Is Motor racing truly a competitive sport?

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iridegravity

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Read and interesting thread about whether or not race car drivers are all that special compared to the traditional sports athlete. It went a lot of different directions with lots of different opinions.

Thought i would try to spur a little debate as to whether or not a drivers championship in motor sport is the least competitive form of competition there is.

I think so. Obviously a spec class is a little different. But the vast majority of racing is not done that way. It's pretty much about who got the best ride and greatness can rarely be attributed to a driver. It's more about the machine and the team putting it together. The Driver just has to follow through and not blow it. There are exceptions, but I believe this to be the general rule.

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A lot of people are asking how it's not competitive etc. That is not what I am saying. Were talking about the Scale of it's competitiveness compared to other things. Particularly whether there is a less competitive sport out there. Think of it like this. Football is highly competitive because of a salary cap. Baseball slightly less so because of a lack of a cap. Motor Sport, and F1 as a shining example, is hardly competitive, especially from a drivers/athlete standpoint. Please read all posts, or at least all my posts, if you intend to debate with me, before responding. No shortage of people here that are attempting to argue with me on areas I have already conceded or pointed out myself. So please make sure you have something fresh and relevant to say please. Like maybe Golf is less competitive or something. That might make sense.
 
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Im not sure I agree what if a driver was in a team with the greatest machine in the comp but he isnt aggressive enough to use it. I think the driver still needs to be skilled enough to be able to out drive the pack
 
I'm a driver myself. The answer to your question is yes and no in my opinion. It isn't fair that other people have more money, but you can't just sit around and complain about it. Race what you have, if your really that good then you can beat the other drivers. I think racing is still very competitive. You have to be competitive to be able to jump into the race car. You have to have that hunger and desire to win.
 
thelvynau
Im not sure I agree what if a driver was in a team with the greatest machine in the comp but he isnt aggressive enough to use it. I think the driver still needs to be skilled enough to be able to out drive the pack
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Right. But I am pretty sure Lewis Hamilton or Alonso or Schumacher, and in my dreams, Montoya would have won the championship this year in F1 if they were in the RB Chassis.

I think most of the drivers are in the same zip code with a few exceptions for standouts like Hamilton, who in my opinion has the most raw talent.
 
iridegravity
Right. But I am pretty sure Lewis Hamilton or Alonso or Schumacher, and in my dreams, Montoya would have won the championship this year in F1 if they were in the RB Chassis.

I think most of the drivers are in the same zip code with a few exceptions for standouts like Hamilton, who in my opinion has the most raw talent.
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Thats why I didnt disagree out right I see your point though almost all of them can be competative with a decent car
 
Think about it. S Vettel does not even have to beat his team mate, the one with the best shot, to win the title. In fact, The car is tailored to his liking and more resources are dedicated to him. If Webber were strong enough to over come those factors, he would have to deal with team orders.
 
iridegravity
Think about it. S Vettel does not even have to beat his team mate, the one with the best shot, to win the title. In fact, The car is tailored to his liking and more resources are dedicated to him. If Webber were strong enough to over come those factors, he would have to deal with team orders.
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Same thing with Schumacher at Ferrari
 
Racing is a team sport. All the pit crews are competing. All the engineers. The strategists. Just as much as the drivers are competing.
 
gogatrs
Racing is a team sport. All the pit crews are competing. All the engineers. The strategists. Just as much as the drivers are competing.
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That's why I am saying the "Drivers" championship is second to the constructors and really doesn't carry much weight. The Constructors usually boils down to just a couple of teams with a real chance as well though. It's more like a competition between huge corporations for profits to fund the racing.
I just think it kind of lessens the competitiveness of it compared to other sports.

I can't even think of a single small budget race team that has overcome the spending divide that defines motor racing. Anyone correct me on that?
 
iridegravity
That's why I am saying the "Drivers" championship is second to the constructors and really doesn't carry much weight. The Constructors usually boils down to just a couple of teams with a real chance as well though. It's more like a competition between huge corporations for profits to fund the racing.
I just think it kind of lessens the competitiveness of it compared to other sports.

I can't even think of a single small budget race team that has overcome the spending divide that defines motor racing. Anyone correct me on that?
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Unfortunately that's how it is. Can't do anything about it. We know from watching F1 and all the other racing series on TV. It's like that in every form of racing.
 
Perhaps a competition which they drive the same stock vehicle that would determine the best driver.
 
Small_Fryz
Why do we have 3 threads?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=222387
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=232304
And of course.. this one.

Aren't they all pretty much about the same thing?
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One wandered off on its own direction and quietly died (and as such merging it in would make a mess) and this one and the other are currently different enough.

However it is a close call and if they rapidly wander into the exact same areas they will be merged.


Scaff
 
I don't see a difference between motorsport or any other professional team sport. The teams with the biggest budgets will always rise to the top. Whether that's Redbull or Manchester City.

Spending power is the difference between winning a championship or league and being an also-ran.
 
TheCracker
I don't see a difference between motorsport or any other professional team sport. The teams with the biggest budgets will always rise to the top. Whether that's Redbull or Manchester City.

Spending power is the difference between winning a championship or league and being an also-ran.
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I love the fact you mentioned Manchester City in that awesome team
 
How can you possibly say they are not competing?


Motorsport is literally no different than any other sport. The fact that the majority of the time the best-built cars win makes no difference at all. If anything, that's what the teams are competing to have: the best car and team. It's the same with the best teams in any other sport. NFL organizations have offensive and defensive coordinators, large squads, scouts, etc., and they're all working to build the best, and most efficient unit that has the strongest chance of winning on the field.

It's like saying the Yankees or Phillies didn't compete this year simply because they had the best roster and staff. :odd:
 
iridegravity
Read and interesting thread about whether or not race car drivers are all that special compared to the traditional sports athlete. It went a lot of different directions with lots of different opinions.

Thought i would try to spur a little debate as to whether or not a drivers championship in motor sport is the least competitive form of competition there is.

I think so. Obviously a spec class is a little different. But the vast majority of racing is not done that way. It's pretty much about who got the best ride and greatness can rarely be attributed to a driver. It's more about the machine and the team putting it together. The Driver just has to follow through and not blow it. There are exceptions, but I believe this to be the general rule.
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Watch out, you'll bring down the furry of the super moderator gods.

Dale Earnhardt Junior & Mark Webber's shrines are not to be moved or touched after they've been cleaned & waxed in the morning. :sly:
 
TheCracker
Famine daan and Scaff are furries? :odd:

Different strokes for different folks i guess!
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Guy makes obnoxious claims and seems to enjoy refusing to consider any kind of legitimate reasoning. And now he says the mods are being unreasonable, when in fact the vast majority of the people here are disagreeing with him, not just the mods.
 
If dicing it out with a bunch of other drivers while going at a high speed isn't competitive, then I don't know what is...Curling?
 
Sach_F1
How can you possibly say they are not competing?


Motorsport is literally no different than any other sport. The fact that the majority of the time the best-built cars win makes no difference at all. If anything, that's what the teams are competing to have: the best car and team. It's the same with the best teams in any other sport. NFL organizations have offensive and defensive coordinators, large squads, scouts, etc., and they're all working to build the best, and most efficient unit that has the strongest chance of winning on the field.

It's like saying the Yankees or Phillies didn't compete this year simply because they had the best roster and staff. :odd:
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The Phillies and Yanks both failed to take hardware this year so that is Kind of proving my point.

The difference to me is the prospective pool of winners. AKA the teams and drivers that actually have a chance at victory.


Consistently in F1, your talking about Mclaren, ferrari, and this year, Redbull as the only teams with a legitimate chance to compete for a title. Given that The Ferrari and Redbull teams follow team orders, So only Alonso and Vettel can be said to have a title shot along with Button and Hamilton at mclaren. Were talking about 4 drivers with a legitimate shot=not that cometitive in my opinion. I know there are a lot more intracacies to follow. Such as inter team rivalries for top driver etc where competition is fierce, but thats within one team. The fact that Toyota, with all of its corporate cash, went home with it's tail between it's legs, is not lost on me. I still find F1 fascinating as a technical exercise and corporate power struggle among elite auto manufactures, but in a lot of seasons, the competition and stories to go with are lacking. Like the one this year.

You can't narrow baseball down to just a couple teams with a shot. The teams that spend money are consistently good, but it doesn't always end in a championship obviously. The game is not played on paper or salaries and spending.

F1 is most definitely won on paper, computers and in the wind tunnel before the driver hits the track for the most part. It's a physics fact.


Does anyone here think the landscape is likely to change anytime soon? Where it wont be Mclaren or Ferrari or whoever Adrian Newey works for taking home all the hardware. I know Braun GP and Button pulled one out once, but that was just Ross Braun carrying over Ferrari tech and landing in the sweet spot of Formula 1 politics and back room deals. I hope Lotus is challenging for Championships soon or Williams finds its way to the front of the grid again. It's so much more interesting watching when it's more competitive than it is now.
 
iridegravity
Does anyone here think the landscape is likely to change anytime soon? Where it wont be Mclaren or Ferrari or whoever Adrian Newey works for taking home all the hardware. I know Braun GP and Button pulled one out once, but that was just Ross Braun carrying over Ferrari tech and landing in the sweet spot of Formula 1 politics and back room deals. I hope Lotus is challenging for Championships soon or Williams finds its way to the front of the grid again. It's so much more interesting watching when it's more competitive than it is now.
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Take a look at history and you will see a wide variety of teams winning championships.

Should also mention that Mclaren also does team orders. They always have and always will.
Ferrari was the only one that did not give a damn about doing it in a sneaky way because they feel that it´s them that pays the bills and thus they should have alot more to say.

Now that team orders are legal just means the teams don´t have to be sneaky with it.

You should also note that F1 is just like Football. Barcelona and Real Madrid is always the two fighting for the title. Champions league for the most part is won by a handful of teams.

Ask any of the top, middle or backmarker teams if F1 isn´t competitive. It´s probably the most competitive sport in the world because sucess is something you don´t achieve over night unless you find a loophole in the regulations.

Take a look at Red Bull and see how long it took them to win a championship for example.

It´s not about how much money you have. Sure you need dough to finance the developments but it´s not the money that brings sucess, it´s the brains behind the team and the driver that does that.
 
Sach_F1
How can you possibly say they are not competing?


Motorsport is literally no different than any other sport. The fact that the majority of the time the best-built cars win makes no difference at all. If anything, that's what the teams are competing to have: the best car and team. It's the same with the best teams in any other sport. NFL organizations have offensive and defensive coordinators, large squads, scouts, etc., and they're all working to build the best, and most efficient unit that has the strongest chance of winning on the field.

It's like saying the Yankees or Phillies didn't compete this year simply because they had the best roster and staff. :odd:
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I did not say they were not competing. I am only eluding to the level of it's competitiveness as compared to other sports where actual will of an athlete can overcome the will of the man he's facing. No one from the back of the grid is ever going to pass any one from the front because he's having a great day, season or whatever. Ask any driver other than S. Vettel if they felt they had the pace to compete for a championship and they will all tell you "NO The RB Chassis was just too good this year". Every single one of them will also tell you they would have had a chance had they been in the Red Bull Chassis. That's the competitive imbalance I am discussing. Of course they all compete. It's just that a very select few, a smaller percentage than any other sport I can think of, are legit contenders.
 
hampus_dh
Take a look at history and you will see a wide variety of teams winning championships.

Should also mention that Mclaren also does team orders. They always have and always will.
Ferrari was the only one that did not give a damn about doing it in a sneaky way because they feel that it´s them that pays the bills and thus they should have alot more to say.

Now that team orders are legal just means the teams don´t have to be sneaky with it.

You should also note that F1 is just like Football. Barcelona and Real Madrid is always the two fighting for the title. Champions league for the most part is won by a handful of teams.

Ask any of the top, middle or backmarker teams if F1 isn´t competitive. It´s probably the most competitive sport in the world because sucess is something you don´t achieve over night unless you find a loophole in the regulations.

Take a look at Red Bull and see how long it took them to win a championship for example.

It´s not about how much money you have. Sure you need dough to finance the developments but it´s not the money that brings sucess, it´s the brains behind the team and the driver that does that.
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Dude. It's all about the money. How much do you think it took Red Bull, with probably some of the deepest pockets in the F1 field, to Land Newey. The current Guru of F1. You don't think all those engineers work for salaries paid by the highest bidder? The contracts for engineers are probably more valuable in racing than the drivers. Your missing it or refusing to except that money taints all forms of sports, but in F1, It rules it. Even the commentators for F1 make no bones about it.
 
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Oh. And I don't think Mclaren does do team orders, if they do at all, it is not to the same extent that other teams do. More resources and attention might be focused on a particular driver once he forges a lead over his team mate at some point in the season and takes control of the team's chances. I heard Mclaren is straight up directly from the commentators and it seems in line with what you see on the track. Williams was the same back when Ralf and Juan were dueling too.
 

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