If GT4 was ultra real, most wouldn' like it

[Dave A]

GT3 used the same physics engine as GT1 and 2, all PD did was tweak it and also you got an improved response from the higher framerate, but the physics engine was only a tweake version of the original one. GT3 was rushed and PD didn't have time to creat a new engine for it.

 

[Vette_Drift]

I'm just glad GT4 Physics is goin to be different from prolouge...
wasnt to happy with prolouge...its like your not allowed to freak out or somthing

 

[Sven]

Ok, I haven't read this whole thread, but I'd like to chime in with some comments.

First of all, I'm excited about GT4 going all hardcore sim style, and the more realistic the better. I would be all over things like GTR and LFS by now, but I unfortunately don't have the resources to build and maintain a $3000 gaming PC that can do those well. It's just so much more convenient and inexpensive to use a $300 (now $150) console and a $150 wheel attached to a TV. I love the fact that I'm finally getting a decent true simulation for a console. So don't tell me, "if you want a sim, go play LFS."

Secondly, getting acquainted with a complete simulation (that is, without a $50,000 setup) probably wouldn't be as difficult as some people make it out to be. The reason it's so difficult in real life is because of the expense associated with it. People are timid when learning to race in real life, because they don't want to wreck their $40,000 car. They also have to cope with so much more when doing real driving, like g-forces and high temperatures and whatnot. However, in videogames, they can just sit down at their rig and jump into a race with no cost. They don't have to worry about wrecking, they don't have to cope with g's and temperature, so they can push things to the limit with no worries and no distractions...Not to mention that when they wreck, they just get back on track and try again, unlike in real life where you'd have to save up some more money and buy a new car and not be able to practice for extended periods of time.

Case in point, I have driven two cars in my life: a Toyota Sienna and a Toyota Celica. Recently I was at Universal Orlando, and I was able to try out an F355 Challenge simulator. So I got in, picked "sim" mode, and went to practice at Monza. Sure the first few laps were absolutely horrible, as I wasn't used to the track, or the car, or the physics. But soon enough, I found appropriate braking points, and I had gotten used to the physics, and I was getting some clean laps, even pumping the brakes to prevent locking, only about 10 minutes after sitting down. After my time limit ran out, I put in some more tokens and fired up practice at Suzuka. My first lap there was better than my first at Monza, and after a couple laps I was going clean. It sure wasn't perfect, but if I had an hour or two to just sit and practice (with a more comfortable seat...) I could have gotten some pretty good times.

In short, learning to play simulation videogames isn't as hard as some people are saying, and it's definately a welcome addition to my console game library.

 

[cobragt]

Physics wise, gt4 is a brand new spanking game and it's hardcore and knowing PD, it will be very true to life in physics. Gt4 will make the first new step for the gt series

 

[T100]

This all really doesn't matter, no matter how much you all want the game to be the most ultra realistic driving simulator it just will never happen. The Grand Turismo name is PDs most vaulable assest, it sells a unheard of amount of product around the world. They aren't going to mess with the equation. They ahve a great game that people love and a game that has both a extreme fanbase and "weekend" fans (who only beat about 60 to 80% of the game) that are just car guys or just racing guys or just people looking for a fun game. You all seem to like the game and I have really not met anyone who doesn't. It is for that reason that they aren't going to mess with it. You best hopes lie in the possiblity that they will make a new game with just that "realistic" driving that you want.

 

[JAGUAR]

Haven't we already had numerous threads created by the 'sim' elite slagging of the GT series, and judging GT4 based on previous GT games.

Even judging GT4 on the much improved GT4P is a big mistake. The current build of GT4 is over a year down the line from GT4P, and much improved in many areas.

I can only judge how realistic GT4P (with the DFP wheel of course) is compared to my real life driving experiences.

Over the weekend I drove a 250BHP+ RWD Ford Escort Cosworth rally car and my GT4P experience was of great help. I had never driven a RWD car previously yet within 2 laps of the tarmac stage I was able to slide and drift the car comfortably using the same techniques as in GT4P.

I have read a lot of posts by 'sim' experts informing everyone that will listen how unrealistic the braking, tire grip etc. is in GT4P. Well, when I was driveing the rally car my instructor simply told me to floor the accelerator at every opportuninty and brake as hard, and late as possible. After a slight loss of traction, the tires soon gripped hard, despite full throttle on slippery tarmac, and I never once locked the brakes.

After my drive in the car the instructor took me on a few hot laps. He was extremely aggressive on the accellerator and especially so with the braking. The brakes never once locked and the car never suffered from a loss of traction that the 'experts' claim you should have!

To conclude I found GT4P to be pretty darn close to real life rally driving. GT4 should be even more realistic.

 

[Pak]

JAGUAR, who is judging GT4?

 

[T100]

That really sounds like fun...I have done some racing at the miami speedway when they have courses set up and it can be very fun.

 

[JAGUAR]

JAGUAR, who is judging GT4?

I'm just talking generally.

Some people seem to judge GT4 on previous GT games. Quite frankly who gives a damn about the old GT games. They evolve with each incarnantion. When GT4 comes out, GT4P will be straight in the bin.

Luckily GT4 will be the first 'true' sequal in the GT series.

GT2 was a bigger version of GT1, while GT3 was a prettier version off GT2, with a few slight tweaks.

 

[londor]

The only way to go for the GT series is to become a "real driving simulator". The more real the more respect the game will have among the millions of people who enjoy racing cars. Going harder will may stop some people from buying the game but it will bring many others into it.

If you like cars and many, many people do then you will not be put off by the difficulty of the game. The game does not have to have multiple driving aids for the novice drivers what you need is different levels to match your driving skills. So if you are a novice driver you would start the game at the novice level meaning that the AI cars drive quite slowly. Once you can control the car at reduce speeds you could increase the difficulty level so every time you would be forced to push the car harder and harder becoming more challenging but at the same time more rewarding. Also you should be able to finish the game at any difficulty level so if you are not up to the task of becoming an expert driver you do not miss a thing but in the process you would have learnt some driving skills.

GT is not or should not be an arcade game. If you are looking for one better look somewhere else.

 

[JohnBM01]

You have quite a few spelling errors in your introduction, Earth. Take things easy around here, my friend.

If GT4 was ultra-realistic, I don't think the pick-up-and-play element wouldn't translate. Imagine the children playing the Gran Turismo series and messing around with car handling as if they were Tom Kristensen or Michael Schumacher. I think the handling is enough to be an arcade-style racer while being dead serious about realism. If GT turned into something like Pro Race Driver, Gran Turismo will never be the same again. I guess my issue is that with a whole lot of cars, how can you compare one car in class compared to others? How is the handling of a Dodge Challenger different from a Plymouth Barracuda? A Toyota Supra from a Mazda RX-7? I don't think that it would mean a lot because no matter what happens, a car will always have its strengths and its shortcomings. Ultra-realism will mean that Simulation Tires would pretty much be useless because the tires aren't done up so that they are arcadish. Cars would excessively spin out, even when not trying. I know this having played "Sports Car GT" and downloading cars for the PC version. Some cars were so slippery that I had to completely stop, get it back stable, then keep racing.

My primary issue concerns how people will have to learn to adjust to the new controls even though the new physics engine will make gameplay different from the past three GTs. So, I'm concerned primarily with what people think of a more realistic GT. So much of one that casual racing fans won't successfully assimilate and adjust to this hyper-realistic GT. I don't work for PD, but if I did, I probably would want to have an ultra-realistic GT as a private experiment at PD Headquarters. Of course, I'd want wonderful people like CobraGT to try to bypass security and get this across to GTPlanet. But he's on his own if security has uzis and chainguns and girls in Hello Kitty costumes. I'm just kidding, folks! Anyhow, I don't think it will work. Gran Turismo will be real enough so that even though it may not be SERIOUSLY close to real life driving/racing, it will be real enough so fans will love and respect the series since 1997 (JPN)/1998 (world).

 

[Pak]

You have quite a few spelling errors in your introduction, Earth. Take things easy around here, my friend.

If GT4 was ultra-realistic, I don't think the pick-up-and-play element wouldn't translate. Imagine the children playing the Gran Turismo series and messing around with car handling as if they were Tom Kristensen or Michael Schumacher. I think the handling is enough to be an arcade-style racer while being dead serious about realism. If GT turned into something like Pro Race Driver, Gran Turismo will never be the same again. I guess my issue is that with a whole lot of cars, how can you compare one car in class compared to others? How is the handling of a Dodge Challenger different from a Plymouth Barracuda? A Toyota Supra from a Mazda RX-7? I don't think that it would mean a lot because no matter what happens, a car will always have its strengths and its shortcomings. Ultra-realism will mean that Simulation Tires would pretty much be useless because the tires aren't done up so that they are arcadish. Cars would excessively spin out, even when not trying. I know this having played "Sports Car GT" and downloading cars for the PC version. Some cars were so slippery that I had to completely stop, get it back stable, then keep racing.

My primary issue concerns how people will have to learn to adjust to the new controls even though the new physics engine will make gameplay different from the past three GTs. So, I'm concerned primarily with what people think of a more realistic GT. So much of one that casual racing fans won't successfully assimilate and adjust to this hyper-realistic GT. I don't work for PD, but if I did, I probably would want to have an ultra-realistic GT as a private experiment at PD Headquarters. Of course, I'd want wonderful people like CobraGT to try to bypass security and get this across to GTPlanet. But he's on his own if security has uzis and chainguns and girls in Hello Kitty costumes. I'm just kidding, folks! Anyhow, I don't think it will work. Gran Turismo will be real enough so that even though it may not be SERIOUSLY close to real life driving/racing, it will be real enough so fans will love and respect the series since 1997 (JPN)/1998 (world).

Why are you even replying with this? We sorted it out already. Nobody will suffer from an ultra realistic GT.

If GT4 was ultra-realistic, I don't think the pick-up-and-play element wouldn't translate.

Why ffs? It's exactly the same as previous GT's but with more realistic handling. If you don't want the cars to spin out, turn the driving assists on.. simple as that.

Ultra-realism will mean that Simulation Tires would pretty much be useless because the tires aren't done up so that they are arcadish.

Uhm.. :| there could be simtires and arcadetires like it is now.. what is the problem?

Edit:

JAGUAR, nobody is judging GT4, they can't, it's not out yet. We do have expectations for GT4 which are also based on previous GT's. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[yeti]

The only way to go for the GT series is to become a "real driving simulator". The more real the more respect the game will have among the millions of people who enjoy racing cars. Going harder will may stop some people from buying the game but it will bring many others into it.

If you like cars and many, many people do then you will not be put off by the difficulty of the game. The game does not have to have multiple driving aids for the novice drivers what you need is different levels to match your driving skills. So if you are a novice driver you would start the game at the novice level meaning that the AI cars drive quite slowly. Once you can control the car at reduce speeds you could increase the difficulty level so every time you would be forced to push the car harder and harder becoming more challenging but at the same time more rewarding. Also you should be able to finish the game at any difficulty level so if you are not up to the task of becoming an expert driver you do not miss a thing but in the process you would have learnt some driving skills.

GT is not or should not be an arcade game. If you are looking for one better look somewhere else.

I'm sorry but am I the only one that reckons that this method of "Learning" sucks!!!

The whole premise of GT is that you start off a novice and you can only compete in the "easy" races with slower cars and as your money and therefore experience increases so does the speed/power of the cars and therefore the difficulty... thus negating any need for different difficulty settings!!

The only true way to deal with differing skills in the GT game is to have assists that are variable in level... like GT3... the ASM and TCS could be increased/decreased as often as you liked... for instance... I left the TCS quite high on my FR cars so that I could get good starts... but in my rally cars I dropper the TCS right down as they have superior grip all the time...

The better you get the more likely you are to have the ASM down as low as possible so that the PS2 isn't helping you drive...

I do think however that the steering correction should be a variable setting too...

I would like the ability to turn it off so that I could have a few races where I can mess about and do donuts and stuff!!

C.

 

[Dave A]

This all really doesn't matter, no matter how much you all want the game to be the most ultra realistic driving simulator it just will never happen. The Grand Turismo name is PDs most vaulable assest, it sells a unheard of amount of product around the world. They aren't going to mess with the equation.

According to recent sources it's changed and gone hardcore, don't you read other posts because it's been said enough times in this thread alone.

They ahve a great game that people love and a game that has both a extreme fanbase and "weekend" fans (who only beat about 60 to 80% of the game) that are just car guys or just racing guys or just people looking for a fun game.

And they would get a bigger fan base if they made it a proper sim but offered driving aids that allowed to cars to be more controlable like in past GT's.

You all seem to like the game and I have really not met anyone who doesn't. It is for that reason that they aren't going to mess with it. You best hopes lie in the possiblity that they will make a new game with just that "realistic" driving that you want.

I know a few people who don't like it, it's mainly the ones who don't like a game that you have to learn or people that just arn't into driving games, but I know quite a few people who think GT isn't a good game or that it's just average. And again for emphasis, according to recent sources GT4 has gone harcore sim, and PD can do that and keep their on hardcore sim fans they have already.

 

[JAGUAR]

A more realistic game does not neccessarily mean a harder game.

Your average family car is incredibly easy to drive, even by a complete idiot, and believe me there are a lot of idiots out there driving cars

Cars only become difficult to control when pushed to there limits. In the GT series there is a natural learning curve as you move upto more powerful and quicker cars. There is no need for difficulty settings.

The only area were there needs to be an 'easy' option for newcomers is in the area of tires. Give newcomers the option of arcade tires when they start the game, rather than sim tires, and you should be fine.

 

[Dave A]

You average family car is not easy to drive fast around a circuit it requres so much more than just thrashing it round a circuit which may feel quick and not too challenging but I assure you it's not fast, to go fast takes skill in anything from a Fiat Punto to a Ford Escort Cosworth. Yes you did say cars become hard to control when they are pushed but not always to their limits, driver error comes into play too, but the bottom line is GT3 was in no way a driving sim, and GT4 is supposed to be.

 

[Lethalchem]

To return to Earths point about the game not being an Uber Simulator is valid, if you made the 500+ horsepower cars as realistic to drive as they are in real life then it would eliminate all the pad users from enjoying the game. I wouldn't even try to drive my underpowered tank of a car in R/L with a DS2 let alone a Xanavi Nismo.

I'm lucky enough to own the DFPro, and whilst you may say to the pad users switch on the assists, TCS would not be enough to correct all mistakes with a twitchy pad.

btw Live4Speed the guy who said about sim tyres in GT3 just happens to be a driving God

Although I understand your point about trying to drive a high HP car with a joystick, I just want to point out that powerful cars need not be as 'uncontrollable' in reality as those who have not experienced them might think. It's possible that many people who have not ever driven a fast car are imagining the vehicle dynamics to be much more drastic and twitchy than they truly are.

My daily driven vehicle has 520Hp and 560lbft of torque, and it is actually dyno proven to make over 400lbs at the wheels at a mere 2000rpm. Based on various posts in this thread, one would think it's a miracle I can make it to work at all, especially on street tires, yet some how I amazingly manage to roll in on time. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the realism of a high horsepower car requires a vehicle that is constantly on the edge of controlability. As said before, I think realism, variation, and enjoyment can all be made to meet somewhere in the middle.

 

[Pak]

Lethalchem, if you just drive like anyone else on the road, nothing will happen. But push the car as hard as you can on a racing circuit is not like that.
What is your point btw? GT3/G4p are no true sims, in reality a Mclaren F1 GTR is harder to control.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

My daily driven vehicle has 520Hp and 560lbft of torque, and it is actually dyno proven to make over 400lbs at the wheels at a mere 2000rpm. Based on various posts in this thread, one would think it's a miracle I can make it to work at all, especially on street tires, yet some how I amazingly manage to roll in on time. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the realism of a high horsepower car requires a vehicle that is constantly on the edge of controlability. As said before, I think realism, variation, and enjoyment can all be made to meet somewhere in the middle.

Sounds like a nice car I agree with what your saying about power doesn't mean impossible to drive. My last bike (I'm on 4 wheels these days) had a ridiculous power to weight ratio 1.41 kg/hp and whilst it may seem like it was a nightmare to ride, I used to manage it every day to work even in the rain! Of course throttle control comes into it, I would never whack the throttle open in a jerky manner, or even open it fully until I was in 2nd or 3rd gear. Thats what I was saying about the DS2, apart from the joystick, it is far too easy to hit the throttle too hard, and also v difficult to maintain a 50% throttle consistantly or be smooth. The DFPro pedals allow you to do that easily, but for all the poor DS2 guys, they would surely get frustrated, spinning out all the time.

Anyway, I've had plenty to say in this thread already, and a big football match is about to start in UK.

 

[Pak]

Sounds like a nice car

Hmmz indeed. =]

Of course throttle control comes into it, I would never whack the throttle open in a jerky manner, or even open it fully until I was in 2nd or 3rd gear. Thats what I was saying about the DS2, apart from the joystick, it is far too easy to hit the throttle too hard, and also v difficult to maintain a 50% throttle consistantly or be smooth. The DFPro pedals allow you to do that easily, but for all the poor DS2 guys, they would surely get frustrated, spinning out all the time.

Tacet do you read my posts? DS2 guys get driving assists to correct steering and throttle control.

Anyway, I've had plenty to say in this thread already, and a big football match is about to start in UK.

Have fun watching

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Tacet do you read my posts? DS2 guys get driving assists to correct steering and throttle control.

Course I read your posts mate I didn't know about the throttle assists...cause thats the one you need on a DS2

That is it though...match has kicked off..come on Ronaldo! He's looking so sharp

c ya

 

[Lethalchem]

Lethalchem, if you just drive like anyone else on the road, nothing will happen. But push the car as hard as you can on a racing circuit is not like that.
What is your point btw? GT3/G4p are no true sims, in reality a Mclaren F1 GTR is harder to control.

I drive my car on autocross courses regularly, as well as drag strips. I have driven it on a road course recently as well, so I know how it drives around town AND at the limits.

My point was that making GT4 cars drive more realistically won't necesitate making the vehicles impossible for the average person to drive. I thought that was fairly clear, my bad.

 

[Hajaz]

part of the problem is the way sony designed the DS2's buttons. they claim theyre analogue buttons, but there really isnt much space between a hard press and a softpress. Xbox and Gamecube shoulderbuttons are actually much better for accelerating and braking. Hopefully Sony will finally make some changes to the DS design next gen.

 

[kinigitt]

It pisses me off reading a thread like this, seeing as how many GT fans will completely rip apart arcade racers because they "lack realism" but still try to cover PD's ass when somebody brings up the fact that it aint a real simulator. These people are the ones ragging on Forza for not having a force feedback wheel, because apparently the only way to experience a Uber realistic sim (not saying Forza is one) is with a force feedback wheel. These are the people who say PGR2 and Ridge racer are crap and whine about the physics.

Gt isnt a sim, its a damn fine racer that finds almost perfect balance between the two extremes.

Stick to one philosophy at least. Goddammit. I need to take some pills now.

 

[cobragt]

All I got to say is, when you go to the wheel you wont go back to the controller. Hell, you might want to play every game with the wheel

 

[cobragt]

It pisses me off reading a thread like this, seeing as how many GT fans will completely rip apart arcade racers because they "lack realism" but still try to cover PD's ass when somebody brings up the fact that it aint a real simulator. These people are the ones ragging on Forza for not having a force feedback wheel, because apparently the only way to experience a Uber realistic sim (not saying Forza is one) is with a force feedback wheel. These are the people who say PGR2 and Ridge racer are crap and whine about the physics.

Gt isnt a sim, its a damn fine racer that finds almost perfect balance between the two extremes.

Stick to one philosophy at least. Goddammit. I need to take some pills now.

Yes, GT isn't a real sim but gt4 will change that. That's for sure.

 

[Dave A]

Anyway, I've had plenty to say in this thread already, and a big football match is about to start in UK.

And the better side won with pretty much a reserve side, I've never seen two of thoes players play before ever (Spector and Eagle) but we won 3 - 0.


Anyway on topic it Lethalchem is very right, making T4 realistic doesn't mean making the cars impossible to keep in a straight line, sure it means they will be harder than in GT3 and GT4P but mere mortals with not real track experience will still be able to drive them fast with a few laps experience especially with driving aids on for thoes who would prfer the handling to be like GT3's.

 

[kinigitt]

cobra, I havent had a chance with the wheel, but as soon as I can buy it, you can be assured I will! That wasnt my point.

"In the end i think most of the "pro arcade" posts are just trying to justify previous GT series flaws because since that's the game they own it's gotta be perfect, and in their eyes it is, too bad other people don't have a hard time noticing this little thing called truth.
And when someone attacks their perfect game they go ballistic."

A person that thinks before he posts? It can't be! Not in the GT4 forums!?!?

At least I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

Another point nobody even considers is the fact that it takes a lot of work to make a good arcade game. Arcade games don't have realistic physics to lean on, they HAVE to be fun, or they fail. A seriously addictive, really fun, balanced and tight arcade racing game (ridge racer on Ps1 was awesome for the time) is quite an accomplishment. People immediately dismiss them as sloppy thrown together and ultimately lazy(which is true for a lot, sadly), but a lot of tuning and tweaking is put into them (the good ones) so they can deliver the most fun factor.

 

[Sven]

part of the problem is the way sony designed the DS2's buttons. they claim theyre analogue buttons, but there really isnt much space between a hard press and a softpress. Xbox and Gamecube shoulderbuttons are actually much better for accelerating and braking. Hopefully Sony will finally make some changes to the DS design next gen.

Ugh, I hate those buttons for doing any sort of digital control, and I hate using shoulder buttons for accelaration control. I'm quite proficient with the DualShock pressure control anyway.

But since I have a wheel, it doesn't matter much either way.

 

[Hajaz]

hate em all you like, the fact is that GC and xbox shoulderbuttons have alot more analogue precision then the DS2's buttons. to me, it just seems like i can either press a ds2 button soft or hard or not, and thats it, theres nothing in between.you can easily press a GC shoulderbutton 1/5th or 2/5ths etc accuratly