**INTEREST CHECK -- "American Iron" - REVISED**

[goixoye]

American Iron (AI) / American Iron Extreme (AIX) Series​

NASA (National Auto Sport Association)​

This is a real life series. http://www.nasaproracing.com/proracing/ai.html

First of all I’m not an AI / AIX expert. I had a friend / coworker who competed in the east division of this series. That’s how I heard about it. I never had the opportunity to go to a race. Since I noticed the OLR on GTP I’ve been thinking about proposing this. Kolyana’s American Muscle Championship (AMC) has caused me to think more seriously about it. Personally I would like to run this series as close to the real life specs as possible but I am open to flexibility that might generate a broader interest base.

My intention with this series is to “simulate” more realistic racing conditions. Primarily I wanted realistic horsepower levels, tire wear and “on-track” competition (in addition to on-line).


Real World Rules / Information

American sedans (2 or 4 doors w/ a back seat)
FR Layout

AI:
1. 2800 pound (1270kg) minimum weight
2. 9.5:1 pound /HP (4.308:1 kg/HP) weight to power minimum
3. Toyo RA-1 tires – **not sure how this relates to the available tires in GT4?, maybe someone with some racing tire knowledge could provide some input?**

AIX:
1. 2700 pound (1225kg) minimum weight
2. No weight to power restrictions
3. Tires? From the rules I can’t tell if it’s the same as AI specs or not. The difference noted is larger diameter and width than AI.

There are, of course, many other rules / details but in my opinion they aren’t relevant to a simulated GT4 competition.

One significant issue is that AI / AIX measures horsepower at the rear wheels. GT4 appears to use manufacturer’s specs for horsepower which is generally measured at the flywheel. Typically there is an 18% to 25% loss of horsepower between the flywheel and the rear wheels.

AI cars typically have 320HP. AIX cars have between 420 and 500HP with “some 600HP monsters lurking out there”.

Proposed GT4 Rules:

If there’s enough interest I would like to run the competition as close to “real life” as possible.


1. Standard OLR Rules
2. No hybrids
3. No cheating of any kind
4. There will be other cars on the track for many of the events – contact should be avoided as if it were your car in the race and you would have to pay for the damage.
5. Only American sedans (2 or 4 doors w/ a back seat).
6. FR Layout
7. NO TCS, NO ASM – let’s keep it as realistic as possible
8. Nitrous NOT allowed
9. No “race cars” allowed
10. We will run both AI and AIX events.

AI:
1. 2800 pound (1270kg) minimum weight
2. 9.5:1 pound /HP (4.308:1 kg/HP) weight to power minimum
3. S1 (Sports Hard) tires. I’ve done a little research consensus seems to indicates these are closest to “track tires”.
4. 320 / .82 = 390HP Max. AI real life horsepower / drivetrain efficiency. I used the highest efficiency assuming that everybody would run cars with triple plate clutches, racing flywheels and carbon driveshafts.* ***The R/T, 'Cuda, Super Bee and Superbird are exceptions to the 390HP rule. These cars are allowed only an oil change: R/T = 400HP/1414kg, 'Cuda = 409HP/1448kg, Super Bee and Superbird = 453HP/1603kg.***
5. Weight calculation. Don't forget the drivetrain efficiency factor.
Garage HP (flywheel) x .82 (drivetrain efficiency) = HP (at the rear wheels).
HP (rear wheels) x 4.308 = Weight (kg).
Example: 390 x .82 = 320. 320 x 4.308 = 1379kg

AIX:
1. 2700 pound (1225kg) minimum weight
2. No weight to power restrictions
3. S3 (Sports Soft). I am doing this because of the race format and specifically the existing GT4 series where the AIX portion of this competition will be fought.
4. 460 / .82 = 560HP Max. I took the middle ground in the real life AIX range of horsepower.*

*I have noticed that sometimes the HP might be well under the limit and the next part may put it slightly over the limit. So I'm going to allow some flexibility in the maximum HP. If the build is up to 5HP above the limit that's OK provided the previous part was more than 5HP below the limit. Ex: the AI GNX I tested was 393HP I believe the next lower step would have been 379HP. If you add parts and get to 385HP you're done even if the next part is worth 10HP and would take you to the absolute maximum upper limit of 395HP. There may be some flexibillity beyond this but I will deal with that on a case by case basis.

Modifications:
= Whatever parts are necessary to get as close as possible to the allowable weight, HP and ratio (where applicable). Be careful about the parts that have “permanent” effects on the car (port polish, engine balancing, weight reduction) since the same car will be used for both events. Note in AI trim some of the cars are not allowed an oil change.
= Stiffness / Rigidity Required – in real life roll bars are required.
= "Racing Everything" on non-HP parts except on the AI Super Bee and AI Superbird because of their HP advantage. See the specific notes on the car list below.

Cars

Buick GNX
Chevrolet IROC Z
Chevrolet Camaro SS 1969
Chevrolet Camaro SS 2000
Chevrolet Chevelle -- AIX Only
Chrysler 300C
Dodge Charger 440 R/T -- (1)
Dodge Charger Super Bee -- (2)
Ford Mustang GT
Ford Mustang SVT
Mercury Cougar
Plymouth ‘Cuda -- (1)
Plymouth Superbird -- (2)
Pontiac GTO 2004
Pontiac GTO 1964
Shelby Mustang GT350R

(1) AI -- oil change ALLOWED, NO other HP mods -- all non-HP mods OK
(2) AI -- oil change ALLOWED, NO other HP mods -- Weight Reduction, Racing Brakes, Custom Tranny, Racing Suspension, Custom LSD, S1 Tires -- no other non-HP mods (basically NO "drivetrain efficiency" parts - clutch, flywheel, drive shaft)

Race Format / Venue

GT Mode
Revised Venue / Format

Week 1 AI Qualifier - All competitors use the same car with the same mods
Week 2 AIX Qualifier - All competitors use the same car with the same mods

(Week 1 & 2 cars and tracks decided by vote. Week 2 track will be the reverse of Week 1.)

Week 3 AI Event 1 - Extreme Hall, PD Cup, Events 1 - 5
Motegi Road - 6 Laps
Seattle (Rev) - 7 Laps
Infineon - 8 Laps
Tokyo (Rev) - 5 Laps
Fuji, 2005 - 6 Laps

Week 4 AI Event 2 - Extreme Hall, PD Cup, Events 6 - 10
Motorland Reverse - 19 Laps
Sarthe I - 2 Laps
El Capitan (Rev) - 6 Laps
Suzuka - 5 Laps
Nurburgring - 2 Laps

Week 5 AIX Event 1 - Professional Hall, Tuning Car Grad Prix, Events 1 – 5 (all of them)
Apricot Hill (Rev) - 3 Laps
Fuji, 90's - 3 Laps
Tokyo - 2 Laps
El Capitan (Rev) 3 Laps
Tsukuba - 5 Laps

Week 6 AI Event 3 – Endurance Hall – El Capitan, 200 Miles (66 Laps)
Week 7 AIX Event 2 – Sarthe II, Family Cup – this lets you top out your “Iron” while not being as boring as Test Curse. With a difficulty setting of 10 it gave me a 137 pt race (Mustang SVT). Got to draft a Nardo down the straight, 218+mph!

Week 8 AI Finale
Week 9 AIX Finale

(Week 8 & 9 track decided by vote. Week 9 track will be the reverse of Week 8. You choose the car.)

I thought this revised format would offer a little bit of everything competition wise.

The race series I have chosen are competitive with the level of cars. You should be able to win

The PD Cup events offer about 3 levels of competition:
1. a field with the Audi S3
2. a field with the NISMO Fairlady Z S-Tune Concept by GT
3. a field with the Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG
The SL55 AMG is the strongest car, I would recommend this choice. I may award “difficulty” points for selecting the strongest field.

The Tuning Car events offer a seemingly unlimited competition combination.. I raced against the RUF CTR2 and “Yellowbird” in the same race. I had to run it several times to be able to win. One time I won by 0.018s. I’m not sure how to award “difficulty” points…possibly by how close the 2nd place finisher is? Or by how closely you finish 2nd, 3rd or whatever?

**The New York and Laguna Seca Enduro events may be an option to the El Capitan Enduro...any thoughts? El Capitan may be overdone in this series? At least the Enduro is forward (I think), the opposite of the PD Cup and Tuner Grand Prix races.**

Points
NASCAR style.

01 = 180
02 = 170
03 = 165
04 = 160
05 = 155
06 = 150
07 = 146
08 = 142
09 = 138
10 = 134
11 = 130
12 = 127
From here points decrease by 3.

Bonus Points.
Currently under review.

Qualifying
For Weeks 3, 4 and 5 (and 6 and 7 if those events offer qualifying) the lower 1/3 of the field gets to qualify for races. However, I don’t want this to give somebody too much of an advantage, so…. You can qualify for the 1st race. If you win the 1st race you cannot qualify for the 2nd race but if you lose the 1st race you can qualify for the 2nd race. Basically you cannot qualify for any race if you won the preceding race. I expect most of us will be able to win all the races in these events. If that’s the case then the only race you would be able to qualify for would be the 1st one. So you get a one race qualifying advantage. This would apply to the lower 1/3 from the preceding week as well as anybody in the lower 3rd of the overall standings.

Number of “Attempts” of Events
Week 1,2, 7, 8, 9 - Unlimited
Week 3, 4, 5 and 6 – 2 Only….the first one intended for discussion purposes. You can discuss all times (including lap times) except the final time. You can also discuss your practice times, lap times and all. Weeks 3, 4 and 5 must be run consecutively (as would be done in the GT mode “championship”). If you want to “start” a race to see the A-spec points and then exit out to get a higher or lower point value that doesn’t count as an “Attempt”. But once you actually start the series you’re locked in. Even though there are 5 events each for Weeks 3, 4 and 5 with just 2 “Attemps” each I don’t think it will result in a time burden.…we all spend more time than that now on events and it is almost impossible to truly practice for these events anyway because of tire wear…unless you do the practicing in “Practice” (qualifying). For those not allowed to “qualify” you could just qualify and then exit out without running the race or it seems that if you run the “qualifying” long enough the computer drivers tires warm up and they put down some pretty good laps…they might even knock you back in the field. Practice could also be done in a time trial mode (no tire wear) or in Family Cup. You cannot practice an actual race individually.

GT4 versus “Real Life”

The west division of this series actually runs at Infineon – Sports Car Course. The record lap is 1’49.991 by Guy Cunningham. In an AI spec car. --- Take a lap in an AI car and see where you stack up. After 11 laps in an AI Mustang SVT I finally beat my AMC Shelby time with a lap of 1'41.042. Somewhat unrealistic relative to Guy's record lap time.



I could use some help with the final development / implementation. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Target for starting this series would be around the 1st of the year. This would allow a break from the “muscle” cars used in the AMC.

 

[Kolyana]

I've printed your post for lengthly review later, but I really like the proposition, the cars and the point system for 'buying' parts (although I may be reading that wrong).

I've commented on some of your questions before and I'll comment on the rest later on when I have reviewed them and given them some though, but I wanted to say that you've obviously put some thought into this and give my vote of support 👍

 

[Jetboy.]

Ah....hmm....interesting. I'd like to see if this bombs or flies before I say much else, but nicely organized, Ronny. 👍

 

[Dave_George]

I think its a good idea 💡 even though i dont particularly like the all american car line up , but can see why its that way, so if it goes ahead put me down mate 👍

Has been already said that its obvious a lot of work has already gone in..well done!

cheers

Dave

 

[goixoye]

@Jet - let me know what you really think....this is an interest check. I need to know.

@Dave - I've done a little testing relative to the "World 4 Play" idea - basically all 4WDs that could meet the HP & wt. criteria. This would allow the Japanese cars as well as Audi's and VW's and I think the Ford RS200. Would this be a more attractive offering? or ALL FR sedans is another alternative. Without opening Pandora's box I am flexible...except "Primarily I wanted realistic horsepower levels, tire wear and “on-track” competition (in addition to on-line)."

It seems that maybe all cars within these guidelines (390HP, 560HP) might be competitive in GT4s PD Cup and Tuner Series. I started with "American Iron" because that was the series that provided the basis for my rules...but I'm not married to it.

A flaw may be the field equalization....makin' 'em as even as possible on the spec sheet might not work out so good?

 

[Dave_George]

Nah keep it how you had it originally, i need more practice with the American stuff!

cheers

Dave

 

[Kolyana]

Okay, a little late, but here we go ...

All right, I've got some observations, opinions and questions regarding the American Iron Series.

Firstly, timing on this one is going to be important. There's somewhat of a glut in the series at the moment: The JGTC has snagged a few dedicated drivers, the Trans Am is still running, The Nurburgring is going to be running for many months and so on.

Add to this Nitro's Australian Challenge, a forthcoming Rally event, Darkwind's 2-door and Jetboys Muscle:Unlimited and there's a pretty busy season ahead!

Not sure when you're planning on really kicking this off, but I'd take timing into consideration, try and avoid overlaps and particularly avoid bringing the same type of cars into a new series too close to previous events ending (American Trans Am and the forthcoming Muscle:Unlimited being prime examples).

Secondly, I followed much of what you wrote but got completely confused by other aspects, so let me take this a piece at a time.

I'd go with the American cars that you have listed. Not sure what the AI/AIX normally dictate regarding 4WD/MR and all that jazz, but the list you gave I really quite liked. Keep it American.

I may be stupid, but I got confused regarding the AI/AIX ... are we meant to be running in both? What is the proposed format? One track, a given car for all drivers, and then race? Change the car and track the next week and race again? How does this relate to the AI/AIX? Are we running both cars on the same track in one week (thus 2 races?).

I apologize if that seems stupid, but a little clarification on that would be great.

Likewise, your Adjustments chart blew my brain ... I'm an intellgent gal, but I failed to see what it was for or how it related to the series. An explanation of this, please.

"seldom chosen cars could be used for the first 2 events".
Whuh? Again, the format is losing me. What "first 2 events"?

You gave a track list - Autumn Ring, Deep Forest, El Capitan, Grand Valley, Mid-Field, Trial Mountain ... great, great tracks ... but then after that you name 3 AI and 3 AIX events with completely different tracks. How do these relate?

Looking at your post, you indicate that the tracks will be run forward and reverse, once for AI one direction and then AIX in the other direction ... I kinda like that idea ... but I'm not sure how this relates to the Extreme Hall and Professional Hall events ... unless you're talking about doing these AS WELL.

Lower Portion of the field gaining a head start ... not sure how you're going to work this, but I could throw a qualifier just to get the head start in the race ...

I liked the idea of awarding points for a greater difficulty, but there should be a permitted range (or it should be considered).

Liked your tire choices ... but if we're racing, is it your intention to force pitstops? If so, will R1 tires permit extended laps with no pit required?

TCS/ASM: Both off.

Same Car for both events ... once I understand how the events are going to work on a week by week basis I'll be able to comment more accurately.

Track Selection: Liked the first list, got confused about the second list.

How does qualifying relate to all of this?

4WD: I think you have something with the AI/AIX ... save 4WD for another time

Sorry if I sound dumb, but a little clarification on how you envisage the series running week to week would be great.

 

[63AvantiR3]

Goixoye, Toyo RA-1s are very sticky but treaded tires. http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/sports_car/ra1.html

As you'll read on the site, 8/32" depth is full tread and good for the wet weather. At 4/32" tread depth, you'll find that it's like a racing slick that happens to (barely) have treads.

You'll also see the treadwear rating of 100 AA A. The number is how long the tire will last. The smaller the number, the shorter it will last. RA-1 tires used to be rated at 40. AA is its traction rating (very good) and A is its temperature rating (next to the best).

By comparison, the Falken Azenis have a treadwear rating of 200, and that's short for a street tire. Many all-season radials have treadwear ratings around 320-360... sometimes up to 400+. The RA-1s got readjusted from 40 to 100 because the tires were performing better than Toyo had originally guessed.

Given the choices in Gran Turismo 4, it's very hard to say. It's like the softest treaded compound, but it could also act like a soft to medium slick compound; especially after it has run a few races. When the 4/32" tread depth becomes closer to 0, the tire isn't junk, but it no longer becomes useful in wet weather. It's then a very sticky non-treaded tire, or what you'd call a slick.

Some NASA divisions that specifically use RA-1 tires are: Pro7 (first generation RX-7s prepared to spec. rules), Camaro-Mustang Challenge, Vette-Viper Challenge, American Iron, and GTi Cup, amongst others. The RA-1 will last an entire season of Pro7, and GTi Cup. When you get into the more powerful, heavier, harder turning AI, CMC, and VVC though, the torque of those beasts turn the RA-1s into rubber dust more easily. Illegal traction control means that throttle application is key, or you'll be buying more tires in a season.

Speed World Challenge Touring Class has always used RA-1 tires. Speed World Challenge GT started off on Toyo T1-S tires, but switched to RA-1 tires a few years ago.

I wish I would have seen this post before. I could have taken some pictures of RA-1 tires for you while I was at Laguna Seca this weekend. Maybe I'll take some more pictures of my friend's two RX-7s (one NASA Pro7 prepared, the other SCCA ITA prepared) and the RA-1s he uses.

 

[Kolyana]

Great info 63' 👍

 

[goixoye]

Firstly, timing on this one is going to be important. There's somewhat of a glut in the series at the moment: The JGTC has snagged a few dedicated drivers, the Trans Am is still running, The Nurburgring is going to be running for many months and so on.

Add to this Nitro's Australian Challenge, a forthcoming Rally event, Darkwind's 2-door and Jetboys Muscle:Unlimited and there's a pretty busy season ahead!

Not sure when you're planning on really kicking this off, but I'd take timing into consideration, try and avoid overlaps and particularly avoid bringing the same type of cars into a new series too close to previous events ending (American Trans Am and the forthcoming Muscle:Unlimited being prime examples).

Well I was targeting around the 1st of the year but there have been many other recently proposed series and I didn't realize the the Nurb series was going to be as long as it is apparently going to be (probably didn't read the info carefully enough). To be honest it seems that this series is going to die a natural death due to lack of interest.

Secondly, I followed much of what you wrote but got completely confused by other aspects, so let me take this a piece at a time.

I'd go with the American cars that you have listed. Not sure what the AI/AIX normally dictate regarding 4WD/MR and all that jazz, but the list you gave I really quite liked. Keep it American.

AI & AIX stipulates front engine, rear wheel drive sedans

I may be stupid, but I got confused regarding the AI/AIX ... are we meant to be running in both? What is the proposed format? One track, a given car for all drivers, and then race? Change the car and track the next week and race again? How does this relate to the AI/AIX? Are we running both cars on the same track in one week (thus 2 races?).

We’ll be running cars in both AI and AIX trim but not in the same week. I think the other parts to this question will be answered later, below. It might be best to run the "qualifiers" first, then all the AI events together, followed by all the AIX events...instead of the way I originally listed them. But I'm not sure. I really would like to do the Nurb event last. So I'm not sure about the best way to do this. Still in a bit of a stat of flux.

Week 1 AI Qualifier - All competitors use the same car with the same mods
Week 2 AIX Qualifier - All competitors use the same car with the same mods

These are primarily to have a varied format but also to help determine driver ability. This may help later in the season if “adjustments” are required to make the field more competitive. These will both be points events to encourage the competitors to do their best.

Week 3 AI Event 1 - Extreme Hall, PD Cup, Infineon – Driver Car Choice
Week 4 AI Event 2 - Extreme Hall, PD Cup, Suzuka – Driver Car Choice
Week 5 AI Event 3 - Extreme Hall, PD Cup, Nurburgring – Driver Car Choice

Week 6 AIX Event 1 – Professional Hall, Tuning Car Grad Prix, Apricot Hill – Driver Car Choice
Week 7 AIX Event 2 – Professional Hall, Tuning Car Grad Prix, Fuji – Driver Car Choice
Week 8 AIX Event 3 – Professional Hall, Tuning Car Grad Prix, Tokyo – Driver Car Choice

Likewise, your Adjustments chart blew my brain ... I'm an intellgent gal, but I failed to see what it was for or how it related to the series. An explanation of this, please.

This is confusing. I might just throw out the idea of allowing varied HP and stipulate AI not greater than 390 and AIX not greater than 560. My thought process was to allow people some flexibility in HP, by compensating with a less efficient drivetrain. Let’s say you wanted the most HP available for AI (427). You cannot have any of the clutch , flywheel, or driveshaft mods…so you’ve got more HP but can you get it to the wheels to make a difference? Also the more HP you have the more weight you must have (for AI). Let’s say you only wanted the Racing Flywheel and thought the other parts wouldn’t contribute to the car’s competitiveness -- the racing flywheel carriers a point value of 3 so AI HP could be 410 max. Let’s say you wanted the triple clutch (3 pts) and racing flywheel (3pts) = 6 pts, AI max HP = 395.

"seldom chosen cars could be used for the first 2 events".
Whuh? Again, the format is losing me. What "first 2 events"?

If I can get everybody to preselect their car it would be great. For argument sake let’s say nobody chooses the IROC Z, Chrysler 300C, Cougar, and 1964 GTO. The competitors would vote to choose which 2 of these cars are used for the “qualifiers”. The one receiving the most votes would be the AI Qualifier, second most would be the AIX Qualifier car. This way we’re not using cars that somebody’s chosen and maybe somehow giving them an advantage over the field in either these “qualifiers” or for the rest of the season.

You gave a track list - Autumn Ring, Deep Forest, El Capitan, Grand Valley, Mid-Field, Trial Mountain ... great, great tracks ... but then after that you name 3 AI and 3 AIX events with completely different tracks. How do these relate?

The Qualifier event track will be chosen by vote between the 6 tracks listed. Week 1 “AI” it’s run forward. Week 2 “AIX” it’s run reverse. These tracks are only voting purposes for the “qualifiers”. The 5 tracks not chosen will not be used in the series.

Looking at your post, you indicate that the tracks will be run forward and reverse, once for AI one direction and then AIX in the other direction ... I kinda like that idea ... but I'm not sure how this relates to the Extreme Hall and Professional Hall events ... unless you're talking about doing these AS WELL.

Only the qualifiers will be run in a forward / reverse format. The other events will be run in whatever fashion offered by the respective existing GT mode series.

Lower Portion of the field gaining a head start ... not sure how you're going to work this, but I could throw a qualifier just to get the head start in the race ...

After the week 1 and 2 “qualifiers” let’s say the lower 3rd of the field are allowed to “qualify” for the week 3 event (after the “qualifiers” the rest of the events are GT mode “series” / "championship" events, as opposed to “single race” events, you can of course “qualify” for GT mode "series" events using “practice”). That way they can start on the pole and save a little time by not having to work you way through the field. If you want to “throw” an event to be able to start 1st instead of 6th that’s your decision but remember the week 1 and 2 “qualifier” events are points events. Also the previous race would be used to determine who gets to qualify. The "qualifiers" would not determine who gets to qualify for the whole season.

I liked the idea of awarding points for a greater difficulty, but there should be a permitted range (or it should be considered).

I’m not sure about the “difficulty” points. This basically has nothing to do with Arcade Mode and Family Cup “dificulty” settings. There are varied difficulties in the field of cars chosen by GT for the series I’m using. It’s just something I threw out. I haven’t put enough thought into it. The better the computer competition will likely help get a lower time. You might slack-off with poorer computer drivers. Maybe that’s enough of a bonus?

Liked your tire choices ... but if we're racing, is it your intention to force pitstops? If so, will R1 tires permit extended laps with no pit required?

AI = S1 (Sports Hard), AIX = S3 (Sports Soft)....I don't understand your reference to R1 tires?

No pit stops. None of the races are long enough to necessitate a pit. I wanted to run the same tire for both AI and AIX but I changed for AIX because of the competitiveness with the GT Mode races. The AIX cars (with S1s) weren't competitive with the stronger computer drivers in the Tuner Car Grand Prix events.

Same car for both events....once I understand how the events are going to work on a week by week basis I'll be able to comment more accurately.

My thought process would be to run the same car for the final 6 events. For the last 3 you would get to add some HP. I would entertain a one time car change…theoretically after week 5 so you could use one car for AI and a different car for AIX. But you could change earlier or later, but only once.

How does qualifying relate to all of this?

I hope that was answered above?


Koly, thank you for your comments. As I noted earlier this proposed series will likely die a natural death due to lack of interest and slip into oblivion in GTP. Then all this will be a moot point. I guess that's what an "Interest Check" is all about.

 

[goixoye]

Goixoye, Toyo RA-1s are very sticky but treaded tires. http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/sports_car/ra1.html

As you'll read on the site, 8/32" depth is full tread and good for the wet weather. At 4/32" tread depth, you'll find that it's like a racing slick that happens to (barely) have treads.

You'll also see the treadwear rating of 100 AA A. The number is how long the tire will last. The smaller the number, the shorter it will last. RA-1 tires used to be rated at 40. AA is its traction rating (very good) and A is its temperature rating (next to the best).

By comparison, the Falken Azenis have a treadwear rating of 200, and that's short for a street tire. Many all-season radials have treadwear ratings around 320-360... sometimes up to 400+. The RA-1s got readjusted from 40 to 100 because the tires were performing better than Toyo had originally guessed.

Given the choices in Gran Turismo 4, it's very hard to say. It's like the softest treaded compound, but it could also act like a soft to medium slick compound; especially after it has run a few races. When the 4/32" tread depth becomes closer to 0, the tire isn't junk, but it no longer becomes useful in wet weather. It's then a very sticky non-treaded tire, or what you'd call a slick.

Some NASA divisions that specifically use RA-1 tires are: Pro7 (first generation RX-7s prepared to spec. rules), Camaro-Mustang Challenge, Vette-Viper Challenge, American Iron, and GTi Cup, amongst others. The RA-1 will last an entire season of Pro7, and GTi Cup. When you get into the more powerful, heavier, harder turning AI, CMC, and VVC though, the torque of those beasts turn the RA-1s into rubber dust more easily. Illegal traction control means that throttle application is key, or you'll be buying more tires in a season.

Speed World Challenge Touring Class has always used RA-1 tires. Speed World Challenge GT started off on Toyo T1-S tires, but switched to RA-1 tires a few years ago.

I wish I would have seen this post before. I could have taken some pictures of RA-1 tires for you while I was at Laguna Seca this weekend. Maybe I'll take some more pictures of my friend's two RX-7s (one NASA Pro7 prepared, the other SCCA ITA prepared) and the RA-1s he uses.

Thanks for the info. So what tires in GT4 compare the best to the Toyo RA-1? I'm trying to make this competition as "realistic" as possible.

 

[Kolyana]

Thanks for answering my questions Goix. I wouldn't worry about 'it dying a natural death'; there is somewhat of a glut of series at the moment, but it wasn't that long ago and there were virtually none except for the JGTC.

Likewise, as you use this thread to firm up a direction the series would go it, perhaps you can edit down your initial post to reflect the clarified details and so on? The AMC has 3 weeks left, the American TransAm will stop at some point, Jet's is next February, I don't think Darkwind has firmed anytihng up yet, so there is defintively going to be a time that would suit a series like this.

More importantly, having a firm plan and direction is most of the battle and the more of a 'theme' you can get the better. From this point of view, if there are enough cars that conform to AI/AIX rules (front engined, rear wheel) then use them ... only broaden the scope if the choice ends up being prohibitive.

Likewise, I've learned that it's possible to be *too* complex (my AMC may have walked that line if not crossed it) and it can put people off. As time goes on and we discuss various details, simplify the message and people will 'get it'.

 

[63AvantiR3]

American Iron (AI) / American Iron Extreme (AIX) Series​

NASA (National Auto Sport Association)​

This is a real life series. http://www.nasaproracing.com/proracing/ai.html
. . .
Some Questions For Those That Are Interested
1. Are you interested based on the above outline?
2. Should non-American cars be allowed?
3. Should 2 seat cars be allowed?
4. Should different layouts (FF, MR, 4WD, RR) be allowed?
5. Comments relative to TCS / ASM?
6. Comments relative to proposed tires (for both AI and AIX)?
7. Should the same car be used for both AI / AIX events?
8. Comments relative to the horsepower modification chart.
9. Comments relative to race format?
10. Comments relative to track selection?
11. Should “difficulty” points be awarded?
12. Should the bottom of the field be allowed to “qualify”?
13. This series could easily be converted to a 4WD drive series. Different cars obviously with the same rules. We’d have Skylines, Imprezas and Evo’s…Oh my! I’d call that version of this series “World 4 Play” (all 4WDs of the world) or “Samurai Showdown” (just the Japanese ones). Would that be a more attractive series?
14. Any other comments?
. . .

1) Yes, interested. I believe more people are too.
2) No. Not in my opinion anyway.
3) Not unless you allow exceptions. See 14.
4) No.
5) Illegal. Unless you want to implement it in the AIX format?
6) We'll work on that. http://americanironracing.com/gallery/p17_sectionid/2/p17_imageid/34
I was going to try and take Guy Cunningham's car around Sears Point myself ... But Polyphony Digital left out one majorly popular car: the fox chassis (1979-1993) Ford Mustang 5L (heck, even the 4 cylinder and SVO models). Both the LX and GT with the 302 are potent and highly modifiable in the aftermarket world. The Griggs Racing LX Mustang that Guy Cunningham drives is a very capable machine. I wanted to get as close to his time as possible with the different tire compounds to see which would net the closest result. I suppose I could modify the IROC-Z and get back to you.
7) Provided the car can crossover. Ex: My friend has two 1985 RX-7s. One is built for NASA Pro7 and the other is built for SCCA ITA specifications. Same frame and body, very different pieces and different rule sets. It would be very hard to convert one car for dual duty.
8) I think you're on the right track there. Either upgrade the flywheel and/or driveshaft and keep HP lower, or don't upgrade the drivetrain and raise HP slightly.
9) Works for me.
10) I vote for: Sears Point, Seattle, Laguna Seca, and El Capitan. Others you're free to add yourself.
11) Up to you. First find out what kind of field, size wise, you'll be playing with.
12) Qualifying sounds like it would be a fair idea. I presume the idea is to keep the scores close? Trans-Am does it where the whole field qualifies and the top 5 get inverted. The car that qualified 5th, now gets the pole. 4th and 2nd swap, and the pole setter starts in 5th. In this case, the car that qualifies 3rd doesn't do anything as the 4 around it flip.
13) I'd keep it only FR for now. There are enough cars to choose from.
14) Real American Iron rules call for a solid rear axle only. You're good so far with the cars you have chosen. The solid rear axle rule is there so cars like the Viper and Corvette can't enter. Actually, pre-1963 Corvettes do have a sold rear axle. You could allow the 1954 Corvette in if you like? It's a two-seater, so ultimately it'll be up to you if you allow the exception to the rule. It may be a two-seater, but it's an inline-six engine, so it lacks where the others have more torque.

 

[eatsviper4lunch]

Thanks for answering my questions Goix. I wouldn't worry about 'it dying a natural death'; there is somewhat of a glut of series at the moment, but it wasn't that long ago and there were virtually none except for the JGTC.

Geez, what have I created...it's now a real monster spreading all over the place. Oh god why, why little baby jesus?

Joke aside, all of you good luck with your series guys. 👍

 

[darkwind]

I don't think Darkwind has firmed anytihng up yet

The only official thing on my series right now is the rules and info. I'm revamping the car list so more testing. Most of the original cars are still included, but theres also a few cars I've been missing.

So Goix' you've got a lot of time. I won't launch until sometime after the new year(I'm taking Thanksgiving and Christmas break to finalize testing). Jetboys isn't launching til Feb(?), with the end of the AMC, some drivers will get freed up, but sometime around the end of a series is a good time to get it started up... Or maybe wait a week or two and let everyone get some rest(we all know how much of a toll these videogames take on us! ).

 

[goixoye]

The bit of renewed interest has likewise sparked my interest again (I thought this had died so I put it out of my mind). As a result, for whatever reason, I raced an AI prepped SVT Mustang at the El Capitan enduro (about 2 hours and 10 min of racing) . A 200 pt race! When I started I just wanted to run one or 2 pit sequences to check competitiveness, but when I saw the 200 pt value I had to try to win. You get $250,000, and the Minolta. I won rather easily. I made two big mistakes, one each in the 1st two pit sequences that brought the 2nd place car back even with me. Prior to his last pit the 2nd place car was about 10s behind. Because of the S1 tire life I was able to pit 4 times. The 2nd place car pitted 5 times. So at the last split he was 30 to 40s behind before I crossed the line. The car was the Lotus Motor Sport Elise. It was interesting how he would claw his way back close after each pit (I guess he had S2 tires?). With a 5th pit and maybe just one more driver error incident I would’ve been fighting hard for the victory. As a result I have decided to change the venue / format a bit.

Revised Venue / Format

Week 1 AI Qualifier - All competitors use the same car with the same mods
Week 2 AIX Qualifier - All competitors use the same car with the same mods

(Week 1 & 2 cars and tracks decided by vote. Week 2 track will be the reverse of Week 1.)

Week 3 AI Event 1 - Extreme Hall, PD Cup, Events 1 - 5 – Driver Car Choice
Motegi Road - 6 Laps
Seattle (Rev) - 7 Laps
Infineon - 8 Laps
Tokyo (Rev) - 5 Laps
Fuji, 2005 - 6 Laps

Week 4 AI Event 2 - Extreme Hall, PD Cup, Events 6 - 10 – Driver Car Choice – Car Change Option 1
Motorland Reverse - 19 Laps
Sarthe I - 2 Laps
El Capitan (Rev) - 6 Laps
Suzuka - 5 Laps
Nurburgring - 2 Laps

Week 5 AIX Event 1 - Professional Hall, Tuning Car Grad Prix, Events 1 – 5 (all of them)
Apricot Hill (Rev) - 3 Laps
Fuji, 90's - 3 Laps
Tokyo - 2 Laps
El Capitan (Rev) 3 Laps
Tsukuba - 5 Laps

Week 6 AI Event 3 – Endurance Hall – El Capitan, 200 Miles (66 Laps) – Car Change Option 2
Week 7 AIX Event 2 – Sarthe II, Family Cup – this lets you top out your “Iron” while not being as boring as Test Curse. With a difficulty setting of 10 it gave me a 137 pt race (Mustang SVT). Got to draft a Nardo down the straight, 218+mph!

Week 8 AI Finale – Car Change Option 3
Week 9 AIX Finale

(Week 8 & 9 track decided by vote. Week 9 track will be the reverse of Week 8. You choose the car.)

I thought this revised format would offer a little bit of everything competition wise.

**The New York and Laguna Seca Enduro events may be an option to the El Capitan Enduro...any thoughts? El Capitan may be overdone in this series? At least the Enduro is forward (I think), the opposite of the PD Cup and Tuner Grand Prix races.**

The car change options force you to use the same car for both AI and AIX events. You could either have separate cars or just use the different set-up tabs (A, B or C). For the SVT the same car could be used for both. I guess it just depends on how the weight reductions work out as well as if you choose Port / Polish and Engine Balancing as part of you HP mod package and it won't work for the AI or AIX specs.

Points
NASCAR style.

Bonus Points.
1. If you elect to stay with the same car at a “Car Change Option” Week you receive 50 bonus points. This could results in up to 150 bonus points.
2. In the events with on-track competition you get the A-Spec points noted at the beginning of the race for each event or sub event (could be 200 pts. x 5 = 1000 pts. each for Weeks 3, 4 and 5. This is a means of rewarding those that select a higher difficulty. I think these should be awarded whether you actually win or lose the race. But I’d like a little input.
3. I’m thinking of “seeding” the field of cars from top to bottom and awarding bonus points per race based on the relative strength of the car. Probably something like a 5 point difference all the way down.

I’m not sure if Points and Bonus Points should be totaled to determine the “Champion”. My initial thought is to have a Champion based on only the Points. And possibly a 2nd individual being the Bonus Points “Champion” and then finally (possibly a 3rd individual) a combined points “Champion”. I’d appreciate a little input.

Qualifying
For Weeks 3, 4 and 5 (and 6 and 7 if those events offer qualifying) the lower 1/3 of the field gets to qualify for races. However, I don’t want this to give somebody too much of an advantage, so…. You can qualify for the 1st race. If you win the 1st race you cannot qualify for the 2nd race but if you lose the 1st race you can qualify for the 2nd race. Basically you cannot qualify for any race if you won the preceding race. I expect most of us will be able to win all the races in these events. If that’s the case then the only race you would be able to qualify for would be the 1st one. So you get a one race qualifying advantage. This would apply to the lower 1/3 from the preceding week as well as anybody in the lower 3rd of the overall standings.

Number of “Attempts” of Events
Week 1,2, 7, 8, 9 - Unlimited
Week 3, 4, 5 and 6 – 2 Only….the first one intended for discussion purposes. You can discuss all times (including lap times) except the final time. You can also discuss your practice times, lap times and all. Weeks 3, 4 and 5 must be run consecutively (as would be done in the GT mode “championship”). If you want to “start” a race to see the A-spec points and then exit out to get a higher or lower point value that doesn’t count as an “Attempt”. But once you actually start the series you’re locked in. Even though there are 5 events each for Weeks 3, 4 and 5 with just 2 “Attemps” each I don’t think it will result in a time burden.…we all spend more time than that now on events and it is almost impossible to truly practice for these events anyway because of tire wear…unless you do the practicing in “Practice” (qualifying). For those not allowed to “qualify” you could just qualify and then exit out without running the race or it seems that if you run the “qualifying” long enough the computer drivers tires warm up and they put down some pretty good laps…they might even knock you back in the field. Practice could also be done in a time trial mode (no tire wear) or in Family Cup. You cannot practice an actual race individually.

If this continues to generate interest I’ll post an “Interest Check – Stage 2” with a cleaned up outline.

 

[Kolyana]

Change the title and get rid of the "world 4 play" bit (now the series is taking a direction).

Bonus Points:
There's something about giving out a-spec points for not winning that doesn't sit right with me, but I prefer your controlled method of 'seeding' the bonus according to the difficulty selected (this is a daft question, but you can select difficulty in the Events selected?)

I think having 2 champions is ... bleh ... give bonus points, but they should not override the race points. So if you get 25 for winning, say, bonus points shouldn't be '200' ... that's out of balance. IMHO, 25 for a win and a total of (say) 10 obtainable as bonuses would be a better approach. Plus, bonuses are open to everyone and you may find that it's the actual racing where the true difference in points comes to the for ... so this should be the main emphasis.

Incidentally, I wonder if it's possible to record all lap times and give out a nascar-like bonus for the fastest lap or most laps lead?

I like the qualifying angle.

Number of attempts:
How are you going to enforce this?
"You cannot practice an actual race individually." Again, how are you going to enforce this?

 

[Eric.]

I'm pretty interested. You could put me down for the 2000 Camaro SS. 👍

I think the horsepower/efficiency adjustment should be dumped, though. Good idea, but I think its a little too complicated.

As for the cars, I don't think the IROC-Z should be allowed because it is a concept. The rest looks pretty good. When it comes to the AWD or whatever else, it would be interesting to have another class. That may be too much trouble though, so it may be better to stick with the sedans.

I think cars should go by the following modifications:

Exhaust:
Any

Brakes:
Racing

Engine:

Any NA
Port polish
Balancing

Drivetrain:

1, 1.5, or 2 way LSD, no racing LSD
All other transmission parts: racing

Turbo:

No superchargers
Any turbo (GNX?)

Suspension:

Sports or Semi-Racing

Tires:

Whatever you tell us to use

Other:

Chassis refresh
Rigidity Increase (roll cage)
Any weight reduction (must go by weight rules)



Those are the parts that should be available, but you can't get them all. You'll have to go by the PW Ratio still.

Could cars be reduced below the minimum weight and then adjusted to it exactly with ballast? Say the minimum weight with the power of my Camaro is 1318kg, I lighten it to 1200kg, then add 118kg of ballast? (I made those numbers up, I have no clue if they are even close )

Feedback is appreciated. If you need any help please PM me.

 

[goixoye]

1, 1.5, or 2 way LSD, no racing LSD

Suspension:
Sports or Semi-Racing

Could cars be reduced below the minimum weight and then adjusted to it exactly with ballast? Say the minimum weight with the power of my Camaro is 1318kg, I lighten it to 1200kg, then add 118kg of ballast? (I made those numbers up, I have no clue if they are even close )

Feedback is appreciated. If you need any help please PM me.

Why do you think no racing LSD and why no full custom suspension?

As long as you meet the weight requirements I don't have a problem with manipulation of the ballast

 

[goixoye]

Change the title and get rid of the "world 4 play" bit (now the series is taking a direction).

Bonus Points:
There's something about giving out a-spec points for not winning that doesn't sit right with me, but I prefer your controlled method of 'seeding' the bonus according to the difficulty selected (this is a daft question, but you can select difficulty in the Events selected?)

I think having 2 champions is ... bleh ... give bonus points, but they should not override the race points. So if you get 25 for winning, say, bonus points shouldn't be '200' ... that's out of balance. IMHO, 25 for a win and a total of (say) 10 obtainable as bonuses would be a better approach. Plus, bonuses are open to everyone and you may find that it's the actual racing where the true difference in points comes to the for ... so this should be the main emphasis.

Incidentally, I wonder if it's possible to record all lap times and give out a nascar-like bonus for the fastest lap or most laps lead?

I like the qualifying angle.

Number of attempts:
How are you going to enforce this?
"You cannot practice an actual race individually." Again, how are you going to enforce this?

Relative to the bonus points for not winning. My thought was suppose someone ran a 200 pt race and lost and someone ran a 50 pt race and won. Who deserves more points? I want to encourage selecting the stongest computer opposition. Maybe if you don't win you should receive some percentage of the A-spec points based on where you do finish....but would that make this too complicated?

You can, to a certain extent, choose the difficulty level. You can enter a race and check out the field. if you're not sure you can start the race to see the A-spec pt value. You can exit out and re-enter the race, usually the field changes and the A-spec value changes accordingly too. It's not as easy as selecting the difficulty in Family Cup or Arcade Mode but it can be done.

I want the person who has the best times to be named "Champion" but I also wanted some recognition for people who chose more difficult races, etc. I thought that might give a lesser skilled driver a means of actually winning or being named "Champion" on some level. Getting smacked around all the time by the great drivers in the GTP world stops being fun after awhile. A good driver is one who performs the best against the best opposition and I think drivers should be rewarded/acknowledged for that. We'll all be driving cars with basically equal HP & weights which means we should all have the same A-spec opportunities. This will make us select the hardest computer competition just to make sure you get the maximum available A-spec bonus points so noone gets that bonus advantage on you.

I believe NASCAR points start at 170 for winning (a 5 point bonus for leading a lap and a 5 point bonus for the driver who leads the most laps). For our purposes we wouldn't use these lap bonuses. Just the basic points system. I'll verify the scale.

You're right about enforcement issues but most of these series are on an honor system. Even with replays only so much information is available. In AMC someone could use anything except parts that effect HP, wt or tires and nobody would know it even if replay submission was required.

 

[Eric.]

Why do you think no racing LSD and why no full custom suspension?

As long as you meet the weight requirements I don't have a problem with manipulation of the ballast

I guess they could be done. I was just thinking of having them with somewhat limited modifications. Maybe AIX could have the racing parts, AI just up to semi.


I'd be interested in helping you run this, in the event it becomes too complicated. Or I could possibly handle the times for another class if we added it. If there aren't too many OLRs going on after this is finished we could do it with other groups of cars. It seems like a pretty good layout.

 

[goixoye]

I'd be interested in helping you run this, in the event it becomes too complicated. Or I could possibly handle the times for another class if we added it. If there aren't too many OLRs going on after this is finished we could do it with other groups of cars. It seems like a pretty good layout.

I'd love some help with the logistics and whatnot. I have absolutely no skills with leaderboards and the like and was just going to do manual ones and probably not do a provisional split time one either unless I can pick up that knowledge between now and the actual running of the series.

It looks like the initial running of this series will be just "American Iron". I've also all but decided that the whole drivetrain efficiency thing should be scrapped. For potential future series I think with cars of the HPs noted (390 / 560) the events will be competitive across most car layouts (FR, MR, AWD, FF - probably not many cars available with these HP levels?). I did minimal testing with the AWD cars but these regulations seemed to work pretty well for them too.

I've really done no work as of yet on car testing. So it would be real helpful if you could put a little time into ordering the field with an eye for "seeding" the field and possible bonus points for lower ranked cars. I was going to test using just the stock cars but it might be better to test in AI / AIX trim to make sure the results are consistent.

Thanks for your offer to help. The more input the better this series will be. I have some definite wants and don't wants but this is not intended to be for my personal glory. With good participation I expect (hopefully) a 5th to 10th place finish for myself. I'm really leaning toward full adjustablility for the cars in both categories. I have considered possible Arcade event(s) for AI (I don't think there's enough of a sliding scale to get the cars into the AIX level). This would allow those of us who aren't tuning gods to maybe sneak in a good finish for at least an event or so....any thoughts....maybe the last 2 currently proposed events could be run that way....I'm not sure about the arcade availability of these cars. Or maybe some events could be run with semi-racing parts with limited tweaking options?

 

[Eric.]

I'd love some help with the logistics and whatnot.

<snip>

I'll try to run some laps tomorrow. I could have today if my internet would have been working. It was down from at least 3:00pm to a couple minutes ago, 11:20pm.

Which two or three courses should I run to get a good result of which cars do best where?

 

[goixoye]

I'll try to run some laps tomorrow. I could have today if my internet would have been working. It was down from at least 3:00pm to a couple minutes ago, 11:20pm.

Which two or three courses should I run to get a good result of which cars do best where?

Pick any tracks you like...might as well be your favorites as long as it's not Test Curse or the Motegi Ring. If your going to do a few different courses pick some varied ones...maybe a city course, something with a long straight, and something???? Stay away fom any track you "hate".

 

[63AvantiR3]

goixoye: I have an Excel spreadsheet made up for you. I have two tabs, one is AI and the other is CMC. You'll notice that the CMC page has my lap times as tested. The times are recorded in seconds. Before you mentioned anything about building an A.I. series, I was working on all kinds of NASA (and assorted other) sanctioned series:

AI = American Iron (Like you're working on now)
BMW club of America = BMW owners organize track days
CMC = Camaro-Mustang Challenge
GTI Cup = All 1st generation Golfs/Rabbits built to a specification
Spec Miata= Exactly as it sounds, Miatas equally prepared
VVC = Vette-Viper Challenge
I have other series in mind, I just haven't purchased and started modifying the cars yet. Ex. NASA hosts Honda Challenge in classes of: H1, H2, H3, H4 and H5. How many Honda/Acura cars are in GT4 that would be eligible for any of those groups? HC is going to take me a long time to build up.

I can tell you right now that RA-1 tires would more closely relate to Sports -> Soft. The best time I got with my CMC prepared IROC-Z at Sears Point on ...
S3 Tires = 1'44.298
R1 Tires = 1'40.227
R2 Tires = 1'39.918

The best time my B-Spec driver got in the same IROC-Z on ...
S3 Tires = 1'47.419
I did not tell him to drive with the slicks.
The slowest best time my B-Spec driver attained on S3 Tires = 1'48.098. That was in a CMC 2000 Camaro SS. By comparison, I turned a 1'44.845 in that 2000 Camaro SS.

Keep in mind that these times are set with my CMC prepared Camaros. In CMC the rules limit you to -0.5° of rear camber; AI allows more camber. CMC power to weight ratio is 9.2:1, AI carries more weight at 9.5:1 HP and 9.0:1 TQ. I may have run faster than Guy Cunningham's record 1'49.991 at Sears Point, but the differences in the two series helped me there. I ran with slightly more power, less weight, and fewer degrees of rear camber. The fewer degrees of rear camber helped keep the power to the pavement (provided I could gently apply the throttle). Cornering speeds get reduced due to less rear camber, but the lighter weight of the CMC car fights that.

If you have other questions regarding my spreadsheets, feel free to ask.

 

[goixoye]

Thanks for the input. I'll check out your spreadsheet tomorrow...I don't have excel on the home computer...and then get back to you.

 

[goixoye]

Avanti,

Somewhere in the GTP world I found a thread discussing tires. The information there indicated that S1 tires may better represent the tire used by AI. Your time with S3's is still a little quick compared to Guy Cunningham's time...but you indicated that was likely because of the CMC test car used. We probably should test based on AI specs.

I am a little concerned about changing tires at this stage. My preliminary testing (AI=S1, AIX=S3) indicated competitive races againt the computer competition for the events indicated (I revised the venue in a recent post but have not updated the initial post). Those events may need to be tossed if the tires are changed...I only changed to S3's for AIX because for the GT mode, Professional Hall, Tuner Grand Prix they created a competitive race...I was originally going to use S1's on both AI & AIX cars because I really wasn't sure what NASA's rules allowed / required for AIX. I'd rather not have to find suitable venue replacements (I don't think they exist, at least in GT mode) but for the sake of realism I could see what I might be able to come up with....I really want at least some of the events to have on-track competition.

What did you use for TCS & ASM when running your test laps? What is you B-spec rating? Mine is 9200 and my driver sucks with TCS/ASM=0 so I wasn't sure how valuable his results really were.

Some questions about your spreadsheets....and please forgive my ignorance.

I assume by "open" it means any option/mod available in GT4 is acceptable?
How does ABS brakes apply to GT4? ASM=Active Stability Management? Which is not quite equal to ABS?

AI: Synchros Only Tranny - what tranny does this mean in GT4? I think GT4 offers "Close", "Super Close" and "Full Custom"?
AI: Ride Height: Is this min or max or what the setting is period?
AI: Nothing noted about LSD

AIX: Ride Height: Is this min or max or what the setting is period?
AIX: Nothing noted about LSD
AIX: DOT Tires????

Thanks,
Ronny

 

[63AvantiR3]

Somewhere in the GTP world I found a thread discussing tires. The information there indicated that S1 tires may better represent the tire used by AI. Your time with S3's is still a little quick compared to Guy Cunningham's time...but you indicated that was likely because of the CMC test car used.

Since I have personal experience with RA-1 tires I was shooting for the 'sticky' aspect of them. The more I get into Gran Turismo 4, the more it absolutely pisses me off. Here we have a racing game, quote The Real Driving Simulator end quote, and they leave out key details. I say tires like: Toyo Proxes T1S, Toyo Proxes T1R, Falken Azenis RT215, Falken Azenis RT615, and Yokohama's lineup of Advan tires would be more closely related to the Hard and Medium Sports tires while RA-1 tires would be more closely related to the Soft Sports. The Proxes and Azenis don't get gummy whereas RA-1 tires will actually gum and "ball up" little marbles of rubber just as a racing slick does. P.D. needs a set of filler tires between S3 and R1. I'd call them an X compound (X1, X2, X3) as in auto-X because that's where tires like those Falkens perform well.

We probably should test based on AI specs.

Agreed. I'll build up an IROC to AI specification. I already had one built to CMC specs. and used it because it was quicker to test that car than it was to earn another IROC and build it for AI duty. I'll do some saving and loading with my Sharkport and build it up for American Iron.

I am a little concerned about changing tires at this stage. My preliminary testing (AI=S1, AIX=S3) indicated competitive races againt the computer competition for the events indicated (I revised the venue in a recent post but have not updated the initial post). Those events may need to be tossed if the tires are changed...I only changed to S3's for AIX because for the GT mode, Professional Hall, Tuner Grand Prix they created a competitive race...I was originally going to use S1's on both AI & AIX cars because I really wasn't sure what NASA's rules allowed / required for AIX.

You know what you could do, competition on track aside... use the tires as a leveling agent. Slower drivers could receive S3s or R1s (or R2s) and the faster drivers get stuck with S1 and S2 tires. That's only a thought.

What did you use for TCS & ASM when running your test laps? What is you B-spec rating? Mine is 9200 and my driver sucks with TCS/ASM=0 so I wasn't sure how valuable his results really were.

I leave TCS and ASM turned off. My B-Spec driver is at 6055 and does alright without the traction and stability aids on a setting of 4. I have tested all of my CMC cars, but what I did was I turned off the PS2 without saving after B-Spec Bob was done with one car so his ratings were exactly the same if I just let him do the same number of laps.

I assume by "open" it means any option/mod available in GT4 is acceptable? How does ABS brakes apply to GT4? ASM=Active Stability Management? Which is not quite equal to ABS?

You presume correctly. Open in that context means unrestricted. As far as ABS, I was going to use brake proportioning as ABS. If you notice, the higher the setting of the brake proportioning valve, the more the brakes sound like they are pulsing.

AI: Synchros Only Tranny - what tranny does this mean in GT4? I think GT4 offers "Close", "Super Close" and "Full Custom"?

The synchros comment means that only the synchros may be modified. As far as American Iron is concerned, leave the stock transmission.

AI: Ride Height: Is this min or max or what the setting is period?
AI: Nothing noted about LSD
AIX: Ride Height: Is this min or max or what the setting is period?
AIX: Nothing noted about LSD
AIX: DOT Tires????

The ride heights listed are the minimum. Limited-slip for both AI and AIX is open. The rules only talk about the materials that the gear carrier is made of. DOT tires would be tires that are approved to drive on the street. Basically, no slicks. As sticky as they are, Proxes RA-1 tires are still DOT approved, they just don't last long on the street.
No problem Ronny.
-Geoff

 

[goixoye]

Geoff,

So let me summarize and see if I've read everything correctly. The following would be your recommended changes to the rules.

S3's on Both AI / AIX? -- pending testing.
NO transmission mod allowed for AI (but is allowed for AIX)
Ride Height minimum AI = 127mm, AIX =102mm

What have I overlooked?

I did notice in an earlier post you noted that TCS/ASM is "illegal" unless I wanted to implement it in the AIX format? Does real life AIX allow TCS/ASM?

Ronny

 

[goixoye]

I've just noticed a problem with some of the cars' initial HP being above the AI limit of 390HP (Chevelle, Super Bee and Superbird). Additionally some of the cars' initial HP is high enough that an oil change may put them over that limit also (Charger R/T, Cuda, 2004 GTO). I need to get all the proposed cars in my garage and change the oil and see their revised HPs. Throws a bit of a wrench into things...but I'll come up with something.