Is the EVO and WRX STI sport sedans?

[eiriksmil]

Well, where should I begin?
First of all, the Evo and the WRX STi isn't anything, they are

From fun to the real stuff.
The Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution GSR/RS and the Subaru Impreza WRX STi are definetly in a class of their own, with their rally background and their roadholding abilities, no one can match them. Especially not on the point of integrety. Name another four door saloon with ~300 bhp (I say around, the first Evos, I-II, and the first WRX STis MY92-MY93) had around 230 bhp. Enough, for both chassis and brakes, but nothing quite hefty as todays 280 bhp and 400 Nm.
This is much about definitions. Some might say they are not sporty, some would say they are racecars for the road. Yes, they have had quite a storm in sport (a storm which seams to be falling off, for both of them) and thanks to the WRC cars, we've got two hysterical cars in a class of their own. Mazda wanted to compete with them, but ended up with the Mazdaspeed 6/Mazda 6 MPS. Maybe they didn't even bother fighting against such simple, pre-historic cars? Or did they realise there was no point crashing a 14 year old party? I would bet on the latter.
The Mazdaspeed 6 is clearly a sport sedan, exactly what it's trying to be. More civilised than the Evo/STi, but more sporty than Volvo S40 and Saab 9-3. Yes, I find the Mazdaspeed 6 more sporty than both, yet I fail to understand where Evo and STi goes into that group. They are more than sport sedans, they are homologated rally cars for the road (now more road-biased after the VI, and the Americans have maybe made it an even more useless car, with 900 whp + from both Chris' Black Evo and AMS' Silver Evo).
Interesting and difficult question, but I would say they are something between sport saloons (sedans, whatever) and entry-level supercars. Old school supercars, that is. No flashy luxury, no extreme bragging rights (Veyron, anyone?), but agile, driver-focused entry-level supercars. Much like the old Quattro and Delta (Maybe a tad less sophisticated for the time being? I am thinking comfort now, not in terms of dynamics).
To sum up how they are, the electronics of the Evo and the Scooby actually makes them go faster, not slower like most sedans would do. They are something more, in a class of their own.
If you wish to read more Evo-related stuff, click here, to visit the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution RS/GSR Infothread on a forum dedicated to the Evolution (it's wrong when the 2F2F guys think the Evo and the STi are Supras, they're not, and never will be). To understand the real story about the cars, you also have to find the real/right sources. The infothread I have put together are based on statements and information from Mitsubishi North America, Evo owners, pictures and the book Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, by Brian Long.

Again, a very good and interesting question. Creds to the creator. 👍


Eirik

 

[harrytuttle]

The 300C today is a great car, there really isn't any way around it. But the car feels very "cheap" to me, even when compared to lesser models from other companies.

"Cheap" is the running theme in American cars, and has been as far as I can remember. Honestly, I think you have to go back to the early 1970's to see the last time US car companies made nice interiors compared to Japanese companies, and back to the 1940's to go against the Europeans. Before I put my hands inside the car, the 300C looked reasonably nice, but the materials were just so awful to touch. On closer inspection the assembly was iffy at best, and the details weren't quite what I thought they were. Chrome should be chrome, not plastic.

Either way, the standard sport sedan by which all things are measured continues to be the BMW 3-series. Does that mean that the Evolution and WRX get into that group? I still say no, but it is certainly open to one's own opinion...

I think BMW & Audi were in the same market they were in 25 years ago, I would consider them direct competitors against the WRX/Evo. A more direct evolution of the E30 M3 would be very interesting to see today.

Unfortunately for Fuji Heavy Industries, the STi might outperform the 335Ci, but both BMW and Audi produce much more well-rounded cars. They're better built, better engineered, more comfortable, have vastly superior driving feel (well, for BMW), have so many more options, and then there's the M3 and RS4....

Throw all that non-driver-focused stuff out, and they're much closer. They'd be great competitors in SCCA and Touring Car racing, for example. But I don't think that's what we're comparing here, and the Japanese twins don't meet the minimum requirements for sports club access.

I still like the old-school British interpretation, but then again I've been accused of having leather patches on my elbows even when I'm wearing a T-shirt.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well the "cheapness" of American automobiles seems to be on the decline for Ford and GM, but I can't say the same for DCX. The Caliber and Patriot are both great examples of DCX building attactive models on the outside, but completely dropping the ball on the inside. I seriously have not seen plastic quality that bad in well... I can't think of too many cars that are worse. I mean atleast GM has passed off the looks of quality (the feeling is getting there, almost) with the Cobalt and G5, and the Focus has always been "good enough" for most people.

But even the 300C needs a re-do. The Chevrolet Impala, Buick LaCrosse, and even Ford Fivehundred completely surpass it in terms of build quality, particularly when it comes to interior quality as a whole. Granted we aren't at Caliber leves of despiration here, but it is quite dissapointing for a car that costs over $30K in most situations.

...But even then, quality in a lot of cars have seemed to go down. Often times my "test of quality" involves knocking on the dashboard and door pannels, testing the thickness of the pannels, what type of material they are, is it solid, etc. What I have noticed in recent years is that the plastic is becoming thinner, lighter, and indeed "hollow" in that you can hear the void within. A huge dissapointment was the comparison of a my Mother's '95 Toyota Camry to her friend's '07 model. Quality seemed to be way, way down... The same can be said for models like the Civic, Corolla, Sentra, etc. But interestingly enough, it seems as though American cars are improving by leaps and bounds...

 

[JCE]

Despite its price, the 300C is something I imagine rappers driving. Not soccer moms or white guys who work in a cubicle. To me, it's very much a "luxury" car, no matter how luxurious it really is.

Actually, I see 300's being driven by every race, every age group, and every level of economic class. I see on average at least 2-3 a day at my work (not including my boss') and you'd be surprised at the people buying them--and putting 20"-24" rims on them. To me the Dodge car to get is either the Magnum SRT8 or the top spec Charger. As much as I hate it that Chrysler made the Charger 4 doors the car itself looks a whole lot better than the 300. And frankly the Magnum is a cool car in SRT8 form. I just wouldn't pay that kind of money for a Chrysler product when the better German competition is within reach of the price. And let me go on record saying the CTS-V is such a better all around car than anything Chrysler has...period. I'd rather have the CTS-V than the Viper...even if someone offered to sell me the SRT10 Viper for the same sticker as the CTS-V.

 

[Dave A]

Bear in mind that Wolfe is from the UK, we don't see them that often and I see them more as bling cars too, a good car for thoes than want to stand out from the rest. I don't rate the 300C that much myself though, it's not a rubbish car it just doesn't tickle my taste buds.

 

[JCE]

Even in the UK the 300 is selling decently well enough--but yea I neglected to see his locaiton. I would definately classify the 300C a bling car...luxury car it isn't...bling car it is.

 

[Dave A]

In 2004 there were 2834 Chrysler badged cars in Europe, I can't find any figures that break that up by country though.

 

[1X83Z]

Actually, the V6 300 moves quite well for its weight.

Chrysler quotes 9.0sec 0-60 for the AWD model, which is about 8.8sec for the RWD model. That's not "quite well" (though I agree it's "quite well for its weight"). And since we all sort of agree that "sport sedans" have premium features, how's this: the 3.5-liter model misses tiptronic, dual-zone climate control, automatic air, temperature indicator, automatic headlights, heated seats, steering wheel audio controls, and loads of other "premium" features. In fact, the only premium feature it holds is leather - the lack of acceleration, quantity of basic features, and size, all classify it a "large" rather than "sport" sedan.

 

[a6m5]

I voted "Yes". If it's sporty and is a sedan, I would consider it a sport sedan.

 

[YSSMAN]

Chrysler quotes 9.0sec 0-60 for the AWD model, which is about 8.8sec for the RWD model. That's not "quite well" (though I agree it's "quite well for its weight"). And since we all sort of agree that "sport sedans" have premium features, how's this: the 3.5-liter model misses tiptronic, dual-zone climate control, automatic air, temperature indicator, automatic headlights, heated seats, steering wheel audio controls, and loads of other "premium" features. In fact, the only premium feature it holds is leather - the lack of acceleration, quantity of basic features, and size, all classify it a "large" rather than "sport" sedan.

Well if Chrysler could build a decent V6 that isn't ripped from a pickup and attach it to a manual transmission in the 300, they might be able to call it a "sporty" sedan.

Wait a second? Aren't they owned by Mercedes-Benz? Hmmmm, there is something wrong there...

The 300C could be a very fun car (not to say that it isn't) if they added better features to the car that are pulled out of their M-B siblings. A true manual attached to the 5.7L HEMI would be pure magic if it would happen, and that goes with any of the the LX models.

It does make you wonder though...

If GM does make a manual transmission available on the Impala and Grand Prix, will DCX follow with the LY Charger and 300?

 

[JCE]

DCX needs to get ANY MERC INFLUENCE other than chassis into their saloons. I'd rather have any Merc V8 over the current generation Hemi.

 

[1X83Z]

The 300C could be a very fun car (not to say that it isn't) if they added better features to the car that are pulled out of their M-B siblings. A true manual attached to the 5.7L HEMI would be pure magic if it would happen, and that goes with any of the the LX models.

A true manual attached to a vehicle that size would not sell at all. It wouldn't even dream of selling.

 

[YSSMAN]

I think they could push some out if they could build it "right" just like BMW does with their 5-series. Granted we havent had manual transmissions in cars that big since the '60s in most cases, but the Germans and to some extent the Japanese have been doing it since then.

Watch and see what GM does and I think the market may follow. If GM can get us to buy Pontiac G8s and Chevy Impalas with manuals, I'm sure DCX would atleast try to move a few LY Chargers with the same option.

 

[1X83Z]

I think they could push some out if they could build it "right" just like BMW does with their 5-series.

I'm about to rock your world. Here's Interesting Stat of the Night:

Percentage of current 5-series sales by transmission (not including SMG)
525i:
- manual: 5.1%
- automatic: 94.9%
530i:
- manual: 6.4%
- automatic: 93.6%
550i:
- manual: 18.8%
- automatic: 77.2%
TOTAL:
- manual: 7.8%
- automatic: 92.2%

And that's BMW, which has all the brand prestige, the sporty connotations, the history of building drivers' cars - and 92% of their midsize premium sedans run automatic transmissions - let alone a vehicle the size of the Chrysler 300, and with the Chrysler brand name. As I said - it wouldn't sell.

 

[YSSMAN]

Heres a good question:

Is that for just the American or the world market?

I'm well aware that most Americans would check the slushbox option in most circumstances, but even if only a few thousand were indeed equiped with manuals to meet the needs of that group of consumers every year, they would sell them.

---

Which also brings up an interesting question:

Which brand in the US ships out the most models with manual transmissions?

(Just a guess: Volkswagen!)

 

[eiriksmil]

When talking about Americans and auto/manual, the BMW M5 will now come with a stick, thanks to the Americans. Ironically, eh, that the people ruining transmission, lauching all the time, are getting manuls in one of the finer cars made?


Eirik

 

[toyomatt84]

Well I think it is a title that is open to one's personal definition of "sport sedan," and by my accounts, it is a no. While the cars certainly are sedans in the sense that they have four doors and do without a rear hatch, but I would call them "sport compacts" by days end.

Simply put, the cars aren't big enough. If they were bigger, say the size of the Legacy, sure I'd call them "sport sedans," but limitations placed uppon them by size put them out of a category dominated by models such as the Chrysler 300C, Cadillac CTS-V, BMW 335i, Infiniti G35 6MT, etc.

A sedan is a two/four door car, which carries 4people, that isn't a wagon. That's not a "personal definition", that's a fact. Look it up in the dictionary - "sedan - an enclosed automobile body having two or four doors and seating four or more persons on two full-width seats." Or, you can check out the wikipedia on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan

 

[1X83Z]

Heres a good question:

Is that for just the American or the world market?

The American market - but we were discussing the Chrysler 300 and its sales potential if it had a manual transmission, remember? So there's a reason I quoted statistics from the US market.

Which brand in the US ships out the most models with manual transmissions?

(Just a guess: Volkswagen!)

I'm not sure in total numbers. Here's the breakdown on percentage of Volkswagen models with manual transmissions:

Golf (04):
- manual: 50.0%
- automatic: 50.0%
GTI (04):
- manual: 79.9%
- automatic: 20.1%
Jetta (06):
- manual: 25.2%
- automatic: 74.8%
New Beetle (05):
- manual: 21.3%
- automatic: 78.7%
Passat (06):
- manual: 12.3% (16.5% 2.0T; 0% 3.6)
- automatic: 87.7% (83.5% 2.0T; 100% 3.6)

Phaeton and Touareg are automatic-only.

 

[YSSMAN]

Interesting...

It always seems like a majority of Volkswagens I see here in Grand Rapids, and generally Michigan, have manual transmissions.

 

[harrytuttle]

...But even then, quality in a lot of cars have seemed to go down. Often times my "test of quality" involves knocking on the dashboard and door pannels, testing the thickness of the pannels, what type of material they are, is it solid, etc. What I have noticed in recent years is that the plastic is becoming thinner, lighter, and indeed "hollow" in that you can hear the void within. A huge dissapointment was the comparison of a my Mother's '95 Toyota Camry to her friend's '07 model. Quality seemed to be way, way down... The same can be said for models like the Civic, Corolla, Sentra, etc. But interestingly enough, it seems as though American cars are improving by leaps and bounds...

Not all cars are improving. The biggest surprise for me was the Mustang. It seemed to be very well put together on the outside. Consistent-sized gaps all around, panels that don't sound like a tin can, the finish even felt a bit like thick plastic (run your hand along the door of any freshly-cleaned BMW to see what I mean). But inside it's a dark cavern of recycled plastic. Thin, hollow, dash panels; the car even sounded a bit echoey when the door was closed.

I still find all American cars a bit lacking in interior quality. While I have yet to see something fall apart on a 10-year-old USDM car, it's either a hideous design (Pontiac) or made from re-formed soda bottles (Ford). Sometimes it's like the molds weren't done right (Saturn), with nasty seams & ridges on individual trim pieces.

In general, any market's ability to create quality products comes and goes. Right now, the US is improving and Japan is slipping ever so slightly. It was 100% reversed 30 years ago, and could reverse itself again in the future.

The 300C could be a very fun car (not to say that it isn't) if they added better features to the car that are pulled out of their M-B siblings. A true manual attached to the 5.7L HEMI would be pure magic if it would happen, and that goes with any of the the LX models.

A 300C with a manual transmission won't sell because that's not the market the rest of the car is aimed at: mid-luxury sedans, built for cruising. A 300C with a manual transmission is what the Charger should have been.

 

[YSSMAN]

True a Charger R/T with a stick is a better idea, but I think they could sell a few 300Cs with the same option. Granted "most people" wouldn't go for it, but there are some out there who would.

 

[harrytuttle]

True a Charger R/T with a stick is a better idea, but I think they could sell a few 300Cs with the same option. Granted "most people" wouldn't go for it, but there are some out there who would.

Yeah, that's true. After all, the US is the market that convinced BMW to offer the 2006 M5 with a manual transmission, regardless of how few will buy it.

Was there any technical reason the 300C platform couldn't be sold with a self-shifter? Or was it just marketing?

 

[1X83Z]

True a Charger R/T with a stick is a better idea, but I think they could sell a few 300Cs with the same option. Granted "most people" wouldn't go for it, but there are some out there who would.

Yeah - but not enough to justify the cost of developing the transmission. Simple economics!

 

[YSSMAN]

Yeah, that's true. After all, the US is the market that convinced BMW to offer the 2006 M5 with a manual transmission, regardless of how few will buy it.

Was there any technical reason the 300C platform couldn't be sold with a self-shifter? Or was it just marketing?

I'm not certain about that. Given that the 300C's LX-chassis is derrived from the previous-generation E-Class chassis, I would assume there would be a way to shoehorn a manual transmission in there... The question becomes, where are they going to get it from?

DCX, if I remember correctly, sells the Ram 1500 with the same 5.7L HEMI and a 6-speed manual, and that theoretically could squeze into the car... Or I'm sure a T56 could be thrown in there quite easily as well. But to have it all work, you would have to consult an engineer...

Money is just that, money. Chrysler wanted to get the car out to the public the way that they would want it, and thus they dropped in the Mercedes-sourced 5-speed Automatic with "Auto-Stick" shifting.

 

[niky]

Nice side-discussion...

Too bad automakers, commuters and non-car-people the world over seem dead-set on shoving automatic transmissions down our throats.

The price penalty of an automatic and the ease of use/misuse make it a "luxury" item, and it pisses me off immensely that many car models and trims can't be bought in anything else here, any more.

Do I love the new Focus and Mazda3? Why, yes. Would I buy one? Hell no... no sticks available... grrrrrrr...

----

RE: Sports sedans -

My definition of sports sedans: They can go. They can handle. Period. Some emphasis on "go", more emphasis on "handle".

None of this stuff about luxury, leather and prestige... that would just make them luxury sports sedans, right? If it were all about power, they'd be muscle cars... or grand tourers.

To note, the current Evo hardly rates as compact compared to the outgoing M3. Sure, the Evo is slightly smaller, but it's a heavy bugger for a compact, has more rear-seat space than a 3-series (but doesn't everything?) and it's a sedan. Shouldn't that settle it?