brakes. I hit the brakes going into the turn straight on, released carrying a bit more speed than intended, NSX began to powerslide a bit where in most cases, I would be able to catch it with a quick turn of counter steer, but in this case, I am assuming most of the weight is on the right front wheel. With ever so slight throttle input, I began to counter, and once I started, the back end would just keep sliding out no matter how much counter steer I gave it. The more I countered, the more it spun, no braking was involved. I wonder if I didn't counter, if all four wheels would settle and regain full grip again.

 

[panjandrum]

I noticed this with the NSX on the HSR. On the final corner leading onto the straight, I approached it braking straight, but entered a lil faster then I should have. The rear began to step out, but not in any unmanageable fashion, almost a zero counter like powerslide. It then began to step out a lil farther then I wanted it to however and I began to counter a tad, without really giving any throttle, knowing that if I did, it would spin me more than likely. But the small amount of countering I did, led to the same result, the more I began to counter, the more the rear began to come around until finally I spun out completely. It has happened a couple of times to me.

In theory, what you should have done is also give the car some throttle (how much depends on the car, tires, etc.) and it would have come back around. However, this doesn't seem to be modeled very well in GT5P, so unless you've done some serious suspension tuning you're generally hosed if you let the rear of an MR car out even a tad.

 

[Venari]

If you've got an NSX beginning to oversteer under brakes, you are, as mentioned, pretty much hosed.

This particular car (in real life) is a handful in this kind of 'abuse condition', there is an awfully dense, tall mass right between the wheels in that transverse DOHC VTEC V6. Engineers have made the car well balanced in minor transitions and high speed, but get the back too high with some yaw, and it's arse-passing-elbow time. I remember the Jaguar owned F-type mule NSXs being rather snappy.

In a car like the Lotus Esprit, the mass is stretched forwards more, so your initial breakaway point is higher, and your polar moment is (arguably) lower, so a progressive recovery is... 'more likely'.

I built a GTM Libra with a V6, and that car, without rollbars, was absolutely vicious under race conditions if you didn't have your fast hands on. I spun it more than once at the end of Bedford's main straight. There's no substitute for stupidity. I was turning in under huge braking forces, and although the short wheelbase would transmit all the information, and the rack was quick, it would simply snap faster than I could catch it. Answer: brake in a straight line, apply a balanced throttle to recover a decent pitch, turn and settle the car towards the apex, and deck it when comfortable. Controlled power oversteer was never a problem. Feeling the KV6 beginning to rotate you when the nose was down was brown trousers time.

 

[shawtyoner]

I actually forgot to put the R after NSX , thats the car I was driving. I agree with what you guys are saying. I fully understand that MR cars are very touchy if not driven smoothly and are the most difficult cars to master. What I still want to fully understand is this, if all four wheels are sliding, the rears a touch more than the fronts, without applying any throttle or breaks, why is it that the car will start to oversteer more once you start adding counter steer? And the more counter steer you add the more it spins until you finally have spun out completely. This is where I start to become confused.

 

[P3DGpitstop25]

from researching the internet, most sites instruct the proper way to correct an oversteer is to opposite lock and step on the accelerator(gas). But when i do this in GT5P, it makes my car oversteer even more, and then spin out.

also from my research, to correct understeer, you are supposed to step on the breaks, but in GT5P, if i step on the gas, the understeer is corrected.

why is GT5P acting in the opposite manner to real world car physics?
anyone find this same problem?

The best to do is to only play on pro settings. then stick to 1 car to start with and just keep playing about with it. Thats what I did at first. The one i am using at the moment is the S2000 GT1 turbo. It has taken me about 2 weeks to get the setting just right. And the good thing is when you know what to do with the setups. You can make it good on all the tracks with just a little tweak here and there.

Hope this helps.

 

[Greycap]

What I still want to fully understand is this, if all four wheels are sliding, the rears a touch more than the fronts, without applying any throttle or breaks, why is it that the car will start to oversteer more once you start adding counter steer? And the more counter steer you add the more it spins until you finally have spun out completely. This is where I start to become confused.

It isn't possible to catch every slide. If it was there would be no spin-outs in real life racing. When the inertia gets too strong there's nothing you can do to save it, only to slow down the rotation a bit.

This sounds very much a case like that, you're saying that the more you countersteered the more angle the car got. What I'm quite certain about is that the countersteering didn't cause the spin-out like you make it sound. Without countersteering it would have spun anyway, and probably quicker at that. The only action that might have saved the situation would have been a larger and faster countersteering accompanied by a very subtle acceleration, all timed precisely correctly, and it's entirely possible that even it wouldn't have helped.

 

[Joe43302]

All I can tell you is that of the few times I've been able to correct it, under pro physics in a RWD (Corvette or Viper), but I did was brake, correct out opposite slightly, and when the car pulls back around, gently accelerate while slowly letting the wheel recenter.

It's usually better just not to do it, for obvious reasons But it happens, I'm just sad to report that there isn't too much you can do when it does.

 

[shawtyoner]

It isn't possible to catch every slide. If it was there would be no spin-outs in real life racing. When the inertia gets too strong there's nothing you can do to save it, only to slow down the rotation a bit.

This sounds very much a case like that, you're saying that the more you countersteered the more angle the car got. What I'm quite certain about is that the countersteering didn't cause the spin-out like you make it sound. Without countersteering it would have spun anyway, and probably quicker at that. The only action that might have saved the situation would have been a larger and faster countersteering accompanied by a very subtle acceleration, all timed precisely correctly, and it's entirely possible that even it wouldn't have helped.

Thats what I was thinking, the inertia must have been too great from the start in order to save it. The slide felt minimal and progressive at first which is why i would only counter a bit, but once I had turned it just that little bit, the rear came around even more at that exact point, then I had to counter more but by that time it was gone. It was that split moment in time when I would counter and the rear would step out that was making me wonder. Thanks for all the replies and info, the game has been amazing as I said before, the Tii concept is amazing, I love that car!