Israel - Palestine discussion thread

After only 5 weeks of bombardment, the Arab nations and Iran have leapt into action to demand that Israel stop bombing Gaza.

Iran, of course, have come up with a genius 10 point plan, including 'arming Palestine', while calling for an immediate ceasefire - it's not clear if they mean that both sides should stop firing, or if just Israel...

No mention of hostages. Plenty of talk of US aggression though, and some rather vile praise for Hamas. Meanwhile, Hamas continue to fire rockets in to Israel and hold both Israeli and Gazan civilians as human shields.

No doubt the Arab nations will hold another talking shop within the next month or so, and tell us all again how terrible everyone but Hamas is.

Don't get me wrong - I think Israel need to do far, far more to help alleviate the suffering of people in Gaza, but it's frankly appalling that certain Arab nations can entertain and even endorse Iran's 'plan' after Iran openly praised Hamas, and, far from advocating for peace, are actually calling for Hamas to be re-armed. :rolleyes:
 
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Famine
More likely because it's yet to air on a channel over here.
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Ah. It seems that HBO streams it over here.

In between edit!

It's an HBO show so it make sense that they stream it.

Still weird though. And stupid. Geolocking is stupid.
 
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Touring Mars
it's frankly appalling that the Arab nations can actually praise Hamas, and, far from advocating for peace, are actually calling for Hamas to be re-armed. :rolleyes:
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Can you name one? Did you just confuse Iran with Arab countries?

Liquid
Have they opened their borders to accept Palestinian refugees yet?
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Why would people be forced to vacate their lands and homes? If we're doing that, why don't you take back Israelis? I hear Hitler's not around anymore.
 
R3V
Can you name one? Did you just confuse Iran with Arab countries?


Why would people be forced to vacate their lands and homes? If we're doing that, why don't you take back Israelis? I hear Hitler's not around anymore.
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If you are forcing out all Israelis, then does that include all of the Jews that were driven out of their homes in the Middle East outside of Israel as a result of the 1948 war? Do they get to go back to their old homes and live peacefully?
 
Blitz24
If you are forcing out all Israelis, then does that include all of the Jews that were driven out of their homes in the Middle East outside of Israel as a result of the 1948 war? Do they get to go back to their old homes and live peacefully?
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I'm not the one suggesting anybody should be forced out.
 
@Danoff thanks for the heads up about John Oliver - having watched this week's episode I think he does a terrific job of demonstrating why Hamas doesn't equal Palestinian citizens any more than Netanyahu and Likud represent the will of most Israelis. Both parties have deliberately derailed the peace process in the pursuit of control and power and at the cost of so many lives. It's a must watch even if we in the UK can't watch it yet.
 
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R3V
Can you name one?
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Countries who supported Iran's proposals include Syria, Algeria, Tunisia, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Libya and Yemen, but they have at least not gone as far as Iran in explicitly naming or praising Hamas directly.

Did you just confuse Iran with Arab countries?
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Yes, my bad. I should have said the states that attended the emergency summit in Saudi Arabia last week where Iran openly praised Hamas and put forward their proposals, which include arming Hamas.

@Danoff I'll look out for the John Oliver bit when it becomes available here.
 
Touring Mars
Countries who supported Iran's proposals include Syria, Algeria, Tunisia, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Libya and Yemen, but they have at least not gone as far as Iran in explicitly naming or praising Hamas directly.

Yes, my bad. I should have said the states that attended the emergency summit in Saudi Arabia last week where Iran openly praised Hamas and put forward their proposals, which include arming Hamas.

@Danoff I'll look out for the John Oliver bit when it becomes available here.
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Uhh that's not what you said but okay. Can you at least edit your original post with a clarification at the end? Here's what you said:

Touring Mars
but it's frankly appalling that the Arab nations can actually praise Hamas, and, far from advocating for peace, are actually calling for Hamas to be re-armed. :rolleyes:
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That is at best, a very serious accusation. At worst, a Freudian slip and you just lump Iran, Arabs and Hamas all as one in your head. "Muslims bad, Muslims terrorists".
 
I flew a family of 9 people from Teterboro NJ to Dulles in DC today and it was an absolute scheduling nightmare. Apparently even my company had no idea what was going to happen. Teterboro had no idea, Dulles kind of had an idea but they’re good, and the FBOs at Dulles - and I imagine the entire city - had to resort to desperate measures. There were literally hundreds of private jets on the ground at Dulles at the same time.

My company has an extra-private FBO at Teterboro and at least five of our tails alone left there - attempted to leave there - at exactly the same time. NetJets also has an FBO there, as well as others serving other private ops. It took me 30+ minutes to take off after starting engines at Teterboro, an airport that doesn’t offer any airline service at all. The flight route was fine and we actually got our altitude of only 20,000 but we were speed restricted to 250 knots the entire time where normally we’d be doing 300. Some jets behind us were getting stuffed down at 8000 feet, an altitude where jet engines churn through fuel.

Once we landed we sat another 30 minutes waiting for a parking spot. There are three FBOs at Dulles and we chose Signature - Signature’s main ramp was already full, their remote ramp was already full, they had resorted to parking planes on an airline maintenance ramp near the gates but that was also full, so we ended up parking on a run-up ramp which was a 10+ minute van ride from the FBO inside the airport property. All to drop off an insanely rich family to enjoy two hours of a pro-Israel rally, then come back and go home to Teterboro. I literally mean hundreds of private jets and turboprops from all over the country, packed to the gills with people who can afford that. Signature says it was their biggest operation in history, anywhere, ever, and my captain of 20+ years had never seen anything like it. By the time we got back we were nearly two hours behind schedule on a day with the nicest VFR weather you could ask for.

What the hell.
 
R3V
Uhh that's not what you said but okay. Can you at least edit your original post with a clarification at the end? Here's what you said:
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I admited the error in my next post, but I've amended my post in any case.

If you care to read through this thread in more detail, you will see that I absolutely do not equate all Muslims to Hamas - now THAT is a very serious (and personal) accusation which I really do not care for, and it is demonstrably false, as you can see from my previous posts on the matter in this thread.

The fact is, however, that there are plenty of Arab people and even leaders who wish to see Hamas and other anti-Israeli groups to be armed - the summit in Riyadh demonstrated this quite clearly as several Arab nations endorsed Iran's 'plan', though they did at least stop short of openly praising Hamas like Iran have done. However, they also neglected to criticise Hamas for their murderous assault on Israel, which is shocking.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again - but for as long as Hamas and other militant groups advocate for the extermination of Jews, there won't be peace for those who are governed by such vile ideology. And as long as powerful regional players such as Iran (and their backers) fund and support groups like Hamas, then there is little chance for lasting peace in the region.

For their part, Israel must also do more - alot more - to encourage peace, and that means a credible and fair plan for a viable Palestinian state. For so long as Israel is governed by people who don't accept this, then Israelis will likely not live in peace either. And yes, countries that back Israel such as the US and the UK, need to remind Israel at every opportunity (and to be fair, they do) that Palestinians must be part of the solution and their rights must be respected.

Unfortunately, however, right now the Palestinian people are caught between a disgusting and barbarous Hamas regime that actively wants them to suffer and die in order to weaken the standing of their opponents, and an Israeli regime that has run out of patience with Hamas and who have scant regard for the safety of innocent Palestinians.
 
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Touring Mars
I admited the error in my next post,
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That's great but you never know when someone's going to stop scrolling. They could read your original post, think it's factual, stop, then go spread it around. It's quite a serious thing to say and have someone believe it to be true. Even accidentally.
Touring Mars
but I've amended my post in any case.
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Thanks.
Touring Mars
The fact is, however, that there are plenty of Arab people and even leaders who wish to see Hamas and other anti-Israeli groups to be armed
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Just as there's plenty of Israelis who wish to see all Arabs dead. Just as there's plenty of Americans who wish to see all non-whites non-Christians dead. There's crazy and evil people everywhere. Be careful which voices you amplify and which ones you leave out.
Touring Mars
However, they also neglected to criticise Hamas for their murderous assault on Israel
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I don't want to get sidelined by the Hamas nonsense, but can I ask something? Have you ever wondered why? Do you want to take any guess other than thinking they're terrorists or Jew haters who want to see civilians dead?

Touring Mars
Unfortunately, however, right now the Palestinian people are caught between a disgusting and barbarous Hamas regime that actively wants them to suffer and die in order to weaken the standing of their opponents, and an Israeli regime that has run out of patience with Hamas and who have scant regard for the safety of innocent Palestinians frothes at the mouth at any given opportunity to "defend itself" by doing some ethnic cleansing for more land.
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FTFY.
 
R3V
I don't want to get sidelined by the Hamas nonsense, but can I ask something? Have you ever wondered why? Do you want to take any guess other than thinking they're terrorists or Jew haters who want to see civilians dead?
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I think very few people see Israel, particularly the current Netanyahu regime, as entirely innocent in provoking this conflict, but the fact remains that operation Al-aqsa flood, as it's been called, was aimed at killing as many civilians as possible to provoke a return invasion by Israel. It doesn't matter which side you are looking at it from, that's text book terrorism, plain and simple.

They weren't trying to reclaim 'stolen' land, they weren't specifically targeting military or police presence. They were simply murdering civilian men, women and children.

As much as there has been long standing sympathy for the plight of the general Palastinian populance within much of the western civilian population, Hamas is never going to be seen as anything other than terrorists because they've never done anything other than act like terrorists.
 
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R3V
Have you ever wondered why? Do you want to take any guess other than thinking they're terrorists or Jew haters who want to see civilians dead?
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Of course, and I've always accepted that the Palestinian cause and their grievances against Israel are justified, but I've never accepted that murderous violence (on either side) is acceptable.

The Palestinian cause is legitimate, but Hamas lost any shred of credibility they may have once had by doing what they did on October 7th. Cutting a pregnant woman's belly open with a knife; beheading people; throwing hand grenades at children; raping and murdering children; need I go on? It is not so much that Hamas attacked Israel - but that instead of attacking the IDF (as they ridiculously still claim were the sole targets/victims), they chose to commit so many disgusting atrocities with the sole intent of causing Israeli and international outrage (with the obvious expection of nations who refused to condemn them).

Israel, however, have treated the Palestinians abysmally, and that is why, as @TheCracker says above, there is genuine and deep sympathy for the Palestinians throughout the western world, but committing disgusting atrocities against innocent people like Hamas have done - as is consistent with their ideology - has provoked an all-out war against them and the IDF. Tragically, Hamas' flagrant (and very deliberate) disregard of the safety of the people of Gaza has all but guaranteed horrific consequences for innocent people in Gaza.

The big question is who green lighted Hamas' attack. It is almost a certainty that Iran, probably with Russian backing, are the ones who figured that it was time to throw the people of Gaza to the lions, and order an atrocity so appalling and repulsive, that the hated enemies (for Iran its Israel and for Russia, it's the West) are compelled to act, and act in such a way as to inflame sensitivities throughout the region.

It's sad and reprehensible that the West and Israel have failed to meet the Palestinians half way on a peaceful settlement. But, it is unforgivable and outrageous that Hamas and their controllers are deliberately sacrificing the people of Gaza for their own nefarious political ends.
 
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TheCracker
was aimed at killing as many civilians as possible
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That's not the narrative they spread here. Believe it or not, they say exactly the same thing Israel is saying. "Palestine has the right defend itself" and they only targeted the military on October 7th. They claim the civilians deaths (which they allege were few) were caused some "crazy people" from within Gaza who took advantage of the border being open for hours, got inside and went to town.

In case it's not clear, I'm not assigning any truth value to what they say, nor am I defending them. If I had a magic wand I'd make them and any other Iran puppet disappear. I'm just telling you what some people are being fed here on social media.

Touring Mars
but I've never accepted that murderous violence (on either side) is acceptable
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See above. Most Arabs you'll meet who don't "condemn Hamas", who aren't as many as you think anyway, are operating with a completely different set of facts. What makes Hamas' claims ring true is Israel's long history of crying wolf, exaggerating civilian deaths and flat out lying about some of the atrocities they've committed. It becomes to some, a matter of credibility. Israel has none in the Arab world. Not with Iran's sheeple or the average person.

In any case, the Palestinian suffering pre-dates Hamas. There's no reason to make keep shifting the focus to the latest terrorist attack.

Anyway If it makes you feel better:

www.bbc.com

Saudi prince slams Hamas, Israel and the West

Prince Turki al-Faisal's comments are a rare Arab voice of criticism of Hamas's actions.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Other than Iran's puppet regimes, nobody really likes Hamas.

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more:
www.washingtoninstitute.org

Arab Critique and Condemnation of Hamas Before October 7, 2023

For years, Hamas was lambasted by leading Arab voices as a terrorist group that worked against Palestinian interests. And then October 7 happened.
www.washingtoninstitute.org www.washingtoninstitute.org
 
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www.usatoday.com

Hostages had white flag when mistakenly killed by Israeli military, reports say: Updates

Questions swirled Saturday about how Israel's military mistakenly identified three hostages as threats, shooting and killing them.
www.usatoday.com
Mad Men Not Great Bob GIF
 
Can I just say something here? I think it's so damn stupid to market Israel as a "save haven" for Jews. I often say half-jokingly, we already have a state - it's called New York. But allow me to ask in earnest: which nation needs the Iron Dome? Which nations needs every residence to have a "safe room" to hide from terrorists? Which nation has an incompetent military that shoots not one, not two, but three hostages they were sent to rescue?

I support Israel for various reasons, such as the fact that a cousin that I particularly admire lives there, alongside her respective family. Or the fact that they offer us some neat military tech, like how IAI helped to develop the helmet used for the F-35, or how IWI partially developed the iconic Desert Eagle. Not to mention their egalitarian military, which includes the mostly-women Caracal Battalion, or the neurodivergent makeup of Unit 9900.

But both Bibi and Hamas must go. I would hope that this is not a controversial opinion. Israel was never my ostensible homeland - it's always been the United States of America, as my ancestors arrived here over a century ago. Or maybe this is just part of my disillusionment of Judaism that's been occurring my entire life. I always loathed going to synagogue - and yet, I could never see myself converting. I like being associated with Steven Spielberg, Natalie Portman, Erik "Harry Houdini" Weisz, and David Lee Roth - not to mention over a fifth of Nobel Prize laureates, among other profoundly erudite folk.

(And @Blitz24, I'd like to formally apologize for my earlier unhinged sentiments ITT - they were incredibly daft, even by my standards.)

However, I think this geopolitical aspect of Judaism - being fused to the relatively contemporary nation of Israel - should be challenged and questioned within reason. Those Ivy League kids chanting for Israel to be dismantled? Yeah, they're delusional at best. But I get the idea that Judaism should be something more transcendent and sublime. Something, as the late Holocaust survivor Rabbi Isidore Greengrass mentioned, is truly indestructible - though by using that word he was more specifically referring to how Judaism survived the Holocaust. But how "indestructible" is a religion when it's tied to a nation that can have its borders redrawn - and has?
 
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