Is Gran Turismo 7 Using Retention Manipulation in Online Racing?

[bliprunner]

I don't think PD help with some of their slipstream choices, it was hard to break away at Deep Forest, that much was true. So to some extent they are trying to keep things close.

However, remember that there are lots of aliens, streamers and S-rank drivers who are practicing and racing an incredible amount, using telemetry, studying every corner of the game. Plus you have the code-diggers. If there was manipulation of pace by PD they would very likely notice.

And from PD's angle, would it be worth the risk? Something like this would be a major scandal, upset their top players and fans, taint the World Series and the whole franchise.

Seems like a bit of a mad risk when safer methods of retention are available (ie, fix the penalty system, have more interesting races, use the weather more, etc)

 

[iWizardzZ_x]

Honestly if you don’t understand the topic of the post please don’t post a reply. If you’re not able to understand what is written in the post it’s best not comment. You only make yourself look stupid. To even have to explain it to you feels like a waist of time.

Your waisting peoples time posting this rage bait buddy. Very obvious your just posting this ignorant rabble on PD's behalf to distract us from the lack of tracks in recent updates or all the SUV and VGT's they add. You have no proof that this nonsense is in the game, sounds more like your making up excuses for your inconsistent driving. The gentlemen doth protest too much!

 

[eran0004]

Honestly if you don’t understand the topic of the post please don’t post a reply. If you’re not able to understand what is written in the post it’s best not comment. You only make yourself look stupid. To even have to explain it to you feels like a waist of time.

Sure. Or you can explain what you mean when you say the odds are in their favour. Are they gaining something when you recieve a low value prize?

 

[benjoi84]

As @PlanetJanet said earlier, there is a significant-enough dataset from the very public-facing YouTube community, along with countless hundreds of high ranking players who have millions of combined hours in the game that if there were some underhand things going on it would be highly unlikely that you (OP) would be the first to uncover it.

Classic "I'm so much smarter than everyone else" behaviour.

It's worth remembering that PD haven't really provided any technical help with some of the 'invisible' mechanics in the game, yet the userbase have collectively managed to figure out nearly everything going on behind the curtain, all by themselves.

 

[Hbc Hades]

The confirmation bias is strong in you.

 

[dude0702]

I could upload countless videos and breakdown throttle position braking points on comparison laps on the same line. And you will post dismissive comments highlighting any slight bias your brain can conjure up for drama and argumentative purposes. The proof has to come from PD.

Well, start there then! Right now you have a hunch that is based on your experience. That's valid, but not enough to convince someone who hasn't experienced the same thing (i.e. the rest of us). We will need something more if you expect us to change our minds.

As other have said, the burden of proof is on the person challenging the status quo, not the other way around. In this particular case, you're the one saying "things aren't the way they seem" and are expected to provide proof.

Side note: This is quite an interesting topic and I appreciate the fact you started the thread. Unfortunately, your dismissive behavior (up until this point) has negatively impacted the discussion.

 

[Pianista911]

Regarding quali vs race - don't forget the wind. It changes things A LOT. Same track, same car, same tyre and fuel level - the difference on a straight can be a few kmhs, depending of wind's direction an strength.

 

[Famine]

Huh. It actually took a little longer this time for mild pushback to result in abuse.

The exorbitant cost of specific cars with the chances of obtaining the required amount of money in game is made incredibly difficult to push players toward in game credits purchasing.

Was it a rough trip from 2022?

At launch, the economy sucked (and it probably will return to a sucky, if less so, state when the game goes offline). We wrote a big piece on it at the time. Since then, several steps have been taken to make credit-earning much, much easier - and without grinding unless you want a few million quickly.

Weekly Challenges basically give away 1.3m every week for five short races, Time Trials basically give away 1m a week (Silver times required, though they are pretty easy for most players) or 2m if you're a driver good enough to be A+ (or not; I can get gold most weeks, but usually don't bother if it looks like it'll take more than a couple of laps), official online series - ~8 series a year, though we're in a bit of a lull right now - are worth ~3m if you're a reasonable B driver (or ~6m if you're a reasonable A+ driver) for three or four races, and they keep giving away free cars for just clicking a button during live finals weekends, and around 3m just for logging in ten times during the Christmas/New Year three weeks. Oh and the "rigged" roulette is worth about 1.5m a month if you grab it every day.

You can almost passively scoop up 120m a year, or around 200m of credits and in-kind if you put a bit of effort into it, without touching a single grind race, and that's been the case since Spec II in November 2023. That's almost 400m to date, or a bit more than two-thirds (about 70%) of the cost of the entire car list. Add in all the free prize cars you can collect (plus My First GT), one of which is the seven-figure D-Type, and the 50m from Circuit Experiences and you're pretty close to it.

At launch, the publisher (SIE) definitely wanted to push people towards microtransactions (the publisher earns the money from MTX, not the developer), but even then there was evidence that the developer (PD) didn't want that by providing get-arounds that they knew the community would discover - and even after hamstringing the big one, provided a few more.


It could be easier and quicker - it always could - but since Spec II it's simply not been an issue, and it's weird that anyone who plays the game would still think that it is.

 

[newmedia_dev]

I understand your point. However I have had multiple races on this game and I am more than capable of achieving within 0.300 easily as a consistent race pace essentially from lap 2 after the tyres heat up and drop roughly 1 second when the tyres fall below half worn. And have matched if not beaten my qualifying time in a race on multiple occasions

There is one VERY big difference between qualifying TT and races.

Qualifying is done on your own and not in the lobby format.

Races are in a lobby where connection quality will vary for lots of technical reasons, lots of differences between each players connections this is more than enough to subtly change braking distances, braking input vs when it’s reflected on screen, same with throttle input.

These things alone are enough to affect your pace and it’s very very hard to drive round these things because no lobby will have the same stability of network connections.

These are all small millisecond things but they are enough to provide a lot of the perceptions you are having.

Recently there has been a lot less stability in lobbies which again will manifest itself in the ways you describe.

Sport mode player base is largely stable with numbers not seeing huge swings which would then negate the desire for PD to spend effort and money to implement a system that only 2% of the entire player base would ever experience with net actual value creation for PD.

If they did want to do that, surely they would just adjust match making to create wider lobby spreads?

 

[NAXEHT]

What’s your PSN?

 

[Lomic]

What’s your PSN?

Stop asking for evidence you narrow minded sheeple 🤣

 

[jrbabbitt]

Stop asking for evidence you narrow minded sheeple 🤣

Baaaaaaaaa🤣🤣🐑🐑

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

Ok people give it a few years and just like other games it will all come out in the trash. **** you people make me sick and are a good reason why the world is so ****ed. Simple people with simple minds.

I was casually reading along, being entertained by the tunnel vision of the thread up until this point, when for some reason you decided to insult everyone and make mellow dramatic statements.

The basis of forums is debate and discussion. Regardless of what point is made, there will always be opinions that oppose it. If you want to create a strong base for your opinion, conjecture won't do it, strong proof will.

Your thread has no proof beyond verbal account. This is why the opposition is having no problem disassembling your argument.

Another point of concern is the lack of consideration for opposing opinions. A few times through this thread you've shown some consideration that what other people have said may be true in part, when the opinion raised doesn't stand firmly against yours, but you're very firmly planted in the idea that what you think you're seeing in game is 100% true, and you won't budge from that.

Without proof, either in terms of perfectly recreated runs (100% recreated pixel-perfect route, braking, acceleration, fuel load, tire temps etc) with replays showing the timing differences, or access to the games code, your claims are open to opposition and you have to be open to the idea that you're just as likely incorrect as the people providing counter-opinions.

The world isn't ****ed because people don't agree with you. The world is screwed because far too many people think their opinions are true, and that they have the right to force their perspective on others without providing any justification or proof.

 

[TumeK5]

you people are a good reason why the world is so ****ed. Simple people with simple minds.

So...does that mean you're a complicated person with a complicated mind then?

 

[Rossell2]

"You're allowed to debate this topic as long as you admit I'm right."

If you can provide some tangible evidence that this exists I'll certainly listen. Until then, it doesn't stack up for me. Look at my most recent post in the daily race thread, 3/4 of the lobby were A and A+ drivers.

 

[RINGO2287R]

Huh. It actually took a little longer this time for mild pushback to result in abuse.

Was it a rough trip from 2022?

At launch, the economy sucked (and it probably will return to a sucky, if less so, state when the game goes offline). We wrote a big piece on it at the time. Since then, several steps have been taken to make credit-earning much, much easier - and without grinding unless you want a few million quickly.

Weekly Challenges basically give away 1.3m every week for five short races, Time Trials basically give away 1m a week (Silver times required, though they are pretty easy for most players) or 2m if you're a driver good enough to be A+ (or not; I can get gold most weeks, but usually don't bother if it looks like it'll take more than a couple of laps), official online series - ~8 series a year, though we're in a bit of a lull right now - are worth ~3m if you're a reasonable B driver (or ~6m if you're a reasonable A+ driver) for three or four races, and they keep giving away free cars for just clicking a button during live finals weekends, and around 3m just for logging in ten times during the Christmas/New Year three weeks. Oh and the "rigged" roulette is worth about 1.5m a month if you grab it every day.

You can almost passively scoop up 120m a year, or around 200m of credits and in-kind if you put a bit of effort into it, without touching a single grind race, and that's been the case since Spec II in November 2023. That's almost 400m to date, or a bit more than two-thirds (about 70%) of the cost of the entire car list. Add in all the free prize cars you can collect (plus My First GT), one of which is the seven-figure D-Type, and the 50m from Circuit Experiences and you're pretty close to it.

At launch, the publisher (SIE) definitely wanted to push people towards microtransactions (the publisher earns the money from MTX, not the developer), but even then there was evidence that the developer (PD) didn't want that by providing get-arounds that they knew the community would discover - and even after hamstringing the big one, provided a few more.


It could be easier and quicker - it always could - but since Spec II it's simply not been an issue, and it's weird that anyone who plays the game would still think that it is.

You’re an absolute disgrace. The post is a Question. And you have allowed this entire post to become a personal attack on me for asking it and allowing people to ask stupid questions unrelated to the topic. Nice job as moderator.

 

[TumeK5]

You’re an absolute disgrace. You have allowed this entire post to become a personal attack on me.

That's a wild hallucination you're experiencing, considering you took it upon yourself to flip everyone off, by choice.

 

[jrbabbitt]

Honestly if you don’t understand the topic of the post please don’t post a reply. If you’re not able to understand what is written in the post it’s best not comment. You only make yourself look stupid. To even have to explain it to you feels like a waist of time.

Ok people give it a few years and just like other games it will all come out in the trash. **** you people make me sick and are a good reason why the world is so ****ed. Simple people with simple minds.

You’re an absolute disgrace. The post is a Question. And you have allowed this entire post to become a personal attack on me for asking it and allowing people to ask stupid questions unrelated to the topic. Nice job as moderator.

I do believe you should look at your past replies where it became abusive to us by insults. Nobody was attacking you personally, just asking for proof of what you are accusing of PD...

 

[Rossell2]

You’re an absolute disgrace. The post is a Question. And you have allowed this entire post to become a personal attack on me for asking it and allowing people to ask stupid questions unrelated to the topic. Nice job as moderator.

Aight fella. Time to wipe the foam from your mouth.

 

[dude0702]

 

[Rangeraus]

As an A+ ranked driver with countless hours and years across multiple Gran Turismo titles, I’ve reached a troubling conclusion that I need to share.
I’ve been racing in Gran Turismo games for years, working my way up through the ranks to achieve A+ driver rating in both GT7 and Sport. I’ve competed at GT1 level of World Series, putting in thousands of hours perfecting my craft across multiple GT titles. This isn’t coming from a casual player frustrated with losing – this comes from someone who has lived and breathed this series since its inception.

Recently, I’ve begun to suspect that GT7 may be employing retention manipulation tactics during online races. These are common practice tactics that big game developers use and in my opinion deceptive. What I’m experiencing feels like deliberate performance handicapping designed to create artificially close racing, particularly when competing against slower-rated drivers. I’ll use this weeks deed forest as an example. I’m mid 1:26s as a qualifying time but because of my region and Rank there are not many players with this pace or Dr rank to compete with. In races it is somehow impossible to achieve writhing 0.800 of my qualification time despite driving the car extremely fast and pushing obviously at the correct time when tyres are as good as new and with low fuel.

Why I think this is accruing is because of what I stated previously. Here are my suspicions as to why.
The symptoms I’m noticing include:
• Cars not performing as they should in specific races
• Sudden, unexplainable loss of grip at crucial moments
• Performance inconsistencies that don’t align with car setup or driving conditions
• These issues seeming to occur more frequently when racing against lower-rated opponents

While I’m not entirely certain about the technical methods that could be used to slow down faster drivers, the pattern is becoming too consistent to ignore. Whether it’s through subtle physics manipulation, grip reduction, or other behind-the-scenes adjustments, something feels fundamentally wrong. If my suspicions are correct, the implications extend far beyond just frustrating individual races.
If the game is artificially manipulating race outcomes, then our Driver Rating (DR) system becomes meaningless. DR should reflect genuine driving skill and consistency, not the result of algorithmic interference designed to create “exciting” close racing.

This has serious consequences for World Series qualification. These events are supposed to represent the pinnacle of GT competition, where the fastest and most skilled drivers compete. If DR ratings are being artificially manipulated, then:
• Deserving drivers might be prevented from qualifying
• The competitive integrity of the entire World Series is compromised
• Players are being denied opportunities they’ve legitimately earned

If Polyphony Digital is indeed implementing such systems:
• They have a responsibility to be transparent about it
• Players deserve to know if their race results are being manipulated
• The competitive integrity of their esports platform is at stake

Gran Turismo has positioned itself as “The Real Driving Simulator” and has built a serious esports ecosystem around that premise. If retention manipulation is occurring, it fundamentally undermines everything the series claims to represent.
As competitors, we need to know that our results reflect our actual performance, not algorithmic decisions designed to keep us engaged. The World Series and the broader GT community deserve better than artificial drama created at the expense of competitive integrity.

I’m sharing this not to be destructive, but because I love this series and want to see it maintain the competitive integrity it promises. If I’m wrong, I’d welcome clarification from Polyphony Digital. If I’m right, then we need to have an honest conversation about what this means for the future of competitive Gran Turismo.
Has anyone else experienced similar issues? I’d love to hear from other high-level players about whether they’ve noticed these patterns too.

Wind speed and direction, ambient temperature, tyre temperature (which isn't displayed very obviously in the UI), tyre wear, fuel consumption, all make a big difference to lap time. Depending on the race, these variables are not the same as in qualifying. The driving physics have changed a few times since launch too.

You can't really judge based on driver rating alone... some drivers are better when driving certain cars and tracks, some drivers just practice more for a certain combination, some are racing on an alternate account, and so on. Entering an online league would be a good comparison as you would usually be competing against the same drivers consistently, so you'd be able to benchmark your performance in a way that isn't usually possible with Daily Races.

Most GTWS-level drivers have at least 1000 driving hours on GT7 alone. I find it incredibly unlikely that they wouldn't have noticed if there was an artificial catchup mechanism.

 

[ikon_313]

Honestly if you don’t understand the topic of the post please don’t post a reply. If you’re not able to understand what is written in the post it’s best not comment. You only make yourself look stupid. To even have to explain it to you feels like a waist of time.

The waist of time:

 

[Rossell2]

The waist of time, that's called getting older.

 

[Famine]

You’re an absolute disgrace.

Coming from the "I'm not racist but..." guy who claimed Japanese players abuse the penalty systerm and blamed (incorrectly) server location for ANZ players not making it to GTWS events (also incorrectly), I'm pretty happy with that. With all that's come before and now this it seems you just have a chip about not being a GTWS finalist.

Also you should probably read what everyone else is telling you, rather than kicking off because they don't agree with you and then kicking off at me for letting them.

And I'm not a moderator, so the fail continues.


The answer to your question is, for reference, "no" - but feel free to actually provide some evidence rather than whatever you've been doing so far.

 

[ikon_313]

The waist of time, that's called getting older.

Older, none the wiser.

 

[MUC76]

I’m not sure, if I can help you (but for sure I can’t make this thread worse if I try). You shared some suspicions and asked, if anyone else experienced similar issues. Obviously, nobody experienced the same issues and this thread lacks of proofs.

Finally, it comes down to your judgment. If you are able to draw correct conclusions from your observations, you may be right. If you are unable to do so, you are probably wrong. To help you nonetheless, we can only try to help you evaluate your judgment based on evidence as much as possible.

You called the user @Lomic to a group of „Simple people with simple minds“. Herewith You have drawn a conclusion that we can evaluate very competently, because we have been conducting a series of experiments with the user Lomic for a long time, as he is a permanent member of a racing club that is organized here on GTPlanet.

All members of this club unanimously confirm that one could held against him is that he takes a very evidence-based approach, does not jump to conclusions, and never presents his opinion as fact (This ist a drawback for our internal jokes from time to time.). Furthermore, all members agree that he for sure does not belong to a group of „Simple people with simple minds“.

In our club we have at least two A+ ranked drivers with countless hours and years across multiple Gran Turismo titles, putting in thousands of hours perfecting their craft across multiple GT titles. Nobody would judge them as casual players frustrated with losing – but as aliens (but the most lovely you can find) who have lived and breathed this series since its inception.

This is more or less at least twice the competence, you have. Thus obviously you are not able to draw correct conclusions from your observations and thus your conclusions are probably wrong.


Thank me later!


p.s.
Please don’t call @Lomic belonging to a group of „Simple people with simple minds“ again. A couple of A+ ranked guys sitting on their sofas with their Voodoo-Controllers may try to provide some „Sudden, unexplainable loss of grip at crucial moments“ during World Series qualification!
Thank You!

 

[newmedia_dev]

The pace in the top lobbies is close to QT times (relative)

What isn’t happening is a loads of C/B (TT times) are catching them.

Actually in my 9000th hour of playing the game in Mixed A/A+ (some S) there is none of this stuff happening.

Didn’t realise my US account was maxed B DR but hey how I shouldn’t drink as much as I do.

Did 7 races as a very very fast B driver in the US servers and there was no difference when I was catching or losing time to the 2 A+ drivers just going away.

So honestly 6000 races in GT7 in, fairly quick and use some telemetry occasionally, this OP view point is interesting but not the reality being played out.