I don't think PD understands how a supercharger works

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Mastashake15
In the description to add a supercharger, it says that it gives the most boost in the low to mid RPM range. That's completely untrue, as the higher an engine revs the MORE power a supercharger will give. This is because the crank turns the blower, and the faster the crank is spinning the harder the blower is working.

Pretty stupid oversight.
 
Maybe something was lost in translation...they coulda been talking about the lack of lag compared to turbos at lower rpms.
 
not really it depends on the suprecharger.

twin screw (Positive displacement) supercharges do have a general characteristic of giveing big gains low in the rev range but running out of 'puff' in the higher rev range.

not really an oversight
 
All they mean is that it is instant power from low rpms compared to say a Turbo which has to spool up.

Which also brings me to another thing in which they have 3 different options for turbos...

"low rpm range turbo" (according to description lacks boost at high rpms) ... lol
 
not really it depends on the suprecharger.

twin screw (Positive displacement) supercharges do have a general characteristic of giveing big gains low in the rev range but running out of 'puff' in the higher rev range.

not really an oversight

This. Centrifugal blowers create more boost at the top end, but they're not in the game.
 
not really it depends on the suprecharger.

twin screw (Positive displacement) supercharges do have a general characteristic of giveing big gains low in the rev range but running out of 'puff' in the higher rev range.

not really an oversight

lmao...I wonder who told you that? Whoever did is wrong.
 
Which also brings me to another thing in which they have 3 different options for turbos...

"low rpm range turbo" (according to description lacks boost at high rpms) ... lol

Yeah but a low RPM turbo doesn't give out as much power, so I think he means when compared to the larger, more equal power, high RPM turbo.

Anyway that doesn't really matter, I think gary31 is correct.
 
The three turbos could also have been classified by size.

A smaller turbo will have less lag, and therefore give most of its power at lower revs, and since its small, it is not able to give as much air as a larger turbo at higher revs
A large turbo however, has more lag, but will have a larger maximum output.
 
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Yeah but a low RPM turbo doesn't give out as much power, so I think he means when compared to the larger, more equal power, high RPM turbo.

Anyway that doesn't really matter, I think gary31 is correct.

He's not correct because even though a roots and a twin screw are different, the basic way they work is still the same, which is that the higher the rpms, the most air is forced into the engine, and the most horsepower you will get.

And to the guy who said the engine will blow up with too much boost, tell that to these guys.

 
More like I dont think PD knows how the hell a supercharger SOUNDS LIKE. everytime I install one on a car I NEVER hear the S/C whine. Most pathetic oversight in the game.
 
Yeah I'm sure they do, but turbochargers are capable of producing more peak power than superchargers. But superchargers work better at lower RPM than a turbocharger (High RPM) so this is probably what PD were trying to say. Unless you have a low RPM turbo aswell to reduce/remove lag.
 
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Yeah go look at the efficiency maps (if you can read them).

BTW i did mean roots not screw, so my bad.

But whatever dude...prove me wrong show me why they (PD) are wrong.
 
Yeah go look at the efficiency maps (if you can read them).

BTW i did mean roots not screw, so my bad.

But whatever dude...prove me wrong show me why they (PD) are wrong.

Ok I can prove you wrong. Take a took at the video for a few seconds. All of those cars are running a roots blower. They rev at around 10,000 rpm. Just to give you an idea of how much boost they are getting, they weigh 2800 lbs and run a 500 cubic inch v8 on methanol.

Take the supercharger off and you would have a pass around 190-195 mph, around 7 seconds problably a little under. The supercharger is giving them enough power to go 50 mph faster and an entire second faster in only a quarter mile. All of it is at high rpms.

Hell there is a guy running a turbo with a 526 hemi at 2850 lbs that does 0-255 in 5.8 seconds.
 
WOW ^ Best proof ever!

I must be wrong.

so how much boost are they running?

they weigh 2800 pounds and have 500CI so that must make 2800/500=less than 6PSI

P.s. that was a joke calculation, due to your utter lack of scientific merit.
 
This is a random boost graph I pulled off the internet.

mmfp_0501_26_z+ford_modular_motor_forced_induction_comparison+boosted_dyno.jpg


The two top lines are the twin screw and eaton supercharger. The one that ramps up at 3500 is the turbo. The linear line is the Centrifugal Supercharger.

As you can see, one of the screw type blowers runs out of puff at high rpm, the other one stays fairly flat. Conclusion: depends on the blower.
 
I thought Roots and twin-screw superchargers, provide most power at lower RPM. While Centrifugal superchargers do the opposite.
 
WOW ^ Best proof ever!

I must be wrong.

so how much boost are they running?

they weigh 2800 pounds and have 500CI so that must make 2800/500=less than 6PSI

P.s. that was a joke calculation, due to your utter lack of scientific merit.

The setup is different for each team but somewhere between 10-15 pounds of boost.
 
Yeah I'm sure they do, but turbochargers are capable of producing more peak power than superchargers. But superchargers work better at lower RPM than a turbocharger (of equal HP) so this is probably what PD were trying to say. Unless you have a low RPM turbo aswell to reduce/remove lag.

While a supercharger will essentially give you instant power across the rev range, a correctly sized turbo can give superior low to mid range torque.

The limiting factor with a supercharger is that because it is belt driven directly from the engine, boost will increase proportionally to engine speed. This means that you are only achieving maximum boost at one point in the rpm range (usually high in the rev range to avoid over-boosting).

With a turbo, maximum boost can be achieved much earlier because the once maximum boost is achieved, the wastegate can allow exhaust gas to bypass the turbine in order to prevent over-boosting. A turbo is also more thermally efficient than a supercharger, therefore offering better fuel efficiency.

But anyway I'm getting a bit off topic, I'm sure what they mean is that supercharger does not experience lag like a turbo does, because it is driven directly by the engine and therefore does not require time to spool up
 
You seem to be contradicting yourself as the graph is telling the opposite of what you stated earlier.

[/QUOTE=gary31]
not really it depends on the suprecharger.

twin screw (Positive displacement) supercharges do have a general characteristic of giveing big gains low in the rev range but running out of 'puff' in the higher rev range.

not really an oversight
[/QUOTE]

How am i contradicting myself?
 
Which also brings me to another thing in which they have 3 different options for turbos...

"low rpm range turbo" (according to description lacks boost at high rpms) ... lol

Uh, there are many, many turbos that, while they spool quickly, cannot flow enough air to maintain boost pressures at high RPM. This is why many Volvos, for example, have had a low-pressure turbo engine and a high-pressure turbo engine.

The LPT engine comes on boost faster (generally before 2,000 RPM) but because the compressor wheel is smaller, it loses efficiency at high RPMS and the wastegate starts opening at lower boost pressures to avoid overdriving the turbine and causing excessive heat in the intake charge.

The HPT engines use a turbo with a larger compressor wheel and the turbine takes longer to spool (typically above 2,500 RPM) but the larger compressor side means the turbine does not lose as much efficiency at higher RPMS which results in better peak power.

Also, as engine RPM increases, so does flow volume. Because efficiency for a turbo decreases if it's driven beyond peak, even though it flows more air at higher RPM, this increase is not always enough to keep even with the engine's increased flow, which results in overall boost pressure decreasing.

Basically, when setting up a single turbo, you have trade-offs. You can set up a small turbine that spools quickly but runs into efficiency limitations and peters off well before redline if you want to boost low-end above all else. Or you can set up a medium size turbine that takes longer to spool and leaves the low end a little soft but stays on peak boost longer. Or you can put a huge turbo on that takes ages to spool but can maintain boost right to redline. These differing tradeoffs are perfectly analogous to PD's "Low RPM", "Mid RPM" and "High RPM" turbo setups.

As far as positive displacement superchargers go, the key to understanding them is in their name. They flow a fixed ("positive") amount ("displacement") of air for each revolution of the crank. At high RPM they absolutely do flow more air than at low RPM in absolute terms. However, their gain is strictly linear with RPM which means in practice that the boost level for a properly-matched positive displacement supercharger will remain constant. This is contrasted with a turbocharger (or a centrifugal supercharger) where the flow rate increases exponentially with RPM (up to peak efficiency). A positive displacement supercharger provides the same proportional increase across the whole RPM range while a turbo produces an increasing power increase as RPMs climb (up to the peak efficiency point).
 
[/QUOTE=gary31]
not really it depends on the suprecharger.

twin screw (Positive displacement) supercharges do have a general characteristic of giveing big gains low in the rev range but running out of 'puff' in the higher rev range.

not really an oversight

How am i contradicting myself?[/QUOTE]

Because you wrote that before you wrote what I qouted...but whatever man I'm not even going to continue posting so you can be right and I can be right and we'll both be happy.
 
Mastashake15, sorry, but you are wrong.

Yes a supercharger spins more at higher rpm, because it's run off the crank shaft (either primarily or secondarily), but because of this, it's speed is directly linked to rpm.

Simple example, if the charger is spinning at 24,000rpm when then engine is spinning at 4000rpm, then the charger will be spinning at 48,000rpm when the engine is at 8000rpm, Therefore, regardless of engine RPM, the blower is always spinning at a rate of 6 rotations for every rotation of the crank shaft.

Now you have to remember that the 'boost' of power provided by the blower is dependant on the air being forced into the engine. Since there is a bigger vacuum effect at high rpm, the blower would need to work harder in order to get the same level of boost. Since it's speed is linked to crank speed, this is impossible and a big reason why (in most non-drag applications) turbo's are used more for high end power and superchargers are used for increased torque and mid-range. Superchargers are only really used in drag due to lack of lag.

Also, the reason drag chargers tend to hold their boost longer is that they are over-sized for the boost level required and then they bleed off the excess pressure in the midrange, meaning that the blower is only running at it's maximum load at the top of the rev range when the pressure is no longer bled off.

If you want me to go into more detail I will, but the basic premise is that PD's description of superchargers is totally correct from the point of road/race cars.

The way they are used on drag cars is different and if the description was relative to drag, they'd be incorrect, but as it stands it isn't aimed at drag cars, so they are 100% correct.
 
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