How turning off all aids made me a better, faster driver.

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Has anyone made a video proving this? For example where for example stopping from 400kph in a veyron takes less distance with ABS to off vs ABS 1?

I will give that a go.

Depends how good you are in braking without aid The effect is most pronounced in racing condition and driver's skill also plays major part, but a good driver with good consistency will be at least brake as late or in certain situation brake later than ABS 1.

 

[Dusty1990]

It does. That's why race cars don't have abs on them. If you can control the breaking force and keep it near lock up with out getting them to lock, it will decelerate quicker.

And someone earlier said something about race brakes not being needed if you can lock up without them and he is 100% correct. Braking distance isn't dependant on how good the brakes are, but how much grip the tires have. And I think brake fade is in the game but it doesn't have any effect unless u are stopping from high speeds

Find this statement very hard to believe, IF that was the case the top guys would turn it off, they don't turn on aids because they lack skill, they turn them on because they can go quicker with them on.

 

[SKD420]

Its simple physics really, abs is designed to let you turn the car while on the brakes. And to do that it reduces braking force as you turn
the car. Stability is it's main goal, however if you are skilled enough to be able to control the car on the limit of loss of grip you will always be faster.

Depends how good you are in braking without aid The effect is most pronounced in racing condition and driver's skill also plays major part, but a good driver with good consistency will be at least brake as late or in certain situation brake later than ABS 1.

 

[SKD420]

Find this statement very hard to believe, IF that was the case the top guys would turn it off, they don't turn on aids because they lack skill, they turn them on because they can go quicker with them on.

They don't turn them off because it's much easier to be consistent. It's hard to drive on the limit. The more u can keep a car close to the limit, the more skill you have and the faster you will be. ABS doesn't allow you to get near the limit of the tires, because that's what it was designed to do. Learn something.

 

[Dusty1990]

They don't turn them off because it's much easier to be consistent. It's hard to drive on the limit. The more u can keep a car close to the limit, the more skill you have and the faster you will be. ABS doesn't allow you to get near the limit of the tires, because that's what it was designed to do. Learn something.

Don't tell me this, tell the top 10 guys in the world they lack skill, if they had more they'd go quicker with abs off, especially on the likes of Tsukuba seasonal where theres just 4 braking points....

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Don't tell me this, tell the top 10 guys in the world they lack skill, if they had more they'd go quicker with abs off, especially on the likes of Tsukuba seasonal where theres just 4 braking points....

The real problem is ABS in GT is not representation of real world ABS, it's simply a brake assist with stability aid.

snip..

At the same time, ABS OFF in GT6 remains a much better experience than in GT5 for all cars without Racing Brake Pads, because it seems that new physics and suspension model takes into concern actual mechanical properties of the braking-potential of a particular car (thus making ABS OFF driving more right) and it provides much more liviable and believable sensation.

**NOTE: - In my assessment, the *ABS* in GT series is not representative/simulation of the real-life ABS, it just uses that "name". ABS in GT is some kind of permanent braking assist *override* that not only prevents wheel-lock on the buffer-bases (dot doing what real ABS doing in the RL), but also have some invisible traction-control that nullify the suspension-modelling and equalizes unique characteristics of the vehicles resulting with the ability to turn while braking and never lose grip. It is an imposed as simple game-assist with adjustable level of assistance (1-10), it is not "simulation" of the RL ABS effect at all.

**NOTE #2: I am driving with Fanatec wheel and Fanatec CSPV2 pedals with load-cell and oil-damper - and still going through hell because of the Racing Brake Pads. I can't even imagine the horrors of braking with pedals that have no load-cell and especially the plastic pedals such as on DFP/DFGT wheels where sensitivity is probably 5X greater than on my set. Polyphony needs to fix this ASAP, it is the greatest current issue of GT6.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I was out on Willow Springs this morning doing some tuning on a BTR in the S class event.
I ran the first race with driving line on recorded my fastest lap thus far on that track in that car.

I turned the driving line off and ran it again, same setup. I was much less consistent than in the previous race but my best lap was about 8/10ths of a second faster than the best I had ran thus far in that car. I ran it a few more times but was unable to match the lap in the first race largely due to being spun out by AI cars, that BTR does not react well to being tapped while in a corner.

I did find that it forced me to pay more attention to my speed and the actual track and as a result I think i will be able to shave another second off of that time once I have a few more laps under my belt.

 

[RacingManiac]

Real world ABS is still faster....

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets9.html

You CAN out brake ABS system, but to do it every time, every braking zone, lap after lap in a race as the tire degrade and changes is obviously not easy. It just takes out the guess work and leave more focus on other task. Racing bans it because the sport is supposed to be a test of driving skills.

 

[eSZee]

well, just turned off driving line and doing the 24 minutes of Nurburgring. 9 minutes in and it's pouring rain and pitch black.
Was not a good idea.

 

[Dusty1990]

The real problem is ABS in GT is not representation of real world ABS, it's simply a brake assist with stability aid.

Who said it was? what we are trying to determine is whether having it turned off helps you stop quicker, looking at the top times suggests it doesn't.

 

[SKD420]

Real world ABS is still faster....

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets9.html

You CAN out brake ABS system, but to do it every time, every braking zone, lap after lap in a race as the tire degrade and changes is obviously not easy. It just takes out the guess work and leave more focus on other task. Racing bans it because the sport is supposed to be a test of driving skills.

That's exactly what I said. You can be faster without it, but most people due to their lack of ability won't be.

Real world ABS is still faster....

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets9.html

You CAN out brake ABS system, but to do it every time, every braking zone, lap after lap in a race as the tire degrade and changes is obviously not easy. It just takes out the guess work and leave more focus on other task. Racing bans it because the sport is supposed to be a test of driving skills.

That's exactly what I said. You can be quicker without abs, but most people won't due to their lack of ability.

The top times also have srf on too btw. If that is your sole basis for thinking abs is faster then you clearly have reading comprehension issues.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Who said it was? what we are trying to determine is whether having it turned off helps you stop quicker, looking at the top times suggests it doesn't.

Well, if you look at past GT5 TT, some of the quickest driver in the world have done top 3 or 5 times with no ABS, it's all in the driver skill, usually alien driver can drive without ABS as fast as with ABS 1 and they usually beat us mere mortals even without ABS.

 

[JogoAsobi]

So the first question is do you use a controller or wheel?
Input realism is very different for controllers and wheels.

My bet is that the top aliens can be fast with and without aids.
Personally, I use a wheel, no driving aids, 0 ABS unless forced.

That being said, I believe there are instances where using aids can produce faster lap times.
If you want to be a "purist" playing arcade/career mode in an offline cocoon, it might be practical.

 

[Dusty1990]

Well, if you look at past GT5 TT, some of the quickest driver in the world have done top 3 or 5 times with no ABS, it's all in the driver skill, usually alien driver can drive without ABS as fast as with ABS 1 and they usually beat us mere mortals even without ABS.

But its not making them quicker than the rest, which it should if your claims are correct, possibly AS quick but not QUICKER.

Use what you want when you want, makes no odds, people use assists for different reasons, I was ranked hardcore #1 over @ forzastats for almost a year, I'd love to be as quick turning off ALL assists on gt, reality is I can't.

 

[SKD420]

But its not making them quicker than the rest, which it should if your claims are correct, possibly AS quick but not QUICKER.

Use what you want when you want, makes no odds, people use assists for different reasons, I was ranked hardcore #1 over @ forzastats for almost a year, I'd love to be as quick turning off ALL assists on gt, reality is I can't.

I'm not presenting theories or guessing. I went to school for mechanical engineering. These are facts. The car will stop quicker without anti lock brakes. Your ABILITY to stop the car quicker than abs is your issue Dustin. And this ain't forza.

 

[VictorLudgero]

Hey, nice text.

Can I post it on my blog? (with all credits, of course)

 

[Dusty1990]

I'm not presenting theories or guessing. I went to school for mechanical engineering. These are facts. The car will stop quicker without anti lock brakes. Your ABILITY to stop the car quicker than abs is your issue Dustin. And this ain't forza.

this ain't reality, kid....

hope you take some enjoyment in calling the top racers on gt 'unskilled', if thats what you get off on, pfft

 

[raytard]

No aids forces you to put your racecraft to work, hit proper lines, braking points, apexes, and use throttle modulation, or you're going to get bit. This is making you faster, not the lack of aids. I promise you can get that car around the track just as fast with ABS on, you're just much more likely to disregard the lines and let it save you, which obviously slows you down. While some of the fastest drivers may not use it, quite a large amount do. It's very hard to be consistent without it over multiple laps, in traffic, with other players, while your tires degrade and fuel is burned.

That said, I can only do ABS0 if I'm paddle shifting. If you use the clutch+6 speed (which I prefer, when possible, I'm a big 450-550PP street car fan), you lose rev matching when downshifting and have to heel/toe. While I can pull it off, and do it quite easily in real life, I have a hard time doing it with a wheel support bar where my knee should go, in socks, with tiny fake pedals that hinge from the bottom.

Practice might help, but I'd rather just have more fun and consistency with ABS1 and nothing else.

 

[Lambob]

I need to shed ABS1 too, long overdue, and it's not just to have no aids, I believe cars simply behave better without the ABS on, especially in med-long corners. I think simply having ABS on, it induces understeer. (could be placebo, but it holds true since GT5Prologue Alfa 8C special event)

I've already been setting ABS 0 on everything 450pp and less, Sunday driving, etc, and ironically, powerful racecars too, but for some strange reason, I always (by habit) set ABS 1 for everything inbetween. great topic!

 

[SKD420]

this ain't reality, kid....

hope you take some enjoyment in calling the top racers on gt 'ou don't understand physics

I can't help the fact that you don't understand physics, or the ability to understand what you read.

I'd say look it up but obviously that won't do you good.

I could waste an hour explaining this to u but I will try in two sentences.

Driving as fast as is possible is hard. Any driving assist makes it easier to drive fast but will limit how fast you are able to go due to their very nature: driving assists were invented to keep the car stable under changing load situations: if you are able to keep control of the car during weight transfer, then you don't need any driving assists. Your ability to keep the car under control is the skill part of it.

Understand yet?

 

[Osr20_L]

I agree that the brakes in GT6 are more easy to manage without ABS specially with the help of the new tire model, but that's just only with the STREET BRAKES!!

The racing brakes on the other hand, and a bunch of race cars are still just as sensitive or worst than in GT5. PD should take care of this, and tone down those racing brake sensitivity.

 

[RacingManiac]

I'm not presenting theories or guessing. I went to school for mechanical engineering. These are facts. The car will stop quicker without anti lock brakes. Your ABILITY to stop the car quicker than abs is your issue Dustin. And this ain't forza.

Are you saying this in game or in real world? Because ABS can stop better than human if it was tuned to do that. Road going vehicle have other consideration in mind(stability) so they act on latter part of the longitudinal slip vs force curve. But they all have the sensors and control to do that at much closer to the optimum slip.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/3720.htm

 

[Dusty1990]

I can't help the fact that you don't understand physics, or the ability to understand what you read.

I'd say look it up but obviously that won't do you good.

I could waste an hour explaining this to u but I will try in two sentences.

Driving as fast as is possible is hard. Any driving assist makes it easier to drive fast but will limit how fast you are able to go due to their very nature: driving assists were invented to keep the car stable under changing load situations: if you are able to keep control of the car during weight transfer, then you don't need any driving assists. Your ability to keep the car under control is the skill part of it.

Understand yet?

You're a patronizing little **** ain't ya.... I understand fully about assists and WHY they are used. It was YOU who stated it is QUICKER running without ABS and yet there is ZERO proof of this, your answer to why is through players lack of skill.. those top guys have a ridiculous amount of skill and IF it was quicker to run without ABS they would. Tsukuba being a class example as to where they WOULD make up time being as there is only 4 braking points.

 

[SKD420]

I need to shed ABS1 too, long overdue, and it's not just to have no aids, I believe cars simply behave better without the ABS on, especially in med-long corners. I think simply having ABS on, it induces understeer. (could be placebo, but it holds true since GT5Prologue Alfa 8C special event)

I've already been setting ABS 0 on everything 450pp and less, Sunday driving, etc, and ironically, powerful racecars too, but for some strange reason, I always (by habit) set ABS 1 for everything inbetween. great topic!

Not too ironic since the extra down force of a race car will allow you to apply more braking force initially without locking the tires at high speeds. For ex a car without high down force will lock the wheels instantly at let's say 150 mph, where a race car won't. That's why you use digressive braking in race cars and progressive in road cars

 

[autech91]

As a GT veteran (was still racing GT5 up to the day GT6 came out) I've always had all aids except ABS1 switched off. In GT5 I kept the recommended gear indicator on. Last week I was mucking around with the settings and decided to switch it off to see if it made any difference.
I've never relied on it entirely as it tells you to brake far too early but subconsciously I was aware of it and used it in corners without any great markers. I'm not sure I'm any faster with it off but have found I'm less distracted with it off, it's one less thing keeping you mind off the task at hand. I would suggest all racers learn without aids on, I find it a more involving experience.

One thing lacking in GT6 on some tracks is brake markers, is anyone else struggling to find one at Bathurst for turn 1?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Depends how good you are in braking without aid The effect is most pronounced in racing condition and driver's skill also plays major part, but a good driver with good consistency will be at least brake as late or in certain situation brake later than ABS 1.

It is quite hard to brake as late and carry same amount of speed through on bumpy tracks though with stock brake bias, I found beating this time to go top of my friends list slightly difficult:

Maybe because I'm a newbie though without ABS braking. I have yet to use ABS in GT6, first GT game I'm completing entirely without ABS.

 

[RacingManiac]

One thing lacking in GT6 on some tracks is brake markers, is anyone else struggling to find one at Bathurst for turn 1?

Unfortunately so....I am like you with the gearing indicator as a subconscious cue often actually braking much later than when it starts to blink, but I tend to get on it too early or too late for that turn...

The light poles on the sides aren't very useful since there were so many of them tightly spaced...

 

[jimmy_b_84]

Great Thread!

I started turning all the aids off when I played Forza 4 and I've continued in GT6. I have improved massively since doing so.

 

[Sarkazmo]

So the first question is do you use a controller or wheel?
Input realism is very different for controllers and wheels.

My bet is that the top aliens can be fast with and without aids.
Personally, I use a wheel, no driving aids, 0 ABS unless forced.

That being said, I believe there are instances where using aids can produce faster lap times.
If you want to be a "purist" playing arcade/career mode in an offline cocoon, it might be practical.

I use a 360 wired controller connected to a USB adapter. I like the triggers for brake and gas.

Sark

 

[BionicDerp]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but if you use racing brakes for a while on sport/comfort tires, they heat up and let you brake harder. Or it's the tires... Or my imagination.

Started GT5 in July 2013, all aids off except abs1 by late october, started GT6 with no aids and it's been so much fun.