Immigration

[KSaiyu]

Pros + cons.
Controlled or uncontrolled.
"Good" systems vs "bad" systems.

Highly contentious issue at the moment (especially so in Europe) so let's try not to send it the way of the documentary

I'll state in the OP that I'm pretty centre-right (in the informal sense before Famine kicks me) in my views so any personal things you can direct by PM.

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Comparison of systems (may come as a surprise to some, but the UK already as a points based system)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29594642

Bank of England head warns that at current levels of migration, there is a "threat to economic recovery":

Migrants ‘threaten economic recovery’

Immigration is posing a threat to Britain’s recovery by holding down wages, the Bank of England has warned.

Mark Carney, the governor, described the current high level of net migration as “a key risk” to the economy if it continues to bear down on pay.

Central to the Bank’s outlook is the assumption that “domestic demand is sustained by the recovery in real incomes” and that “wage growth picks up”.

However, the Bank cut its forecast for earnings growth this year from 3.5 per cent to just 2.5 per cent, blaming the downgrade partly on near-record levels of immigration.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/economics/article4439657.ece

Positive contribution of migrants from EU to UK economy (from 2014)

Positive economic impact of UK immigration from the European Union: new evidence

European immigrants to the UK have paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, helping to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers and contributing to the financing of public services – according to new research by the UCL Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration (CReAM).

European immigrants who arrived in the UK since 2000 have contributed more than £20bn to UK public finances between 2001 and 2011. Moreover, they have endowed the country with productive human capital that would have cost the UK £6.8bn in spending on education.


Over the period from 2001 to 2011, European immigrants from the EU-15 countries contributed 64% more in taxes than they received in benefits. Immigrants from the Central and East European ‘accession’ countries (the ‘A10’) contributed 12% more than they received.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

 

[Dotini]

I say it's more important to follow through on your highest ideals, and the economy be damned. Sacrifice everything, jobs, homes, fortunes and lives, but not your essential values.

 

[Liquid]

Successful immigrant here; three times over.

Graft, pay your way, absorb the local culture where you can. Job done. If you're not doing that, that individual is an ass. Just like domestic asses who do likewise. There's no net in which to catch and demonise whole groups of people. At least, there shouldn't be.

Open borders made it much easier for me to move and have a job to immediately start upon moving. For all the things I dislike about the EU, it has also enabled and helped me in other areas.

What effects do emigrants have on, for example, British recovery?

 

[KSaiyu]

What effects do emigrants have on, for example, British recovery?

I've mentioned in other threads I'm slowly learning the economic side of things so I'll go with what I do know and say emigration of doctors is a big issue at the moment. I've talked before about the loss of A+E staff to Australia, but this article shows a fifth of GP trainees are thinking of working abroad.

Also consider the cost of how much it takes to train a doctor in the UK.

 

[JKgo]

...This isn't just an European issue. Remember South Africa's xenophobic flare ups?

 

[DK]

I've mentioned in other threads I'm slowly learning the economic side of things so I'll go with what I do know and say emigration of doctors is a big issue at the moment. I've talked before about the loss of A+E staff to Australia, but this article shows a fifth of GP trainees are thinking of working abroad.

Also consider the cost of how much it takes to train a doctor in the UK.

It's funny you should mention that, Ireland also has a problem trying to hold onto nurses here...and guess which country they emigrate the most to? That's right, Britain.

 

[KSaiyu]

My thanks go out to Ireland - they are some of the best we have

 

[Scaff]

The fun with reporting.

I was listening to Mark Carney on Radio 4 on the way into work this morning and he said almost exactly the opposite thing?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32733033

 

[KSaiyu]

No, those aren't opposite.

One is productivity the other is economic recovery. He's basically giving the salt and sweet for immigration and pushing for a referendum. Definite politician in the making by giving the bad news first!

 

[Scaff]

No, those aren't opposite.

One is productivity the other is economic recovery. He's basically giving the salt and sweet for immigration and pushing for a referendum. Definite politician in the making by giving the bad news first!

Again not what he said on Radio 4, he was quite specific in stating that the key driver for economic recovery right now is productivity and without a rise in productivity the economic recovery will fail.

I would recommend having a listen on the iPlayer (it was around 8:30ish this morning) because it does seem to be quite at odds with the Times interview.

 

[SalmanBH]

With a population of around 1.2 million as of 2009, about 53% of Bahrain's inhabitants are non-native. To be honest, Bahrain's rapid economic growth over the past 30 to 40 years was mainly based on the importation of cheap foreign labour, mostly from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and the Philippines.

Without them, I really don't know where we would be right now.

 

[KSaiyu]

This is the "Immigration" thread not "Slavery" thread 👍

 

[SalmanBH]

This is the "Immigration" thread not "Slavery" thread 👍

I'm not even going to deny the fact that migrant workers are treated unfairly

'Bahrain is a destination country for men and women trafficked for the purposes of forced labor and commercial sexual exploitation. Men and women from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Ethiopia, and Eritrea migrate voluntarily to Bahrain to work as formal sector laborers or domestic workers. Some, however, face conditions of involuntary servitude after arriving in Bahrain, such as unlawful withholding of passports, restrictions on movement, non-payment of wages, threats, and physical or sexual abuse.' - U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009

Human trafficking is a huge problem here, and there hasn't been much done to deal with the issue until recently. Not just that, but unfair treatment of housemaids and domestic workers is also a huge issue, and I am truly saddened by this fact.

The issue is also prevalent in most other Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries.

 

[TenEightyOne]

This is the "Immigration" thread not "Slavery" thread 👍

You think the two are always separate in modern times?

EDIT: Or any times for that matter?

 

[ryzno]

Seems the thread is based around Europe. Regardless immigration is a problem in America. But on the other edge of the sowrd, America did practically strong arm, what we call our land...

 

[Sanji Himura]

Again not what he said on Radio 4, he was quite specific in stating that the key driver for economic recovery right now is productivity and without a rise in productivity the economic recovery will fail.

I would recommend having a listen on the iPlayer (it was around 8:30ish this morning) because it does seem to be quite at odds with the Times interview.

(With me being in the US and all...)

I can tell without being in Britian that Mr. Carney, whatever he said, is entirely accurate. The issue then becomes does these migrants, for lack of a better term, "keep their money in the country where they earned it." Here in the US, the answer is no, and a lot of that is because of illegal immigrants sending their money down to Mexico where the tax laws are favorable to them. Think that the Swiss banking laws was a hot bed for US tax cheats? It ain't got nothing on Mexico.

 

[KSaiyu]

You think the two are always separate in modern times?

EDIT: Or any times for that matter?

Odd comment, and I'm not sure why the poster is "liking" it. Re-read it, from another slant:

With a growing population as of 1860, about 10% of America's inhabitants are from Africa. To be honest, America's rapid economic growth over the past 30 to 40 years was mainly based on the importation of cheap foreign labour, mostly from West Africa and the Caribbean.

Without them, I really don't know where we would be right now.

Make sense?

EDIT: It's fine to bring it up, but it's like bringing up Eastern European sex slaves in London in the thread.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Odd comment, and I'm not sure why the poster is "liking" it. Re-read it, from another slant:

With a growing population as of 1860, about 10% of America's inhabitants are from Africa. To be honest, America's rapid economic growth over the past 30 to 40 years was mainly based on the importation of cheap foreign labour, mostly from West Africa and the Caribbean.

Without them, I really don't know where we would be right now.

Make sense?

EDIT: It's fine to bring it up, but it's like bringing up Eastern European sex slaves in London in the thread.

Your usually-shifty way of answering a question, in my opinion, but at least you answered. Slavery and immigration are not mutually exclusive and can in fact be the same thing.

As inconvenient as that truth may be for your current agenda it remains.

 

[Garage13]

well this is my take on immigration.I have friends who have done noble ways of gaining citizenship in this country.I know a guy from russia who did 10 Years in both the Russian and American Armies to get his citizenship.I know of another guy from Hati who did two tours in Iraq to get his,he recently got blown up in afghanistan,still alive today,going to be getting out in about 1-2yrs time.I feel that you should have enough respect for the country that's willing to take you in and give you a chance to do it the legal way.
Those who break the law by coming here illegally should not only be held to the extent of the law but i feel we can take a page out of Malaysia's playbook and we could feed them and then turn them back like they did with a group of muslims on ships recently.It has a humanitarian element to it in a sense

I don't agree with parent who use their kids to secure themselves citizenship(having kids born here specifically for that purpose)In general children are innocent.

In reguards to what KSaiyu said slavery did play a part of economic growth but also capitalisim and other merchants played an important role as well

 

[TenEightyOne]

In reguards to what KSaiyu said slavery did play a part of economic growth but also capitalisim and other merchants played an important role as well

Unless the First Nation People are the majority then you could argue that the United States are built entirely on immigration, your country is very very young.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I say it's more important to follow through on your highest ideals, and the economy be damned. Sacrifice everything, jobs, homes, fortunes and lives, but not your essential values.

Ayn, is that you, risen from the dead?

 

[Liquid]

Unless the First Nation People are the majority then you could argue that the United States are built entirely on immigration, your country is very very young.

It's always an interesting point, that one. The Federal United States, by which I mean the Mayflower onwards and not the federal government in general, is almost entirely built around English, Dutch and Swedish colonists followed by mass immigration from Germany and Ireland along with land purchases from the French and Spanish.*

Now, not to divulge as to where the distinct American identity came from, but it is rather peculiar just how much it was dependant on immigration and/or colonisation. Morally heinous or not, the slave trade added to the fact that immigration (or 'coerced' immigration) was and is a big part in the history of the United States. Coupled with how easily some North Americans will claim their foreign ancestry, it's funny how immigration is a big problem for others. I'd be interested to know what our members personal opinions are, given their rather recent history with mass immigration.

At some point it's a matter of degrees and how far back you go; the collective history of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland is also full of immigration, native slaughter and disposition. But because it was "that long" into the past it's pretty much forgotten, especially by the xenophobic parties and lobbies. However, even today in the UK there are arguments on the cultural status of indigenous people; Wales has a small and ugly side of genuine English resentment and iconic protection of the Welsh language and the two countries have been balled and chained for what, 731 years now?

*Do forgive me, a damned redcoat, if this is inaccurate

 

[KSaiyu]

I think we look at what was "acceptable" for the times. We don't forget about nation's histories, but it's folly to judge those actions using the standards of modern times. Would anyone agree with apartheid now? That was only a few decades ago.

 

[polysmut]

I think that immigration/emmigration are positive things & that the UK could do with more of both.
(spelling mistake corrected)

 

[FoRiZon]

And now the UN want countries like Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia to shelter illegal Immigrants.

So what about Australia, then?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So what about Australia, then?

Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia are better candidates.

Our policy is to deter asylum seekers by making the trip as difficult and as dangerous as possible. Given that the refugees are fleeing from war, persecution, genocide and rape, you can only imagine just how far we have to go to deter them. It's disgusting and shameful.

The only way to redeem ourselves is to make every scrap of information about Operation Sovereign Borders publicly and unequivocally available, and for the government to submit it to the UN with a promise that the UN's recommendations will be observed. But they won't do that, because that would likely mean that our dear leaders are sent to the Hague to face prosecution. What we are doing to asylum seekers is nothing short of a crime.

 

[LeMansAid]

Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia are better candidates.

Our policy is to deter asylum seekers by making the trip as difficult and as dangerous as possible. Given that the refugees are fleeing from war, persecution, genocide and rape, you can only imagine just how far we have to go to deter them. It's disgusting and shameful.

What would be your preferred policy? One that considers both now and the future.

 

[DRJULESSTEELE]

Legal immigration is fine by me but countries need to be more selective in applications by that I mean education backgrounds an what not depending on the soci/economic needs of a nation.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What would be your preferred policy?

I don't know what the ultimate form it would take - but it wouldn't violate human rights.

 

[LeMansAid]

I don't know what the ultimate form it would take - but it wouldn't violate human rights.

You haven't got even a copy and paste from someone else?

You're rather vocal about the issue, but I've never seen you posit a solution. Maybe you should ease up until you've got at least some sort of vague idea of one. Or not...... but it's really just noise, without an alternate proposal.