If GT4 was ultra real, most wouldn' like it

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I'm all for realism, to a degree. Live For Speed is about as realistic as I'd probably like to go in a game. Gran Turismo is successful because it blends an element of realism into a pick up & play driving game. I own a Driving Force wheel, but to be honest I can't be bothered rigging it all up every time I want to play GT, its far easier just to grab a pad, turn on the PS2 & drive.
 
ok, so lets do some recap, here's what i gather from the "pro arcade" camp thus far:

- GT4 Should be arcade only, and for no reason should it have an arcade mode and a sim mode, because then they'd be left only with the crappy arcade mode (wtf? first they defend arcade mode over sim, now they call it crappy?)

-GT4 should just appeal to the avarage gamer, and not the hardcore racer, or people that want to have a racing experience in a tight budget, i mean, why the hell should a racing fan want to play a game right?

-GT4 will never, ever go hardcore. (even though PD suggest otherwise, and additions like a 2 1/2 turn wheel seem to contradict that)

-GT4 would be boring if it had a sim mode (find it boring? no one is putting a gun to your head to play it you know.. there are other games out there, that don't _try_ to be a simulator)

Ok, so here are the facts now:

-GT4 is named the REAL driving SIMULATOR, why on earth would sim fans b1tch about it not being as real as it could be (yes, on current hardware). oh my god, how selfish of them to ask for a REAL driving SIMULATOR to be more REAL!

-GT4 is really trying to be HARDCORE like it or not, will it deliver? only time will tell, hopefully, not too much time.

-GT4 would be appealing to an even wider range of users if the game was more real, and like many have suggested here, you can always play your "arcade" mode by turning on all kinds of aids.

the "pro arcade" camp claims that GT3 offers accurate braking and acceleration simulation, and yet they say they like the fact taht GT3 lets them brake whenever they want even if they missed the braking point. (???)

here's a quick fact for you, if evrything becomes more real, it becomes more challenging, and to many racing fans more challenging just means a lot more fun, mastering the tracks becomes harder and much more rewarding if the car handles like it should, if GT4 really did go hardcore, those with steering wheels will agree.
i could go on and on about how much more fun a sim can be than an arcade racer, but instead all just say this:

the bottomline is, GT fans b1tch about GT not being real enough because.. ITS A SIMULATOR, NOT an arcade game!
for those of you that say sims aren't for evryone, i'd have to say i agree, some people don't like to invest time on learning how to handle a car at high speeds, for you let me suggest NFSU, outrun, etc. (or.. Gt1, GT2, GT3, and maybe GT4 with a pad)
so in the end here's who's being selfish, you, you don't want for GT4 to live up to it's sim tag, hell, hard core sim guys don't even care if it has all kinds of driving aids as long as they can turn them off, so what your problem is, i just don't get, and in fact i don't really care to. I realized that no matter how many times i explain why realisim is important in a simulator you just won't get it and you'll just mouth off about how most people preffer arcade games (good for them, go play arcade games, this again, in PD's words should be a sim)

so, i guess either PD starts calling it's games the real arcade game instead of the real driving simulator or as the series goes on you'll be out of luck and will have to look elsewere for your fix, so for the last time, how is asking for a simulation mode, on a game that calls itself a simulation is too much to ask?
if this was outrun or NFS you wouln't hear a peep from the sim camp, but this isn't supposed to be an arcade game in the first place, the reasons why PD have made the game so forgiving are quite a few, including the fact that they would sell more copies if it was dumbed down, but that's misleading by them, because if they're gonna do that, they gotta rethink their name, thankfully, it seems they really want it to be a sim.
then there's the fact that GT3 has gameplay influences by a very old ps1 game and was not made from the ground up, at first i thought Gt4 was just an updated engine (GT4p would suggest that, as it's very alike even if GT4P had improvements). thanfully this time around it seems they had the time get a brand new physics engine, so that's also looking good.
And then there's the reason that because they want to include so many cars on evry game they prioritze their work efforts on quantity rather than improving physics (again, this may for the first time not be the case even with 500+ cars).

and while i think photo mode is a nifty new feature, i would have much rather have liked them spending that time on improving the physics than getting photo mode, but hey, jury is still out on the GT4 final gameplay, so i'll give them the benefit of doubt.

In the end i think most of the "pro arcade" posts are just trying to justify previous GT series flaws because since that's the game they own it's gotta be perfect, and in their eyes it is, too bad other people don't have a hard time noticing this little thing called truth.
And when someone attacks their perfect game they go ballistic.
when it comes to me, i don't dislike the game at all (i can't speak for other sim fans though). in fact i like it a lot, but since the game claims to be a simulator, well, i naturally have expectations, some of wich aren't met at all, GT might not be a true sim yet, but at least it seems they're trying.
i can't wait to see just how close they take it to being a sim this time, hell, they might even surprise us and deliver a true sim for the first time.
 
how about we hold any judgements until someone plays on the final physics engine. i didnt read this whole thread but it is quite a dumb comment and if this has been discussed many times before, how come no one has ever mentioned this. all u need is one physics engine to model car's reactions. if PD was to take into account, chassis material properties, suspension properties, weight balances, tire coefficient of friction, etc...then u could in fact have a perfect sim that worked for any car as long as u tested it enough to get all of these specs. there's only one physics model in real life. so if it was possible for someone to code an almost real life physics engine, then u would only need one. is this not understandable? two sprinters dont have different physics engines just cuz they run at different speeds. theyre both on earth. they just have different mechanics which could be modeled if someone really wanted to.
 
well..... PC sim physics ARE (slightly) better than GT games..

BUT was is the main reason for "PC" sims being better than THE PS2 GT3?!

simply because (we thought)PS2 could not handle complex physics as much as the pc sim games ...
but we might be proved wrong....because this is when KY shows what PS2 is capable of doing...

One of the main reasons GT fans are looking forward to for the GT4 is the "UPGRADED PHYSICS" which in other words means....more realistic physics

if we mess up while drivin.....it clearly shows you are not obeying the law of physics...:)
and IF we mess up?? ...we have to give it another try until we have a proper lap..

hey....thats what we GT fans do ;)
 
SaintKamus, you've just become the best new memeber on this site in m opinion, thats a very well thought out post and I ageree 100%, like you said and I did before, whats the problem with having a proper sim and giving people the choice of switching aids on to make it easier to handle. Any fair minded individual would agree that there isn't one.
 
SaintKamus..would you consider yourself a hardcore gamer? Nice essay there though. However, remember the GT series has to appeal to Casual Gamers too, and photo mode could shed some new light on the series a new perspective in a way.
 
Thats where the whole appeal to everyone with the driving aids comes in.
 
ok, maybe i shouldnt have said "tougher" ai and physics, but from the latest nurnburgring vid it does seem like the AI behaves more realistic (making mistakes), if indeed it is AI driving. It also looks like the physics are better from the way the car behaves on the bumps in the road etc.

Anyway, judging from this thread, i'd say its definitely more then 5% of GT fans that want more realism.
 
SaintKamus
looks like i hit a nerve, you even went as far as to call me a no life individual that's just good at "sims", wow, you got me figured out, by the way, you probably don't see any of them posting in the DB because they're busy playing sims instead, hopefully GT4 will be sim enough so you get those guys posting their times there.
i read this as we are not worthy enough to get to know your times.
the change from sim to arcady GT series must be that hard that you can´t be competitive on our system.
and since the rest of your valuable, non.sim time is already dedicated to your relationships the few minutes for just one or two benchmark times at your choice are not possible.
go figure.
SaintKamus
look, we are not your enemies or something, like i said a lot of times in this thread, you still have your game, adding a sim mode wouln't make an arcadish mode go away. what is your problem here?
go back and play GT 2 or GT 3 on sim tires.
ever tried it?
why not?
still to arcady?
give it a shot, it might open some eyes.
SaintKamus
we "sim guys" are also very aware we're "playing a game here, and not simulating real life".
didn´t see that before in your posts but wil keep it in mind from now on.
SaintKamus
and why is it that people that are against sims seem to think it takes a "powerful and expensive PC" to play a sim? GPL is a sim, and it ran fine un a p2 300 mhz when it came out, so there goes you're theory down the toilet O_o.
then i will stay on the graphic level of the GT, no thank you!

SaintKamus
look, you arcade only fans can say all you want, but there's just no solid reasoning behind "PD shouln't include a sim mode!" period.
no offense sim-boy, but i´d prefer GT-nut way over arcade-only fans.


the way of being a bit harsh in my initial post:
easy, think of an GT-fan entering one of the sim-forums claiming to easen the game so more player can enjoy the game.
you might get the picture.
 
Mr. SaintKamus:
- GT4 Should be arcade only, and for no reason should it have an arcade mode and a sim mode, because then they'd be left only with the crappy arcade mode (wtf? first they defend arcade mode over sim, now they call it crappy?)

How you can take what I said and twist it into this is beyond me. I said it should not change sim mode into a UBER sim mode. Have you played GT at all? The way you talk I'm starting to doubt if you ever had. What is arcade mode? Just a place to get a quick race in and gain extra cars and tracks for 2-player mode. Thats all it is and all it has ever been. Why make that mode the only mode casual gamers can drive? I know alot of casual car guys who enjoy tuning the cars in sim mode, running tests, racing for bonus cars and money. Why make sim mode not accessible to them?
-GT4 should just appeal to the avarage gamer, and not the hardcore racer, or people that want to have a racing experience in a tight budget, i mean, why the hell should a racing fan want to play a game right?

GT has handled like GT3 since the beginnig. You are suggesting it to go Hardcore, something the first 3 installments have not done. I dont mind this, as long as there are exceptions. I will point these out at the end of this post
GT4 will never, ever go hardcore. (even though PD suggest otherwise, and additions like a 2 1/2 turn wheel seem to contradict that)
When I say hardcore I mean SUPER hardcore, as in making all the cars handle TOTALLY differet as they do in real life.
-GT4 would be boring if it had a sim mode (find it boring? no one is putting a gun to your head to play it you know.. there are other games out there, that don't _try_ to be a simulator)
Again, Mr. SaintKamus, have you ever played a GT game? This post seems to say no. I love GT sim mode. In fact, I only played arcae mode to get 100% in the game.

Look, I dont mind GT making the cars tougher to drive. I dont mind them making the wheel spin easer etc. But they need to be sure to aid driving aids that will allow the massive fan base that consists of people who want to drive their everyday car in the game the ability to drive with a DS2, because I'm quite sure they wont drop 150$ on a DFP.

So make the cars handle and drive as tough as you want, just make sure assists or something can be added to make the cars accessible to the non ubers sim people
 
Flinx
go back and play GT 2 or GT 3 on sim tires.
ever tried it?
why not?
still to arcady?
give it a shot, it might open some eyes.

:||| ...

Flinx
the way of being a bit harsh in my initial post:
easy, think of an GT-fan entering one of the sim-forums claiming to easen the game so more player can enjoy the game.
you might get the picture.

No sim games are claming to be the 'arcade game' instead of 'real driving simulator. We simracers want GT to live up to it's title while the arcade players can still enjoy the game.
 
That's what OPM UK kind of said, gt3 really wasn't a change from other gt's but graphics. GT4 will evolve the GT series to a harder, meaner GT series. I suggest people who haven't read the latest OPM in my thread, to read it now. And I believe I remember hearing Kaz say gt4 wouldn't be GT, does anyone remember that? I believe I didn't say it exactly like Kaz said but he did say something like that, gt4 not being GT. Maybe physics wise? Gt4 has evolved.
 
Look, what SaintKamus has said about sim play in GT4 is spot on, GT claims to be a Sim and me along with many others have waited long and hard for the sereies to get there, now GT4 looks like it has. But also GT4 will have driving aids, to what extent we don't know but theyre there to help players who are a: crap at it, or b: don't want to experience as full on a sim as GT4 will offer and will make the cars easier to control. And to the guy who said play GT3 with sim tyres, they arn't that great, and what exact tyre compound and tread are they because they arn't what race cars would use and the racing slicks offer far too much grip coupled with the games super brakes make the cars far, far too easy to control.
 
Earth
How you can take what I said and twist it into this is beyond me. I said it should not change sim mode into a UBER sim mode. Have you played GT at all? The way you talk I'm starting to doubt if you ever had. What is arcade mode? Just a place to get a quick race in and gain extra cars and tracks for 2-player mode. Thats all it is and all it has ever been. Why make that mode the only mode casual gamers can drive? I know alot of casual car guys who enjoy tuning the cars in sim mode, running tests, racing for bonus cars and money. Why make sim mode not accessible to them?


GT has handled like GT3 since the beginnig. You are suggesting it to go Hardcore, something the first 3 installments have not done. I dont mind this, as long as there are exceptions. I will point these out at the end of this post

Again, Mr. SaintKamus, have you ever played a GT game? This post seems to say no. I love GT sim mode. In fact, I only played arcae mode to get 100% in the game.

Just to clear things up. I think with Arcade mode, SaintKamus meant the arcade handling you get in the GT Mode. :)

Earth
When I say hardcore I mean SUPER hardcore, as in making all the cars handle TOTALLY differet as they do in real life.
:o I think the simracers mean SUPER hardcore carhandling too. :)

Earth
Look, I dont mind GT making the cars tougher to drive. I dont mind them making the wheel spin easer etc. But they need to be sure to aid driving aids that will allow the massive fan base that consists of people who want to drive their everyday car in the game the ability to drive with a DS2, because I'm quite sure they wont drop 150$ on a DFP.

So make the cars handle and drive as tough as you want, just make sure assists or something can be added to make the cars accessible to the non ubers sim people

omfg, that's what we were saying since the beginning. So there is no problem and you didn't have to make this thread.
 
I dont see the prob here. If you dont want the toughness, just turn the aid on, simple as that. So it's something for everyone, hardcore sim racers and new comers.
 
pfft
isnt the sim mode you speak of called "gran turismo" mode?
they could easily add a third mode " realistic sim" mode if thats what bothers you.
Its obvious that when people speak of having an arcade more and a sim mode they mean an arcadey and a sim version of the gran turismo mode, carreer mode, whatever you want to call it.

Its understandable that you dont want to be forced to buy a dfp, but what about those of us who actually have shelled out 150€ for the dfp, shouldnt we get a game that gets the best out of our wheel?
I'm sure online hosts could set their servers to dfp/ds2 only, and im sure sony could have normal and simmode rankings
 
Hajaz
Its understandable that you dont want to be forced to buy a dfp, but what about those of us who actually have shelled out 150€ for the dfp, shouldnt we get a game that gets the best out of our wheel?
I'm sure online hosts could set their servers to dfp/ds2 only, and im sure sony could have normal and simmode rankings

I posted earlier that I am quite pleased to see the DFP gives you an advantage over users with DS2. Before the only reason for me getting a wheel for GT was to save my fingers and have more fun.

No I get to save my fingers, have more fun, and can actually drive faster :)
 
Like most people here I'm not against increased realism, in fact we thrive on the challenge. What I disagree with is the insinuation that people who aren't hardcore sim fans are somehow inferior!

To return to Earths point about the game not being an Uber Simulator is valid, if you made the 500+ horsepower cars as realistic to drive as they are in real life then it would eliminate all the pad users from enjoying the game. I wouldn't even try to drive my underpowered tank of a car in R/L with a DS2 let alone a Xanavi Nismo.

I'm lucky enough to own the DFPro, and whilst you may say to the pad users switch on the assists, TCS would not be enough to correct all mistakes with a twitchy pad.

btw Live4Speed the guy who said about sim tyres in GT3 just happens to be a driving God :)
 
They are in no way inferior whioch is why there should be variouse driving aids to alter the feel of the car to suit everyone. If you have a pad and have no way to control such poweful cars then switch a driving aid or two on to make them controlable yet still challenging if you wish ect.

As for the sim tyres I don;t car if he's a driving god or not, there are loads of different types of tyres to use in real life for sports and racng use, ion GT3 theres The Sim tyre, you have one choice of a sports sim tyre, what are we meant to use for the race cars exactley, since the slicks arn't realistic? Just increase the number of driving aids, hell you could have one to give the tyres extra grip, that shouldn't be too hard to implement, but the sim tyres in GT3 do not in any way substitute the fact that the game is not a sim.
 
Tacet_Blue
What I disagree with is the insinuation that people who aren't hardcore sim fans are somehow inferior!
Who said that? :o

To return to Earths point about the game not being an Uber Simulator is valid, if you made the 500+ horsepower cars as realistic to drive as they are in real life then it would eliminate all the pad users from enjoying the game. I wouldn't even try to drive my underpowered tank of a car in R/L with a DS2 let alone a Xanavi Nismo.

I'm lucky enough to own the DFPro, and whilst you may say to the pad users switch on the assists, TCS would not be enough to correct all mistakes with a twitchy pad.
No real life TCS would be enough. But this isn't real life.. PD can make al sorts of assists to make driving with a pad easier. :)
GT already straightens the wheels for you.

Tacet_Blue
btw Live4Speed the guy who said about sim tyres in GT3 just happens to be a driving God :)

So?
 
Pak
Who said that? :o

SaintKamus
so please, people, stop bringing up how much you suck at a simulator as an excuse, it isn't.
once you learn to master a car and track in a simulator you'd never be satisfied with arcade handling, does that answer your question?
if you don't enjoy sims there could ALWAYS be an "N00b Arcade mode" included
welcome to the world of "some people like challenges"
To quote a few :)

Pak

Well he might know a thing or two about driving games :)
 
He should also know that creating a more realistic feel tyre does not compensate for the game not being a true sim, and using them on all cars isn't realistic since different cars need to use different tyre compounds such as slicks ect. Also the whole physics engione in GT3 was old and not that great, it was the orginal engine tweaked a little and if it was so good, why has PD felt it needed to be ripped out and replaced with an ALL NEW one.
 
Has anyone mention Famines patented GT suit which when you crask it decides whether to kill you or just throw battery acid over you?
 
askia47
SaintKamus..would you consider yourself a hardcore gamer? Nice essay there though. However, remember the GT series has to appeal to Casual Gamers too, and photo mode could shed some new light on the series a new perspective in a way.


well, i don't know if i would fit the "hardcore" tag. but i can't say i don't play games a lot.
but latley i haven't been playing racing games seriously (got addicted to warcraft 3 and then war3 TFT wich i played for a long time... just quit like 2 months ago, and i don't even know if i'll comeback to it, played war2 and SC/BW for YEARS i'd say pretty hardcore.)

i used to like arcade games over sims as a kid (sims weren't good enough then, and well, i was a kid.. didn't know how to drive)
but that was a LONG time ago, i perfectly understand that the GT series has to appeal to casual gamers, but it shouln't be at the cost of the simulation's barebones.
here's how i think sims should handle arcade mode (oddly enough, i think first person shooters should be the same).
i think that _BEFORE_ making the game they have to get the physics right, as much as they can, and THEN they can start dumbing it down for casual gamers adding aids, but NOT the other way around (making an arcady game, then trying to somehow turn it into a sim).
get your physics right, then add the fantasy element, heck, if they do that even the arcade mode would be more fun than an arcade from the ground up.

if the game is developed from the ground up with accurate physics they have a sim right from the start and then all they have to do is how to keep the drivers from screwing up so much for the arcade mode.

i think that that's the main reason why the GT series haven't been real enough, GT1 was developed with a control pad in mind, no wheel at all, and well, a VERY underpowered system, GT2 was redone, but again, for an underpowered system, no wheel. GT3 had lots of it's predecesors technology so PD wouln't have to develop a brand new engine from the start, but they made significant improvements, GT4P was about the same, significant improvements over GT3 here and there, but still felt a lot like a previous GT game.
so *if* the new engine is all people who have played it say it is, we just might have a winner, even if it doesn't surpass other sims in all areas, just because of the wide selection of vehicles and tracks, and just as important to me as those features is:
online play, i really don't care much about photo mode if they don't get online play right, there are a few ways they can do it, hopefully some of my suggestions have allready made it to the game:

- an option for true head to head racing, available for those with pings below 50 MS, anything more would probably be chaos (well, they could have this mode available for people with lag, but with a huge warning about how it would affect the game) the warning and all those things would be so it wouln't ruin the "GT experience" wich GT's director voiced so many concerns about (you know, he said he wouln't even add online if it didn't played like he wanted, because it would ruin the experience.

- then there's the option that would allow for 100% lag free races, the "ghost" race, F355 challenge for the DC had it and it was a blast, but PD can take it one step fruther, instead of just running by yourself like in F355 challenge and then wait for the replay with all players in them, they could add a "live ghost" feature so that when you're racing you can see the players at the same time (just not be able to crash with them at all) and not just in the replay, to keep the "ghost" kind of up do date regardless of ping they could add various checkpoints around the track, and at each check point the ghost gets updated so the ghost doesn't suffer that bad from lag and y ou can watch a consistent race, and then when the replay comes all the race data gets uploaded from each player to each player's PS2 and voila, you have a completley lag free race in the replay.
while this option isn't as good as the first, it's the more realistic one on the real world because of latency issues, and if they add the "realtime ghosts".

just so there isn't any confusion about what the "various checkpoints" around the track are for, they would be to keep the "stream" of the race up do date (yes, it would be a stream instead of sending info back and forth for each car) so you have a stream of about 20 seconds at each checkpoint, the end result would probably look pretty good.

with that last mode YM's concerns about affecting the "GT feel" of the game would be put to rest. and the first mode (full blown racing mode) would probably only be played by people around the same area with very little latency (anywhere from 10 to 50 MS).
now, at first it may not seem that the second mode is much fun (for one thing you wouln't have to worry about hitting your oponent if you don't slam the brakes in time) but it actually WOULD be fun because the sight of someone overtaking you would make you want to push the car harder, and even make you do a mistake while you're at it.

sadly, very little is known about GT4 online mode, and that has me concerned, (specially after viewing a YM (am i getting YM right? whats his name again?) interview where he said online racing wasn't really the focus of GT4, but more like "online chatting" (!!). )

you'd think that at this point they would've announced how GT4 online will be like.
lets hope it's not one of the weak areas of the game.
 
Earth
GT has handled like GT3 since the beginnig.
[/i]

GT1 and GT2 dint have the same physics as GT3

GT3 has a higher resolution handling than previous GT... GT1/2 is still the most realistic sim for the playstation platform....

but GT3 lets you be a little bit more free with the cars while driving....as compared to GT1/2..
e.g - your a little restricted to drifting in GT1/2 due to the physics engine...
where as in GT3 you can prolong the drifts you make ... GT3 handles differently compared to the previous GT series
 
That's true. The physics were just tweaked. GT4 is a whole different story. I'm glad the gt series is going for the hardcore driving. That's damn good if you ask me.
 
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