How turning off all aids made me a better, faster driver.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sarkazmo
  • 203 comments
  • 23,094 views
Sarkazmo
I use a 360 wired controller connected to a USB adapter. I like the triggers for brake and gas.

Sark
Click to expand...


I've got that cross over box, at least we're on the same playing field!
 
This thread should is just perfect 👍 Very well said. I agree 100% with everything you said.. :). Dis guy should be put member od the month :p.
 
This is the problem with you Xbox forza kids, you don't understand real world physics so u look at something as arbitrary as what the guy with the best Lao time did it on. Do you know those times were also set using skid recovery which doesn't exist?
Dusty1990
Who said it was? what we are trying to determine is whether having it turned off helps you stop quicker, looking at the top times suggests it doesn't.
Click to expand...
 
I play with all aids off, except ABS 1 on all cars and TCS on only the most difficult cars (Aston Martin One-77 and the like). Do I dare try to play using DS3 with those off?
 
Only thing I continue to use is ABS, primarily because I still use a DS3 (and use the buttons, the stick for acceleration/brake doesn't feel right at all).
 
I turned off all aids except for ABS1. Haven't driven any super powerful cars yet but i'm getting used to RWD cars and controlling the throttle to maintain grip in corners.
ITs kind of funny cause I never used the driving line in GT1/2/3/4(cause there was no line) then Forza came out and had a line then I kind of just got lazier and lazier.
Though in forza 3/4 I played MT with clutch.
but sometime last year I just stopped caring and turned on AT and more aids.
now I'm getting used to MT and no aids in GT6. but it feels good.
 
SKD420
That's exactly what I said. You can be faster without it, but most people due to their lack of ability won't be.


That's exactly what I said. You can be quicker without abs, but most people won't due to their lack of ability.

The top times also have srf on too btw. If that is your sole basis for thinking abs is faster then you clearly have reading comprehension issues.
Click to expand...

I disagree.

ABS0 will never be faster than ABS1 (all things being equal)
 
Proudly racing without ABS and any aids since GT5 Spec II :sly: or somewhere there on timeline. No ABS was really difficult to overcome on gamepad, but i accepted the challenge and learned how to drive almost from beginning.

The only problem here is that people who drive with ABS1, can't adapt to my driving style and are allways slamming me in the back of my car when i'm breaking earlier to go into a corner... or maybe this is because of Nurburgring GP first corner :lol:
 
seanneedscar
I disagree.

ABS0 will never be faster than ABS1 (all things being equal)
Click to expand...

Abs kinda kicks in before the limit of grip, while a skilled foot can keep it closer to the limit... At least that's what my spidey senses tell me.

Was in a Z4 spec race and I was slowing to their corner speed, but was braking 50m later. Could be coincidence every lap though I guess.
 
I'm about the same as the OP, both GT5 and this website here for the most part has helped me a bunch on improving my driving.
 
How turning off all aids made me a better, faster driver.
Click to expand...

This sounds so seriously :D

Now i'm waiting for story about how GT6 saved somebody’s life 👍 in the end, GT6 is real driving simulator, it shows us how car can behave in extreme situations ;)
 
BionicDerp
Abs kinda kicks in before the limit of grip, while a skilled foot can keep it closer to the limit... At least that's what my spidey senses tell me.

Was in a Z4 spec race and I was slowing to their corner speed, but was braking 50m later. Could be coincidence every lap though I guess.
Click to expand...

Technically ABS kicks in after the limits of grip, since it requires slip to happen before it'll function....is that how it works in the game, I don't know.
 
Riddox qouoted me earlier from the another thread regarding ABS OFF driving, so here is further detail to make my *arguments* (because it is simply my opinion on the matter) stand: a replay of the CizetaV16 on LeMans race, full stock car (no oil change), all aids OFF, ABS OFF, driven from the cockpit. Sports Hard compound, AI drives Sports Soft I think? Brake balance was 7 (front) / 1 (rear).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2iw746qzx7romra/PS3.zip

It is not 100% clean run, I bumped the FXX at the end, but if I didn't miss that braking point I would probably win. Also, the 612 bumped me earlier, so I didn't have an urge to restart because it was not my aggressive move.

IIRC You have to unpack it on the USB and copy it on the PS3 in order to get the main replay icon under the Game Save data in the GT6 XMB "folder" - and you will be bale to watch it in your GT6 Library/Replays.

There you can observe the actual braking "habits" I have to commence in order to make car stable on braking and exiting and why do I find ABS OFF really a totally different experience that allows to "feel" the car as it suppose to be.

On another note in this particular discussion, regarding actual views onto race.

I would agree how "cockpit" view is not *accurate* nor representation of the actual FOV when driving a car in real life - but there is something that is extremely different when driving in cockpit view that also *influences* sensation of physics and elevates the overall sensation of driving: seating position.

When you drive from all other views: bumper, roof or GoProStrapOn, you always "sit" in the centre of the vehicle. Thus, there is no factor of position *handicap* involved in either steering, corner entry, exit or overtaking lines. That is what ultimately makes the cockpit-view more "simulative", because all other views - including bumper - are simply compensating for the off-centre position you have when driving (excluding only single-seaters and McLF1 - because even in open LMP class the seating have the centre offset).

So, the actual "pivot-point" is crucial there and it adds to "realism factor", because you really drive totally different when driving from offset position (AKA you *behave* more *real* when driving due to altered pivot-point, outer dimensions of the vehicle you need to take car of and overall perception of the *space* around the *car*).

I made this graphic years ago and text is on Croatian, but you will get the idea of my agrument (from top to bottom: roof cam, bumper, cockpit):


uHcgQ.jpg
 
seanneedscar
I disagree.

ABS0 will never be faster than ABS1 (all things being equal)
Click to expand...
In my experience, that is completely the opposite-

There was a race I was practicing for several weeks ago and there was one turn that was giving me problems as it needed very little braking but all that braking needed to happen while turning to get a fast line through the turn. That's something I could manage without ABS but only just- considering that during the race, I wouldn't be able to focus wholly on precise braking, I turned ABS on to see if it helped. While it did help me be a little more consistent through that corner, every other corner on the track suffered. Braking distances increased greatly.

I'm guessing that, because the ABS is so sensitive even as low as 1, the instant it detects any tire lockup, it immediately pulls back on the brakes. I tried several bias settings as I usually like to run quite a bit more front bias but all had the same results- ABS was slowing me down (... or not slowing me down, as the case may be, I guess).
 
BionicDerp
At least that's what my spidey senses tell me.
Click to expand...

BionicDerp
Could be coincidence every lap though I guess.
Click to expand...

FerrellJ
In my experience,
Click to expand...

FerrellJ
I'm guessing that,
Click to expand...

I'd like to point out that this is all speculation and anecdotal evidence, and therefore, invalidated (But I do respect your opinions)

All I need to do to prove my point correct, is show you the leaderboards of any GT5 or GT6 seasonal. The fastest times will always be with ABS enabled. I got bored of trying to find one with ABS off, and I already got to #50. I doubt there is one in even the top 1000 times.

Do you think this is the result of coincidence or driving style? Do you honestly believe these people would spend hours and hours trying to shave off a thousandth of a second, yet purposely hinder themselves with ABS enabled? Cmon..

ABS1 allows for the application of instant, full-force braking power. As long as ABS is disabled, you will never be able to stop as abruptly (or brake as late) as you can with ABS enabled.

And that is why ABS1 will always be faster than ABS0 (all things being equal)

I'm not shaking my finger at ABS0 users, I applaud the skill required to even come close to an ABS1 racer. I'm well aware that with ABS disabled one could eventually equal, and surpass their best ABS1 lap time. But this is merely through practice, and time made up in other areas of the track. And at the end of the day, a better time could be achieved with ABS1, to say otherwise is simply incorrect.
 
SKD420
I'm not presenting theories or guessing. I went to school for mechanical engineering. These are facts. The car will stop quicker without anti lock brakes. Your ABILITY to stop the car quicker than abs is your issue Dustin. And this ain't forza.
Click to expand...
When I was young I was a very bad student, but I've been playing to videogames for 32 years, mostly racing games (if that serves for my curriculum :D )

I'm no mechanical engineer but I know some things about videogames, one of them is that game developers can make an aid to make you faster or slower at their will, it's coded in the software, it's not real life physics.

Game developers can emulate (right or wrong) those RL physics, but usually, the problem to achieve a realistic behaviour is the hardware limitation (quantum processors would be very handy) and the very complex physics they've to deal with (specially tire compound).

In GT, tire pressure doesn't exist and we don't have tire temperature data, don't expect miracles, brakes behaviour and ABS is not well represented, suspension is a bad joke so far too, still with that, GT is a good (even with its countless bugs), fun and entertaining videogame and that's why I play it.

Using comfort tires in GT6 you can't match ABS times without ABS (even if you live in Mars), I don't know other tire compounds though.

BTW, drivers can be faster using aids in real life, it's technology and physics that human skills can't achieve per se, if you're a nice guy I'll give you a couple examples and a lollipop. :D
 
Ive done the same thing... Early in gt5 (When I got it roughly last year) I turned everything off except for recommended gear and abs 1. Now in gt6, ive turned off abs, and i have gotten faster, every time i have taken off an aid. Now i should probably get rid of recommended gear, because I have found that I can usually go in the corner a whole gear ahead of what the game says, but i havent turned it off yet, for some reason.
 
eclipsee
When I was young I was a very bad student, but I've been playing to videogames for 32 years, mostly racing games (if that serves for my curriculum :D )

I'm no mechanical engineer but I know some things about videogames, one of them is that game developers can make an aid to make you faster or slower at their will, it's coded in the software, it's not real life physics.

Game developers can emulate (right or wrong) those RL physics, but usually, the problem to achieve a realistic behaviour is the hardware limitation (quantum processors would be very handy) and the very complex physics they've to deal with (specially tire compound).

In GT, tire pressure doesn't exist and we don't have tire temperature data, don't expect miracles, brakes behaviour and ABS is not well represented, suspension is a bad joke so far too, still with that, GT is a good (even with its countless bugs), fun and entertaining videogame and that's why I play it.

Using comfort tires in GT6 you can't match ABS times without ABS (even if you live in Mars), I don't know other tire compounds though.

BTW, drivers can be faster using aids in real life, it's technology and physics that human skills can't achieve per se, if you're a nice guy I'll give you a couple examples and a lollipop. :D
Click to expand...

Maybe it's driver dependent.
 
Great thread. Read this while at work today and it definitely got me thinking... And ready to get back to GT6 tonight. In GT5 I used the driving line and ABS1, and many times TCS 1 and SRF if a race was giving me difficulty. Also,I guess because I felt more comfortable/confident I was using bumper-cam.
Once I got GT6 though I decided to go "full sim" if you will. I turned off the driving line and I have only used cockpit view since day one. Now I am at 77% and agree completely with the OP that I think I have become a better racer due to not using any aids... With the one exception up to today of ABS 1. This post got me thinking about how I only kept ABS on one because I think basically everyone did on GT5, or at least most DFGT users like myself. So tonight I tried ABS 0 and it definitely took some getting used to, but it is doable and I plan to make the switch permanent. Was I faster tonight than last night? No, probably not because I was relearning how to really feather the DFGT peddle. Not sure if I want to use zero when I'm driving an LMP car or not either - tonight I was racing GT3s in the IA class and was able to work with it but I remember racing in the Bentley speed 8 at nurburgring against the BMW V12 and the Jag XJR9 and my heart was pounding. For my own health I might keep ABS on for that type of race anyway.
I do support the OP in his challenge to others to turn off aids and see if it doesn't feel like a better experience. The driving line alone was ruining the whole sim feeling for me and felt more like an arcade game so I turned it off and have no intention of turning it back on. Why try so hard to ignore it and focus on the track when it can be turned off to allow you to finally SEE the track.
Thanks to everyone for the great discussion. We need more posts like this one and fewer about... Well you know the ones that aren't like this.
Cheers.
 
Well done OP 👍👍 and a great message for anyone considering dropping any aids. It is so much more rewarding IMO, to put down a clean lap without aids and the game as a result is more satisfying. The challenge of driving without aids also brings out the subtle nuances of each and every car that are often masked by driver aids, including ABS.

seanneedscar
I disagree.

ABS0 will never be faster than ABS1 (all things being equal)
Click to expand...
This is a videogame, not real life, so you can never make a definitive statement like that. ABS0 or ABS1 will be faster depending on how PD programs them to work. If it gives a slight distance advantage to ABS0 a top pilot will take advantage of that at some point and the game will change.

"Faster" is also relative. I've taken some cars in stock form that understeer and don't rotate well, and used ABS0 to give them more front end bite and help them rotate better and as a result have been faster, albeit by tenths, but still faster. Even in some of my perfectly tuned cars, I am just as fast without ABS as with on many tracks, although not all.
 
Osr20_L
The racing brakes on the other hand, and a bunch of race cars are still just as sensitive or worst than in GT5. PD should take care of this, and tone down those racing brake sensitivity.
Click to expand...
Rather than tone it down they should make it adjustable if bias set to low values make it less sensitive and if set to high values make it more sensitive.

Using the CS pedals it is very hard to slow down with standard brakes, easier with racing brakes but still requires some effort. I can get 50% braking with minimal effort to get 75% I have to press hard and to get 100% I have to press very hard. 50-75% is enough with racing brakes most of the time but with standard brakes 50% pedal barely slows you down and I find myself needing to almost stand on the pedal to slow the car down at times.

I would love to be able to set the brake bias to 10/10 and have it to where I could get lockup at 50% brake pedal or set it a 0/0 and not be able to slow down at all even at 100% pedal 5/5 would be 100% pedal for lockup. To me that would be ideal.
 
HBR-Roadhog
Rather than tone it down they should make it adjustable if bias set to low values make it less sensitive and if set to high values make it more sensitive.

Using the CS pedals it is very hard to slow down with standard brakes, easier with racing brakes but still requires some effort. I can get 50% braking with minimal effort to get 75% I have to press hard and to get 100% I have to press very hard. 50-75% is enough with racing brakes most of the time but with standard brakes 50% pedal barely slows you down and I find myself needing to almost stand on the pedal to slow the car down at times.

I would love to be able to set the brake bias to 10/10 and have it to where I could get lockup at 50% brake pedal or set it a 0/0 and not be able to slow down at all even at 100% pedal 5/5 would be 100% pedal for lockup. To me that would be ideal.
Click to expand...

Brake sensitivity slider + deadzone adjustment for pedal under controller options would be awesome, that way any input device can be tailored to suit the player, need more pedal travel or resistance, reduce the sensitivity :)
 
I have aids on or off depending on the car. So cars like the Ferrari F40 are driven with no TC or ABS, whilst the the 458 and other cars are driven with one or both on. I like to look for the most realistic experience where possible, but I'm currently no where near as fast with the ABS off, so I've given up trying to use my older cars in online races.
 
I only use the racing line a night, my TV's so dark I permanently end up grass cutting without it.
Maybe they could add lawn mower racing...
 
GT6 ABS 0 = GT5 ABS 1

They have just removed the ABS 0 setting.
 
I always encourage the newbies on this game to immediately turn ALL aids off when starting playing except ABS, and SRF. The rest of the aids do nothing but slow you down.
When they have learned a bit, they should try to turn off SRF.


gambleboyen
GT6 ABS 0 = GT5 ABS 1

They have just removed the ABS 0 setting.
Click to expand...
No, its just that the gap in GT5 from ABS 1 to ABS 0 was soooo big, in GT6 it isnt.
 
Great post, completely agree turning the driving line off actually makes you focus on corners and braking points.
I highly recommend turning ABS off then getting clubsport pedals with the loadcell or even the nixim mod. Feels so much better, actually teaches you to modulate braking pressure and trail brake properly. The loadcell lets you set whatever pressure you want to take it right to the braking limit
 
Driving aids are meant to make it easier for you to drive not faster so it isn't really a surprise that your quicker without them, otherwise the whole of GTP would be using them :lol:

 
Back