Improvements!....Physics-wise

  • Thread starter Osr20_L
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Osr20_L

Osr20_L

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OL_APEX
We all know that the current physics of GT5 is one of best among the consoles to date but... it has some flaws like:
-lack of understeer feel on the wheel.
-almost now grip in very low speeds, it feels like the car is over ice sometimes.
-over exagerated grip reduction after going over dry sand and grass..(Laguna Seca!! anyone!!)
-etc..

So the question is... is this physics limited by the performance of the console? or just more programing neded? And is it possible to achive phisycs almost like the PC sims on the ps3??

Some effects and physics improvement we want to see (aded from the comments):

*Better low speed physics & tire model.
*New tire model with mor tire options
*Tire blow outs.
*Brake fade.
*Better dynamic weight distribution.
*New suspension model that actualy behaves like suspension.
*torque steer.
*Better aero dynamics
*Engine braking
*Better Understeer and front tire lock Force Fedback
 
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Osr20_L
-over exagerated grip reduction after going over grass or sand..
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Not sure if you have ever driven off the track in real life, but you do lose all grip completely, just like in GT5. Especially if you are accelerating or decelerating, as the weight of the car is unbalanced. I've had to avoid situations on track before and as soon as you are in the grass, you might as well be on ice grip wise. All of that grass and dirt stays on your tires for a while until you put some stress on them to wear it off.
 
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Osr20_L
We all know that the current physics of GT5 is the best among the consoles to date but...
[...]
And is it possible to achive phisycs almost like the PC sims on the ps3??
Click to expand...
Erm... Have you ever played.. "the other console sim"? I bet you haven't... cause it's physics engine is unfortunately years ahead of GT5's.
Well.. there are many games with cars which have way better physics than GT5.
What I can name... "driving model/engine" in GT5 is very good but physics engine very (I mean VERY) bad :(

And yes.. it's 100% possible on the PS3, so let's hope that they (PD) will make it good this time.

ps. Sorry if my English is bad ;)
 
Emet_PL
Erm... Have you ever played.. "the other console sim"? I bet you haven't... cause it's physics engine is unfortunately years ahead of GT5's.
Well.. there are many games with cars which have way better physics than GT5.
What I can name... "driving model/engine" in GT5 is very good but physics engine very (I mean VERY) bad :(

And yes.. it's 100% possible on the PS3, so let's hope that they (PD) will make it good this time.
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well, y have played dirt 2 & 3, toca racedriver ps2 (good one), enthusia ps2 & Forza4 xbox.... In PC it's another story.. Maby it's more a personal prefference and i feeld a bether physics on GT5, maby i'm wrong...

And yes...i also hope PD step up they're game with the physics on GT6 👍
 
ZohsixGT5
Not sure if you have ever driven off the track in real life, but you do lose all grip completely, just like in GT5. Especially if you are accelerating or decelerating, as the weight of the car is unbalanced. I've had to avoid situations on track before and as soon as you are in the grass, you might as well be on ice grip wise. All of that grass and dirt stays on your tires for a while until you put some stress on them to wear it off.
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Well the truth is no.. i'm comparing the grip effect with the PC sims i've played and in those you have more control of the car afther an off track than in GT5 with the grip reduction set to "Real"
 
In my opinion, TOCA2 for PS2 had one of the best physics I've ever seen in a driving sim game. One of the reasons I like GT above TOCA 'n stuff is actually the number of vehicles within the game (altough it could have more diversity such as pick-ups n stuff), and the sort of "real-life" feeling you get from GT. TOCA and other games just feel like.. a game. Sure, there are some other games that might be better in some ways that GT isn't but the upsides compensate for all downsides.

GT4 players will know: "Understeer all the way!" - Cars felt like they didn't have suspention nor steering, sadly.

When I played GT5 for the first time, I realized that they improved the physics engine, but they still have plenty of work ahead.
 
Osr20_L
So the question is... is this physics limited by the performance of the console? or just more programing neded? And is it possible to achive phisycs almost like the PC sims on the ps3??
Click to expand...

PC sims focus on the physics with graphics second. Gran Turismo focuses on graphics with physics 2nd possibly even 3rd or worse. PD's team is made up of over 100 people and a vast majority of them are dedicated to modeling cars, not physics.

PS3 hardware is certainly capable of rendering PC sim like physics. There are 5-10 year old PC sims more realistic then GT5 in terms of physics, so hardware is not an issue.
 
I'd like to see an improvement in aero dynamics. I have no clue how it's calculated/programmed now, but it can sure be improved a lot.
 
I think they need to fix grip on tire wear I know you lose a lot grip when tire are bald but I know you do not lose as much as gran turismo portrays it.
 
Denilson
I'd like to see an improvement in aero dynamics. I have no clue how it's calculated/programmed now, but it can sure be improved a lot.
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No doubt, the current drafting/slipstream formula PD has come up with belongs in the garbage, that could have been an easy bug fix by now.
 
occasionalracer
No doubt, the current drafting/slipstream formula PD has come up with belongs in the garbage, that could have been an easy bug fix by now.
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Yes, for sure. I did'nt think of the slipstream/drafting part though.. But now that you mention it.. ;) 👍

I was more on about how aeroedynamics seam to be calculated just wrong.. Perhaps it have to do with lack of drag cooficient calculations or whtever, but all in all, the whole aero/drag/slipstream/drag cooficient needs to be totally rebuilt/reprogrammed.
 
Yes, the aerodynamics are really strange. Just take a normal car wich already has a wing and then add some gt-auto wings and aero. The car gains way too much downforce from minor changes.
 
PD needs to aim for iRacing. I know that there's no chance they'll match it, but at least having high expectations means that they can improve a lot. And I mean, a lot.

Something as basic as engine braking, yet not modelled:



Or the fact that (I've been told) that GT5's tire model is very basic. Driving below 5 km/h in GT5 is impossible, because the car will actually unrealistically slide around.
 
I'm no expert so maybe someone will set me straight, but when watching real life formula 1 racing and racing in other sims, it is common for the drivers to shift down to 1st gear in the really tight corners. In GT5 it is practically impossible (or I'm just not very good) to maintain grip out of a corner in first gear when in a powerful rear wheel drive car. Is this something wrong with the physics or something wrong with my driving? In the FGT championship I hardly ever dropped below 3rd gear!
 
PaullyS
I'm no expert so maybe someone will set me straight, but when watching real life formula 1 racing and racing in other sims, it is common for the drivers to shift down to 1st gear in the really tight corners. In GT5 it is practically impossible (or I'm just not very good) to maintain grip out of a corner in first gear when in a powerful rear wheel drive car. Is this something wrong with the physics or something wrong with my driving? In the FGT championship I hardly ever dropped below 3rd gear!
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This is normal in every game and in real life. It is more a problem with your driving. It is used to use the full power to accellerate out of a very tight corner. But you have to be very gentle with high powered cars or the rear will get sideways.

In my eyes, the cars are also way too easy to drive. You may underseer out of a corner, but nothing more. Doesnt matter how much power you have what tyres. You can abuse the cars in GT5 way too much, before it gets dangerous.
 
PaullyS
DFGT. So do you actually use 1st gear ever?
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I have a G27. I do use first quite often (in GT5), and it's very possible to control your car.

Another possibility could be the "mushy" pedals of the DFGT (so I've been told), making throttle control more difficult.
 
Not sure about F1 but taking an educated guess I would say 1st gear is for launch only.

Probably then there only on first for around 2 seconds.
Low speed corners would be in second Gear.

Well that's my theory. I've never gone into first gear for a corner on any sim.
 
Tyre model, even with completely worn out tyres you should still be able to put in reasonable lap times, ie be able to drive around a corner then accelerate. Rather than Not even being able to cruise back to pits or use any power like it is in GT5.
The only way I can legitimise it now is by thinking the expired tyre in GT5 represents a puncture leading to disintegrated tyre or blow out, so in fact you have no tyre to use, which is more in tune to the drive-ability you get in the physics (ie hardly any).
 
Low speed physics in GT5 are very awkward. You get wheel spin just by tapping the gas and going very slow. And they really need to improve suspension physics and body roll, it's especially noticeable on old muscle cars. I guess this is why it looks so unrealistic when the car lands after jumping. And, they need to improve already mentioned unrealistic tire wear, as well as making the tire model better by calculating tire temperature, width and size. But I'm sure the physics will be improved significantly.
 
PaullyS
I'm no expert so maybe someone will set me straight, but when watching real life formula 1 racing and racing in other sims, it is common for the drivers to shift down to 1st gear in the really tight corners. In GT5 it is practically impossible (or I'm just not very good) to maintain grip out of a corner in first gear when in a powerful rear wheel drive car. Is this something wrong with the physics or something wrong with my driving? In the FGT championship I hardly ever dropped below 3rd gear!
Click to expand...

This is actually related to a major flaw in the adjustable transmission which did not exist in GT1, but has been included since GT2. There is no where near enough flexibility in gear ratios. Race cars usually have monstrously tall first gears that are set for the lowest speed corner. This allows the remaining gears to be extremely close together so that the engine is never far from peak power. In GT, setting gear ratios is a joke because you're locked into a nearly useless range of settings.

Physics improvements I'd like to see:

New tire model with 2-3 times as many tire options, especially for racing tires, advanced tire wear with bald spots, blow outs, etc
New suspension model that behaves like suspension
Aerodynamics model with plausible lift/drag relationship and slipstream strength along with degradation of downforce and possibly cooling in slipstream
Brake fade
Non point model cars (mass and inertia spread through the entire car, not concentrated at a point)
Real fuel tank sizes
Driver mass modeled
Wheel/drivetrain friction and inertia (see how long a wheel spins when you get it off the ground in GT5)
Track temperature variation
 
Exorcet
This is actually related to a major flaw in the adjustable transmission which did not exist in GT1, but has been included since GT2. There is no where near enough flexibility in gear ratios. Race cars usually have monstrously tall first gears that are set for the lowest speed corner. This allows the remaining gears to be extremely close together so that the engine is never far from peak power. In GT, setting gear ratios is a joke because you're locked into a nearly useless range of settings.

Physics improvements I'd like to see:

New tire model with 2-3 times as many tire options, especially for racing tires, advanced tire wear with bald spots, blow outs, etc
New suspension model that behaves like suspension
Aerodynamics model with plausible lift/drag relationship and slipstream strength along with degradation of downforce and possibly cooling in slipstream
Brake fade
Non point model cars (mass and inertia spread through the entire car, not concentrated at a point)
Real fuel tank sizes
Driver mass modeled
Wheel/drivetrain friction and inertia (see how long a wheel spins when you get it off the ground in GT5)
Track temperature variation
Click to expand...

Do you know this to be true? (Bolded text) Doesn't seem plausible to me. How would you account for the difference in how FWD MR and RWD cars handle?
 
I'm not entirely sure on it. I do think that the mass of the car including fuel is lumped into a point that can be placed anywhere in the car body, but the forces on the car are distributed properly. One reason being that GT5 cars have massive generic fuel tanks, even the smaller ones, and they don't seem to change behavior going from full to empty or vice versa.

Another thing is that when launching a car, it always goes perfectly straight (assuming flat surface). Out of 1000 cars, I'm sure that more than a few don't have perfect 50/50 left/right weight distribution.

Weight balance also is not changed when you perform a weight reduction, though that is possible to a degree, and as I pointed out above, wheels don't seem to have any mass or friction attributed to them. Take a Ferrari F1 to Daytona and park it so that a wheel comes off the ground on the banking. It will spin forever unless you hit the brakes, and no matter how lightly you touch the brakes, the wheel stops instantly when not in contact with the ground.
 

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