I don't think PD understands how a supercharger works

[MasterFocus]

Never saw a street car with a blower running higher boost @ higher RPM than a turbo =/

 

[Mafz]

While a supercharger will essentially give you instant power across the rev range, a correctly sized turbo can give superior low to mid range torque.

The limiting factor with a supercharger is that because it is belt driven directly from the engine, boost will increase proportionally to engine speed. This means that you are only achieving maximum boost at one point in the rpm range (usually high in the rev range to avoid over-boosting).

With a turbo, maximum boost can be achieved much earlier because the once maximum boost is achieved, the wastegate can allow exhaust gas to bypass the turbine in order to prevent over-boosting. A turbo is also more thermally efficient than a supercharger, therefore offering better fuel efficiency.

But anyway I'm getting a bit off topic, I'm sure what they mean is that supercharger does not experience lag like a turbo does, because it is driven directly by the engine and therefore does not require time to spool up

Yeah but in GT5 the smaller turbos don't give as much power as a supercharger can, from my experience anyway. So I was comparing to the High RPM turbo.

 

[TwinturboCH]

Yeah but in GT5 the smaller turbos don't give as much power as a supercharger can, from my experience anyway. So I was comparing to the High RPM turbo.

But that is where you are going wrong. PD didn't intend for the supercharger to be on a par with the high rpm turbo. They intended it to be like what is fitted to most road cars which are converted from N/A to supercharged, a small to mid-sized blower designed to increase mid range torque with a (relatively) small top end horsepower gain. Their description is correct for the spec of supercharger which is programmed into the game.

 

[Madman Apex]

But that is where you are going wrong. PD didn't intend for the supercharger to be on a par with the high rpm turbo. They intended it to be like what is fitted to most road cars which are converted from N/A to supercharged, a small to mid-sized blower designed to increase mid range torque with a (relatively) small top end horsepower gain. Their description is correct for the spec of supercharger which is programmed into the game.

^^this.

But in all honesty PD has dropped the ball somewhat on the engine tuning side of the game. ALL ENGINES CAN BE TURBO'd AND SUPERCHARGED. Period. a 'generic japanese' car in the game with a small 3.6L V6 can be engine tuned and turbo'd to have over 650hp, lets say thats about 180 to about 200hp per liter. But a Dodge Viper with an 8L V10 or a McLaren F1 with a 6L V12 cant break 1000hp?!!? barely making 125 to about 150hp per liter?!? it's not just biased its doesnt maintain any consistency.

 

[Mafz]

But that is where you are going wrong. PD didn't intend for the supercharger to be on a par with the high rpm turbo. They intended it to be like what is fitted to most road cars which are converted from N/A to supercharged, a small to mid-sized blower designed to increase mid range torque with a (relatively) small top end horsepower gain. Their description is correct for the spec of supercharger which is programmed into the game.

Yeah that's what I said in the first place:

I thought Roots and twin-screw superchargers, provide most power at lower RPM. While Centrifugal superchargers do the opposite.

Obviously GT5 doesn't have Centrifugal Superchargers, so I wasn't saying PD are incorrect. I also think their description is correct.

As for the turbo comparison, I dunno what happened there, I think I confused myself.

 

[imarobot2.1]

OPs avatar has a Blower on it, i trust this man

 

[Madman Apex]

OPs avatar has a Blower on it, i trust this man

yeah that was kinda my initial thoughts as well.

also thought, 'what do top fuel dragsters use?? turbo or supercharger?? oh ok i guess that is the best option, since they can make 8000hp'

 

[Luminis]

also thought, 'what do top fuel dragsters use?? turbo or supercharger?? oh ok i guess that is the best option, since they can make 8000hp'

And probably need an engine rebuilt long ebfore finishing a lap on a given track
Top fuel dragsters are nice and all, but if you need the reliability to finish a race, these amounts of boosts go right out of the window.

And to the guy who said the engine will blow up with too much boost, tell that to these guys.

That's why I'm kinda facepalming at stuff like this. They maintain those boost levels for a few seconds, not for minutes, as it is necessary in circuit racing

Anyways, it has been explained why PD ISn't wrong with their descriptions, so whatever, I guess.

 

[TBR 427]

The setup is different for each team but somewhere between 10-15 pounds of boost.

Somehow you're assuming the supercharger works and is built exactly the same in a drag car designed to last seconds (minutes at most) and a road car that could be entered in an endurance event.

I bet those superchargers in the drag vid you posted take more grunt to spin at IDLE than the average of all the cars of GT5.

 

[brambos]

Lots of cool stories bros.

It's safe to assume PD know how a supercharger works.

 

[Aloha62_2]

Superchargers do indeed lose efficiency at higher engine speeds due to mechanical losses and their fixed rotation to engine RPM nature. There is a theoretical point where the rolling resistance of a supercharger and speed will be unable to compress air sufficiently for the engines draw, in turn sapping the engines power rather then adding to it. I remember reading a technical review of a clutched supercharger that would be isolated from the engine past ~4000rpm as past that point its mechanical efficiency was deemed too low to be of advantage.


This is a limitation turbo's don't have (turbo being short for turbine driven super-charger) making them able to increase engine power as long as expanding gasses are available from the manifold are sufficient to compress the inlet air.

 

[TwinturboCH]

But in all honesty PD has dropped the ball somewhat on the engine tuning side of the game. ALL ENGINES CAN BE TURBO'd AND SUPERCHARGED. Period. a 'generic japanese' car in the game with a small 3.6L V6 can be engine tuned and turbo'd to have over 650hp, lets say thats about 180 to about 200hp per liter. But a Dodge Viper with an 8L V10 or a McLaren F1 with a 6L V12 cant break 1000hp?!!? barely making 125 to about 150hp per liter?!? it's not just biased its doesnt maintain any consistency.

What? So because a R32 GTR can make 1200bhp with a 2.6, in your eyes that means that a clio with a 1.4 should be able to hit 700bhp. Don't be silly. It all depends on the design of the individual engine, the number of cylinders, the capacity, the stroke of the crank, the head layout, the ability to rev etc etc etc etc Some engines are more tunable than others, FACT! It's called engineering.

OPs avatar has a Blower on it, i trust this man

I tell you what, I'll change my signature to a pic of an F1 car, does that make me Lewis Hamilton? Seriously dude, judging your opinion of what is correct on someones avatar? Please.

yeah that was kinda my initial thoughts as well.

also thought, 'what do top fuel dragsters use?? turbo or supercharger?? oh ok i guess that is the best option, since they can make 8000hp'

Oh dear. Seriously. You need to base your opinions on FACTS rather than the bhp figures of cars that last for no more than 10 seconds at full throttle before getting a partial rebuild.

Superchargers do indeed lose efficiency at higher engine speeds due to mechanical losses and there fixed rotation to engine RPM nature. There is a theoretical point where the rolling resistance of a supercharger and speed will be unable to compress air sufficiently for the engines draw, in turn sapping the engines power rather then adding to it. I remember reading a technical review of a clutched supercharger that would be isolated from the engine past ~4000rpm as past that point its mechanical efficiency was deemed too low to be of advantage.


This is a limitation turbo's dont have (turbo being short for turbine driven super-charger' making them able to increase engine power as long as expanding gasses are available from the manifold are sufficient to compress the inlet air.

Kind of what I was saying but much more concise 👍

 

[charliec]

I'm glad to see not everyone talks out their ass on here...👍

 

[freedomweasel]

I tell you what, I'll change my signature to a pic of an F1 car, does that make me Lewis Hamilton? Seriously dude, judging your opinion of what is correct on someones avatar? Please.

----Joke






---- Your head.
👍

 

[veyron1001]

He's not correct because even though a roots and a twin screw are different, the basic way they work is still the same, which is that the higher the rpms, the most air is forced into the engine, and the most horsepower you will get.

And to the guy who said the engine will blow up with too much boost, tell that to these guys.

O you mean the guys that have to rebuild the engine every race?

 

[Bigbazz]

Using drag racing vehicles as an example here is just silly. They blow up engines a lot, and have to rebuild them often.

 

[risewithefallen]

No it's pretty accurate.. they would overboost and blow up engines if they did that.

im not sure about superchargers, but i know turbochargers have a wastegate that prevents overboosting. and the supercharger could be set to only run a maximum amount of boost which would be achieved at the highest rpm's. PD needs to let us adjust how much boost we run, seeing as we can do complete suspension adjustments along with other things.

 

[freight48]

And to the guy who said the engine will blow up with too much boost, tell that to these guys.

Obviously that engine doesn't have too much boost...

 

[risewithefallen]

What? So because a R32 GTR can make 1200bhp with a 2.6, in your eyes that means that a clio with a 1.4 should be able to hit 700bhp. Don't be silly. It all depends on the design of the individual engine, the number of cylinders, the capacity, the stroke of the crank, the head layout, the ability to rev etc etc etc etc Some engines are more tunable than others, FACT! It's called engineering.


👍

i totally agree with you here. the thing is, most cars aren't designed to be tuned very much, but the japanese have produced the most tuneable cars for a very, very long time. a good friend of mine has an impreza WRX that originally had ~165whp and he's gotten it up to 206whp (~260chp) with just a downpipe, ecu tune, and increased boost in the turbo. only a couple hundred bucks right there. to increase fifty horses on a mustang or corvette you start talking serious aftermarket parts, like full exhaust and supercharger. Japan seems to really appreciate the value of buying a car and tuning it all yourself.

 

[charliec]

i totally agree with you here. the thing is, most cars aren't designed to be tuned very much, but the japanese have produced the most tuneable cars for a very, very long time. a good friend of mine has an impreza WRX that originally had ~165whp and he's gotten it up to 206whp (~260chp) with just a downpipe, ecu tune, and increased boost in the turbo. only a couple hundred bucks right there. to increase fifty horses on a mustang or corvette you start talking serious aftermarket parts, like full exhaust and supercharger. Japan seems to really appreciate the value of buying a car and tuning it all yourself.

Nothing personal, because I love imports and agree with most of this statement, but the bolded text is just wrong. A set of long-tube headers will give you about 50 hp. A supercharger on a Corvette? Try a 150-200WHP gain.

Love all cars equally.

 

[GT4.75]

Honestly, I think the only problem here is that most people picture a centrifugal s-charger these days, not a roots-style blower.

Most US-based car enthusiasts will automatically think roots-style, a la ZR1.

A lot of people, including myself, think of a centrifugal charger, which does make more boost linearly to redline. Depending on your view, PD is either right or wrong.

As for 'lost in translation,' I think 85% of this games' concept has been lost by PD.

 

[charliec]

Honestly, I think the only problem here is that most people picture a centrifugal s-charger these days, not a roots-style blower.

Most US-based car enthusiasts will automatically think roots-style, a la ZR1.

A lot of people, including myself, think of a centrifugal charger, which does make more boost linearly to redline. Depending on your view, PD is either right or wrong.

As for 'lost in translation,' I think 85% of this games' concept has been lost by PD.

I think the icon for the supercharger, if I'm not mistaken, is a belt driven supercharger though. I mean, it's a picture of what it is right? If you see a picture of what it is, and then assume it's something different...I'm not sure I see how it's PDs fault...

 

[MasterFocus]

What about the sound from that roots style s/c? all we can hear is tranny whine!

 

[Aloha62_2]

After a brief spell owning a mini cooper with both a supercharger and a jack knight 5 speed straight cut box I will happily tell anyone how after about 30mph you couldn't hear anything over the straight cut box. I could have had justin beiber being chainsawed to death in the back seat and I wouldn't have known.

 

[MustangRyan]

i totally agree with you here. the thing is, most cars aren't designed to be tuned very much, but the japanese have produced the most tuneable cars for a very, very long time. a good friend of mine has an impreza WRX that originally had ~165whp and he's gotten it up to 206whp (~260chp) with just a downpipe, ecu tune, and increased boost in the turbo. only a couple hundred bucks right there. to increase fifty horses on a mustang or corvette you start talking serious aftermarket parts, like full exhaust and supercharger. Japan seems to really appreciate the value of buying a car and tuning it all yourself.

This is an absolute fact. Making naturally-aspirated apples go faster is much more expensive than it is for forced-induction oranges.

This just in: four-legged dogs faster than three-legged dogs, video at 11.

 

[MasterFocus]

After a brief spell owning a mini cooper with both a supercharger and a jack knight 5 speed straight cut box I will happily tell anyone how after about 30mph you couldn't hear anything over the straight cut box. I could have had justin beiber being chainsawed to death in the back seat and I wouldn't have known.

from the inside yes, nut in TG5 you have the option to be outside the car and even in replay, you cant ear the s/c whine

 

[Uxi]

This. Centrifugal blowers create more boost at the top end, but they're not in the game.

Not only would I like both types, but I'd like to be able to twin-charge (supercharger and turbocharger).

Really, I'd like more detail on the engines, in general... imagine if we could tweak cam lift/profile and compression ratio like we can transmission ratios. This would, of course, necessitate engine damage and monitoring of things like oil pressure, a/f, boost, etc with the appropriate gauges...

Stay naturally aspirated and put in some really aggressive cams and super high CR... or go low CR with high boost. Would be funny would watch some of the NA newbs bogging at low RPM in low gear or people blowing their engines. Oil slick road hazards!

 

[charliec]

Not only would I like both types, but I'd like to be able to twin-charge (supercharger and turbocharger).

Really, I'd like more detail on the engines, in general... imagine if we could tweak cam lift/profile and compression ratio like we can transmission ratios. This would, of course, necessitate engine damage and monitoring of things like oil pressure, a/f, boost, etc with the appropriate gauges...

Lol, for gear heads, that'd be awesome. People have a hard enough time with customizable gear ratios though

(That would be freaking sweet though).

 

[freedomweasel]

Not only would I like both types, but I'd like to be able to twin-charge (supercharger and turbocharger).

Really, I'd like more detail on the engines, in general... imagine if we could tweak cam lift/profile and compression ratio like we can transmission ratios. This would, of course, necessitate engine damage and monitoring of things like oil pressure, a/f, boost, etc with the appropriate gauges...

Stay naturally aspirated and put in some really aggressive cams and super high CR... or go low CR with high boost. Would be funny would watch some of the NA newbs bogging at low RPM in low gear or people blowing their engines. Oil slick road hazards!

I think the engine "stage" upgrades represent more aggressive cams, rods, etc. Though more detail would be nice. I definitely would like twin turbo setups, various types of superchargers, and twincharging.

 

[Zenmervolt]

This is a limitation turbo's don't have (turbo being short for turbine driven super-charger) making them able to increase engine power as long as expanding gasses are available from the manifold are sufficient to compress the inlet air.

That's not true. There will always be a point at which the compressor wheel starts to lose efficiency; the flow rate of a turbine's compressor side is not infinite. Once you exceed the optimum flow rate you start over-heating the intake charge and you get less additional compression per increase in RPM than you did before peak.

There's a decent explanation along with a compressor map here: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

It's absolutely possible (and, indeed, common in street turbos) to have a situation where there is enough exhaust to drive the turbine well past the choke point because of the choice of a small turbo to aid low-RPM boost. To avoid over-driving the turbine, the wastegate starts opening at higher RPM to manage turbine RPM and keep the turbo within its performance envelope.