I have a solution to this bumping nonsence online...

[PUGS1688]

Why not just eliminate the bumping? That is what is causing the main issue for everyone, isn't it? Basically if you have to cars side by side and one car decided the bump the other, the one getting bumped doesn't move. In other words, the other racers have no bearing on moving your car. They can bump into you, causing there car to bump and spin out, leaving you unharmed.

Is it unrealistic? Yes. But it would reward those who chose to race for real and it would truly be competitive, the way I want it to be, and I'm sure all us want it to be. And at the same time, the players that are doing the bumping, would feel like idiots when they keep banging into brick walls and they are the ones spinning out.


I mean am I talking gibberish here or is this a good idea?

 

[nissan tuner]

or we can wait for damage thats coming in fall. PD also needs to get of their lazy bums and create a proper penalty system

 

[seizure_]

basically the idea sounds similiar to the online mode of F1:CE which allows to turn off the physical contact with one another - racing each other's 'ghost'

if only PD allow users to turn such function on/off

 

[WARonWAR]

DAMAGE! that should fix it.... (long time coming)

 

[Masi_23]

If Collision was to be turned off then it would be just a time trial session... ill wait for damage. It'll be worth it

 

[PUGS1688]

Well its not as if your a ghost the entire time. You can still block others from going around you, and prevent passes. It would just prevent other cars from ramming you off the road. I didn't know about the damage, hopefully it will work nicely.

 

[Masi_23]

Yahp, F1CE has this option. Collision is turned off but you can still catch a slipstream from the other cars. But Its not as engaging since you wont worry about other cars other than the rumble strips, grass, or sandtraps.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

or we can wait for damage thats coming in fall. PD also needs to get of their lazy bums and create a proper penalty system

You do realize that when two cars make contact... both cars can and likely will get damaged?

I've been asking and hoping for optional realistic damage effects in GT for a very long, and after seeing how well damage is implemented in F1CE my hopes have never been higher... granted, there is still the issue of getting all the manufacturers to allow for realistic damage for the licensed road cars.

That said, anyone who has played F1CE online and been in enough races will tell you, having the damage turned on doesn't magically make everyone drive more carefully, and nothing is more frustrating than getting DNFed from damage near the end of the race after someone slams into you from the rear... but that's realism for you.

Frankly, I am actually quite impressed on how well, given the complexity of such an algorithm, the current penalty system in GT5P does attempt, and often succeed in determining when someone is clearly malicious.

For instance, any lapped driver automatically becomes a ghost car such that they can never hit or be hit by any of the other cars. Also, when a car loses control it often temporarily becomes a ghost car such that it also wont interfere with the other drivers. I've even seen cases where one driver was clearly trying to take out another and because of their erratic maneuvers they became a ghost car. 👍

I also know from first hand experience that I have never gotten a penalty due to someone else hitting me from behind... so at least in many respects the penalty system does work as far as trying to punish the dirty racers.

Sure, it could be a lot better in theory, but then again a lot of things are easy in theory... in actual practice however, it could be extremely difficult to program for and implement it without negatively impacting innocent players.

At the very least what I would like to see is far more severe time penalties. I mean it's ridiculous in my opinion that you can have a severe impact of a wall or another car and only be slowed down by a little bit for only 5 or so seconds. Come on! In a real race, even a slight rub up against the walls of Daytona is almost a guaranteed DNF.

If the penalties were at least 30 seconds I think that would make many of the reckless drivers think twice... although let us not forget, many people aren't hardcore sim drivers... they just enjoy having fun, and their idea of fun may very well be quite different then our own. This is why the biggest thing PD can do to improve the online experience is to give us optional private races, as well as allow the host to select the race parameters. 👍👍

Finally, calling PD lazy bums is probably not a good motivator, nor does it even sound remotely accurate. While I wouldn't know for certain, but from interviews, video tours of PD's offices, the enormous workload games like this require... I seriously doubt PD are lazy bums.

If you are not sure what a lazy bum is, you may want to first look at games like NASCAR 08 and Madden 08 for a far better example. Just a thought mind you.

 

[homeforsummer]

For instance, any lapped driver automatically becomes a ghost car such that they can never hit or be hit by any of the other cars. Also, when a car loses control it often temporarily becomes a ghost car such that it also wont interfere with the other drivers. I've even seen cases where one driver was clearly trying to take out another and because of their erratic maneuvers they became a ghost car. 👍

It's quite amsusing when that happens actually - the driver is so concentrated on hitting someone that they become a ghost and pass right through, and spin off onto the gravel. Or when someone brakes way too late and they sail right through you.

I also know from first hand experience that I have never gotten a penalty due to someone else hitting me from behind... so at least in many respects the penalty system does work as far as trying to punish the dirty racers.

The only penalties from behind i've got are when I've braked for a hairpin, say at Suzuka, and in turning across someone tries to squeeze down the inside from way back, hits me, and I get a penalty. It's annoying because the mistake was theirs, I have the corner, and sometimes you can be left with a 5 second penalty on the way out of the corner if they hit you hard enough.

 

[KakCAT]

Why not just eliminate the bumping? That is what is causing the main issue for everyone, isn't it? Basically if you have to cars side by side and one car decided the bump the other, the one getting bumped doesn't move. In other words, the other racers have no bearing on moving your car. They can bump into you, causing there car to bump and spin out, leaving you unharmed.

how can you decide who's bumping who?

 

[mindwise]

how can you decide who's bumping who?

Well, i guess the car that has the 'point of impact' the furthest to it's front should be penalized.

That should settle the corners and 'braking to corner' parts. It would however encourage 'brake testing' the guy slipstreaming you on straights, getting her/him a penalty.
I think that can be easily covered by adding 'sections' for the straights where the above rule does not apply, and not untill the brake zone for corners and the corners themselves are reached will the 'impact furthest to the front' rule come into play.

Ofcourse this will not settle the scenario where two cars are in the same corner and one car trying to corner too fast, gaining lead but sliding into the other car causing a collission where the other car is 'touching' more to it's front.
That might be covered by adding a 'slipping tyre' factor or something.

I guess the most important is getting a simple understandable solution that is encourages clean driving.
I myself am not too worried with getting exact rl race rules, but i'm interested in getting the gameplay more exiting and promoting clean driving.

Does this sound reasonable to anyone?, anyone suggestions/critique?

Race you later,

 

[slicecom]

I'm not a fan of any of any ghosting at all. Infact I'd like them to add an option to turn the ghosting off altogether once we get private rooms.

 

[Biggles]

I've been asking and hoping for optional realistic damage effects in GT for a very long, and after seeing how well damage is implemented in F1CE my hopes have never been higher... granted, there is still the issue of getting all the manufacturers to allow for realistic damage for the licensed road cars.

Like you, I'm a big admirer of F1:CE because the game does what is necessary to make the game-play work, without worrying about "perfection". The damage system is actually quite simple, visually & functionally, but it's completely effective in forcing you to drive "realistically". Any serious contact in F1:CE (as IRL F1) is likely to terminate your race, so a big part of learning the game , is learning how to time your braking & passing in order to maximize your speed while avoiding contact.

However, damage in F1:CE is easier to model partly because of the fragile nature of F1 cars: a wing is smashed, a wheel drops off. With road cars, I can see that it's a harder task to decide how to model the effects of contact. IMO, how PD does this, is going to be the critical feature in how successful GT5 is.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I'm not a fan of any of any ghosting at all. Infact I'd like them to add an option to turn the ghosting off altogether once we get private rooms.

While I like the option of having ghosting, I also agree that I would like the option to turn it off, turn it on, as well as how it is now, where it comes on and off depending on the circumstances.

It's all about giving the players more options, so that there are more choices for everyone to pick from that suit there interest at any given time. 👍

Like you, I'm a big admirer of F1:CE because the game does what is necessary to make the game-play work, without worrying about "perfection". The damage system is actually quite simple, visually & functionally, but it's completely effective in forcing you to drive "realistically". Any serious contact in F1:CE (as IRL F1) is likely to terminate your race, so a big part of learning the game , is learning how to time your braking & passing in order to maximize your speed while avoiding contact.

QFT 👍

However, damage in F1:CE is easier to model partly because of the fragile nature of F1 cars: a wing is smashed, a wheel drops off. With road cars, I can see that it's a harder task to decide how to model the effects of contact. IMO, how PD does this, is going to be the critical feature in how successful GT5 is.

I'm not sure how critical damage modeling is going to be in regards to the success of GT5, and if anything, considering the complexity of it, should it be done realistically, combined with the enormous number of cars, combined with the fact that no game so far has ever been released with as many licensed production cars that have realistic damage... and the speculation is that some manufacturers won't permit it.

Race cars is a different kettle of fish, but I'm not expecting realistic damage modeling for production cars any time soon... but will be pleasantly surprised if it happens.

I still think you can achieve the same effect as damage has on the races in F1CE, by implementing a much more severe penalty system in GT5P & GT5.

However, there are so many other reasons why I have really liked the past GT series of games, that in no way will the lack of damage and the lack of a realistic penalty system keep me from enjoying GT5P & GT5... I just know the games, for me, would be that much better if they did have both those features in place.

 

[Joe43302]

Brake zones are the best idea for hard straight hitters into corners. You could counter brake testers by putting a zone on the straight where if you're braking, you shouldn't be, penalty. If you're on the straights on Suzuka and you're mashing the brakes in the middle, something is up. However there should be a zone approaching the corner where any contact, especially hard contact, from an opponent behind you results in their penalty. It's very simple, if you smash into my car with a good deal of speed, you should be severely penalized. I'd say if I smash into you at 160MPH, 20 second penalty, and if you go off track, add a black flag 35MPH pass through on the pit. Let's say I smash you, and it causes you to smash into another player. Add something like a 3-5 second grace period so to avoid abusing it (you intentionally hitting another player), and you get an automatic black flag pass through on top of a 30 second stop in the pit box.

That system isn't perfect, but it's better than what we've got. depending on the PP set, you should be required to maintain a minimum speed before your car ghosts. This isn't to penalize people, but to help others get back on track if they got rammed off or lost control. Pulling back on track with the dirty tires while avoiding accidents is a right pain in the ass, so let's eliminate it! Let's say you go off on the S-turns in Suzuka, you must maintain 3 seconds of 60MPH in the 750PP runs before your car has a collision property again (with other cars). The way I see it, if you can maintain a just slightly slower average speed (which is usually a good 70-80) than the turns call for, you can probably compose yourself and navigate again. Don't start turning collision off when cars get on the track, give them a few seconds to gather themselves. This would also have the added benefit of stopping those who park their cars to sabotage others, or intentionally drive slow to provide little moving road blocks.

What if someone side swipes you off the road? Look at where it occured, and decide who the aggressor is. If you were in second place and pulled alongside first on the outside of a right turning curve, should their be sustained impact or touching from your car to his, and he ends up off road, it's fairly obvious you pushed him off. What to do? 20 second penalty, pit pass through.

The pit pass throughs wouldn't work on the last lap, and we all know that's when they occur the most, so simulating the time it takes to drive 35MPH through the pits and adding that to the penalty is a good idea, since unless there are cars that can't drive 35MPH, the time it takes should all be the same. If it happens within a certain distance of the finish? Well, I reckon a forced stop would be the answer. Computer takes over, forces it to the side, ghosts it, and you sit out the penalty.

I know it all sounds extreme, but whatever, learn to drive without hitting people, or learn to deal with the consequences.

 

[BB-ANDY-]

all we need is for an option that is collisions off, this might be coming in autumn/fall

 

[Biggles]

I'm not sure how critical damage modeling is going to be in regards to the success of GT5, and if anything, considering the complexity of it, should it be done realistically, combined with the enormous number of cars, combined with the fact that no game so far has ever been released with as many licensed production cars that have realistic damage... and the speculation is that some manufacturers won't permit it.

Race cars is a different kettle of fish, but I'm not expecting realistic damage modeling for production cars any time soon... but will be pleasantly surprised if it happens.

I still think you can achieve the same effect as damage has on the races in F1CE, by implementing a much more severe penalty system in GT5P & GT5.

However, there are so many other reasons why I have really liked the past GT series of games, that in no way will the lack of damage and the lack of a realistic penalty system keep me from enjoying GT5P & GT5... I just know the games, for me, would be that much better if they did have both those features in place.

Agreed. I don't think damage will be critical to the commercial success of GT5, but I do think that PD will lose their leadership position if they don't do something significant in this area.

I'm struck, when I go back to F1:CE, after playing GT5P for a while, how "primitive" F1:CE seems in comparison: simple graphics, basic physics. But as soon as I start racing, I'm totally immersed in it - Studio Liverpool (presumably on a tiny budget compared to PD) put the things into the game that actually matter.

I know when GT5 comes along, it will be a massive game, featuring hundreds of cars & dozens of tracks. Personally, I would prefer having a third of the cars & having PD focus their resources on AI, collision physics & damage - I'll take quality over quantity.

 

[F1KimiFreak]

I have an idea, how about that studio liverpool (its a sony studio) and polyphone digital (also sony) share data? It could help both studio's.

 

[Ardius]

I have an idea, how about that studio liverpool (its a sony studio) and polyphone digital (also sony) share data? It could help both studio's.

I like this....mostly because Studio Liverpool are a future employer to me

 

[F1KimiFreak]

I like this....mostly because Studio Liverpool are a future employer to me

cool employer! 👍 when youre starting?

 

[Ardius]

cool employer! 👍 when youre starting?

lol, not for a few years, perhaps I should have worded it as "future potential empoyer". Other potential employers are Free Radical Design (Nottingham), Rockstar Leeds (Leeds, lol), Rare (Staffordshire), Kuju Entertainment Studio Chemistry (Sheffield), Codemasters (Warwickshire)................loads of others.

We (as in, me and my fellow programmers) are thinking of perhaps forming our own games studio here in Manchester. This will all have to wait till Ive actually finished my degree though.

Anyway, crazy off topic.

 

[F1KimiFreak]

ah sorry misunderstood it! anyway cool future job!

*sorry for offtopic*

 

[lbloom]

You do realize that when two cars make contact... both cars can and likely will get damaged?

Frankly, I am actually quite impressed on how well, given the complexity of such an algorithm, the current penalty system in GT5P does attempt, and often succeed in determining when someone is clearly malicious.

You're right I've seen this happen

For instance, any lapped driver automatically becomes a ghost car such that they can never hit or be hit by any of the other cars. Also, when a car loses control it often temporarily becomes a ghost car such that it also wont interfere with the other drivers. I've even seen cases where one driver was clearly trying to take out another and because of their erratic maneuvers they became a ghost car. 👍


Another very good point

I also know from first hand experience that I have never gotten a penalty due to someone else hitting me from behind... so at least in many respects the penalty system does work as far as trying to punish the dirty racers.

Not in my experience. I have been hit from behind and got penalized



At the very least what I would like to see is far more severe time penalties. I mean it's ridiculous in my opinion that you can have a severe impact of a wall or another car and only be slowed down by a little bit for only 5 or so seconds. Come on! In a real race, even a slight rub up against the walls of Daytona is almost a guaranteed DNF.

True

If the penalties were at least 30 seconds I think that would make many of the reckless drivers think twice... although let us not forget, many people aren't hardcore sim drivers... they just enjoy having fun, and their idea of fun may very well be quite different then our own. This is why the biggest thing PD can do to improve the online experience is to give us optional private races, as well as allow the host to select the race parameters. 👍👍

In total agreement with this


Finally, calling PD lazy bums is probably not a good motivator, nor does it even sound remotely accurate. While I wouldn't know for certain, but from interviews, video tours of PD's offices, the enormous workload games like this require... I seriously doubt PD are lazy bums.

If you are not sure what a lazy bum is, you may want to first look at games like NASCAR 08 and Madden 08 for a far better example. Just a thought mind you.

Very good post with some excellent ideas.

 

[Joe43302]

I just want to let you guys know, don't put all your eggs in the "Damage" basket. As a matter of fact, I'd wager there will be quite a few additional threads to the contrary when it happens.

When damage happens, it doesn't happen to one person. Plain and simple. It won't make better drivers either. Now instead of you being screwed until you're back on the track, you're screwed for the race. I'm not trying to down anyone here, but I wish you people knew people will still rear-end you, sideswipe you, and all that other nonsense. If anything, adding damage is just going to put you down more when in the first lap a little scrape screws your aerodynamics and your shot at catching that player you've had sights on has quickly diminished.

I'm sorry you guys, but damage isn't going to change anything. The only solution is fix the penalty system.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I just want to let you guys know, don't put all your eggs in the "Damage" basket. As a matter of fact, I'd wager there will be quite a few additional threads to the contrary when it happens.

When damage happens, it doesn't happen to one person. Plain and simple. It won't make better drivers either. Now instead of you being screwed until you're back on the track, you're screwed for the race. I'm not trying to down anyone here, but I wish you people knew people will still rear-end you, sideswipe you, and all that other nonsense. If anything, adding damage is just going to put you down more when in the first lap a little scrape screws your aerodynamics and your shot at catching that player you've had sights on has quickly diminished.

I'm sorry you guys, but damage isn't going to change anything. The only solution is fix the penalty system.

I agree to a large extent and have said so before, but I also strongly feel damage would be great as an OPTION. This is how F1CE does it online, and it works great! For players that want that realistic risk of having damage they can create or join the races where the host player has turned it on. For those that don't they can create or join races where the host player has turned it off. The same goes for offline racing against the AI, the player is given the option of several different race settings including adjustable penalties, crash damage and even equipment failures! Everyone wins!

In addition, like F1CE, GT5P & GT5 absolutely need the ability to create private races. I will say though, if anyone is in terested in seeing how good and bad a race can be with damage, defintely go out and rent F1CE... it's a brilliant racing sim game! In fact, wait till you have to make your first pit stop... you'll likely freak out and wish PD adds a similar feature to their pit stops. 👍

 

[SavageEvil]

Damage will be a double edged sword, we can't have ghosting as contact is a part of racing. I say that there be a ranking system, that should rank racers according to how well they drive, since this game has soo many calculations, i say that they utilize them. The physics system can calculate what maximum speed your car can sustain going through a given corner, so for courses with multiple corners the points for how you drive through corners can be allotted, as well as how often you stick to your driving line, everyone has a line they take. Usually when you make a turn, you steer and countersteer constantly so it will be noticeable when someone is trying to pass you and you snap over to try to block. Based on the opponents position relative to your cars', it can be evaluated whether or not you were deliberately attempting to take them out, or defending your position. It doesn't even have to be instantaneous, there can be a signal that lets you know that the incident is being evaluated. Depending on the outcome you can get no penalty against you, penalties that can be levied against you, even if you leave the race. They should also have incident video incase you think that you may be in the right. This will make league racing awesome, as the league can view the race and evaluate who was right and who was wrong. Depending on the infraction, the severity of the infraction, you can just be given all sorts of penalties, pit pass through penalties, timed pit stays, flags(3 in a race = DQ), and more severe like stripping you of your finishing position and winnings, automatic loss added to your records, blacklisted (timed, number of races). I say that if someone is always being a nuisance, that they get permanently blacklisted and they will have to clear this up by taking the defensive driving course, and or restarting their game from scratch. that would seriously put a damper on online idiot drivers and keep the competition at a higher level. the reason i added the league thing, was because sometimes a driver can genuinely push their car and not purposely attempt to take out a competitor. the league can review it and wave it off. sounds absolutely complicated. lol

 

[Biggles]

I agree to a large extent and have said so before, but I also strongly feel damage would be great as an OPTION. This is how F1CE does it online, and it works great! For players that want that realistic risk of having damage they can create or join the races where the host player has turned it on. For those that don't they can create or join races where the host player has turned it off. The same goes for offline racing against the AI, the player is given the option of several different race settings including adjustable penalties, crash damage and even equipment failures! Everyone wins!

In addition, like F1CE, GT5P & GT5 absolutely need the ability to create private races. I will say though, if anyone is in terested in seeing how good and bad a race can be with damage, defintely go out and rent F1CE... it's a brilliant racing sim game! In fact, wait till you have to make your first pit stop... you'll likely freak out and wish PD adds a similar feature to their pit stops.

Agreed.

Damage is part of the Trinity:

AI, Collision Physics & Damage

all very important areas where the GT series has been weak. I think they're particularly relevant in the single-player game, as they add unpredictability & interest to the racing. Damage is perhaps more problematic in online play, where people may abuse it - that is where "private races" become important, allowing you to race with only like-minded people.

Digital: one thing I have come to realize from switching back & forth between F1:CE & GT5P, is that a lot of the fun, excitement & challenge of F1:CE come from the sheer speed of the racing. Picture racing a bunch of Cappuccinos around in F1:CE - wouldn't be quite the same...

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Digital: one thing I have come to realize from switching back & forth between F1:CE & GT5P, is that a lot of the fun, excitement & challenge of F1:CE come from the sheer speed of the racing. Picture racing a bunch of Cappuccinos around in F1:CE - wouldn't be quite the same...

So true. Like you, I like the thrill and excitement knowing that if brake too late, or cut a corner my race could very well end right there... none of this 5 second slow down period nonsense.

The reward of winning a race and or posting a fast lap in conditions like that are soooo much greater than in GT5P... at least in it's current form... but I still love GT5P.

 

[JackB]

Why not just eliminate the bumping? That is what is causing the main issue for everyone, isn't it? Basically if you have to cars side by side and one car decided the bump the other, the one getting bumped doesn't move. In other words, the other racers have no bearing on moving your car. They can bump into you, causing there car to bump and spin out, leaving you unharmed.

Is it unrealistic? Yes. But it would reward those who chose to race for real and it would truly be competitive, the way I want it to be, and I'm sure all us want it to be. And at the same time, the players that are doing the bumping, would feel like idiots when they keep banging into brick walls and they are the ones spinning out.


I mean am I talking gibberish here or is this a good idea?

Have you ever tried ghost mode racing on Forza 2? I think you'd like it. I don't (I prefer the limited or simulation damage modes), but it accomplishes what you're asking for without the goofy physics.

 

[wrcsti]

You guys don't get it with damage. Now instead of just bumping you to pass you, they will slam you to damage you and "see how good the damage is".