Is GT5 physics running similar to forza 2's in the background?

[Wolfe]

HEHE, you talk so much, about it like you USE a wheel and Have a PS3 but you dont, but I consider every opinion about the game 👍

I did state outright that I have no experience with GT5P, and though I don't use my wheel for console games, I have tried both GT4 and EPR with the G25.

the GUy that review GT5P he talks about how each car handles, and he said its spot on, he would know if cars go faster or slower on turns, So i still believe that guy.

Oh, I think I remember seeing that review. You know, if you gave me a link you could show me exactly which one you're talking about.

- Forza 2 has astonishing representation of non-ABS braking, which is something that GT5 hasn't nailed to adequate level,
- Forza 2 has astonishing collision-physics which almost none other game hasn't come close to,
- Forza 2 has some great sounds to work with the graphics.

No arguments here. The non-ABS brake lock seems overdone with a controller, but I'm sure it's more natural with a wheel. Spinning out from collisions seems too easy to do, but it's more realistic than cars rubbing off of each other like 2-ton bars of soap.

While I fully intend to get a copy of Ferrari Challenge for the PS3 (it is looking like quite a solid game and I have an 8 year old who is Ferrari mad) the 'review' with Tiff is actually even more flawed than you suspect.

Have a guess who got paid by the developer to narate the driving school part of Ferrari Challenge? That's right, the man who gave it a 10/10 review, Mr Tiff Needell. To say he may have an interest in it doing well would be an understatement.

I actually already knew that, but neglected to mention it. I would still find his appraisal of the game suspicious even if he had nothing to do with it. The fact that he was involved only makes things worse.

Still, it could be neat to get virtual driving lessons from ol' Tiff.

And thanks for the link.

Body roll is wrong, understeer/oversteer is wrong and S-class cars are a laugh.

FM and FM2 have a lot of strong points and a lot that I hope will help shape GT5 and other racing games (its already shaped Ferrari Challenges decal editor - which is a direct copy), however what it does not do well is handling.

While its happy to throw lots of numbers at you (that's both FM and FM2) they often appear to have little to do with what is going on with the actual car. Oversteer is overdone, understeer is almost non-existent and weight transfer the same.

Again, no arguments here. Forza 2 reminds me of GT3, and falls short of Enthusia. The telemetry, as Scaff mentioned, reminds me why I'm skeptical of in-game measured variables, and the handling model itself is both simplified and not extremely convincing.

However, in terms of "feel" I think it has GT4 beat, even if cornering speeds and other details are off. As Amar said, it has the advantage in brake locking. Also, powerful cars can kick out the tail easily if you're not careful with the throttle, and though weight transfer is practically transparent and doesn't seem to play much of a role, trail braking and mid-corner braking can still be used to affect the behavior of the car. Understeer is underpronounced, but there, and the oversteer would be workable if the cars arced more towards the inside of the corner, as they should.

The game also has enough nice features (eg. powertrain swaps, online play) that I think it's still very much worth playing.

As for the PC sim discussion, the "new guy" on the market (with lots of "old guys" behind the scenes, so to speak) is phenomenal, and has impressed even the hardcore LFS crowd who are notorious for scoffing at other sims. It's called iRacing, and there's nothing quite like it... making it hard for me personally to go back to other PC sims.

I've heard good things. I'll have to check it out sometime.

 

[Scaff]

Just a quick comment in regard to ABS and brake lock-up performance between GT5P and FM2.

Keep in mind that the second you turn off the ABS in GT5 you are totally at the mercy of the brake bias settings, which are 5/5 as standard, a setting no real car would ever run with at all. To correctly evaluate the non-ABS performance of GT5 you need to set the brake bias for the car (for most I would suggest starting around 4 at the front and 1 at the back) as it makes a huge difference.

FM2 massively underplays the importance of brake bias (as almost all games do), GT5 is one of the first on a console to allow it to play its real role.

So please guys, actually look at your brake bias settings (as you would have to in the real world) before giving a final evaluation of it. In closing if you want to see just how important correct brake bias settings are, try setting a car up with 10 rear and 1 front and then drive a lap of Fuji at speed. Instant rear lock up and loss of control.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Motominded]

I have to say, after playing GT5P with a wheel, i have a hard time picking up Forza anymore. The only issue i have had is when the cars go off road and bring up dust, it does get a little pixlated. But thats my only issue.

Just a quick comment in regard to ABS and brake lock-up performance between GT5P and FM2.

Keep in mind that the second you turn off the ABS in GT5 you are totally at the mercy of the brake bias settings, which are 5/5 as standard, a setting no real car would ever run with at all. To correctly evaluate the non-ABS performance of GT5 you need to set the brake bias for the car (for most I would suggest starting around 4 at the front and 1 at the back) as it makes a huge difference.

FM2 massively underplays the importance of brake bias (as almost all games do), GT5 is one of the first on a console to allow it to play its real role.

So please guys, actually look at your brake bias settings (as you would have to in the real world) before giving a final evaluation of it. In closing if you want to see just how important correct brake bias settings are, try setting a car up with 10 rear and 1 front and then drive a lap of Fuji at speed. Instant rear lock up and loss of control.


Regards

Scaff

*goes to experiment*

 

[Kryz11]

I agree Scaff, I always TURN My ABS to 0, and leve it to 5/5 I never thought that GT5 is basically only game to use that feature.
I think someone needs to create a car list thread with REALISTIC brake bias, Camber angles, and etc. I don't know if I am wrong or wright, But at PP setups all cars are 0 front and 0 back with camber angles. I bet some cars in real life have bit of camber.

4/1 brake bias. I'll give it a try.

 

[Scaff]

4/1 should give you a much better car under braking that is a lot less prone to early lock-up (the 5/5 locks up early because of the 5 at the rear - the weight shifts off the back under braking and the 5 setting is just too high).

Keep in mind that 4/1 will not be perfect for every car, so a bit of tuning will be needed, but its a much better starting point than 5/5.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Vaxen]

Scaff,

I can understand the thinking behind a heavy forward brake balance due to weight shift, but that each car is different.

Would an FF car benefit more from the reverse? On this week's time attack Timppaq is using F=3, R=8 for the Honda Integra, and it seems to work well as it allows slightly later braking in the switchbacks (and a bit more steering input under braking). This is also with ABS=1, which may throw a wrench into the whole equation.

I'm just trying to understand more about the theory here.

 

[unimental]

Um, Forza 2 does allow for both brake bias and overall pressure settings (with purchase of full race brake upgrade, of course). This is the same scenario as pretty much every PC racing sim.

That said, GT's first attempt at no-ABS is nearly perfect once you play with the combined bias/power settings as per Scaff's comments.

 

[Kryz11]

FF, RWD, AWD, I think we need bigger brake for front then back. When you brake/decelerate, weight moves to front no matter if you have FF, or AWD car. Its same concept. And Yes because you have abs to 1 means no WHEEL lock, Turn it off to 0, and you will lock the back tires rather quickly, quicker then RWD car since there is no power in the back tires.

 

[unimental]

Set the front to 10 and the rear to 1 (with ABS off) to have some fun:

 

[Motominded]

Set the front to 10 and the rear to 1 (with ABS off) to have some fun:

Standing burnout, i didn't think it was possible. Great great great!

 

[Scaff]

Scaff,

I can understand the thinking behind a heavy forward brake balance due to weight shift, but that each car is different.

Would an FF car benefit more from the reverse? On this week's time attack Timppaq is using F=3, R=8 for the Honda Integra, and it seems to work well as it allows slightly later braking in the switchbacks (and a bit more steering input under braking). This is also with ABS=1, which may throw a wrench into the whole equation.

I'm just trying to understand more about the theory here.

ABS set to 1 will throw it out the window completely.

Brake bias will always be biased to the front on any car, trust me after more than a decade in the motor industry not a single manufacture would do otherwise - unless they like dead customers.

Brake bias exists to allow each tyre to do as much towards stopping a car as it can without locking up. Load always shifts forward under braking, and as grip is a combination of load * grip, the end with the most load will be the one with the most grip. Therefore it can do the greater share of braking before lock-up, and that's the reason why brake bias is always biased towards the front.

Now ABS in GT5 does get around a lot of the problems with heavy rear bias, but as I have already said give a car a go with a set-up of 10 to the rear and 1 to the front, turn ABS off and take it for a spin. Then let me know if you think a strong rear bias is the way to go without ABS.

For a lot more info on brake bias, load distribution and its effect of grip and much more, download the guides linked to in my sig.

Um, Forza 2 does allow for both brake bias and overall pressure settings (with purchase of full race brake upgrade, of course). This is the same scenario as pretty much every PC racing sim.

That said, GT's first attempt at no-ABS is nearly perfect once you play with the combined bias/power settings as per Scaff's comments.

I didn't say that FM2 did not allow you to adjust brake bias, etc (and apologies if it came across that way), simply that with ABS switched off brake bias does not play the strong role in controlling a car it should do.


Regards

Scaff

 

[unimental]

I didn't say that FM2 did not allow you to adjust brake bias, etc (and apologies if it came across that way), simply that with ABS switched off brake bias does not play the strong role in controlling a car it should do.

Ah, gotcha (and agreed). I think the role reduction has something to do with Forza 2's feeling of extra "grippiness" even on stock tires.

 

[amar212]

Brake bias is a second/to/none option from the very first GT game and it's usage is crucial to balancing/setting-up the car properly.

However, I still find Forza's none-ABS "feel" much more "natural" in terms of "How-Brake-Lock-Up-Should-Be-Implemented-In-Video-Game-Simulator".

But, GT5's "none-ABS" "feeling" is very close to Forza's, and I guess new update will solve that duel for good.

 

[Earth]

Thanks for the info Scaff

It makes perfect sense. That's why pickup trucks almost always have drums on the rear, because the rear is so light compared to the front which means it can lock up much easier

A front engine car with disc brakes on all 4 wheels will have smaller brake pads on the rear because of the weight distribution.

I'll try giving less brakes to the rear in GT5P and see if it's easier to control lockup with ABS turned off.

 

[AERO_HDT]

Makes you wonder how someone can come up with a 1/6 brake bias tune and suggest to switch the ABS off...

 

[Robin]

The A.I.is awful and how will GT5 deliver without being downgraded?

I agree, things can only be downgraded as more content is fit on the the full games disk. As it is (I dont know if anyone has noticed) but the cars appear blurryier in GT5P since the update which came with more cars which are probably further optimised and compressed.

The problem is GT5 is trying to hard.

I think it often trys to hard in the wrong areas, or doesnt give as much attention to other aspects of the game. I personally want a solid online system and lots of customisation as seen in Forza.

Remember GT4rologue was downgrded for GT4.

Yup sure do, although I think I was the only one at the time who noticed it!

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60271

The track evironments and textures are terrible but I feel Kazunori must feel the same as Hideo Kojima! Sony promised them a console that would blow them away and let them make the game they always wanted and sorry to say but sony did not deliver.

I also feel to some extent that the tracks don't that great, its like they focus all on the cars.. the tarmac is all shiny and one colour and the detail is not as rich as it could be... and we need tire marks!

Robin

 

[Jay]

Standing burnout, i didn't think it was possible. Great great great!

Standing burnouts are possible without any setting changes (except TCS off), a little roll back first helps a lot.

 

[Wolfe]

Brake bias will always be biased to the front on any car, trust me after more than a decade in the motor industry not a single manufacture would do otherwise - unless they like dead customers.

What about 911s? Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they're still front-biased, but are they less front-biased due to the fact that weight distribution under braking is closer to 50/50 than most cars?

 

[Dave A]

Obviousely the fact that more weight is at the back would and should be taken into consideration. But even a 911 will shift the majority of it's weight to the front under heavy braking. If you see a car with soft susension you can really see how weight shifting works, rear engined car or not, the weight always goes forwards under deceleration, the quicker you decelerate the more weight goes forwards. Under heavy braking the ammount of weight shifted will always be high.

 

[Scaff]

What about 911s? Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they're still front-biased, but are they less front-biased due to the fact that weight distribution under braking is closer to 50/50 than most cars?

The 911 runs a static weight distribution of around 38/62 front to rear, and with a relatively short wheelbase (a factor that increases load transfer) they are going to end up with the majority of the load over the front in hard braking.

You are right that the brake bias would be less extreme than on a front, or even rear, wheel drive car; but its still going to be a front bias.

The 911 turbo weights in at around 1,600 kilos (approx), so static that's a split of 608 front / 992 rear. It would only need a shift of 12.5% of the overall weight (easily achieved under braking) to exceed 50% load at the front end and require a front brake bias.

All that aside you would still want a front bias anyway, if either end is going to lock first you want it to be the front. When the fronts lock first the grip at the back end helps keep the car relatively stable (it sort of acts like the flights on an arrow). If the rears lock first its like loosing the flights off the arrow, it throws the stability of the car out massively at the rear, not the sort of thing you want on a 911.

It does however help explain one of the 911's advantages, because its a closer to equal split under braking than almost any other layout (aside from some very long wheels base and well set-up MR cars) it allows the most use of all four tyres under hard braking.

I know you ride a bike so you must know the effect hard braking has on load transfer, with the back tyre playing almost no role at all on a bike when you need to stop in a hurry.

:tup:for the question - its a good one.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Earth]

Okay, without any experience on GT5P I can't exactly contribute a lot to this thread, but I can add my $0.02 on the wheel/controller issue.

Several of you are saying feedback is an issue, particularly with the SixAxis' lack of rumble. What you may have not considered is that different people rely on different forms of feedback. I myself am very much a visual-oriented driver. I could race in Enthusia all day with the sound muted and a controller with broken rumble. Audio cues and good force feedback are certainly helpful, but do nothing but harm if they're implemented poorly.

When you communicate with people you use more then visual refrences.

For example you can use visual to tell if someone is angry if they frown. But you can also tell they are angry by their actions, and the sounds they make. Some people can do a good job of hiding whether they are angry or not, and if you rely soley on visual you may never know their emotional status.

The same applies to a car. If you rely too much on visual references to figure out what she wants or needs you will never be able to fully understand her.

A car talks to you in GT5P through the sound it's engine and tires make and the presence or absence (which is usually gradual) of traction you can feel in a FF wheel. You can wait until you start to see the car get out of shape before you try and correct it by only using visual but you will never be able to fully understand the car you are driving which means you will have a tough time pushing a harder to drive car to the limit. If you tried to get to know a girl by just looking at each other and making facial expressions how far would you go?

I have driven cars in GT5P without sound, but I would lose speed and would have a tough time controlling cars without all my senses working as you would in real life

I think most like the FF and don't think it is implemented poorly.

Quick example, GTP member Chadwicksracing was having a tough time driving the cars with a SIXAXIS, especially the Ford GT Test Car. He bought a DFGT and his speed has shot through the roof. So if you're struggling with a controller do yourself a favor and get one of the big 3 wheels, the DFP, DFGT or G25

There is a learning curve, some have jumped over the curve like Chadwicksracing others it takes some time but a FFB is the only way to go.

Maybe RedOak is right and GT5P is vague. Maybe you guys are right and it isn't with a FFB wheel. I don't know. What I do know is that it'd be kinda embarrassing if a $40 demo only available on the most-expensive console of this generation required another $100+ or $200+ investment for a wheel just to feel "right."

Every PC sim I know of basicly requires a steering wheel to be competitive. I find that realistic, it upsets me that some drivers can be so fast in GT5P with a controller, but I understand why PD made the game just hard enough where they wouldn't be at too much of a disadvantage. GT is much more mainstream then a PC sim.

Besides, if you really want to enjoy a driving game a wheel is the way to go. The DFP works fine with GT5P that's what I use, and it's well under $100 now.

Being a visual-oriented driver, I know from experience that realism and reliable visual cues go hand-in-hand. If GT5P is as grippy and communicative as you guys say, then you should be able to see it, "feel" it, just by watching the cars move onscreen. If the only way to feel grip in the game is to feel your DFP or G25 tug on your hand, then Polyphony Digital has some work to do before GT5's release.

You can drive the cars with SIXAXIS with no rumble and no sound, but you'll be at a disadvantage racing the tougher cars against drivers using sound and a FFB wheel. Personally I find that realistic.

 

[amar212]

Every PC sim I know of basicly requires a steering wheel to be competitive. I find that realistic, it upsets me that some drivers can be so fast in GT5P with a controller, but I understand why PD made the game just hard enough where they wouldn't be at too much of a disadvantage.

Hear, hear.

 

[Mad Matt]

Under hard braking I don't think it's make much difference whether you're driving a 911, or a Mondeo. On the other hand I've never driven a 911. You can see with all cars I've ever looked at in detail that the front brakes are either bigger, vented or both compared to the rear (or discs front, drums rear). It's a little disappointing that GT5P defaults to an unrealistic 50/50, although well done to Scaff for spotting that.

I drove a Kart a few years ago whoch only braked at the back. At 70mph when you hit the brakes hard it would start to "dance" which was your warning that it's next step would be to swap ends. I'm itching to see if it's the same with brake bias all the way to the back in GT5P but haven't had the time yet.

One other thing which may not have been mentioned is EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) that comes as standard on a lot of cars these days. There are loads of different implementations which do more or less the same thing in conjunction with the ABS. In real life my old PT Cruiser had ABS but not EBD. Under hard braking it could be a little unstable. My Mrs car has got EBD and you can feel the car as it catches the start of instability and is correcting it. It's almost ghost like, I feel the problem starting I start to move the wheel and adjust the brakes to compensate and can already feel the car doing the same, "magic" :-)

I can't say I've felt GT5P model these differences (in my experience each manufacturers system feels slightly different) but that's partly because the brake pedal is "dead" and partly because I've never driven most of the cars in the game in real life.

For me the "dead" pedal is one of the biggest problems, along with not feeling the G-forces you get in real life. As I think Wolfe is saying the game has to compensate for some of these things with visual clues, or wheel vibrations. It's for this second part that I think the game is more enjoyable with a wheel.

 

[Wolfe]

When you communicate with people you use more then visual refrences...
...
...There is a learning curve, some have jumped over the curve like Chadwicksracing others it takes some time but a FFB is the only way to go.

No thanks, I'm not looking for driving lessons. You worry about the things you pay attention to while driving, and I'll worry about the things I pay attention to while driving.

Like NoxNoctis Umbra did, you seem to have skipped the part where I said I don't have GT5P (nor a PS3). If I did, I probably wouldn't have anything bad to say about the force feedback (not that I was ever questioning it), and you can bet I'd play the game with a controller, even with my G25 sitting less than three feet away. It's how I play console sims, believe me, I can deal with it. If you can't, then you're just a different kind of sim driver. It's no big deal.

Every PC sim I know of basicly requires a steering wheel to be competitive. I find that realistic, it upsets me that some drivers can be so fast in GT5P with a controller, but I understand why PD made the game just hard enough where they wouldn't be at too much of a disadvantage. GT is much more mainstream then a PC sim.

Every PC sim I know of basically isn't programmed to support controllers very well. There's nothing "unfair" about filtered input; all it does is make steering smoother, it doesn't corner for you. I apologize, but I think it's funny that you're upset over the fact that other people can be fast with a control setup that is different from yours. It's also pretty self-centered, considering not everyone can afford to splurge on something like a $100+ accessory that only works with a fraction of games.

Don't go thinking PD compromised your physics just to cater to "those darned controller users," either. Even the most realistic PC sims would be a blast with proper controller support. The compromise simply comes from the fact that GT is the most popular console driving sim on the market, and has a wide range of customers to satisfy.

You can drive the cars with SIXAXIS with no rumble and no sound, but you'll be at a disadvantage racing the tougher cars against drivers using sound and a FFB wheel. Personally I find that realistic.

Personally, I find that to be a good reason to turn the sound on and invest in a wheel. I don't know what you find "realistic" about controller drivers being slower, considering there's no such thing as a controller-driven production car, much less one driven by deaf people.

In all seriousness, why care so much about this if controller drivers are at a disadvantage to you? With a wheel you've got more precision and control; you got what you paid for, and they have to either deal with what they've got or buy a wheel. Everyone makes their own decision -- why is your choice the only option?

 

[Scaff]

I drove a Kart a few years ago whoch only braked at the back. At 70mph when you hit the brakes hard it would start to "dance" which was your warning that it's next step would be to swap ends. I'm itching to see if it's the same with brake bias all the way to the back in GT5P but haven't had the time yet.

Give it a go, you can set the brake bias up to be Front 0 and Rear 10, switch off ABS and its just like braking in a kart. At speed the car just wants to swap ends, not practical, but it does illustrate the point well (and its quite funny just trying to get around a track).

One other thing which may not have been mentioned is EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) that comes as standard on a lot of cars these days. There are loads of different implementations which do more or less the same thing in conjunction with the ABS. In real life my old PT Cruiser had ABS but not EBD. Under hard braking it could be a little unstable. My Mrs car has got EBD and you can feel the car as it catches the start of instability and is correcting it. It's almost ghost like, I feel the problem starting I start to move the wheel and adjust the brakes to compensate and can already feel the car doing the same, "magic" :-)

Good spot, the subject of EBD has also crossed my mind as well. In GT5 when you have ABS set to 1 or higher the brake bias starts to play a much less important role, which would certainly suggest some form of EBD in play. It also would not surprise me if PD had allied this across the board, so any car than has ABS switched on also gets EBD. After all we have quite a few cars in GT5 that don't even have ABS (F40 and the TVRs off the top of my head).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Earth]

No thanks, I'm not looking for driving lessons. You worry about the things you pay attention to while driving, and I'll worry about the things I pay attention to while driving.

Like NoxNoctis Umbra did, you seem to have skipped the part where I said I don't have GT5P (nor a PS3). If I did, I probably wouldn't have anything bad to say about the force feedback (not that I was ever questioning it), and you can bet I'd play the game with a controller, even with my G25 sitting less than three feet away. It's how I play console sims, believe me, I can deal with it. If you can't, then you're just a different kind of sim driver. It's no big deal.

I caught the part where you said you don't have GT5P before I made my post, and pretty much everyone on this forum prefers a wheel over a controller, even if they aren't as fast with it right out of the gate and it has a bit of a learning curve. It's funner to us, but I guess not you. OK, but you should really try it. I was just like you for a long time, I didn't want to invest $100+ into a wheel for GT4 but I ran into a cheap DFP at gamestop one day and the rest was history.

Every PC sim I know of basically isn't programmed to support controllers very well. There's nothing "unfair" about filtered input; all it does is make steering smoother, it doesn't corner for you. I apologize, but I think it's funny that you're upset over the fact that other people can be fast with a control setup that is different from yours. It's also pretty self-centered, considering not everyone can afford to splurge on something like a $100+ accessory that only works with a fraction of games.

Actually when I bought this DFP 2 years ago it was only $80 brand new at Gamestop. Must have been a sale or something. I'm very hesitant to replace it with a DFGT or G25 because those wheels are $100+.

I'm sure you can find a similiar price somewhere now. $80 is only $25 above a new Dual Shock 3.

The DFP and G25 (not sure about the DFGT) work with numerous racing games on the PS2 and PS3 and almost every PC race sim. To me if I want to drive a car in a game I have to use a wheel unless it's a burnout game or motorstorm.

As for being upset over fast controller drivers, well I would hope that if I invested more money into a better steering apparatus then them I would be rewarded with more control and subsequently better lap times, less tire wear etc.

I remember saying way back in the days before GT4 came out that wheel users should have an advantage, but controller users should not be completley left behind.

Don't go thinking PD compromised your physics just to cater to "those darned controller users," either. Even the most realistic PC sims would be a blast with proper controller support. The compromise simply comes from the fact that GT is the most popular console driving sim on the market, and has a wide range of customers to satisfy.

Maybe your right and PD didn't compromise physics realism to accomodate controller users. I too have seen some users have decent control over their cars in very tough PC sims using a joystick or something other then a wheel.

However like in GT5P they are few. The majority of the top times in MR, FR cars using professional physics are drivers using a wheel.

The GT Academy used the 350Z and Eiger on N1 tires as the basis for their time trial because they know that combo would weed out 99%+ of the controller users because they simply can't keep the pace there.

Personally, I find that to be a good reason to turn the sound on and invest in a wheel. I don't know what you find "realistic" about controller drivers being slower, considering there's no such thing as a controller-driven production car, much less one driven by deaf people.

Well controller drivers use a 1 inch joystick or worst the D-Pad to turn a virtual car running on simulation physics. Then they use R2/L2 trigger buttons for throttle and brakes.

Wheel users have a 10" diamater wheel and a near full size brake and gas pedal.

If the simulation physics are anywhere near real, you would think that if I drove a real car with a DFP attched to it I would have more control and would be quicker then someone using a SIXAXIS' 1" joystic and triggers.

In all seriousness, why care so much about this if controller drivers are at a disadvantage to you? With a wheel you've got more precision and control; you got what you paid for, and they have to either deal with what they've got or buy a wheel. Everyone makes their own decision -- why is your choice the only option?

They're only at a worthwhile disadvantage with certain cars

My choice isn't the only option, but to me and I'm sure the majority of others here at GTP it's the funnest and most realistic option.

I first really wanted a wheel when my thumbs hurt for a couple days after I ran a 3 and a half hour 1000km enduro at Suzuka in GT4. If you're an endurance racing fan you really should pick up a wheel.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Wolfe, as I said before I know how good you can drive with a controller (that Mustang video at Dragon Range downhill, or the 787B in the Nurb always come to my mind). So, I won't dispute that it can be done at a top level.

I also won't dispute that game developers - even in driving games - must make their games playable with a controller, because casual gamers and/or novice gamers can't be forced to buy a wheel, after buying a console and games to play on it.

But ... I really don't understand why do you have a G25 and still play console games using a controller. Even if you do it very well. They're DRIVING games. How can the extra-pleasure of playing them with a wheel and pedals be irrelevant to you?

IMHO, the wheel adds to the game-play experience. Even if I can play some games with the controller (and I can do it in all GT games so far, not the case in EPR), the pleasure I get from it is definitely enhanced if I'm using a wheel.

 

[Kryz11]

I think this thread should now be called. Is GT5 similar to PC racing sim games.

 

[Dave A]

If he's anytihng like me, he can't be bothered constantly switching his wheel from the PC to the PS. I had that problem with GT4, but even with the wheel I didn't really enjoy the driving aspect of it, certain issues with the physics really stood out to me and killed my enjoyment. But with GT5 it's different, I have tried with the controller and I can do it, but I'm having a much bettert time at it with the wheel and I'm enjoying using the wheel far more than I did in GT4.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Fair enough Dave, the "Physics issues" of GT4 (as you put it) made you stop playing it with the wheel. I can also guess that, from a certain moment on, you didn't play it very often so you didn't bother to set up the wheel for it.

But, when playing a game that requires very sensitive and precise driving, like EPR was in the PS2 and (although differently, I'm yet to make a direct comparison between them) GT5 is now in the PS3, wouldn't you switch the wheel from your PC to your console?

Btw, how did you play EPR?