I don't think PD understands how a supercharger works

[Aloha62_2]

That's not true. There will always be a point at which the compressor wheel starts to lose efficiency; the flow rate of a turbine's compressor side is not infinite. Once you exceed the optimum flow rate you start over-heating the intake charge and you get less additional compression per increase in RPM than you did before peak.

There's a decent explanation along with a compressor map here: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

It's absolutely possible (and, indeed, common in street turbos) to have a situation where there is enough exhaust to drive the turbine well past the choke point because of the choice of a small turbo to aid low-RPM boost. To avoid over-driving the turbine, the wastegate starts opening at higher RPM to manage turbine RPM and keep the turbo within its performance envelope.

Well yes there is always a limited to everything, I simply brought the turbocharger up as an alternative which isnt hindered by the same tight limits as a supercharger.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Well yes there is always a limited to everything, I simply brought the turbocharger up as an alternative which isnt hindered by the same tight limits as a supercharger.

Valid.

I'm just used to people thinking that if they just remove or modify the wastegate they can get infinite boost and then wonder why their car pings and runs like crap at high RPM when the small turbo is generating more heat than boost.

 

[Fredde_swe]

I think the whole Turbo kits section in the game is a weird, because why can I only choose between three turbos and one supercharger? GT4 had more options for god sake.

What about different types of superchargers or twinturbo for example, and why can't you install a supercharger and a turbo in the same car.

By the way, what happend to the turbo lag? There is hardly any difference between the biggest and smallest turbo

 

[Madman Apex]

Using drag racing vehicles as an example here is just silly. They blow up engines a lot, and have to rebuild them often.

in GT5 cars barely last about 250miles or km before they loose alot of power and need to "have an oil change". F1 engines last longer than that. even before they had the imposed engine limits.

What? So because a R32 GTR can make 1200bhp with a 2.6, in your eyes that means that a clio with a 1.4 should be able to hit 700bhp. Don't be silly. It all depends on the design of the individual engine, the number of cylinders, the capacity, the stroke of the crank, the head layout, the ability to rev etc etc etc etc Some engines are more tunable than others, FACT! It's called engineering.

you answered it yourself. a 6cylinder GTR or a 12 (read twelve) cylinder McLaren. twice as many pistons and basically twice the displacement; so it comes stock with twice the power.

 

[charliec]

I think the whole Turbo kits section in the game is a weird, because why can I only choose between three turbos and one supercharger? GT4 had more options for god sake.

What about different types of superchargers or twinturbo for example, and why can't you install a supercharger and a turbo in the same car.

By the way, what happend to the turbo lag? There is hardly any difference between the biggest and smallest turbo

Regarding twin charging, although it's possible IRL, it's not that common and not practical space-wise for many cars. It's not something that generates more peak power anyways, it's more to expand the powerband. I don't see this as being that great of a loss.

Regarding turbo lag, newer turbos (and better EMSs) are much better than older turbos at managing turbo lag. Drive a stock car like the F40 or the CTR Yellowbird (that presumbably would have older turbos on them) and they do exhibit turbo lag in my opinion. Just my 2¢.

 

[MaliciousMD]

I've gotten a lot of roots and twin screw style blower experience over the last few years working at an engine building & machine shop. Still a turbo kinda guy. There's a lot of informed and misinformed responses in this thread.

Yes a roots or twin screw positive displacement superchargers output are directly related to engine speed. Everyone seems to have left out the part of how much overdriving it will increase blower efficiency as related to engine speed. I think I read in one post someone saying the superchargers in GT5 are mimicked as small displacement blowers, like a 144 or 177 on a 350 Chevy. Your blowers displacement is far undersized to the size of the engine, this being the limiting factor in GT5's supercharger output. With this I totally agree.

Enough weaksauce small blower talk. Here's one of our 600cid, 14-71 magnesium case high helix blower, methanol mechanical injected drag boat engines on the dyno...

[YouTube]79kqvy19g4k&sns[/YouTube]

 

[TwinturboCH]

----Joke






---- Your head.
👍

Sorry, but there are so many people who ARE that stupid these days it's hard to tell the sarcastic from the retarded.

 

[TwinturboCH]

you answered it yourself. a 6cylinder GTR or a 12 (read twelve) cylinder McLaren. twice as many pistons and basically twice the displacement; so it comes stock with twice the power.

No, because that is a very specific example, plus it's not comparable as one engine is turbocharged and one isn't. You can get that skyline engine up to 1200bhp, by your logic, a McLaren F1 should be able to make 2500+ horsepower, which, quite frankly, is absurd.

 

[Matyltest]

Isnt there chargers that aren't driven directly of the crank?

IIRC i saw a charger that had some gearing on the beltside, so that it would give maximum boost all over the engines RPM range.

ANyway, McLaren F1 with DUAL skyline engines FTW!

 

[Madman Apex]

No, because that is a very specific example, plus it's not comparable as one engine is turbocharged and one isn't. You can get that skyline engine up to 1200bhp, by your logic, a McLaren F1 should be able to make 2500+ horsepower, which, quite frankly, is absurd.

no not really; the absurd part. yeah turbo the McLaren. Would any McLaren owner in real life with any kind of self respect do it?? NO!!! i'm confident that with a ridiculous amount of tunning you can get a skyline over 2000hp. it is ridiculous and overkill and probably wont live very long. but if a skyline can 'live' for a long time at say a more reasonable 800hp, a McLaren can survive at over 1000hp and is possible.
Ok look at the Viper, 500hp out of 8L-V10. That is horrible 'stock tuning'. A Toyota Corrola probably comes better tuned from the factory, not necessarily making more power. But Hennesy can throw in a turbo; bump it up to 777hp, over 800. Look at the twin turbo Saleen S7. 7L-V8, 550 stock. I cant remember what the twin turbo is rated at but i recall its ALOT, getting close to a ridiculous amount.
My point is that you can throw a turbo on any engine. With enough work you can throw in two turbos. I was just saying that the tuning is biased in favour of the Japanese cars. As has been pointed out elsewhere in these forums; the game is biased towards Japanese things. All i was saying is that the tuning isn't always consistent.

 

[Bigbazz]

in GT5 cars barely last about 250miles or km before they loose alot of power and need to "have an oil change". F1 engines last longer than that. even before they had the imposed engine limits.



you answered it yourself. a 6cylinder GTR or a 12 (read twelve) cylinder McLaren. twice as many pistons and basically twice the displacement; so it comes stock with twice the power.

You honestly think you can race an engine hard for 250miles and not have to change the oil? You think they just plant those F1 engines in the car and do the 1000+ miles on them without changing the oil?

Oh my..

 

[entropy731]

Sorry, but there are so many people who ARE that stupid these days it's hard to tell the sarcastic from the retarded.

New sig.

 

[430_Riviera]

Regarding twin charging, although it's possible IRL, it's not that common and not practical space-wise for many cars. It's not something that generates more peak power anyways, it's more to expand the powerband. I don't see this as being that great of a loss.

The current Seat Ibiza, Volkswagen Polo GTI and Skoda Fabia VRS all have twin charged 1.4l motors shoving out 180bhp. They are all small FWD hatchbacks. Suggesting that twin charging is not quite as A) rare or B) difficult to package or C) as useless as is mentioned.

i totally agree with you here. the thing is, most cars aren't designed to be tuned very much, but the japanese have produced the most tuneable cars for a very, very long time. a good friend of mine has an impreza WRX that originally had ~165whp and he's gotten it up to 206whp (~260chp) with just a downpipe, ecu tune, and increased boost in the turbo. only a couple hundred bucks right there. to increase fifty horses on a mustang or corvette you start talking serious aftermarket parts, like full exhaust and supercharger. Japan seems to really appreciate the value of buying a car and tuning it all yourself.

*Facepalm* My Fathers 81' Corvette has a balanced and blueprinted 383 stroker running 11.25 to 1 comp ratio cranking over 500hp and the entire motor cost less than a supercharger kit for a Civic over this side of the pond. It is also set up to take a 250 shot of NOS or a supercharger (800hp rated internals) without hassle. Large American V8 = soft standard tune but enormous potential. The 430 block in the '69 Riviera he owns is capable of holding 2000hp on the stock block. Only other motors I can think of are capable of that are the Viper 8.4l V10 truck motor and the RB26 in the Skyline.

 

[charliec]

The current Seat Ibiza, Volkswagen Polo GTI and Skoda Fabia VRS all have twin charged 1.4l motors shoving out 180bhp. They are all small FWD hatchbacks. Suggesting that twin charging is not quite as A) rare or B) difficult to package or C) as useless as is mentioned.

It's one thing to manufacturer a car with it, but how prevalent are aftermarket kits for the 1000+ cars in the game? I realize they are available, but for the limited numbers of cars that they exist for, is it really worth putting in the game or being upset about? I never also never said it was "useless", it's basically an anti-lag tactic. Since most cars with aftermarket turbos in GT5 don't suffer from lag anways...not sure about the point for wanting it?

 

[nickg07]

Yea... but why cant i throw on a rear mounted turbo set up?!

Because its a game with limited tuning capabilities.

How many people super charge and turbocharge a car in rewal life? Not many.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Yes a roots or twin screw positive displacement superchargers output are directly related to engine speed. Everyone seems to have left out the part of how much overdriving it will increase blower efficiency as related to engine speed.

That still scales linearly with engine RPM, you just get more boost at each point. And you're not really increasing blower efficiency by adding a gearset or switching to a smaller pulley, you just increase the total flow for a given engine RPM. I suppose you could get into variable gearsets to dynamically alter the step-up for the blower depending on engine RPM and load, but that's getting into a lot more complexity than the vast majority of people will ever get into.

While I agree that PD's supercharger and turbocharger models don't cover every single possibility, I think they do accurately cover what are far and away the most common options available.

 

[Madman Apex]

You honestly think you can race an engine hard for 250miles and not have to change the oil? You think they just plant those F1 engines in the car and do the 1000+ miles on them without changing the oil?

Oh my..

yeah i kinda left that vague. what i meant was the whole loosing power. when there was that seasonal event of the nascars at the nurburgring; i had to do about 250 miles of racing in order to loose all the extra power that an oil change adds so i could qualify for that seasonal event. Even in Nascar the engines wont loose that much power in the course of one race. they run 500miles during the Daytona 500; by the end sure the engine isnt as fresh as the start but it's not to the point that PD has made them in GT5. Look at LMP cars they are suppost to run 24hrs. In F1 from session to session i'm sure they change out lots of things, oil, filters, spark plugs etc etc; anything and everything they are allowed to in the regulations. In GT5 the engines degrade way too fast, i think anyways.

 

[freedomweasel]

The current Seat Ibiza, Volkswagen Polo GTI and Skoda Fabia VRS all have twin charged 1.4l motors shoving out 180bhp. They are all small FWD hatchbacks. Suggesting that twin charging is not quite as A) rare or B) difficult to package or C) as useless as is mentioned.

VWAG recently announced they were canning that engine due to cost. They have engines that are more simple, and perform better at a lower cost.

 

[SavageWhiteDude]

He's not correct because even though a roots and a twin screw are different, the basic way they work is still the same, which is that the higher the rpms, the most air is forced into the engine, and the most horsepower you will get.

And to the guy who said the engine will blow up with too much boost, tell that to these guys.

Not a very fair comparison. A track car running 100+ laps at a whack to a high performance dragster that gets a minor engine rebuild after every run and a major overhaul after the few runs it does in one weekend?

I think what they are trying to say is a small turbo won't have as much lag but it doesn't output as much boost as a big turbo at high rpm's. It's that simple. I think you guys are reading into it too much. Look at the hp/torque curves in the car setup screen. It will show just that.

As for a supercharger. They are limited. Once you hit a certain point they can't keep up with the engine and will begin to do the opposite of their intended purpose.

 

[SavageWhiteDude]

yeah i kinda left that vague. what i meant was the whole loosing power. when there was that seasonal event of the nascars at the nurburgring; i had to do about 250 miles of racing in order to loose all the extra power that an oil change adds so i could qualify for that seasonal event. Even in Nascar the engines wont loose that much power in the course of one race. they run 500miles during the Daytona 500; by the end sure the engine isnt as fresh as the start but it's not to the point that PD has made them in GT5. Look at LMP cars they are suppost to run 24hrs. In F1 from session to session i'm sure they change out lots of things, oil, filters, spark plugs etc etc; anything and everything they are allowed to in the regulations. In GT5 the engines degrade way too fast, i think anyways.

The problem, I feel, in GT5 is how they degrade. After a run a lot of the changes they do in NASCAR and F1 are simply precautionary. After running 70 laps reaching 10,000+ rpm's of course an F1 team isn't going to risk not changing out what they can for something fresh if it's allowed.

The mentality may be the same in GT5 but I hate the fact that after a couple of races in a Ferrari and it will cost me 1,000,000 credits to TUNE it. In a rebuild most of the stuff isn't replaced yet it still costs a racing team(that I'm assuming has the power to do most of the rebuild itself) one million credits for a rebuild. Hell, I can ship my classic Ferrari(if I had one ) to Maranello and have the entire thing restored for less than that!!!

 

[Khaddar]

The current Seat Ibiza, Volkswagen Polo GTI and Skoda Fabia VRS all have twin charged 1.4l motors shoving out 180bhp. They are all small FWD hatchbacks. Suggesting that twin charging is not quite as A) rare or B) difficult to package or C) as useless as is mentioned.

Claiming something isn't rare on the basis of one car (you forgot the Audi A1 by the way) is a little disingenuous.

 

[freedomweasel]

yeah i kinda left that vague. what i meant was the whole loosing power. when there was that seasonal event of the nascars at the nurburgring; i had to do about 250 miles of racing in order to loose all the extra power that an oil change adds so i could qualify for that seasonal event. Even in Nascar the engines wont loose that much power in the course of one race. they run 500miles during the Daytona 500; by the end sure the engine isnt as fresh as the start but it's not to the point that PD has made them in GT5. Look at LMP cars they are suppost to run 24hrs. In F1 from session to session i'm sure they change out lots of things, oil, filters, spark plugs etc etc; anything and everything they are allowed to in the regulations. In GT5 the engines degrade way too fast, i think anyways.

I recently read an article about the Daytona 24 hour race in the Rolex Series and it said that after the race was over the engines would idle at around 5-6k rpm, and so had to be shut off ASAP to avoid further damage. The engines used in the race were almost always torn down and sold for parts or scrap recycling. The article was written about past Daytona 24s (10-15 years ago) so I'm not sure how much has changed. Based on that though, race engines seem to take a fairly significant beating.

I know a lot of folks in our local club who autox more than I and/or do a lot of HPDEs change their oil pretty darn regularly, not too far from the GT5 intervals.

Just food for thought.

Claiming something isn't rare on the basis of one car (you forgot the Audi A1 by the way) is a little disingenuous.

And, as I said, I believe VW is replacing the engine due to cost/complexity. Cool idea, but simpler engines exist that do everything better.

 

[ac3h01e]

i totally agree with you here. the thing is, most cars aren't designed to be tuned very much, but the japanese have produced the most tuneable cars for a very, very long time. a good friend of mine has an impreza WRX that originally had ~165whp and he's gotten it up to 206whp (~260chp) with just a downpipe, ecu tune, and increased boost in the turbo. only a couple hundred bucks right there. to increase fifty horses on a mustang or corvette you start talking serious aftermarket parts,

I'm going to disagree with you there, like a lot. There is a ton of aftermarket support for popular American sports cars like Mustangs and Camaros, I think that for a couple hundred bucks you could relatively easily get 50 horsepower out of a big V8 engine.

 

[430_Riviera]

The concept of twincharging was successfully used by Lancia in the 1980s on the Lancia Delta S4 rally car. The idea was also successfully adapted to production road cars by Nissan, in their March Super Turbo [1]. Additionally, multiple companies have produced aftermarket twincharger kits for cars like the Subaru Impreza WRX, Mini Cooper S, Ford Mustang, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Toyota MR2, as well as the GM 3800 Engine, as in the Pontiac Bonneville SSEI, Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, and the Chevrolet Cobalt SS among others.

The Volkswagen 1.4TSI is a 1400 cc engine that utilizes both turbocharger and supercharger. It produces 170 bhp (127 kW; 172 PS) at 6000 rpm and 240 N·m (177 lb·ft) from 1500 to 4750 rpm

I'm not arguing it should have been included in GT5, hell there is a list as long as the GT5 car list of tuning options that should have been implemented in GT5 before twin charging, but there are cars that use it, and aftermarket kits to fit it. That is my point. It's also cool as hell. Maybe Forza 4 will have it, that would be awesome.

Also to the guy that uses top fuel dragsters as an example, they run the chargers at up to 74psi and it takes 900hp just to turn them. They run them because they are required to by NHRA rules. Just like they run the wrong gearing to limit speed and weaksauce fuel (90% nitro/methanol mix). It is likely that if they were allowed to run whatever tech they wanted they would be running high 3 second quarter miles and over 400mph. However that would seriously be pushing the limits of safety considering the crashes they presently have. Top fuelers also knacker the engines in just 1000 revolutions under load, during which the gases escaping from the exhausts (which point up and backwards for a reason) produce 800-1000lbs of additional downforce and thrust, and the force of the fuel injection can hang the throttle open even after the pedal is lifted. They are awesome but are built as disposable, once use rockets and have no place in this thread.

 

[Illopp00]

More like I dont think PD knows how the hell a supercharger SOUNDS LIKE. everytime I install one on a car I NEVER hear the S/C whine. Most pathetic oversight in the game.

I installed a supercharger AND a custom transmission on my Mustang GT and now I get plently of whine

 

[risewithefallen]

Nothing personal, because I love imports and agree with most of this statement, but the bolded text is just wrong. A set of long-tube headers will give you about 50 hp. A supercharger on a Corvette? Try a 150-200WHP gain.

Love all cars equally.

i don't own a corvette and dont really wish to so that knowlege is useless to me, but thanks for correcting it for others 👍

 

[Lil Ape]

I installed a supercharger AND a custom transmission on my Mustang GT and now I get plently of whine

That whine is just from the transmission. You don't hear a whine from any supercharged car in GT5, it's just silent. Even on a stock ford GT.

 

[freedomweasel]

That whine is just from the transmission. You don't hear a whine from any supercharged car in GT5, it's just silent. Even on a stock ford GT.

I think the was meant to show it's a joke.

Though, I dropped a supercharger into a miata and got a little whine, and the ZR1 has a little bit as well. Not as much as I'd expect though. On the other hand the turbo blowoff is much louder than it should be on a lot of cars. Oh well, could be worse.

 

[Bounkazz]

I think the topic starter has NO CLUE how a supercharger works...

 

[Dennisch]

.


I tell you what, I'll change my signature to a pic of an F1 car, does that make me Lewis Hamilton? Seriously dude, judging your opinion of what is correct on someones avatar? Please.

Oh dear, then I must be a criminal mastermind 👍