Intransigent understeer: noob tuning or inherent problem?

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ZeroG

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I'm a tuner of modest skills and have noticed on a few different cars what seems like recalcitrant understeer. I fiddle with the settings I'm aware of in attempts to fix the problem (raise and/or stiffen rear, toe, camber, LSD, downforce), but to no real avail. Even looking at the tire load indicator doesn't illuminate. It feels like there's some centripetal imp keeping the back end in on deceleration. It seems, oddly, to actually tighten the turn a bit if I get on the throttle gently. It stands to reason that variables affecting performance exist in addition to the ones we can see and change, else variation in performance between cars would not exist. I know this is a hard question to answer into a hazy unknown of inquiry, but is it me or are some cars, even putatively nimble race cars, just intractable in GT5 (v2.1)?
 
No offense meant, but :) are you using a translator ?

Some of your words/wording make what your trying to say unclear. eg I dont understand what putatively or intractable mean.

The driving sensation you describe sounds like the LSD, but I couldnt say for sure ofcourse.
 
Hard to know how to phrase things, I guess. Too casual and I might seem like a doofus who couldn't get the nuance of tuning either and then people would skip the thread. Anyways, no translator. Just a reasonably thoughtful dude who doesn't understand why some cars persist in sucking.
 
I was very confused reading this...I know what your getting at but wow that was tough :/
 
bigberry
No worries I think youve went too far the other way, University Challenge contestant rather than a doofus :D
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Rocket scientists can be some of the dumbest people.:lol:

For the OP I'd say look at some of the tunes in this forum for cars your having issues with and see what those tuners have used. Try a few out to see if they drive closer to what you want/expect and then try applying your own tweaks to those setups to get the best performance for yourself.

Some of the cars do work a bit better than others, and some are harder to tune but there isn't any totally broken cars that can't have their performance enhanced.
 
Have tried, thanks. Not broken, necessarily, but like the back end is nailed down and neither trailbraking nor engine braking seems to tease it out. And nothing in settings seems to get even near the edge of balanced handling.
 
ZeroG
I'm a tuner of modest skills and have noticed on a few different cars what seems like recalcitrant understeer. I fiddle with the settings I'm aware of in attempts to fix the problem (raise and/or stiffen rear, toe, camber, LSD, downforce), but to no real avail. Even looking at the tire load indicator doesn't illuminate. It feels like there's some centripetal imp keeping the back end in on deceleration. It seems, oddly, to actually tighten the turn a bit if I get on the throttle gently. It stands to reason that variables affecting performance exist in addition to the ones we can see and change, else variation in performance between cars would not exist. I know this is a hard question to answer into a hazy unknown of inquiry, but is it me or are some cars, even putatively nimble race cars, just intractable in GT5 (v2.1)?
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In short: Yes, some cars are just pigs. Which cars can't be fixed is up for debate, but FF and AWD drivetrains are highly susceptible. Study others and test extremes.

In long: It being highly dependent upon one's perception of what should be listed amongst the more nimble race cars, then by all means, it is not "just you". However, some well-greased porcine specimens are surprisingly fleet of trotter.

I cannot help but note that you did not mention brake balance; while it is far from an immediate panacea, it certainly does help bring weight transfer into the equation more quickly. For additional mirth, try turning ABS off for a time.

Neither did you mention your control method - for example, the DS3 is woeful at very high-speed direction changes (e.g., Ea Rouge), due to the inherent so-called "assist" involved in modulating your input based on speed and/or maximum slip angle. I'm stuck with it, personally.

Driving style is inevitably a factor. Some of the tuners, or shootout events, list lap times, sometimes by drivers of varying skill levels or control methods. Replicating said times without succumbing to the urge to tweak might be a useful way of understanding what driving style a car or tune demands in a given context.

As others have recommended, I would study tuners of repute, and do so differentially (and indeed deferentially) - perhaps in this manner the accursed centripetal imp you lament may be exorcised, or at least bribed to look the other way on occasion.

I am also unaccountably fond of paragraph breaks.
 
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OK, I would recommend making the front anti-roll bar less stiff, lowering the front spring rates, adding front camber, and reducing rear camber. Also fiddle with the LSD. What kinds of cars are you tuning, anyway? Rear wheel drive cars will respond best to this, while front wheel drive cars are trickier. Four wheel drive cars respond best to a lot of differential fine tuning.
 
Interesting. That car, or at least its twin, I found very stiff, despite the size and wheelbase. I tended to turn it with the gears too much, with my own limited skills.

The ABS comment was mostly with regard to quick experimentation and tuning balance, rather than how to drive regularly. The game ABS does a bit more than just avoid lock.

You might find these other tunes useful:

Praiano

CSL

This latter is given context by examining WRS 28; links to the main and results threads are in there (the results thread showed who used which car, and what they thought of the cars, to some extent). There's also replays, and a video or three.

I didn't feel the other cars were out-and-out faster; feel was definitely different, though.
 
ZeroG
Yup, addressed all these, except turning off ABS, I guess. Been tuning FR & MR racers, most recently the Astra. Tried this tune, FWIW:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=149861

It's feeling like some cars just can't be tweaked to right.
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Based on the tune that is linked, and the problem (I think) you're describing, my first recommendations would be the following:
LSD DeAccel setting is too high.
Rear Downforce is too high.
Front ride height is too low. (or rear too high; your choice, either way, get the car level and see how it feels)
Rear toe could be brought down into the negatives.

Now, depending on where, when and how the understeer is occurring for you, can impact which of the above will be most effective, but the only legible issue you explained, was that the understeer gets worse on acceleration. So you could try slowing down the weight transfer front to rear, by stiffening the compression of the rear shocks. I won't go into that any further, due to the few different theories of how shocks do, or don't, work, so I'll let you decide for yourself.

But that's where I would start, for what I was able to decipher from your post. If you want more specific help, you'll have to be more specific with what's happening, where it happens, how bad it is, what part of the turn, type of camber the corner possesses, on throttle, off throttle, coasting, etc etc. The more information you give, the better the responses will be.
 
I tried out CSL's settings (thx), sans tranny, and perhaps it's the best basis for examination (I'll check out other settings as possible). I still noticed that the car is very stiff, as mentioned, as well as having the mild tendency to behave better under power, I would say, based on my limited observations. I'd certainly be interested in hearing refinements for the Astra, and appreciate the pointer to Praiano for further input, but I'm also curious what this car represents as far as general limitations within the game. If CSL's settings represent the near peak of possible performance, then I can at least stop worrying that I'm missing something obvious.

I should clarify that actually I observed that understeer decreased a bit under power, even gentle power (avoiding power oversteer, I believe), which seems weird. About as weird, I guess, as what seem to be signs of ye olde front/rear settings reversal in CSL's settings, if I'm not mistaken?
 
ZeroG
I tried out CSL's settings (thx), sans tranny, and perhaps it's the best basis for examination (I'll check out other settings as possible). I still noticed that the car is very stiff, as mentioned, as well as having the mild tendency to behave better under power, I would say, based on my limited observations. I'd certainly be interested in hearing refinements for the Astra, and appreciate the pointer to Praiano for further input, but I'm also curious what this car represents as far as general limitations within the game. If CSL's settings represent the near peak of possible performance, then I can at least stop worrying that I'm missing something obvious.

I should clarify that actually I observed that understeer decreased a bit under power, even gentle power (avoiding power oversteer, I believe), which seems weird. About as weird, I guess, as what seem to be signs of ye olde front/rear settings reversal in CSL's settings, if I'm not mistaken?
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CSL did not run that week, and put the three tunes up as base tunes; I suspect those three setups were to get the cars within the ballpark for comparison, so not necessarily near peak yet.

Use of Ye Olde Reverse Rake is fairly prevalent in WRS tuning weeks where the ride is perceived to be pushing, for better or worse. Make of that what you will, but be aware that if you want to run *online*, you'd better test there first....
 
Acknowledged, thx.

Speaking of weird, BTW, the rear wing setting keeps reverting to the default 45 as I switch between settings sheets...
 
Also, even with the most power upgrades, Turbo 3, I can only get to about 575 hp, not close to the 631 hp listed in Praiano's settings. And the tranny slider range doesn't go high enough to reach the settings listed for 5th and 6th gear. And the game hung on me. But after restart, I confirmed the same settings problems in the Opel as I have with the Vauxhall. I think my head is going to explode, but at least for different reasons now.
 
The similarity between the Opel Astra (Team Phoenix) and the Vauxhall Astra Super Touring ends at their maximum built-out power available, IIRC.

I am nowhere near a PS3 right now to check, but I suspect one will have different Engine Stage specs.

Tuning parts that increase maximum RPM (including but not limited to Engine Stages, ECU, and Exhausts) do affect the available gear ratios. Praiano also helpfully includes a more graphical method in this case.
 
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ZeroG
Also, even with the most power upgrades, Turbo 3, I can only get to about 575 hp, not close to the 631 hp listed in Praiano's settings. And the tranny slider range doesn't go high enough to reach the settings listed for 5th and 6th gear. And the game hung on me. But after restart, I confirmed the same settings problems in the Opel as I have with the Vauxhall. I think my head is going to explode, but at least for different reasons now.
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My car have the engine 3 tuning stage, normal that ratios does not match.
Put some ice on your head and take it easy. This is the best part to let the car the way you want to. Drive and test some settings till you feel comfortable with it.
Good luck.
 
Right, that would explain the max power and probably the slider ranges. I guess I need to take a break...

The rear wing defaulting seems to be happening on other cars, too. Has anyone else seen this?

^ Thanks, good advice!
 
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Yup.

I have no idea to what extent awareness of that bug has reached the general populace, though.

Good luck.
 
ZeroG
Also, even with the most power upgrades, Turbo 3, I can only get to about 575 hp, not close to the 631 hp listed in Praiano's settings. And the tranny slider range doesn't go high enough to reach the settings listed for 5th and 6th gear. And the game hung on me. But after restart, I confirmed the same settings problems in the Opel as I have with the Vauxhall. I think my head is going to explode, but at least for different reasons now.
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Mine also has 631...
 

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