Is Downloading Free MP3 Songs Illegal?

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99 cents a song is usually far cheaper than nearly all CDs on sale today.

No it's not, iTunes screws the hell out of you if you buy songs from them.

Just as one example, I recently bought Mothership which has 24 songs on two CD's for a whole $11.99 + 6% sales tax at Best buy (so $12.71). The same CD at $.99 a song would have cost $23.76, almost double the price at the store.

To throw another example out there, I also recently bought In Search of Sunrise by Tiesto for $12.99 at Best Buy ($13.77 with tax) and it has a whopping 28 tracks on it, meaning $27.72 if I were to buy it on iTunes, which is more then double.

A majority of CD's cost between $9.99 and $12.99 at Best Buy and typically have between 10-15 tracks on them. Even if it is cheaper to buy on iTunes for some of them you are still getting a better quality product by actually getting the CD itself. And if you don't feel like buy from Best Buy or other retail store, Amazon.com will typically ship you your CD free of charge within 3 days of you buying it from them.

iTunes is garbage, it's just a way for a company to scam more money out of you, same thing goes for Zune software, Napster, etc. Although with the Zune software it's like $15.99 a month for unlimited downloads or something, I'm not a 100% sure as I don't buy music from them.

You know if these music companies quit overcharging for their products we'd probably have less illegal downloading.
 
No it's not, iTunes screws the hell out of you if you buy songs from them.
The value in iTunes doesn't come in the purchase of a whole CD. The value comes in getting the two or three songs you want and not having to pay for the rest of the crap. So, say I want to buy the CD of some new pop artist because they love the new single. It's actually a good song. They listen to some streaming samples of the entire CD online (Amazon does this) and realize they really only like three songs. Buying the CD will cost $9.99 at the cheapest, probably more as it is pop. Buying just the songs they want from a digital music service will cost them $2.98.

Just as one example, I recently bought Mothership which has 24 songs on two CD's for a whole $11.99 + 6% sales tax at Best buy (so $12.71). The same CD at $.99 a song would have cost $23.76, almost double the price at the store.
Led Zeppelin, on a launch sale price at Best Buy no less, is a bad example. 1) Zeppelin fans want almost every song. 2) If you buy a whole album on iTunes they do not charge you $.99 per song. Most 12-15 song albums go for a flat rate of $9.99. Not being at home I don't know what iTunes charges for Mothership but as a two-disc set I would assume no more than $19.99, which is Best Buy's listed non-sale price.

iTunes is garbage, it's just a way for a company to scam more money out of you, same thing goes for Zune software, Napster, etc. Although with the Zune software it's like $15.99 a month for unlimited downloads or something, I'm not a 100% sure as I don't buy music from them.
iTunes has tons of benefits outside of the music industry as well, and I do not mean movies. I have only downloaded two songs from iTunes and those were free promotional songs through Pepsi. However, I do have a large number of free audiobook podcast subscriptions through iTunes. I just launch iTunes once a week and let it update all of them with the new episode(s). For those of us with large commutes iTunes provides a one-stop access to entertainment while driving. And yes, there are free music podcasts out there.

You know if these music companies quit overcharging for their products we'd probably have less illegal downloading.
If people quit paying for it they'd quit charging it. But as people just cough up the money then it can be argued that they are priced right, and some would argue that it is too cheap.

Plus, price decreases won't do a lot to stop piracy. I was in college when Napster first came out and I just started downloading everything that I would normally never listen to or pay for. The idea of legality never even crossed my mind. All I thought was that I had a convenient way to get access to music that I wouldn't pay to listen to but can be used on certain occasions. By the time I realized I was stealing, it was wrong, and it was illegal my PC had died and I didn't bother trying to retrieve the data on the hard drive. Moot point now as my illegally obtained music no longer exists.




Anyone that believes it is justified because of quality differences or because the industries are evil, or whatever arguments went on here last night, are fooling themselves. If it isn't specifically licensed to be a free download by the copyright owner then it is illegal to do so.
 
Led Zeppelin, on a launch sale price at Best Buy no less, is a bad example. 1) Zeppelin fans want almost every song. 2) If you buy a whole album on iTunes they do not charge you $.99 per song. Most 12-15 song albums go for a flat rate of $9.99. Not being at home I don't know what iTunes charges for Mothership but as a two-disc set I would assume no more than $19.99, which is Best Buy's listed non-sale price.

The non listed sale price at my local Best Buy was $14.99, which it is right now. And I gave the example of the Tiesto album as well to show a non-sale item. I could very well go on all day with different albums but you should see my point with only a few examples.

iTunes has tons of benefits outside of the music industry as well, and I do not mean movies. I have only downloaded two songs from iTunes and those were free promotional songs through Pepsi. However, I do have a large number of free audiobook podcast subscriptions through iTunes. I just launch iTunes once a week and let it update all of them with the new episode(s). For those of us with large commutes iTunes provides a one-stop access to entertainment while driving. And yes, there are free music podcasts out there.

I worked previously at an audiobook store so I can still rent them for free, but that's besides the point. Typically I go to the library and get them for free as well and just rip them onto my Zune and listen while I'm driving somewhere. I know there are free music podcasts, I get Tiesto's.

But I still say iTunes is garbage along with every other software that is like it.

If people quit paying for it they'd quit charging it. But as people just cough up the money then it can be argued that they are priced right, and some would argue that it is too cheap.

How are you not going to pay for it? iTunes screws you, the record companies selling you the CD screw you, and it's illegal to download them. How may I ask am I supposed to "support" an artist?

Plus, price decreases won't do a lot to stop piracy. I was in college when Napster first came out and I just started downloading everything that I would normally never listen to or pay for. The idea of legality never even crossed my mind. All I thought was that I had a convenient way to get access to music that I wouldn't pay to listen to but can be used on certain occasions. By the time I realized I was stealing, it was wrong, and it was illegal my PC had died and I didn't bother trying to retrieve the data on the hard drive. Moot point now as my illegally obtained music no longer exists.

Honestly I see nothing wrong with "illegally" downloading music, it's a victimless crime. There are worse things in the world people need to be focused on, like sex offenders and what not. Record companies aren't broke, musicians aren't broke, and electronic stores that sell music aren't broke either. It's a gray area. Plus didn't someone at some point have to buy that song or CD? And from my mom's business (she dealt with a lot of copyright laws as an embroider) I know that you can "legally" give something away that is technically copyrighted as long as you aren't charging for it and have the rights to use it. Like I said it's gray but if you look through the laws that's how it reads in Michigan at least.

Do I download things? Can't say, but I will say that I think there are more people on this site then not that do it. Especially TV shows. Go to the Top Gear thread and every American that saw the newest episode more then likely acquired it by downloading it...illegally.

**Oh and I should make a disclaimer that this is all purely my opinion so someone doesn't get a bug up the rear and claim I'm a terrible human being or something ridiculous like that.
 
Actually when you zip a file, it is analized and reorganized and usually packed smaller, because of that it loses no quality, when you un-zip the file it is resored to the original file. But also when it is zipped you can not recognize the data can you??

Well, you can. You just need something that will decode it on the fly, and the fact that zip is a lossless compression makes that somewhat cpu intensive.

When you compress the music, it still has to be playable, this is where most of the loss comes in. Some things have to be dropped and averaged due to the amount of data that the decoder must process.

That's entirely true. But the decoder does some unpacking on the fly - which enables a great deal of the files size reduction. So when you say 20% of the original file means 20% of the original quality, you're grossly mistaken. I think the only valid statement there is that it's not 100% of the original quality.

Joey D
Honestly I see nothing wrong with "illegally" downloading music, it's a victimless crime. There are worse things in the world people need to be focused on, like sex offenders and what not. Record companies aren't broke, musicians aren't broke, and electronic stores that sell music aren't broke either.

How does the fact that there are worse crimes, or that the victims are rich, make it a victimless crime? Just because you don't "feel" like it's stealing doesn't mean it isn't stealing. You're gaining access to an original work that is copyrighted and you're not paying for it. That's theft of intellectual property.
 
I worked previously at an audiobook store so I can still rent them for free, but that's besides the point. Typically I go to the library and get them for free as well and just rip them onto my Zune and listen while I'm driving somewhere.
Trust me, you are not getting the same thing I am, unless they somehow happen to have Scott Sigler, JC Hutchins, Mur Lafferty, Escape Pod short stories sci-fi, and Pseudopod short stories horror audiobooks. I doubt they have many of them as Scott Sigler has only been independently published in the last year and the short stories podcasts occasionally will do things from Asimov and Hugo Award winners, but it is mostly submitted works.

In other words, it gives me access to things not in the mainstream without having to jump from Web site to Web site to get them. And it also gave me access to a podcast format only Mercedes Lackey story.

And free music podcasts I refer to are more along the lines of thinsg that introduce small bands that don't even sell on Amazon.


How are you not going to pay for it? iTunes screws you, the record companies selling you the CD screw you, and it's illegal to download them. How may I ask am I supposed to "support" an artist?
1) If it is worth it to you to pay what the companies ask you to pay, just so you can access it, then it is not overpriced.
2) If you think buying the album in a store is teh way to support an artist I would hate to inform you that you have failed at that. They get about 2 cents of your $10. If you want to support them then go to their concerts and buy the CDs and shirts and stuff there. That is where the artists get all their money.

The few exceptions to this rule are the artists that pay to produce and marklet their own stuff either online or via CD. Hootie and teh Blowfish is an example of this. The bands putting stuff online on their Web site are going around the record companies and if you buy that from iTunes then you are supporting them.

Honestly I see nothing wrong with "illegally" downloading music, it's a victimless crime.
Danoff answered this well and I will just point out that I agree with him.
 
That's more subjective. A well encoded MP3 can sound very close to a CD to most ears.
 
I'm curious, what percentage of quality loss would you estimate??
How is this relevant to the argument on hand? Unless you are trying to say that it should not be illegal to download because you lose quality. In which case, I would ask where the line is drawn in this case because a CD is a quality loss from original recordings and even brand new records.

That's more subjective. A well encoded MP3 can sound very close to a CD to most ears.
Especially when you consider what many people listen to it on, such as headphones and tiny budget speakers.
 
I'm curious, what percentage of quality loss would you estimate??

This guy:

http://www.lincomatic.com/mp3/mp3quality.html

does a full up frequency analysis at different encoding rates and does blind listening tests on low and hi fidelity audio equipment. Here are his conclusions

Article
Conclusions

All in all, I was impressed by the quality of MP3's vs CD. Unlike the preconceived notions I had when I set out to do these tests, the 192Kbps MP3 was indeed "near CD quality." The degradation was indeed subtle, but noticeable. It is my belief, however, that on the HiFi setup the 192Kbps MP3 is more fatiguing to the ears during extended listening. Surprisingly, 256Kbps and 320Kbps MP3 were virtually indistinguishable by my ears from the CD, except for a light boost in the upper midrange and treble.

So what does this all mean? My feeling is that 192Kbps MP3 is more than adequate for listening with a computer or in a car. The distortion and lousy frequency response of the systems themselves (as well as the high ambient noise in a car) make the 192Kbps MP3 sound so similar to the original CD that the advantage of the smaller storage requirements of the MP3 far outweigh the sonic benefits of the CD. It's nice to have 5-6 audio CD's worth of music on a single MP3 CD - almost like having a CD changer in your hands. On the other hand, for critical listening on a HiFi, I feel that 256Kbps is the best bitrate to use, because it sounds significantly better than 192Kbps. Since I couldn't hear any improvement at all when going to up to 320Kbps, I don't recommend going this high for the simple reason that the file sizes are significantly larger.

MP3's ripped with BladeENC sound far better than I expected, and I believe that most listeners (except neurotic audiophiles those with extremely expensive equipment who claim that $800/meter speaker cables sound significantly better than my cheap but high quality 12 gauge stranded copper cables) would find that the difference in audio quality between the original CD's and 256Kbps MP3 is insignificant.

Update

Putting my controlled testing aside, for practical purposes, maybe it doesn't really matter if lower bitrate MP3's sound inferior to CD's. For casual listening (e.g. on PA systems, trashy built-in laptop speakers, or in noisy environments, such as in a convertible with the top down) 128Kbps is probably more than adequate. I have done some further informal tests with non-critical listeners, and they really don't notice (nor do they care about) the difference in audio quality between CD's and 128Kbps MP3's.

Sometimes, it is beneficial to put aside scientific/engineering mumbo jumbo, and instead analyze the cost/benefit ratio. Given a fixed amount of storage, one can store considerably twice as much music at 128Kbps than at 256Kbps. Before deciding what bitrate to use, analyze the target audience and listening environment, and then make a educated decision as to what bitrate is appropriate. 128Kbps has been chosen by many people because it's of sufficient quality for the vast majority of listeners. If you like to listen on a portable device with small storage, such as a 256MB flash-based MP3 player, you can fit more songs on the device if you use a lower bitrate. Anything lower than 128Kbps is unacceptable, IMHO. Personally, I will stick with 192Kbps for all but my most treasured pieces, which I will encode @ 256Kbps, but each to their own.

itunes uses 128kbps for 99cents or 256kbps for $1.3

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/02itunes.html

They also employ a variable bitrate algorithm to keep filesize low while preserving the original quality.

On a personal note, I tend to buy only heavily distorted music from itunes, and don't really care how accurate the end result is. If I were wanting to listen to a symphony on a high fidelity rig, I probably wouldn't have purchased the song from itunes.... but that doesn't represent the majority of my music purchases. But now that they offer 256kbps, maybe I would.
 
I need to ask something else. Is it illegal to use a song of a CD and load it onto a video, then put it on youtube!

Yes. And it's not a particularly difficult question to answer. You're taking a copyrighted work and making it available to the general public.

Now, if there were something special about the work - like that the copyright had been dropped, or the licensing of use was free or something to that effect, then it would be ok.
 
Can you explain that a bit more simpily, because it confused me slighty!

It's not really simple. There are million different ways something can be licensed. Even Radiohead's latest album, which they're offering at no cost, could have a license that says you can't offer it yourself - which would still make uploading it to youtube a nono.

The simple part is when the copyright is straightforward. You pay for it for personal use and that's it. That makes the answer easy.

There's also fair use. This video clears things up for fair use:



The safest thing is to assume that the work you're dealing with is like 99% of the copyrighted music out there - you pay for it, you use it personally. Uploading it to someplace where the public has access = no. Copying and distributing it = no. Obtaining it from a friend for free = no.
 
No it's not, iTunes screws the hell out of you if you buy songs from them.

Just as one example, I recently bought Mothership which has 24 songs on two CD's for a whole $11.99 + 6% sales tax at Best buy (so $12.71). The same CD at $.99 a song would have cost $23.76, almost double the price at the store.

To throw another example out there, I also recently bought In Search of Sunrise by Tiesto for $12.99 at Best Buy ($13.77 with tax) and it has a whopping 28 tracks on it, meaning $27.72 if I were to buy it on iTunes, which is more then double.

A majority of CD's cost between $9.99 and $12.99 at Best Buy and typically have between 10-15 tracks on them. Even if it is cheaper to buy on iTunes for some of them you are still getting a better quality product by actually getting the CD itself. And if you don't feel like buy from Best Buy or other retail store, Amazon.com will typically ship you your CD free of charge within 3 days of you buying it from them.

iTunes is garbage, it's just a way for a company to scam more money out of you, same thing goes for Zune software, Napster, etc. Although with the Zune software it's like $15.99 a month for unlimited downloads or something, I'm not a 100% sure as I don't buy music from them.

You know if these music companies quit overcharging for their products we'd probably have less illegal downloading.

Downloading songs from itunes doesn't cost them to make a CD. CD productions add an extra few dollars to each CD you buy, plus shipping and everything. Itunes doesn't require CD's or shipping (sending them over the net) Sorry if you are talking about ordering a CD, but i was thinking you meant downloading a set (album)
 
I was talking about physically buying the CD from Best Buy is cheaper than downloading it from iTunes.
 
I would kinda agree with GrumpEone, in that companies like iTunes sell music at effectively the same price as if you brought it from a store (~1$ a song), yet sell a much inferior quality product.
Doesn't really alter the legality of piracy though does it. It's upto the consumers to back whats good value and not to back what isn't. iTunes has been a big hit, if it's offering an inferior product for the same price, then it's down to the consumers to keep buying the superior product until iTunes drop thier prices. Which is what you essentially say next.

However, if you don't like it then just buy the CDs, it doesn't mean you have the right to steal the 'inferior' versions.[/quote]Exactley, it doesn't alter the legality of piracy does it. It's upto the consumers to back whats good value and not to back what isn't. iTunes has been a big hit, if it's offering an inferior product for the same price, then it's down to the consumers to keep buying the superior product until iTunes drop thier prices. Which is what you essentially say next.

Actually, I don't believe it is illegal to tape off the air, because the song is broadcast on a free medium, and the songs are given to the station for airplay by their owners. Dan's wife could probably refine that for us, though.
I'm pretty certain that your right, it is legal to tape of the air, it was illegal I think in the early 90's here, but I'm sure they legalised it. I don't know the in's and out's behind why, but I'd assume that it has a lot to do with it being aired free of charge or on a station you've paid for. Taping the song and then passing it on though is still piracy.
 
does a full up frequency analysis at different encoding rates and does blind listening tests on low and hi fidelity audio equipment. Here are his conclusions
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/04/02itunes.html

Thanks for the link, some good info there... After reading the analysis I must say that MP3's are a higher quality than I had noticed. Though still an inferior product, much less inferior than I gave MP3's credit for. I guess it really depends on who records the file, and how it is converted. I also recently did some research on some 360kbps (variable) MP3's and noticed a far less reduction in High-Mids and High-Highs, in terms of sound quality.
 
I figured this is close enough to being relevant:

Pål asked 50 Cent: “How are G-Unit Records doing in these times of file-sharing?

“Not so good.” he responded. “The advances in technology impacts everyone, and we all must adapt. Most of all hip-hop, a style of music dependent upon a youthful audience. This market consists of individuals embracing innovations faster than the fans of classical and jazz music.”
“What is important for the music industry to understand is that this really doesn’t hurt the artists.”


Thats quite a statement. Organizations like the RIAA are always talking about how the artists get hurt by file-sharing but 50 Cent clearly doesn’t agree. In fact, he appears to appreciate the value of a good fan, whether he buys or file-shares his music, as he explains:


“A young fan may be just as devout and dedicated no matter if he bought it or stole it.”
Linky.

All that being said, I still think downloading MP3s off of the internet is wrong (not to mention being completely illegal), regardless of if there isn't much harm to it.
 
Yes, here are two examples

Joey D
Just as one example, I recently bought Mothership which has 24 songs on two CD's for a whole $11.99 + 6% sales tax at Best buy (so $12.71). The same CD at $.99 a song would have cost $23.76, almost double the price at the store.

To throw another example out there, I also recently bought In Search of Sunrise by Tiesto for $12.99 at Best Buy ($13.77 with tax) and it has a whopping 28 tracks on it, meaning $27.72 if I were to buy it on iTunes, which is more then double.
 
Yeah, then you still have to have the CD-R, and the burner to make a CD.

The issue of DRM-free music and outdated copyright issues has nothing to do with owning a personal hardcopy of the music. Actually holding in your hand the music is an outdated feeling leftover from the 90s. The music industry's consumers will never need these again. The actual industry thinks it does though.
 

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