Is GT5 physics running similar to forza 2's in the background?

[Barso]

I feel GT5 prologue and forza 2 play very differently but what is it makes them play so differently?
If I play forza 2 and watch the telemetry data, it shows a huge amount of data being processed in the physics engine and it is incredibly detailed.
The tuning options are unbelievable and alot more comprehensive than GT5 prologue.
I know GT5 is a demo but I don't think its tuning options will be that different but for buying aftermarket tuning. What GT5 has nailed for me is watching the car body roll in the replays but I do think all GT5 will be is GT5 but with more cars and tracks.
The A.I.is awful and how will GT5 deliver without being downgraded?
The london track has terrible screen tearing and so does the eiger whan playing with other cars on track.
The problem is GT5 is trying to hard.
Remember GT4rologue was downgrded for GT4.
The track evironments and textures are terrible but I feel Kazunori must feel the same as Hideo Kojima! Sony promised them a console that would blow them away and let them make the game they always wanted and sorry to say but sony did not deliver.

 

[GTP_chemicaL]

Forza is a fast game, the traction doesnt slow you down like GT5P. The tuning is much better in forza but im sure PD will add to it for GT5 and What TV are you playing GT on as it looks amazing.

 

[Barso]

I am playing it on a 37 inch panasinic plasma.
I know everyone has a different opinion but for me GT5 tracks and road textures leave alot to be desired.
I think that the inclusion of damage will downgrade the car models and graphics.
They should let it run with 10 cars on the track and please stop the flashing cars on the ghost cars and cars with penalties.
It look unfinished and pathetic.
But all credit to PD, GT5 shows just how obsessive they are with cars.
The modelling of the F50 puts forza2's car modellers to shame.
It looks to scale were forza2's F50 looks to long.
This is were GT5 grabs me and that is racing the car around a track trying to beat my previous laps and then sitting with a nice cuppa and watching the replays.
I just hope they manage to get the on-line fixed.
I think they will as it seems thay are using the Prologue as an on-line beta.

 

[Beerz]

road textures leave alot to be desired.

Whah?

The modelling of the F50 puts forza2's car modellers to shame.

Whah?

 

[Hun200kmh]

He means the Enzo.

 

[GTP_chemicaL]

Whats wrong with the online

 

[Kryz11]

The london track has terrible screen tearing and so does the eiger whan

I think its your TV. I play both with cars, and i See no screen tear. Maybe once in a while.

besides. so many GT5 and FORZA 2 threads.. we dont need more

Forza 2 is arcade sim game even if you have everything off ( aids)
GT5 is pure SIM game if you have everything off and PRO mode

 

[RedOak]

I think its your TV. I play both with cars, and i See no screen tear. Maybe once in a while.

my tv's Aquos L94U 52" (flagship sharp LCD) and i see lots of tearing as well. Its no the TV.

Forza 2 is arcade sim game even if you have everything off ( aids)
GT5 is pure SIM game if you have everything off and PRO mode

Forza2's tire pressure and control is superior to GT5p's... as for "pure Sim"... i couldn't disagree more. While in Forza2 you can clearly feel the difference between "sliding" and "gripping", the same cannot be said about GT5p. I play both games with a controller, and while at max difficulty in Forza2 i can clearly say when i'm in control; when my tires have grip and i can open the engine, i am never sure whenever that happens in GT5p, it seems the car is never really in control and there is no feel for grip.

 

[GTP_chemicaL]

at max difficulty in Forza2 i can clearly say when i'm in control; when my tires have grip and i can open the engine, i am never sure whenever that happens in GT5p, it seems the car is never really in control and there is no feel for grip.

I agree with that GT makes you feel like you never have any grip, Forza has just the right amount. But theres no screen tearing.

 

[Jay]

While in Forza2 you can clearly feel the difference between "sliding" and "gripping", the same cannot be said about GT5p. I play both games with a controller, and while at max difficulty in Forza2 i can clearly say when i'm in control; when my tires have grip and i can open the engine, i am never sure whenever that happens in GT5p, it seems the car is never really in control and there is no feel for grip.

I couldn't disagree more, I can't comment on Forza 2 as I havent had much time with it or with controllers as I use a G25 but when I play with my G25 I can feel the threshold of grip and hold it there, long corners like the one going into the tunnel at Eiger (Forward) you can just hold it on the limit and even give some extra throttle to give a very slight slip angle to assist on exit direction.

 

[SavageEvil]

No feeling of grip in GT5 P? That sounds like a load of bs to me. The cars in GT5 P all feel weighty, there's always a feeling of grip, if there wasn't i guarantee you'd have quite a hard time getting around a course at a good clip. I use the G25, and utilizing the clutch makes a world of difference when playing, ever downshifted while in a corner, the wheels will slip momentarily and depending on your speed, prepare for a drift or a spin.

If you have no feeling of grip, how on earth do you know when to accelerate out of corners? I have a feeling that it's because you are too used to the insane grip in Forza 2.

My gripe with GT5P is that the throttle doesn't feel like you are really burying it, in a moderately powered vehicle, when you bury the throttle you can break the wheels loose, but in GT5P it rarely does this unless you are in a high powered car. I have a '04 Corolla on 17x7.5 wheels, and i can break the wheels loose on dry streets, it's only got 139hp. Also i have done it in my brothers '04 A4 1.8T and that is pushing 200+, so what is up with GT5P?

 

[Earth]

Forza2's tire pressure and control is superior to GT5p's... as for "pure Sim"... i couldn't disagree more. While in Forza2 you can clearly feel the difference between "sliding" and "gripping", the same cannot be said about GT5p. I play both games with a controller, and while at max difficulty in Forza2 i can clearly say when i'm in control; when my tires have grip and i can open the engine, i am never sure whenever that happens in GT5p, it seems the car is never really in control and there is no feel for grip.

You should get a Force Feed Back wheel like the DFGT or G25. I don't know how I ever drove a car in the GT series without a wheel when I got the DFP. It gives you a far better sense of when the car has traction and when it doesnt. If you're going to use a SIXAXIS it's like a wheel user driving blind or with the sound turned off. The feedback you receive through a wheel is EXTREMELY important.

Now GT5P's physics are far from perfect though.

The tuning options are unbelievable and alot more comprehensive than GT5 prologue.

Yeah, that's why they call it "quick tune"

The A.I.is awful and how will GT5 deliver without being downgraded?

They drive better then real people online

The track evironments and textures are terrible but I feel Kazunori must feel the same as Hideo Kojima! Sony promised them a console that would blow them away and let them make the game they always wanted and sorry to say but sony did not deliver.

And I'm guessing you think the 360 delivered with games like Forza 2 and PGR4 while the PS3 has failed with Metal Gear Solid 4 and Gran Turismo 5 Prologue?

GT5P is head and shoulders graphically above any racing game on the 360, and it's not even the full game.

And I've said this many times before on this forum, but I remember playing 8 bit racing games and it really confuses me when people complain about great looking games like GT5P.

Sort of like that Heavenly Sword screenshot where someone ignored the whole picture and pointed out a low poly rock. Oh man.

Please realize graphics do not make a game.

When you say Sony gave Kojima and Kazunori a system that would blow them away I'm assuming you are really talking about yourself. You thought the PS3 would blow you away but instead you are left dissappointed. Once again remember, graphics do not make a game, some of the greatest games ever were made 10, 15, 20 years ago.

And I even heard PD's Boss Kazunori Yamauchi say we are still years away from the technology he wants to fulfill his vision of Gran Turismo.

PS3's specs were finalized 3 years ago.

Have you ever watched the movie the Great White Hype?

Good movie

 

[flubbachany]

my tv's Aquos L94U 52" (flagship sharp LCD) and i see lots of tearing as well. Its no the TV.



Forza2's tire pressure and control is superior to GT5p's... as for "pure Sim"... i couldn't disagree more. While in Forza2 you can clearly feel the difference between "sliding" and "gripping", the same cannot be said about GT5p. I play both games with a controller, and while at max difficulty in Forza2 i can clearly say when i'm in control; when my tires have grip and i can open the engine, i am never sure whenever that happens in GT5p, it seems the car is never really in control and there is no feel for grip.

Thing is, you're using a controller. I use a DFP and can tell exactly when my car is gripping and sliding. try playing with a wheel such as the G25 and you'll see what we mean.

 

[Zer0]

I play both games with a controller, and while at max difficulty in Forza2 i can clearly say when i'm in control; when my tires have grip and i can open the engine, i am never sure whenever that happens in GT5p, it seems the car is never really in control and there is no feel for grip.

You're very wrong, obviously a vibration pad(Xbox) give you more feedback than a non vibration one(sixaxis), at least try with the new Dualshock3 with vibration to compare.

The feel with a FF wheel is miles away than any controller.

 

[dzidza]

it's like comparing driving two games with played with keyboard. unless you have a proper wheel on both consoles your comparison is useless. I have played many
different pc games, with different wheels, and it's always different with each wheel. The better wheel you have more you will find how good a game is.

Try to play forza2 with non FF wheel and then say that you can know when car is gripping or slipping.

 

[Kryz11]

Play wtih a wheel, then you will feel grip.. IDK where you guys get the ideas from. GT5 is designed to have a wheel, forza with controller. It has a crappy wheel.
GT5P is far better SIM and far better physics, if you compare any car in GT5P to real life, the times will be almost identical. In forza, physics are way off, you dont need a racing line to win, you can brake TOO late and yet you can pull off a turn. Forza is just a eye candy and people think it just is a sim because they feel grip on the controller. Burnout Paradies, I can feel grip, is that a SIM? NO!

Every Gamer complains about GT5 not being a sim. Yet every real life Race car drivers when they do a review of the game, they say the cars handle as they should and its a true SIM, just with no DAMAGE

....

my tv's Aquos L94U 52" (flagship sharp LCD) and i see lots of tearing as well. Its no the TV.

It is you're TV.

1080p? 720p?
if 1080p and you see tearing, switch the PS3 to put out 720p
If in 720p still screen tearing, then its a crappy TV, truth to be said.

 

[AERO_HDT]

It's not the TV, it's the way the graphics processor works. I have a 42" Sony Bravia XD 1080P and I get the occaisional screen tear and I use a full 1080P HDMI. Don't have the problem with a lesser def, standard TV, but the PS3 doesn't have to display at 1080P in those instances.

I don't get screen tear when I'm watching a blu-ray disc, I only get screen tear in GT5P. It's the way the graphics get processed, apparently PD haven't fully mastered the PS3 yet.

 

[Kryz11]

i have a sony 55 inch, at full 1080p and I don't have tear screen. And yet you do? So it must be the TV, not the Processor.. Tear Screen occurs less then once a day.. rally rare for me. There are TV's that have HUGE slowdown at 1080p and there are some that are nice and clean at 1080p gaming. So I'm guessing it the tv

 

[DustDriver]

I've only had screen tearing (not tear screening noxnoctis ) happen 2 or 3 times.
Not really a serious problem for me

 

[Wolfe]

Okay, without any experience on GT5P I can't exactly contribute a lot to this thread, but I can add my $0.02 on the wheel/controller issue.

Several of you are saying feedback is an issue, particularly with the SixAxis' lack of rumble. What you may have not considered is that different people rely on different forms of feedback. I myself am very much a visual-oriented driver. I could race in Enthusia all day with the sound muted and a controller with broken rumble. Audio cues and good force feedback are certainly helpful, but do nothing but harm if they're implemented poorly.

Maybe RedOak is right and GT5P is vague. Maybe you guys are right and it isn't with a FFB wheel. I don't know. What I do know is that it'd be kinda embarrassing if a $40 demo only available on the most-expensive console of this generation required another $100+ or $200+ investment for a wheel just to feel "right."

Being a visual-oriented driver, I know from experience that realism and reliable visual cues go hand-in-hand. If GT5P is as grippy and communicative as you guys say, then you should be able to see it, "feel" it, just by watching the cars move onscreen. If the only way to feel grip in the game is to feel your DFP or G25 tug on your hand, then Polyphony Digital has some work to do before GT5's release.

if you compare any car in GT5P to real life, the times will be almost identical

Irrelevant. There are way, way too many variables involved in replicating a real laptime on a virtual track to declare a sim "realistic" simply because times match up.

I might comment on your comparison of GT5P and Forza 2 if I had experience with GT5P. Forza 2 is far from excellent, but it's more realistic than any PS1 or PS2 Gran Turismo. Not too surprising given the greater processing power available.

Every Gamer complains about GT5 not being a sim. Yet every real life Race car drivers when they do a review of the game, they say the cars handle as they should and its a true SIM, just with no DAMAGE

....

Since when do even most gamers complain about any Gran Turismo not being a sim? Maybe we're looking at different crowds, but from my vantage point every iteration of the game is praised as the second coming of the Driving Sim Jesus.

As for the racecar drivers, we don't know what they've played. Analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of various driving sims is one thing; playing just one game, noting the real-life cars and tracks and the fact that the cars don't just zip around corners at 300mph, and going "yup, it's pretty realistic" is another. If you want a professional's opinion, I'd suggest going to Scaff. I trust him more than any motorsports celebrity.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Being a visual-oriented driver, I know from experience that realism and reliable visual cues go hand-in-hand. If GT5P is as grippy and communicative as you guys say, then you should be able to see it, "feel" it, just by watching the cars move onscreen. If the only way to feel grip in the game is to feel your DFP or G25 tug on your hand, then Polyphony Digital has some work to do before GT5's release.

Wolfe, you are the only guy I know that could actually drive EPR with the controller. I never could, always needed the wheel.

However (my wheel is broken now, thanks to the kids) I can drive GT5P with the sixaxis controller. I'm sure I'll shave a few seconds using the wheel, but driving with the controller and still get the "feel" of the car is definitely "doable" in GT5P.

 

[Kryz11]

I read the review .. it can be find on these forums.. Some race car driver put thoughts in this game. If he plays a 100 games or just one. He knows if the car is going 200mph on a turn or just 40 MPH 💡. He would tell if the cars are 10-20 mph faster or slower on turns. If he says this game is a GOOD sim, then I would have to agree as well. I'm no race car driver ( i wish LOL ) but I play heck lot of other PC racing sim and Forza as well. And to me GT5 stands out the most in terms the feel and accurate handling's of each car. As well I think GT always had one of best circuits around. So Forza compared to lets say GTR2, rFactor and GT5P, its way way off.
Oh by the way I think Scaff did mention that GT5P is really good sim, so i have to agree with him as well

*when I say GT5 stands out the most, dont flame me because of PC sim racing, I think they are good, but need to update as well * but its a never ending process. Even Kaz said he is only half way there into true immersion of racing.

So Wolf, what kind of WHEEL do you use to play GT5P?

 

[Jay]

So Wolf, what kind of WHEEL do you use to play GT5P?

.

Okay, without any experience on GT5P I can't exactly contribute a lot to this thread, but I can add my $0.02 on the wheel/controller issue.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe, you are the only guy I know that could actually drive EPR with the controller. I never could, always needed the wheel.

However (my wheel is broken now, thanks to the kids) I can drive GT5P with the sixaxis controller. I'm sure I'll shave a few seconds using the wheel, but driving with the controller and still get the "feel" of the car is definitely "doable" in GT5P.

As I remarked recently in the Enthusia forum, the problem with EPR is that the steering response is unusually slow with the joystick. Steering inputs take more time and must be more deliberate. It takes some adjustment, but it offers a surprising amount of precision, and now that I've gotten used to it I have more trouble with the wonky force feedback on the G25.

I read the review .. it can be find on these forums.. Some race car driver put thoughts in this game. If he plays a 100 games or just one. He knows if the car is going 200mph on a turn or just 40 MPH 💡. He would tell if the cars are 10-20 mph faster or slower on turns. If he says this game is a GOOD sim, then I would have to agree as well. I'm no race car driver ( i wish LOL ) but I play heck lot of other PC racing sim and Forza as well. And to me GT5 stands out the most in terms the feel and accurate handling's of each car. As well I think GT always had one of best circuits around. So Forza compared to lets say GTR2, rFactor and GT5P, its way way off.
Oh by the way I think Scaff did mention that GT5P is really good sim, so i have to agree with him as well

I've almost no doubt that GT5P is a good sim. I've read enough positive remarks from GTP members I trust. I'm just warning you to not take a professional driver's appraisal of a game at face value.

For example, Tiff Needell was recently quoted as saying the following about a little-known game called Ferrari Challenge (I just found out about it recently on GTP's Nintendo forum) -- "Looks awesome, plays even better - 10/10." Is it really a perfect game? Is it even really a sim, or is it just good enough at pretending to be one that Tiff didn't experiment enough to find its flaws? Does Tiff even care?

Developers can get famous people to say just about anything about their games. Unless the review you speak of included assessments of specific, technical details in the ways the cars handled, it's pointless.

*when I say GT5 stands out the most, dont flame me because of PC sim racing, I think they are good, but need to update as well * but its a never ending process. Even Kaz said he is only half way there into true immersion of racing.

Actually, between Enthusia, Forza 2, and GT5P, I'd say console sims are reaching (or exceeding) the level of realism of most PC sims, particularly in the area of oversteer (always a favorite for a RWD junkie like me). They're still way off in terms of sophistication and detail, but I like a simple, easy-to-use sim.

On that note, in my opinion Live for Speed is the only real PC sim benchmark. The ISI-powered games (GTR/GTLegends, rFactor) can't seem to properly simulate anything but grip and understeer, and I can't get a feel for what the cars are doing.

So Wolf, what kind of WHEEL do you use to play GT5P?

As I mentioned above, I have a G25, but I never use it for console games because I have no simple or effective way to set it up with anything but my PC, and running console games through the capture card lowers the resolution and frame rate, and messes with the control response time.

I also don't have a PS3, as VIPERGTSR01 pointed out, but with the way GT5 is looking to turn out, I'll probably get one sometime after it's released.

 

[Kryz11]

HEHE, you talk so much, about it like you USE a wheel and Have a PS3 but you dont, but I consider every opinion about the game 👍

I also agree with you that console sim racing in some cases may be better sim then PC racing sim games.

To really tell difference that GT5P might be best sim out there is to sit for a week with a wheel, and then go back to other games. To me, after GT5P, I move my cockpit back to my PC room, and play with my PC sim racer games Everything was simple to drive like a walk in a park, only thing missing in GT5P is damage, and 24h day and night cycle with weather effects.

About the guy that aid that Ferrari challange is good game, 10/10
But the GUy that review GT5P he talks about how each car handles, and he said its spot on, he would know if cars go faster or slower on turns, So i still believe that guy.

 

[m7ammed]

I don't know why people are saying you can't feel the grip without FFB , I used to play with a sixaxis controller and have no problem feeling the grip , used a DS3 still no problem.

 

[amar212]

As an owner of both games, FF wheels for both games and a decent set of AV-technology in front of me, I can conclude the following:

- Forza 2 has astonishing representation of non-ABS braking, which is something that GT5 hasn't nailed to adequate level,
- Forza 2 has astonishing collision-physics which almost none other game hasn't come close to,
- Forza 2 has some great sounds to work with the graphics.

But.

Body roll is wrong, understeer/oversteer is wrong and S-class cars are a laugh. They're like rail-trains with jet-engine in z back, no finesse there at all. Sense of speed is also wrong, because cars are generally too fast in both visual/driving department. In all that fields, GT5 excels more-less.

AI is far on GT5 side, but if you can't see that GT5 AI is probably the best AI ever in the history of racing games, my point surely won't change your mind. So - whatever here.

Graphics comparation is useless - jaggies are present in the both games, while I prefer GT5 cleaner look to FM2's blurring. Also, I really do not care that trees in FM2 are full 3D models with every leaf modeled - I would personally prefer they gave us cockpits instead of 3D trees. My voice will FOREVER go to cardboard trees in favor of more important graphic issues.

Also, Microsoft's decision to make their own force feedback wheel is the biggest mistake of them all, since Turn10 didn't get the chance to work with proper software libraries which Logitech undoubtfully provides for their wheels.

Other piece of crap is flaw in system of assigning the controllers (one controller to one profile only) which didn't allow us the wheel users to play with wheel/contrlr in the same time. That led to frustration in may gameplay fields besides actual racing, and I really hope that Forza3 will come with support for Logitech's wheels, since Forza's driving engine has some great potential.

In conclusion - background-physics of GT5 are probably more complex then Forza's in many fields, and no matter which game gives "more attractive" feeling of driving, somehow I think that GT5's physics are more real-life accurate.

 

[Scaff]

For example, Tiff Needell was recently quoted as saying the following about a little-known game called Ferrari Challenge (I just found out about it recently on GTP's Nintendo forum) -- "Looks awesome, plays even better - 10/10." Is it really a perfect game? Is it even really a sim, or is it just good enough at pretending to be one that Tiff didn't experiment enough to find its flaws? Does Tiff even care?

While I fully intend to get a copy of Ferrari Challenge for the PS3 (it is looking like quite a solid game and I have an 8 year old who is Ferrari mad) the 'review' with Tiff is actually even more flawed than you suspect.

Have a guess who got paid by the developer to narate the driving school part of Ferrari Challenge? That's right, the man who gave it a 10/10 review, Mr Tiff Needell. To say he may have an interest in it doing well would be an understatement.

You may however be interested in this thread....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=94573

...while principally dedicated to the PS3 version, it does contain a lot of info about the game as a whole.


Now onto the subject of FM2 and GT5. I have to echo a lot of Amir's comments. FM and FM2 have a lot of strong points and a lot that I hope will help shape GT5 and other racing games (its already shaped Ferrari Challenges decal editor - which is a direct copy), however what it does not do well is handling.

While its happy to throw lots of numbers at you (that's both FM and FM2) they often appear to have little to do with what is going on with the actual car. Oversteer is overdone, understeer is almost non-existent and weight transfer the same.


Regards

Scaff

 

[unimental]

Forza 2 is optimized for use with a controller and provides a great feel using that input method. The MS Wheel is OK (great force feeback but wonky steering ratio). I'd say Forza 2 is a step ahead of GT5P on standard physics when using a controller or wheel. GT5P outshines anything else on a console when you combine pro physics with a good wheel. GT5P looks better than anything on the PC, especially when you look at the replays (wow, wow, wow).

As for the PC sim discussion, the "new guy" on the market (with lots of "old guys" behind the scenes, so to speak) is phenomenal, and has impressed even the hardcore LFS crowd who are notorious for scoffing at other sims. It's called iRacing, and there's nothing quite like it... making it hard for me personally to go back to other PC sims.

 

[Kryz11]

- Forza 2 has astonishing collision-physics which almost none other game hasn't come close to,


In conclusion - background-physics of GT5 are probably more complex then Forza's in many fields, and no matter which game gives "more attractive" feeling of driving, somehow I think that GT5's physics are more real-life accurate.

I seen Crash videos Of Forza2. Its a bit off when you hit other cars. I seen 2 cars going fast, other car hit the back of the 1st car, the first car spin out and came to complete stop still in middle of track within really short period of distance. If the HIT car would be going the same speed, and apply brakes, it would take longer for that car to stop with brakes on then being HIT!.. I dont get how cars stop faster when hit then with brakes applied?

But I agree on everything else you mentioned. I laugh when you say 3d trees and there is no cockpits! hahahah