I forgot how fun Shuffle is...

[soap_hand]

I just spend the night in a shuffle room in GT5. It brought back so many memories. Literally, 100% of my time in GT5 was spent in shuffle lobbies. Not having to worry about what car you're driving, tunes, none of that! Just pure driving skill. So many close matches. I can't for the life of me understand why PD chose to leave this highly coveted feature out of GT6. I am so sad I have to go back to an old, inferior game in order to experience the game mode that initially hooked me on sim racing. Why, oh why PD have you forsaken me?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I just spend the night in a shuffle room in GT5. It brought back so many memories. Literally, 100% of my time in GT5 was spent in shuffle lobbies. Not having to worry about what car you're driving, tunes, none of that! Just pure driving skill. So many close matches. I can't for the life of me understand why PD chose to leave this highly coveted feature out of GT6. I am so sad I have to go back to an old, inferior game in order to experience the game mode that initially hooked me on sim racing. Why, oh why PD have you forsaken me?

I enjoyed shuffle in GT5 but IMO it was more about luck than about skill. At each PP level there were always cars that were world beaters and some that were duds. If you got lucky and got a good car you had a shot at a podium. Get a dud and you have no chance to even finish in the top half. Fields were generally very well spread out most of the time because of the huge disparity in performance. At 380PP I remember being 4 seconds/lap off the pace at Autumn Ring. At some PP levels you get muscle cars with trannies that top out halfway down the longest straight.

Shuffle has great potential but they need to refine the car list or allow hosts some control over what cars get into the mix.

 

[watermelon punch]

Thanks Johnnypenso for the wet blanket and the poo poo.

It takes a lot of skill to get into random different cars each race in succession that you haven't set up to your liking, and get the most from the "duds".
You can get the best car in the world, but if you don't drive it well, it's not going to make you win.
OTOH, you can claim all the skill in the world, but that's not going to stop misfortune from befalling you and "bad luck".
And fields were never spread out in my shuffle rooms.

Sorry JP that you spent some time in some lousy shuffle rooms & you don't like leaving things to chance or being put on the spot with a car you haven't tuned the crap out of , but I don't know what your point is here to come & poo-poo shuffle.

Don't like the format, fine.
But I can hardly see arguing for getting rid of chocolate ice cream just because you prefer vanilla.

 

[Tier 2 Racing]

I enjoyed shuffle in GT5 but IMO it was more about luck than about skill. At each PP level there were always cars that were world beaters and some that were duds. If you got lucky and got a good car you had a shot at a podium. Get a dud and you have no chance to even finish in the top half. Fields were generally very well spread out most of the time because of the huge disparity in performance. At 380PP I remember being 4 seconds/lap off the pace at Autumn Ring. At some PP levels you get muscle cars with trannies that top out halfway down the longest straight.

Shuffle has great potential but they need to refine the car list or allow hosts some control over what cars get into the mix.

Shuffle was the only online racing I did last year of GT5. I found it was more about who didn't get punted into turn 1. Just sandbag the start a bit, let them pile up and cruise on by to run a nice and tidy race to the checkered.

I have no idea why PD would leave it out.

 

[watermelon punch]

Shuffle was the only online racing I did last year of GT5. I found it was more about who didn't get punted into turn 1.

And that's different from rando public lobbies how??

 

[Johnnypenso]

Thanks Johnnypenso for the wet blanket and the poo poo.

It takes a lot of skill to get into random different cars each race in succession that you haven't set up to your liking, and get the most from the "duds".
You can get the best car in the world, but if you don't drive it well, it's not going to make you win.
OTOH, you can claim all the skill in the world, but that's not going to stop misfortune from befalling you and "bad luck".
And fields were never spread out in my shuffle rooms.

Sorry JP that you spent some time in some lousy shuffle rooms & you don't like leaving things to chance or being put on the spot with a car you haven't tuned the crap out of , but I don't know what your point is here to come & poo-poo shuffle.

Don't like the format, fine.
But I can hardly see arguing for getting rid of chocolate ice cream just because you prefer vanilla.

You assume too much my friend. I'm not poo-pooing shuffle at all, just offering up my honest opinion. It's good, it's fun, but like a lot of GT it has unrealized potential for greatness with just some small tweaking. I shuffled quite a bit the last year of GT and was in well run shuffle rooms when I did so. One thing you learn when you drive a ton of cars like I did in GT5 was that every car has a limit of performance and many of them are seconds apart when tuned, and further apart when not tuned, often due to poor stock gearboxes and balance/rotation issues. I did enjoy many shuffle races but it was always frustrating to be the guy ending up in the Aristo when 7 other guys ended up in Impreza's, Evo's and Elises. A very bad driver in an Elise or Impreza will waltz away from a very good driver in an Aristo any day

And that's different from rando public lobbies how??

Qualifying..not available in shuffle.

 

[watermelon punch]

How does qualifying makes sure you don't get punted off in the 1st turn?
Seems to me the people who don't make pole for qualifying are even more likely to be so anxious to get ahead in the first turn they'll be punting people off.

Anyhow, savvy shuffle hosts stayed away from the PPs with the Evos & Elises.

Also, you don't have to tell me how cars have differences when not tuned. Me & my pals have tested dozens now. Dozens. Untuned. To the point of being able to say whether they're competitive or not even close.

But when you tune cars... let's face it... is it about driving skill? Or are you winning a tuning contest? 💡

 

[Devil240Z]

I wish you could do shuffle one make races. its a random car but everyone gets the same car.

 

[watermelon punch]

I wish you could do shuffle one make races. its a random car but everyone gets the same car.

There's the 1-make garage in gt6.
Though frankly it looked more limited than the GT5 Recommended Garage.

But that would be more easy to rig than shuffle anyhow.
You make a club where you have a list of cars, and those are the ones that will be used... and everyone gets them prepared.

 

[Ninners]

I think Quick Matches might be similar but I don't know any facts.

 

[Devil240Z]

There's the 1-make garage in gt6.
Though frankly it looked more limited than the GT5 Recommended Garage.

But that would be more easy to rig than shuffle anyhow.
You make a club where you have a list of cars, and those are the ones that will be used... and everyone gets them prepared.

It would be cool if you could do one makes based off a car from your garage.

I think Quick Matches might be similar but I don't know any facts.

makes sense actually. no quicker way to get into a race if you don't have to pick a car.

 

[watermelon punch]

It would be cool if you could do one makes based off a car from your garage.

Yeah I've never understood why the regulations settings in the lobby can't be specific to a particular model.
But you can always kick people who refuse to get in teh same car.

 

[miata13B]

Got to say here that the shuffle mixes were a ton of fun in GT5 when I played it met many talented and untalented drivers going into shuffle rooms.

Now with the debate on, JP I do agree that there were cars that you get that no matter what you do you can't keep up a prime example is the 69 Camaro. Tons of power but no top end for a lot of tracks. This would severely handicap a race. The people I raced with would automatically reshuffle if a muscle car came up.

Watermelon, I see your involved in the mix master shuffle on GT6 and you have tested out cars to make it possible to do that. I like the idea and watching it come to fruition. I wish PD would take a lesson from you an all that participate.

I do agree with JP that shuffle races should have qualifying. It is not a matter of avoiding 1st turn pile ups. 1st turn messes are more of a matter of people who join your room that you are not familiar driving with. I could not tell you if bachelor number 1 that just joined our "clean racing shuffle" room is an aware and clean racer. If it had qualifying you hopefully would be able to set it fastest in the rear or front depending on preference.

I would love to see a refined shuffle option come out soon. Maybe with an adjustable tranny option so if you get stuck with a muscle car that has no top speed near any other car, it would allow up to a predetermined top speed for the track your racing on.

 

[watermelon punch]

If it had qualifying you hopefully would be able to set it fastest in the rear or front depending on preference.

If people know it's slowest first... many will sandbag anyway.
If you have fastest first... people would figure out in qualifying who had better cars & could drive them well, and the people with the duds would leave.

btw: "mix master shuffle"
I wish I thought of that.
But I probably would've been sued by Black & Decker Sunbeam for copyright infringement or something.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I loved shuffle racing, it was what I did for 90% of my time online. I agree with Johnny though, often there was a lot of close racing, but there were too many times when the field of cars were massively uneven, and no matter how skilled you are, some races were impossible to finish, let alone be competitive. If it returns to GT6, it needs to be tweaked, it's not much fun when you have a bad handling car that tops out at 112mph, in a 500 base race on High Speed Ring.

 

[lintels123]

I'm going to be honest here. I REALLY enjoy playing GT6 with both my ds3 and df gt. Although i haven't been regularly playing lately. A large part of that is the lack of shuffle racing. It's what made it worth getting online, seeing about 6 friends playing GT5, and knowing there will be 1 shuffle lobby up with atleast 3 friends already in and many familiar names soon to join the room. The amazing battles that would be taking place all night. The fact that i can't do this yet on GT6 has it so i turn on the ps3, see 4-5 friends on GT6, me thinking "they are probably in a cruise, drag, spec lobby, or just going through single player.". I then end up either netflixing it, gtav, or end up watching iRacing replays and youtube videos of close sports car racing.

In short, oh how i miss shuffle...

 

[eran0004]

90% of the online racing I did in GT5 was shuffle racing. A big part of why I liked it so much is because the variety of cars and because there was no tuning. Of course some times the car you got assigned made it impossible to win, but regardless of the car you got, there was always someone else that you could have a close race with. Sometimes it was a close race for 8th position, sometimes it was for 1st. In both cases it was great fun.

 

[Cosbuster]

It's funny how they kept advertising how the improved the online experience and it currently has less than GT5. Shuffle gone is a huge blow, it was basically one of the best features of the game that kept me busy for hundreds of hours.

 

[ace004]

@Johnnypenso explained the majority of my experience with shuffle. It was a great idea that was fun but had a crucial flaw. It would be so much better if the lobby leader had more options to alter the type of cars that you could get. PP racing always had tighter races when you play with guys that know how to tune and pick competitive cars. But you rarely see that in open public lobbies. With a few alterations shuffle would be awesome.

 

[FT-1]

The demise of shuffle leaves me with virtually no reason to enter public lobbies, I loved the ability to get onto a track almost instantly without fiddling through various options. Adding shuffle is crucial for the long-term appeal of GT6 online. Or at least the 'quick match' feature in the near future, if it is as good as it sounds.

 

[VBR]

I enjoyed shuffle in GT5 but IMO it was more about luck than about skill.

Sometimes that was true, especially if you were racing against guys who's natural pace was similar to yours & you were given very different cars. But often times I found it not to be true when racing against a field of drivers of differing talents, which was usually the case in Shuffle rooms, & here's where Shuffle racing comes into it's own.

Let me explain; I have a great driver on my PSN friends list, unfortunately he's slower than me & I'm faster than him, so we never get to actually race each other in a spec race. Now, in a Shuffle race where there is a difference in cars, & the faster drivers get given slower cars, & the slower drivers get given faster cars, we get to compete on a level field. The race then does very much become about skill, & not luck. I remember we had a mini-epic of a race at Monaco, with me in a slow muscle car & him in a scooby, we were dead even as regards pace, it was intense. Now without Shuffle, I'd never get to experience that with drivers like him.

I used to Shuffle a lot, & this happened to me so many times. Many many races with drivers of differing abilities in cars that more or less matched their differing abilities, & that evened the field. It's kind of like a very rough & ready form of parity racing, & no it doesn't work 100% of the time, but when it does the racing is fantastic. Then there are the times when I've been in Shuffle races with guys who are on the same pace as me, & we were in the exact same car. I've had Shuffle races where the top 4 drivers all finished within 7 tenths of each other, some in the same car & others in different ones. However, the Shuffle ratio should always be set low, to 0,1, or 2 at the most, otherwise the difference between cars would become increasingly unsuitable for evening the field.

Personally, I don't think Shuffle was broken at all in GT5. I think it's flaws were also it's strong point in a strange kind of way. If I got a muscle car that topped out at 114mph, then my own challenge was simply not to come last! I beat many guys in Evo's & Scoobies whilst driving cars like that, simply because of our differing natural pace. Racing in GT games is mainly about enjoyment for most of us, not just about always having a chance at winning.

I say bring it back, but with loads more options. It's by no means a perfect system, but it sure was a lot of fun!

 

[Griffith500]

The real skill with Shuffle was hosting the rooms. You have to pick the right PP level and, perhaps more crucially spread, to suit the people racing, and the course itself.

The other thing is that Shuffle is not about the podium, it's about where you place relative to the other cars and drivers. You build up an awareness, as races progress, of who your opponents are and what cars they benefit from, and the banter and camaraderie that builds up is fun, too. Newcomers always get a beastly car, too, which adds an interesting dynamic.

That skill leveling effect from being a couple of races into a session makes for some truly excellent racing, with next to no prior investment - and that is the real benefit of Shuffle, for me. It's pick-up gold.

Of course, this is all provided drivers are of the same mindset. Giving people the boot is necessary sometimes, but I preferred gentle encouragement. People quickly learned that their chance to "win" would come around eventually if they played to their strengths (and those of their car at any given moment, which has this sort of well-rounding effect on the driving skill set), and soon realised that "winning" was possible in positions other than "first", as above. I find it's much more sporting that way, which is why this pastime exists in the first place.


To each their own, but Shuffle is no more luck-dominated than any other "mode" if done correctly.

 

[VBR]

That skill leveling effect from being a couple of races into a session makes for some truly excellent racing, with next to no prior investment - and that is the real benefit of Shuffle, for me.

That's right, you have to do many races in a row with everyone else doing the same before the leveling effects truly kick in. Problems come when drivers quit the race, & then inherit pole in the next race (as it's all reverse grids). This is probably my only real criticism; drivers who join a Shuffle race, or those who quit the previous race, should start at the rear not the front. This will keep the reverse grid effect intact for the guys who have been racing in the room for a while & who are finishing races regardless of their positions.

 

[xSNAKEx]

Got to say here that the shuffle mixes were a ton of fun in GT5 when I played it met many talented and untalented drivers going into shuffle rooms.

Now with the debate on, JP I do agree that there were cars that you get that no matter what you do you can't keep up a prime example is the 69 Camaro. Tons of power but no top end for a lot of tracks. This would severely handicap a race. The people I raced with would automatically reshuffle if a muscle car came up.

Watermelon, I see your involved in the mix master shuffle on GT6 and you have tested out cars to make it possible to do that. I like the idea and watching it come to fruition. I wish PD would take a lesson from you an all that participate.

I do agree with JP that shuffle races should have qualifying. It is not a matter of avoiding 1st turn pile ups. 1st turn messes are more of a matter of people who join your room that you are not familiar driving with. I could not tell you if bachelor number 1 that just joined our "clean racing shuffle" room is an aware and clean racer. If it had qualifying you hopefully would be able to set it fastest in the rear or front depending on preference.

I would love to see a refined shuffle option come out soon. Maybe with an adjustable tranny option so if you get stuck with a muscle car that has no top speed near any other car, it would allow up to a predetermined top speed for the track your racing on.

You assume too much my friend. I'm not poo-pooing shuffle at all, just offering up my honest opinion. It's good, it's fun, but like a lot of GT it has unrealized potential for greatness with just some small tweaking. I shuffled quite a bit the last year of GT and was in well run shuffle rooms when I did so. One thing you learn when you drive a ton of cars like I did in GT5 was that every car has a limit of performance and many of them are seconds apart when tuned, and further apart when not tuned, often due to poor stock gearboxes and balance/rotation issues. I did enjoy many shuffle races but it was always frustrating to be the guy ending up in the Aristo when 7 other guys ended up in Impreza's, Evo's and Elises. A very bad driver in an Elise or Impreza will waltz away from a very good driver in an Aristo any day

Qualifying..not available in shuffle.

Urgh you guys are completely and utterly missing the point of shuffle racing. Its not about everyone in the field getting an equal opportunity at the podium. Think of it like a Best motoring battle. Your job is to extract the best from the car you are given no matter the circumstances.

Whether you win or not is just an outcome of the event, it is not the purpose of racing. The purpose is to pit a range of cars against each other and see what happens + have fun.

Its pot luck if you have a chance at winning. That's why its called SHUFFLE racing. But this shouldn't matter Sometimes the person that comes last can be viewed as the best driver because they got a bad car but drove well.

People can take this into account.

 

[Johnnypenso]

How does qualifying makes sure you don't get punted off in the 1st turn?
Seems to me the people who don't make pole for qualifying are even more likely to be so anxious to get ahead in the first turn they'll be punting people off.

Anyhow, savvy shuffle hosts stayed away from the PPs with the Evos & Elises.

Also, you don't have to tell me how cars have differences when not tuned. Me & my pals have tested dozens now. Dozens. Untuned. To the point of being able to say whether they're competitive or not even close.

But when you tune cars... let's face it... is it about driving skill? Or are you winning a tuning contest? 💡

The only way to avoid Evo's and Elises and Muscle cars etc. was to not use those PP levels or to re-shuffle and that didn't always work. Which was my point... Shuffle was fun sometimes but it was flawed if you have to avoid certain PP levels because they were so uneven. 400PP was another good example. You'd get 2 tire grades, CS and SH. Be one of the 3 or 4 on CS and you're sunk and well off the pace most of the time.

Allowing hosts to determine tires would the 400PP problem, a very simple fix that available in every other lobby but not shuffle. Setting up the selection process so no car is on track unless it's top speed exceeds the track's top speed or it's given a better transmission is also quite simple and would make things much easier. Controlling drivetrains would also make it much better sometimes. You could eliminate the Elises that way or you could have field of Evo's and Lancer's if you wanted to just by limiting drivetrains. Introducing a weight limit or power limit could help sort things out.

Given the right tools one could make shuffle a much closer racing proposition IMO.

Urgh you guys are completely and utterly missing the point of shuffle racing. Its not about everyone in the field getting an equal opportunity at the podium.

Its pot luck if you have a chance at winning. That's why its called SHUFFLE racing. But this shouldn't matter Sometimes the person that comes last can be viewed as the best driver because they got a bad car but drove well.

People can take this into account.

I disagree. Wouldn't the ideal situation, assuming we all had the skill to do so, be a field that is tightly packed from start to finish? I don't care about my finishing position, most of my most memorable races I lost, what I care about is being able to compete and feel like I'm part of the race, not battling it out for 14th with one other guy, 45 seconds off the pace. Yes that's fun sometimes, but I'd rather be battling it out for 14th place 4 seconds off the pace with 15 other guys wouldn't you?

 

[BrandonW77]

Urgh you guys are completely and utterly missing the point of shuffle racing. Its not about everyone in the field getting an equal opportunity at the podium. Think of it like a Best motoring battle. Your job is to extract the best from the car you are given no matter the circumstances.

Whether you win or not is just an outcome of the event, it is not the purpose of racing. The purpose is to pit a range of cars against each other and see what happens + have fun.

Its pot luck if you have a chance at winning. That's why its called SHUFFLE racing. But this shouldn't matter Sometimes the person that comes last can be viewed as the best driver because they got a bad car but drove well.

People can take this into account.

The only way to avoid Evo's and Elises and Muscle cars etc. was to not use those PP levels or to re-shuffle and that didn't always work. Which was my point... Shuffle was fun sometimes but it was flawed if you have to avoid certain PP levels because they were so uneven. 400PP was another good example. You'd get 2 tire grades, CS and SH. Be one of the 3 or 4 on CS and you're sunk and well off the pace most of the time.

Allowing hosts to determine tires would the 400PP problem, a very simple fix that available in every other lobby but not shuffle. Setting up the selection process so no car is on track unless it's top speed exceeds the track's top speed or it's given a better transmission is also quite simple and would make things much easier. Controlling drivetrains would also make it much better sometimes. You could eliminate the Elises that way or you could have field of Evo's and Lancer's if you wanted to just by limiting drivetrains. Introducing a weight limit or power limit could help sort things out.

Given the right tools one could make shuffle a much closer racing proposition IMO.


I disagree. Wouldn't the ideal situation, assuming we all had the skill to do so, be a field that is tightly packed from start to finish? I don't care about my finishing position, most of my most memorable races I lost, what I care about is being able to compete and feel like I'm part of the race, not battling it out for 14th with one other guy, 45 seconds off the pace. Yes that's fun sometimes, but I'd rather be battling it out for 14th place 4 seconds off the pace with 15 other guys wouldn't you?

Different strokes for different folks. Some like apples, some like bananers. I never really experienced shuffle racing until the latter stages of GT5's life and while I enjoyed it as a fun driving activity it never really scratched my itch for intense racing. But when I shuffle raced I wasn't really looking for that kind of action, I was just wanting to drive a multitude of random cars and see grids full of random cars. It was fun when I won and sometimes a miserable experience when I was in a '69 Camaro at Monza but to me that's all part of the petrolhead/GT experience. If I wanted serious racing I'd look for a spec, tuning prohibited race on sports tires or less. If I wanted to just be a petrolhead and go for a drive I'd do shuffle races and even if I got a '69 Camaro at Monza it was enjoyable in its own way even though it had no hope of doing well.

But this was just my outlook on it and that doesn't mean everyone else has to see it the same way. Some intense racing could be had in shuffle racing but most of the shuffle rooms I encountered were only 3 or 4 lap races which isn't long enough for intense, serious racing. It was more like an appetizer sampler than the main course.

 

[watermelon punch]

Let me explain; I have a great driver on my PSN friends list, unfortunately he's slower than me & I'm faster than him, so we never get to actually race each other in a spec race. Now, in a Shuffle race where there is a difference in cars, & the faster drivers get given slower cars, & the slower drivers get given faster cars, we get to compete on a level field. The race then does very much become about skill, & not luck.

Yes! This.
Because it gives everybody a challenge.
In our Mixer Makeshift Shuffle, you can see some of "the fast guys" have a real challenge. They don't just race alone at the front and easily win podiums all the time with the same competitors racing to the line race after race.
This is an issue with 1-make racing... where everyone has a pretty good idea who their rivals are each race, and which cars they will be seeing on the track the most, and who will likely make the podium finish.
When it's mixed up in a shuffle situation - you get to see more of the grid in the races. Which means more challenge & variety, because you don't already know so well their habits inside out because you race against them in every race and watch their driving. So I think that adds to the challenge... for everyone, fast guys or average guys or whoever.

I think it really comes down to variety being the main attraction.

 

[Ameer67]

Don't know why they took it out. It was fun to see what car you got and how it would handle compared to others. It was what I did half the time I was online in GT5.

PD and their weird ways.

 

[watermelon punch]

Don't know why they took it out. It was fun to see what car you got and how it would handle compared to others. It was what I did half the time I was online in GT5.

PD and their weird ways.

Yeah, that's definitely another aspect of this that's enticing... is that it's a showcase of the peculiarities, weaknesses, & strengths of different cars...
Getting to know the particulars about certain cars on certain tracks.
So it's kind of a two-for... Drivers are racing... and cars are racing!
The other day in our shuffle, which goes by car assignments according to the previous race finish results... I won a race. Of course I was happy about winning a race, but my very first thought was - Oh I'm finally going to get to drive the #1 car! Of course the #1 car stinks comparatively, but I still looked forward to "trying it out for myself".
I was actually thinking, as I headed toward the finish line... I'm going to get to drive that car now finally!

 

[Tier 2 Racing]

And that's different from rando public lobbies how??

Didn't have racing softs in shuffle.